A new player feedback - ESO is both phenomenal and terrible

Iccotak

Tandor wrote: »

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

Yeah I have no idea how people enjoy how mindlessly easy the PvE is in this game. Hopefully they try harder in real life.

You have to remember that what is mindlessly easy to one person may be quite challenging to another. That is especially so with overland content in ESO depending on your past gaming experience, whether you're playing a genuinely new character or an alt with a gazillion CPs and a wealth of knowledge from playing the game for several years, and whether you're someone who likes to stroll through the quests and lore or click straight through those things because the games just about the combat, right?

You can often spot those players who find things mindlessly easy, they're the ones who have leveled up at a single dolmen supplemented by skill points bought in the Crown Store, used loads of addons to located everything for them, and ported everywhere through guildmates, only then to complain that it's all too quick and easy !

So because everything is relative there shouldn’t be a standard of skill or a goal for players to strive for?

The game content should be in a way that players WANT to get better & more powerful.

Iccotak

Lysette wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

i am fine with that as long as they don't demand as well better rewards - i just don't believe them if they want better rewards as well.

Why can't the base reward be blue or purple, as opposed to green? *points at vet vs normal dungeons*

Getting a 'Perfected Mother's Sorrow Staff' vs a normal one is crazy though. There's already too many item sets.

because then it is about better and easier farming and not about fighting boredom.

Easier farming would be flipping it to normal rather than vet, would it not? Trials / Perfected gear excluded, there's a reason everyone farms the normal dungeons when after a certain set piece. Then you get harder vet content with better tier (decon) rewards. It'd be entirely 100% consistent with the rest of the game design. Besides - it's primarily for questing purposes that people want harder overworld - farming and questing don't really go together.

i would believe it if you would take the higher difficulty without any better rewards whatsoever - but you just don't want that, so i don't believe these people.

I'll give you a thousand embroidery and thousand elegant lining to make up the difference should ZOS ever implement it if you want.

i have enough resources thank you - i don't care much about rewards either. it is not about that i would get less, it is more about honesty to me - i think that the demand for better rewards just shows that people are not honest about it. And i stick with blue gear to not overpower myself -then the game is just fine as it is given my ping.

A higher difficulty setting without better rewards is entirely pointless. I've always been honest about that.

Otherwise there would be no difference in rewards for normal/veteran/HM group content, either.

you see it is not about fighting boredom and it being too easy - you want better and easier to get rewards.i hope you won't get that ever.

This is why the rewards can’t be mechanical or in any way improve the character stats better/faster, because if they were then normal zones would become empty.
It has to be cosmetic rewards that players can earn & show off

tet666

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

Lysette

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

Iccotak

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

That isn’t 100% true

Arguments

1. The game needs to be better balanced because right now Overland & Story are too easy
2. There should be an optional hard mode for overland, like a separate instance.
3. If there’s no incentive then no one is going to do the harder content

So the question is what would be an appropriate reward for an optional hard mode that doesn’t leave Normal Empty ( if everyone was going to hard mode then that would make normal redundant ) that’s why I said Cosmetic rewards for hard mode achievements.

tet666

Lysette wrote: »

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

It's really not that's just what you assume, it seems you can't even comprehend ppl just playing games to challenge them self and have fun by doing so which is a bit weird to say the least.

Nomadic_Atmoran

tet666 wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Every rpgMMO I have played, even ESO at launch, have fairly easy overland content. Rarely do you run into a MMO where content is challenging. The reasoning for this is to get players through content ASAP and not to slow down the main story. The main challenge in rpgMMO games are not even dungeons but the bigger group content. In this game it is called a trial and in others it maybe called a raid. Group size for larger content typically has at minimum 8 players.

If you are use to solo player rpg games and expect a boss when doing the main quest in a MMO you will find yourself vastly disappointed because the game is not design to hold you back until you beat that boss. It is designed to allow you to beat the boss to continue to level up until you reach max level and hit end game. From there it is another grind. In most MMOs after you reach level cap you grind for gear, skill/skill points, etc... eventually you hit a point where you get burned out or focus on other aspects such as crafting, housing, pvp, etc..

This is my fifth or sixth MMO and each one is similar in how it pans out from start to finish. I also like solo rpgs and enjoy them for what they are but when I go play a MMO I know that main story typically is easy because the goal of the game is to get you to end game.

I play MMOs since Ultima Online in the early 2000s so about 2 decades by now. I pretty much played all the big western games and most Korean and Japanese MMOs released in the west and i can say with confidence that ESO has by far the easiest overworld content/questing from all the games i ever played.
It's so pathetically easy it literally drives new players away instead of railroading them to endgame content.

