Why weren't pre patch vDSA and vMA weapons upgraded to perfected?

Dojohoda · June 2020

As far as I have read, the only reason given to us is they say these weapons are new. I'm skeptical because typically when gear is changed our gear reflects the changes. I suppose that since our previously classified vet arena weapons still exist in the game something had to be called new. The problem for us who have the weapons is that we had vet weapons but now we have normal weapons. While my weapons do not have the bonus, the fact that I ran vet content for them did not change. In my opinion the weapons should have been upgraded.

Here is the announcement thread which is currently 37 pages long with the focus being mainly on customer dissatisfaction. The thread is still open for comments as of this writing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/

Casul · June 2020

If you farmed the weapons pre patch, you are the minority and you do not matter.

The702Guy · June 2020

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system

I farmed forthe VET level weapon not the normal weapon, I spent almost 20 runs to get the vet level weapon I wanted and now I have the normal level one. Now i have to go back and refarm the vet level weapon again. This is the equivalent of ZoS buffing a set and making everybody re-farm the same set. Technically you didn't farm for the buffed version. That's terrible logic.

PizzaCat82 · June 2020

They wanted you to have a reason to do VMA 20 more times.

Personally I'm going to wait unil there's a double drop event.

mavfin · June 2020

No need to rehash this thread again. There's a huge one or two already if you look.

idk · June 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

I remember when the Clockwork city patch came out and zos nerfed our "perfected" versions of the vMA and vDSA weapons because of power creep. Now they added back some buffs and want us to do the same old unchanged content again to get weapons that are hopefully as strong as they were before the first nerf. And I bet Zos nerfs arena weapons again later on to combat power creep and we go through the same cycle over and over because spray painting a busted car is easier than fixing the engine. Also, rip the Asylum weapons. I agree that the destro staff's glitch should've been fixed, but it should've been done without tossing in an additional cornholing with no lube.

They. Were. Not. Nerfed. With. That. Change.

They changed it from a unique enchantment, to a set bonus. You could then enchant the weapon with a weapon damage glyph AND IT WAS MORE POWERFUL THAN BEFORE!!!! (For the Bow and Inferno staff at least)

Why this myth continues to perpetuate is shocking.

This is absolutely correct. The change a couple years ago was very much improvement and was demonstrated by people who actually took the time to do the math and test it out.. The new weapons are also an improvement over both the regular vMA and Master weapons as well as the design before they changed it to where we could choose our own enchantment.

MashmalloMan · June 2020

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say. Developers are not the bad guys, usually the people in suits are. These are people like you and me, gamers who went to school to learn and create games they would want to play, but they're led and funded by corporate suits.

As usual, money and bad leadership decisions take control. I will not blame the developers, but I will blame Rich and I'm not going to let it go. They've completely put this game in a different place for me, where I no longer give ZOS's decisions the benefit of the doubt.

Whether you're one of the rare few that agreed with this decision or the countless veteran players who spent upwards of 30-50 runs getting the equipment they needed, the decision was NOT consumer friendly.

30-50 runs is actually generously low considering transmutation hasn't been around forever. I use to play VMA once-twice a day for the first year just trying to collect everything in the best trait.

Since the update, I spent the first week doing it back to back trying to get a 2H VMA Axe, 30 runs or so, best score I've ever got is down to 35 minutes, 570k I think, and I no longer have the patience. I'm just going to wait for a double drop event.

I'd consider the runs pretty quick for me, for players that struggle, VMA can be a complete nightmare putting them off from the game entirely. Is it really worth all this trouble? I've already wasted probably 15-20h of my life on content I bought 5 years ago for equipment I've already obtained. This isn't even mentioning how long it takes to farm transmute crystals, gold or tempers to get them to a place I want.

So yeah, I will not forget this Rich. Everytime I see you in interviews, presentations or at any point related to a future game you're remotely in charge of, I'll remember how you put your own feelings and pride above the larger playerbase's dissapointment in your awful decision.

idk · June 2020

Dojohoda wrote: »

As far as I have read, the only reason given to us is they say these weapons are new. I'm skeptical because typically when gear is changed our gear reflects the changes. I suppose that since our previously classified vet arena weapons still exist in the game something had to be called new. The problem for us who have the weapons is that we had vet weapons but now we have normal weapons. While my weapons do not have the bonus, the fact that I ran vet content for them did not change. In my opinion the weapons should have been upgraded.

Here is the announcement thread which is currently 37 pages long with the focus being mainly on customer dissatisfaction. The thread is still open for comments as of this writing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

idk · June 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.

This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.

zvavi · June 2020

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

idk · June 2020

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.