Western MMOs have not had a successful "difficult" MMO since EQ. WoW killed that for the genre because it showed that they could boost their numbers with more laid back overland and more difficult endgame content. And every semi to very successful MMO since has followed this formula. So Ima have to call bs on that claim.

And you have nothing to back up the claim that this game is chasing new players away with easy content.

Lysette

tet666 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

It's really not that's just what you assume, it seems you can't even comprehend ppl just playing games to challenge them self and have fun by doing so which is a bit weird to say the least.

well, you continue bashing on harder content - and i continue to point out that it is not about that, if you still insist on getting better rewards as well - or even worse, an own instance with all fresh nodes for you to farm with not many others around.

but I respect those who would take the challenge without better rewards or an own extra instance.

ApostateHobo

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Which one of you Difficulty Slider peeps made a new account?

Seriously this thread seems so suspect to me. I have never seen a genuinely new player complain that the game is too easy.

ChipSet91

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Seriously this thread seems so suspect to me. I have never seen a genuinely new player complain that the game is too easy.

I was thinking the same thing. I started playing in 2014 , but stopped playing after a few months. I just came back and at the moment, while I'm questing and leveling, ESO is harder than wow or swtor in my opinion.

AlnilamE

KarlosCV wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

and yes the game is a lot easier than it was - but there are as well millions more playing than ever before - and that has a reason.

And that reason is not necessarily that the game is easier.

It might be one of the reasons. But there are certainly others. For the longest time fans have speculated Zenimax won't let Bethesda make another TES game anytime soon because it would cannibalise ESO. Not sure if true but it does make sense. So people tired of waiting for TES6 started trickling into ESO. I'm certainly one of them and I'm definitely not alone.

Also I'm guessing going with F2P was another game changer for popularity, as well as regular updates and expansions.

People waiting for TES6 have been trickling into ESO since launch.

KarlosCV wrote: »

cmorris975 wrote: »

OP nailed it. This is exactly why I lose interest in ESO within a few minutes every time I download it and check on the game. It's terrible game design for an MMORPG.

I hope the OP will try other MMORPGs that don't have scaling. I don't want him or her to miss out on these shared virtual worlds that *do* have danger and progression. Not every MMORPG is catered so tightly to protect the player. There *are* adventures to be had.

Any tips? I've also checked WoW, Guild Wars and Neverwinter but in the end settled on ESO because I don't like the WoW art style plus there's a new expansion coming in July that will apparently change things completely so no point starting now. And the other MMOs don't seem to be nearly as populated as ESO and WoW, which was my main condition - plenty of people and guilds and social experiences.

Guild Wars 2 does scaling the opposite way of ESO, so that may be more up your alley. They scale you down if you go to a lower level zone, but they don't scale you up if you go to a higher level zone. It's also free to try the base game. You only need to buy the expansions. But as others have pointed out, there are no "quests" other than the main story. You just do stuff in a zone for fill hearts, and some maps have meta events.

KarlosCV wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

people always confuse scaling and difficulty - these are independent of one another

Everything always being around your level does not equal some mobs being way, way higher. Of course difficulty and scaling are related.

Btw reading this thread, I really don't understand this mentality "I want to go anywhere on level 1". I've been playing single-player RPGs since the 1990s and I have never heard this argument before.

The whole POINT of playing an RPG is to level up your character so you can progress in the game. That was always the core feature. We've never thought of the difficult areas as "gated" or "railroaded" or whatever the lingo is. They were simply areas you only get to when you get stronger. Everybody accepted the fact that no, you can't go straight to the final boss room from the starting point on level 1. That was normal. Not anymore, apparently.

Well, there's also the other way around. I want to be able to not outlevel a zone. Before one Tamriel, I had always ouleveled things by the third zone in the alliance (5 levels above and you would not get loot or XP except from quest rewards). If you stuck only to the main story quests, you would stay on/slightly below level. If you wanted to complete everything, you would start outleveling zones pretty quickly, and if you think overland is easy now, you should have seen it back then.

The other thing One Tamriel helps with is that you can play with friends no matter what their level is relative to yours. You can go help with world bosses if you find one of the tricky ones (have you tried the Caravan guar in Deshaan? Or the Crabouchet boss in Stormhaven? Or the Morrowind World Bosses?). Before, if you wanted to quest together, you had to stick to a schedule and only play that character when the rest of your group was also around. One Tamriel changed that, and we can now bring whoever we want to help any person.

That being said, it's obvious that ZOS could work to fine-tune the scaling a little bit to make low level characters less OP, so that you still get the feeling that you are getting stronger as you level up. But it is a delicate balance for players with different skill levels, picking different classes (not everyone is a magplar with a spammable that heals you, after all).