MashmalloMan · June 2020

idk wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

As far as I have read, the only reason given to us is they say these weapons are new. I'm skeptical because typically when gear is changed our gear reflects the changes. I suppose that since our previously classified vet arena weapons still exist in the game something had to be called new. The problem for us who have the weapons is that we had vet weapons but now we have normal weapons. While my weapons do not have the bonus, the fact that I ran vet content for them did not change. In my opinion the weapons should have been upgraded.

Here is the announcement thread which is currently 37 pages long with the focus being mainly on customer dissatisfaction. The thread is still open for comments as of this writing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

It's nowhere close to "apples and oranges". The content is the exact same, but I'm not going to bother arguing with you in the hopes of changing your mind because lets be honest, it won't. Whether you try to justify it or not by saying they're "new" like Rich, it was a bad decision towards their consumer base which makes it the wrong decision. There is no technical issue they couldn't circumvent, especially when they're is evidence of it in the past, that was never the problem.

Upgrading them wouldn't of been a handout either, everyone earned them the same the day before the patch and they'll earn the "new" ones the same after the patch. Frankly no one is complaining about them dropping in normal for players that can't complete vet, that was a good decision that helps close some of the skill gap.

Personally, I really like their pve equipment balance by offering small stat bonuses to perfected level gear, a good player using imperfected gear vs perfected gear will only see a rise of maybe 1-3% dps, if that.

While I'm not in the camp that thinks the weapons were "nerfed" by removing the stat bonus of the past because being able to add enchantments was much more powerful which people seem to forget. It shows exactly how they're capable of changing the entire functionality of the weapon, not just the tooltip, they even went as far as mailing people replacements for equipment they discontinued.

This decision creates the first precident for future equipment changes in a negative way. You know that set you got? Well we just nerfed it a patch ago, hoping you forgot, next patch we're going to release a buffed version with an extra stat line as "perfected". Oh and your old equipment, yeah it no longer drops in the content you farmed it for, thats where you'll find this "new", better version.

This was apparently, purely Rich's decision and his choice to be unwaveringly stubborn about it, despite the huge backlash shows his character in the face of criticism. Whether you're wrong or everyone else is wrong, doesn't matter really. The end result hurt player retention and the larger perception of their company. Are they going to earn more money fromt this? No. Are they going to provide more enjoyment for the players that already beat the content? No. So it was the wrong decision to make.

It doesn't matter too much to me or even you I'm assuming because we're willing to farm it again, I love the game enough that it's managed to keep me around despite some awful decisions and a large list of dissapointments, but Rich showed some of his true colours, and I won't forget that. Nor will a ton of other players that were already on the fence. For them, this could of been the nail in the coffin.

It's the same reason I don't touch games made by EA, they've done enough to burn all their bridges, I no longer care what they do to be consumer friendly. It's all fake.

zvavi · June 2020

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.

I ain't gonna argue, because they did change set names in the past. Also buffed things in the past. As it stands vMA rewards got buffed and renamed, while nMA got new additional rewards. As I said earlier, it is point of view thing.

I mean, I am fine with farming vMA again, I will be honest, but thing is, ESO was always about horizontal gear progression, and not linear. It was one of it's selling points. What stops them from highering gear cap when they rework CP? Nothing really (other than the backlash). Theoretically nobody is "losing strength" just everyone will be able to farm new and better gear. It is essentially they same as what they are doing now, just in a much much bigger volume. Ye sure, if it was any other mmo, that has linear gear progression, all arguments about upgrading weapons are void. But here? In ESO? There is a reason they stopped highering gear cap during v16 days.

So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.

mairwen85 · June 2020

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.

I ain't gonna argue, because they did change set names in the past. Also buffed things in the past. As it stands vMA rewards got buffed and renamed, while nMA got new additional rewards. As I said earlier, it is point of view thing.

I mean, I am fine with farming vMA again, I will be honest, but thing is, ESO was always about horizontal gear progression, and not linear. It was one of it's selling points. What stops them from highering gear cap when they rework CP? Nothing really (other than the backlash). Theoretically nobody is "losing strength" just everyone will be able to farm new and better gear. It is essentially they same as what they are doing now, just in a much much bigger volume. Ye sure, if it was any other mmo, that has linear gear progression, all arguments about upgrading weapons are void. But here? In ESO? There is a reason they stopped highering gear cap during v16 days.

So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.

I don't know how many times I've said the same thing. It's tiresome now to keep going over it now. All that's left to say is that it doesn't bode well for the future at all.

zvavi · June 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Personally, I really like their pve equipment balance by offering small stat bonuses to perfected level gear, a good player using imperfected gear vs perfected gear will only see a rise of maybe 1-3% dps, if that.

Try more like 0.1%-0.3%, for vMA inferno and bow, and I think I am giving the perfected versions too much credit. Especially the inferno.

Haquor · June 2020

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system

Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.

That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.

Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.

A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.

MashmalloMan · June 2020

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.

This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.

Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".

theDTV wrote: »

10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?

A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337

MashmalloMan · June 2020

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.

So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.

Exactly. But hey, if that decision comes to pass in the future, we at least know there is a few people that will justify ZOS's decisions.

ZOS: "We're releasing CP 180 gear that's already available from the content you know and love."

Playerbase: "But what about our CP 160 gear, the content hasn't changed. You just raised the scaling level cap, will you upgrade our equipment?"

ZOS: "NO, you're gear is exactly the same, this new gear is just stronger. Farm it if you want to earn more power, it's not completely necessary! Instead of a 2 piece giving 129 weapon damage, these give 140. It's barely noticable"

Can someone remind me how many people use CP 150 gear again? Oh wait.. it's complete decon trash. All of it. You know that bank you have, the chests you have in your house, maybe the alt characters you geared, all of that gear you collected over 6 years. All of it, is now slightly weaker versions than max level gear.

All I have to say is.. I do not look forward to the CP rework in the future if this is the viewpoint we can expect from ZOS.

tmbrinks · June 2020

Haquor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system

Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.

That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.

Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.

A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.

sigh... another post with the same disingenuous argument

Haquor · June 2020

tmbrinks wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system

Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.

That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.

Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.

A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.

sigh... another post with the same disingenuous argument

In what way is it disingenuous?

MashmalloMan · June 2020

Haquor wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system

Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.

That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.

Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.

A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.

sigh... another post with the same disingenuous argument

In what way is it disingenuous?

They're relating your comment to the fact that their is a narrative surrounding the older vma weapons when they has stat bumps. They were actually weaker than the change to set bonuses over enchantments, since enchantments + the set bonus is much stronger than the set bonus (as an enchant) + a static stat bonus. There was a similar outrage at the time, but the trade was beneficial. Nothing was really taken from us.

I read your comment differently though, the "nerfed versions" we're using now, relates to the fact that our vma weapons are now considered normal weapons. Thats a nerf. Spin it anyway you want, the "new" items aren't new, the contents the same.

idk · June 2020

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.

I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.

I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.

Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.

It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.

I ain't gonna argue, because they did change set names in the past. Also buffed things in the past. As it stands vMA rewards got buffed and renamed, while nMA got new additional rewards. As I said earlier, it is point of view thing.

I mean, I am fine with farming vMA again, I will be honest, but thing is, ESO was always about horizontal gear progression, and not linear. It was one of it's selling points. What stops them from highering gear cap when they rework CP? Nothing really (other than the backlash). Theoretically nobody is "losing strength" just everyone will be able to farm new and better gear. It is essentially they same as what they are doing now, just in a much much bigger volume. Ye sure, if it was any other mmo, that has linear gear progression, all arguments about upgrading weapons are void. But here? In ESO? There is a reason they stopped highering gear cap during v16 days.

So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.

Not sure what "not changing set names in the past" has to do with this as Zos added a new weapon. They merely added a perfected version of the original Maelstrom weapon.

Also, this is horizontal gear progression as it has always been in Zos. Look at the original trial gear. For the most part, each new trial has brought gear that is better than the previous year's trial (with one exception). Each year we get other sets that outperform previous sets. It is part of the power creep we have experienced over the years and it is a stretch of the imagination to suggest this new weapon is the blame for Zos possibly increasing as Zos has said about two years ago they do plan to increase the gear cap eventually.

idk · June 2020

MashmalloMan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.

This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.

Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".

theDTV wrote: »

10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?

A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337

I did not say or even suggest Rich did not take responsibility for the decision. In the end, nothing happens without Matt Firor or Rich's explicit or implicit approval All the other devs do what Matt and Rich tell them to or approve.

Repeating what I did say is, we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this. That quote you provided offers no insight into the discussions that occurred within Zos.

mairwen85 · June 2020

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.

This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.

Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".

theDTV wrote: »

10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?

A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337

I did not say or even suggest Rich did not take responsibility for the decision. In the end, nothing happens without Matt Firor or Rich's explicit or implicit approval All the other devs do what Matt and Rich tell them to or approve.

Repeating what I did say is, we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this. That quote you provided offers no insight into the discussions that occurred within Zos.

The quote itself is Rich taking ownership of the choice, and that is all. But in context it is implied it was ultimately his decision, and he made it based on reasons not provided. On that, I agree with you. What bothers me is that it seems to be without reason, and despite requests for specifics, none has been offered. Now, on the one hand, they don't have to, they are under no obligation to provide transparency for any decisions they make wrt to the game, which is their intellectual property after all. However, given that this change marks a new precedent and complete paradigm shift in how gear and content are related in this game, and horizontal progression as established, I do feel we are owed some insight into whether we can expect more of such implementations, and what criteria identify gear and content rewards for these choices--likewise, if this is a one off, unique change, why? What specifically lead to dsa and vma weapons being handled differently? I for one would appreciate forewarning with respect to past and future investment of my time and effort.

idk · June 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.