Personally, I don't mind the easy overland. I quest for the story, for reading books and discovering all the things. The mobs are a nuisance, and if they were harder, I would just cloak past them like I do now.

MEBengalsFan2001

tet666 wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Every rpgMMO I have played, even ESO at launch, have fairly easy overland content. Rarely do you run into a MMO where content is challenging. The reasoning for this is to get players through content ASAP and not to slow down the main story. The main challenge in rpgMMO games are not even dungeons but the bigger group content. In this game it is called a trial and in others it maybe called a raid. Group size for larger content typically has at minimum 8 players.

If you are use to solo player rpg games and expect a boss when doing the main quest in a MMO you will find yourself vastly disappointed because the game is not design to hold you back until you beat that boss. It is designed to allow you to beat the boss to continue to level up until you reach max level and hit end game. From there it is another grind. In most MMOs after you reach level cap you grind for gear, skill/skill points, etc... eventually you hit a point where you get burned out or focus on other aspects such as crafting, housing, pvp, etc..

This is my fifth or sixth MMO and each one is similar in how it pans out from start to finish. I also like solo rpgs and enjoy them for what they are but when I go play a MMO I know that main story typically is easy because the goal of the game is to get you to end game.

I play MMOs since Ultima Online in the early 2000s so about 2 decades by now. I pretty much played all the big western games and most Korean and Japanese MMOs released in the west and i can say with confidence that ESO has by far the easiest overworld content/questing from all the games i ever played.
It's so pathetically easy it literally drives new players away instead of railroading them to endgame content.

ESO is easy at first because of scaling works form level 1 to 50. Once you hit 50 and start gaining CP things change and an overland that was easy at level 8 isn't as easy because you don't have the high HP and stamina to avoid attacks endlessly. You also don't get the high resist either. Instead you are squishy and die a lot quicker.

Prior to OneT I found the old setup even easier. I was always 5-10 level below enemies and still had no issues. And that was because the game isn't suppose to be hard; it is designed to get us to end game to really start end game content which is vet trials and vet Dungeons.

Vindold

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

ESO is easy at first because of scaling works form level 1 to 50. Once you hit 50 and start gaining CP things change and an overland that was easy at level 8 isn't as easy because you don't have the high HP and stamina to avoid attacks endlessly. You also don't get the high resist either. Instead you are squishy and die a lot quicker.

Prior to OneT I found the old setup even easier. I was always 5-10 level below enemies and still had no issues. And that was because the game isn't suppose to be hard; it is designed to get us to end game to really start end game content which is vet trials and vet Dungeons.

But once you get solid gear suitable for DLC vet dungeons, overland enemies becomes even easier than before, you can even solo world bosses without golden gear, trial sets and arena weapons..

mav1234

KarlosCV wrote: »

But....why? The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world,

This is frankly not true at all. It is true of the *overworld* content, but there are many challenges to be had in the game. They are instanced, sure, but they are there. It may seem daunting to find groups, but it won't be, not if you have the desire.

Once you start thinking about dungeons as part of the game world, you realize there are challenges to be had.

That said - quest bosses really should be harder.

mav1234

Noxavian wrote: »

KarlosCV wrote: »

I'm an ESO noobie, jumped into the game yesterday. It's also my first MMORPG ever, although I've been playing single-player RPGs for 20 years.

First the positives - as a MMORPG noob I was utterly astonished by the size of the world and the amount of things you can do in this game. I did NOT expect anything close to that, and I have just the base game + Morrowind. No DLCs, no other expansions. I can now understand how people can spend years in this game and still have something to do. I also didn't expect how much the social aspect will appeal to me. Running through a dungeon with a group of people can be p. exhilarating. It's a very different experience from something like Skyrim or Witcher but definitely just as great.

And now for why I stopped playing just after a day. After a few hours of running around the world and having an absolute blast of my life I started noticing something suspicious - now matter where I go and what I fight I'm always doing about the same amount of damage. It took me a few hours to realize this but when I was fighting just some random punks or small monsters it made sense.

But then I stumbled into a group fight with some giant and again, I was doing a lot of damage, while taking barely any. And then I ran into a group of cultist in the forest who summoned a huge lich. And I just melted all of them, solo, just as easily as all the other monsters before.

I thought "wait a minute, how bad is the scaling in this game". So I googled a bit and oh boy...I learned the entire game is scaled exactly to your level, everywhere and all the time. And not only that - most people seem to be loving it!