This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.

Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".

theDTV wrote: »

10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?

A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337

I did not say or even suggest Rich did not take responsibility for the decision. In the end, nothing happens without Matt Firor or Rich's explicit or implicit approval All the other devs do what Matt and Rich tell them to or approve.

Repeating what I did say is, we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this. That quote you provided offers no insight into the discussions that occurred within Zos.

The quote itself is Rich taking ownership of the choice, and that is all. But in context it is implied it was ultimately his decision, and he made it based on reasons not provided. On that, I agree with you. What bothers me is that it seems to be without reason, and despite requests for specifics, none has been offered. Now, on the one hand, they don't have to, they are under no obligation to provide transparency for any decisions they make wrt to the game, which is their intellectual property after all. However, given that this change marks a new precedent and complete paradigm shift in how gear and content are related in this game, and horizontal progression as established, I do feel we are owed some insight into whether we can expect more of such implementations, and what criteria identify gear and content rewards for these choices--likewise, if this is a one off, unique change, why? What specifically lead to dsa and vma weapons being handled differently? I for one would appreciate forewarning with respect to past and future investment of my time and effort.

1. Of course, he should take responsibility. As I said, and you seem to agree, it is the "buck stops here" leadership. Of course, they are not under obligation to tell us about their discussions. It is really none of our business and would be bad to sow discourse.

2. Rich provided his reasoning. People argued with him and he offered them. You merely disagree.

3. There is really no area that I expect Zos to retroactively add "perfected" gear. Craglorn trial gear is not very good even if they increased the buff a little. Pretty much the only gear desirable gear that comes out of them is not the trial gear.

4. What specifically leads to DSA and vMA being handled differently? It has not. This is a unique situation. Zos has never retroactively added new gear to an instance like this.

5. We received forewarning. We received as a forewarning as one should expect. The first time Zos increased the level cap was less than 2 months after the game went live and I am pretty sure we received less warning, or at least the same warning, as we did that these weapons were being added. Zos has stated they will raid the gear cap again and I doubt we get much more warning than a PTS cycle. Yes, it would be nice to get more of a heads up, but we have only one choice when it comes to that.

mairwen85 · June 2020

You contradict yourself in point 4.

It is a unique situation, therefore handled differently to the majority of gear changes. I believe you may have misread my post. My question was to why that was case. What makes it unique? The fact that there is no grounds for that decision in the established norms of the game, means this change has no precedence, so it must have had unique criteria to be the case that breaks the rule. Retroactive modification of existing items, not content is not new. Retroactively replacing rewards is. We will disagree on this point as to what is actually new in this scenario, but we both agree it is a new paradigm... I just believe it is important to know how much of my time has been or will be invested in such 'unique' changes and what that means for future content.

Mitrenga · June 2020

Because the management says so.

tim99 · June 2020

this decision broke a lot for me as well. the first time i think i had to run more than 100 times to get a sharpened staff.
and i wont forgive that decision. get over it and continue, sure. grind them again, propably yes... but not forgive and forget.
i know they dont care about, but the crown store was closed for me at the minute i got notice of it.

and i still have a storage-only char (mule?) which holds 140+ arena weapons from dsa and msa, collected over the years, a lot of them upgraded to gold (just because i'm stupid) and I just haven't had the heart to deconstruct them, but it's basically the only thing you can do with it now.

mairwen85 · June 2020

tim99 wrote: »

this decision broke a lot for me as well. the first time i think i had to run more than 100 times to get a sharpened staff.
and i wont forgive that decision. get over it and continue, sure. grind them again, propably yes... but not forgive and forget.
i know they dont care about, but the crown store was closed for me at the minute i got notice of it.

and i still have a storage-only char (mule?) which holds 140+ arena weapons from dsa and msa, collected over the years, a lot of them upgraded to gold (just because i'm stupid) and I just haven't had the heart to deconstruct them, but it's basically the only thing you can do with it now.

Not really, the perfect versions are no better than the original weapons. The new bonuses add nothing special other than a name change. The benefit of regrind/farm is next to null. Your already earnt weapons are still just as good as they were, but you don't have to bother with vet any more. If you need new ones you can faceroll normal instead. If anything, the vet content is totally void and invalidated in favor of the normal mode.

Heh.

stefj68 · June 2020

If you farm your weapon pre-patch, that means you can do it again and are ready for them! go get them tiger! if you looking for a cheezy way don't play mmo!