But....why? The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world, that every single enemy everywhere will always be a "trash mob", my motivation to play this game dropped to zero. What's the point of levelling, of learning all that dizzying array of tools like crafting or alchemy if you never need any of it? With my magical templar all I ever did was to repeatedly press the "1" key to poke monsters with my piercing spear ability, simply because you never ever need to do anything else. In my 7 hours in the game I've never died, I've never even dropped below 50% of my HP. And I've soloed almost all the content too. Running around with a group was even more trivial.

How are people ok with this? I don't mean to bash or criticize anyone for liking a certain style of a game, I'm just curious - what is your drive to play this game? In all the dozens of RPGs I've ever played the point was to struggle and master all the skills and tools the game was offering in order to be able to take on harder and harder enemies. What's the main drive in ESO - just to travel around the world, sightseeing and absorb the lore? Don't get me wrong, the world is jaw droppingly phenomenal and the lore is absolutely amazing but is that really enough for you? You don't require any challenge in your RPG?

Sorry for the wall of text but this game gave me such mixed feelings I had to get it off my chest. It's also meant to be a feedback for the devs so they can see there's at least some proportion - admittedly a minority one - of TES fans who prefer challenge to "go anywhere on level 1".

The only thing I wish is for Quest Bosses (Like the final boss of the entire *** chapter) to be hard.

They SHOULD require thinking, strategy. Mechanics.

The fact anyone can fight the final boss of the ENTIRE EXPANSION with ease is just dumb.

I will give some people here some credit with the overland argument, sure, but bosses being easy? There's no excuse for that. It literally defeats the purpose of calling them a boss, they might as well bea mob.

I 100% agree with this. Quest bosses SHOULD be hard, especially final bosses. Make them scale with the CP of the player maybe? Perhaps have them in instanced areas so people can do them in a group or solo as they see fit?

Tandor

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

Which one of you Difficulty Slider peeps made a new account?

Seriously this thread seems so suspect to me. I have never seen a genuinely new player complain that the game is too easy.

It does happen very occasionally, about as often as another genuinely new player complains that the game is too hard. There was one just the other day from a new player who didn't understand the quest system. That's not to criticise him, rather to illustrate the fact that ZOS have to cater for all types of players and not just the experienced and elite ones.

TheImperfect

I think maybe it's not your sort of game, there's a lot of story and action. I always feel like I have something to do and still have challenges to meet. You are judging it from just one aspect, which admittedly is a large part but very worthwhile. Like someone said if all the mobs were tough it would get tiresome. There are world bosses for that.

Lysette

mav1234 wrote: »

KarlosCV wrote: »

But....why? The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world,

This is frankly not true at all. It is true of the *overworld* content, but there are many challenges to be had in the game. They are instanced, sure, but they are there. It may seem daunting to find groups, but it won't be, not if you have the desire.

Once you start thinking about dungeons as part of the game world, you realize there are challenges to be had.

That said - quest bosses really should be harder.

just thinking of the quest to rescue the king in daggerfall - how many get killed in the first attempt having just a few levels and crappy gear yet. Just go there and watch them dying. A lot have no idea that they can upgrade gear or use those with traits on them or that food would help them out a lot, and enchanting items, no idea - nor would they understand yet, that distributing attribute points equally will get them nowhere.

Tannus15

The scaling actually buffs you pretty hard for the first 10 levels and then slowly drops off until about level 30 where the game is probably at it's "hardest" point, then as you approach 50 you start getting stronger again as you finish levelling skill lines etc.

One of the weirder aspects of ESO is that you actually get weaker as you level up. A level 5 item has worse stats when you are level 10 than it did when you were level 5.

Moloch1514

Lysette wrote: »

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

I would pay crowns for a harder zone that doesn't put me to sleep questing. So people like me cant fall in the "always demands better rewards". My desired reward is engagement in my quest. The boss shouldnt go down in 3 hits...but they do...and I feel no sense of adventure.

Lysette

Tannus15 wrote: »

The scaling actually buffs you pretty hard for the first 10 levels and then slowly drops off until about level 30 where the game is probably at it's "hardest" point, then as you approach 50 you start getting stronger again as you finish levelling skill lines etc.

One of the weirder aspects of ESO is that you actually get weaker as you level up. A level 5 item has worse stats when you are level 10 than it did when you were level 5.

Better stats do not out-weight being clueless though - that is the main problem for a total newbie. At first everything is easy with no need to learn anything - until the first quest boss - first time seeing something different - red on the ground - and boom dead without to know why really.

Twilanthe

I'm not a fan of the idea of a toggle of some kind for a more difficult version of the whole game. I just don't like the idea myself.

But I would support them increasing the difficulty of certain things/areas. I wouldn't mind a sense of danger and challenge going into a delve. I'd actually like Delves to be almost like solo dungeons, with mechanics and stuff, and maybe the bosses drop purple versions of whatever the overland set is for that zone.

I'd also not mind them upping the difficulty of the bosses during quests. Maybe not all of them but maybe some, like the final boss of a quest. And I certainly wouldn't mind if some quests were like "group quests" where a CP810 geared to the hilt could solo it no problem, but someone under max level might need help. I do like the sense of community that comes with seeing people ask for help in zone chat with something difficult. (But at the same time I see a lot of people ask for help with a wold boss and get naught but crickets chirping so...)

It might also be neat if each zone had pockets of more challenging content, and you'd get a similar warning like you do in Craglorn when you enter group areas.

I think you'd get too much opposition if you made the main zone story quests too challenging that they couldn't be solo'd by low level players, but side quests should be fair game.

Just my two cents.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We have recently had to remove a handful of baiting and bashing comments from this thread. We must remind everyone that all should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules that we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,

ImmortalCX

The OP is right.

But he doesnt realize that as he levels, he will actually get less powerful unless he keeps upgrading his gear.

Lysette

Moloch1514 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

I would pay crowns for a harder zone that doesn't put me to sleep questing. So people like me cant fall in the "always demands better rewards". My desired reward is engagement in my quest. The boss shouldnt go down in 3 hits...but they do...and I feel no sense of adventure.

4 posts below the quoted one I said that I respect those who take the challenge without better rewards or an extra instance for it - so I respect you as well if that is what you are going for.

heaven13

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I feel like I might be the only person ever who struggled with overland content early on, lol. But the thing is that I made an account on PC EU after I hit 810+ on NA just to see what it was like, and I *still* struggled with overland content, and this was after vMA, vet trials, and high DPS on my NA account. I guess I'm just really bad at the strategic side of things or whatever it takes to steamroll mobs at a low level.

You're not. I mentioned it earlier, but I never even allocate CP to any of my characters until they've "earned" it (in the sense of hitting level 50 to get to champion levels). So early on, even having played as long as I have with countless vMA runs, with multiple trifecta achievements, etc, I still struggle with some of my new characters. I wear what I find (don't have crafted gear) and use what food they can either make or use my daily reward crown fortifying meals. Resources can still be a struggle, some helpful skills don't show up until later in the trees, etc. I have a much higher understanding of the game on a fundamental level, but I still completely get when people, particularly new players, struggle.

Thoragaal

Lysette wrote: »

tet666 wrote: »

Ppl are asking for a challenge and not rewards for chrissake why is that so hard to understand.

because they don't - it always gets back to the demand of better rewards - and that is what they really want.

It's possible that it's not a binary thing, when it comes to difficulty. @tet666 might only want the challenge, while someone like me actually want to feel like my character is getting stronger, like you suggested @Lysette .
I like going into an area and complely clear it before moving on to the next. If I'm in Reapers March doing quests, why would I all of a sudden want to go visit Glenumbra? The tiny bit of immersion ESO has gets completely ruined (at least for me) if I all of a sudden drop what ever's happening (in Reapers March) only to start investing time into a new story (in Glenumbra).

Sorry if I missed it, but why would having better rewards for a higher difficulty be an issue?

volkeswagon

It's BS. I had a hard time killing a mudcrab when I first started and couldn't even touch a public dungeon solo. I see unleveled players struggling all the time to kill simple monsters. You do more damage as you level. Just sounds like someone making up a story to try to convince ZOS to make open world harder so it drives half of its base away. Trials and dungeons are for people like you. Go do Maelstrom arena on vet

Infectious1X

Gotta love the “overland content isn’t meant to be difficult. Dungeons, trials, and PvP are” argument when overland happens to make the majority of the content by a HUGE MARGIN and is also required to level to any decent point, unless you enjoy running the same dungeons over and over and over (and even they have very little difficulty).

Kwoung

ChipSet91 wrote: »

ApostateHobo wrote: »

Seriously this thread seems so suspect to me. I have never seen a genuinely new player complain that the game is too easy.

I was thinking the same thing. I started playing in 2014 , but stopped playing after a few months. I just came back and at the moment, while I'm questing and leveling, ESO is harder than wow or swtor in my opinion.

I will third that. My wife and I came back about a year ago, we played beta and launch for a while, but started over and rolled up new characters. We only duo, were not in guilds, had no idea of gear sets or rotations, complementary skills and got our azzes kicked all the time. The game was not as easy as the OP claims by a long shot for us and we enjoyed it a lot. I suppose if we had done a ton of research first instead of just playing the game to learn it, or having a friendly guildy give us nice sets of crafted gear... that would probably have been very different.