Why is everything about PvP?

PieMaster1

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

MashmalloMan

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

People seek fun the way they want, who are you to tell them whats wrong or right? MMORPG's are fun for many different reasons, but 1 main reason has stood the test of time. They're addictive, grinding gear, customizing your character, leveling, etc. All serves to keep people engaged in the game, while increasing the chances that they will invest their time and money. Min-maxing is a perfectly acceptable form of enjoyment when the entire game is built to reinforce that outlook.

You also can't blame players for speaking about balance when it comes to pvp, unfortunately it's ZOS's decision, good or bad, to keep equipment the same for pve and pvp scenario's. Many other, more balanced games create completely different requirements for pvp and pve to help seperate them and allow both to thrive.

The only distinctions between pve and pvp is sustain, utility and defensive traits like impen. Skills only seperate themselves from pve by being ground based dots for the most part, if they don't have any proper utility, they're usually seen as pve skills like Lightning Flood or Wall of Elements (Frost is the exception because it adds utility). This means every skill and every piece of gear can easily be used in both sides of content. Once again, good or bad, thats how it is.

Pro's, everything feels connected, progress from one side of the game can carry to the other. Con's, the game will never be truely balanced, some sets are downright broken OP for pvp while being reasonable for pve where the only thing that matters is DPS parsing.

So again, blame ZOS for the communities response to pvp balance where things make a much larger impact. Of course pve players don't really complain when you mostly just want to use the highest damage set with the very minimum amount of sustain to get the most out of the experience there.

Last thought.. this game is nowhere close to being pvp focussed. In the 6 years it's been out with roughly 4 dlc per year. So roughly 24 dlc's (not accurate, I know, can't go in game and count them all right now), pvp has only received 2 pieces of specific dlc content which were combined with pve elements, that being IC and BG's with Morrowind, both of which are free now (good, increases player pool). There has not been a new map in I think over a year for BG? Pvp content is considered an afterthought with 4 dungeons, a new trial, 2 zones and story quests released every year. Any improvements are slipped in as base game quality of life upgrades like the Vampire/Werewolf updates.

Pvp will not be getting a dedicated DLC ever in the game's future, because thats' not where ZOS see's the revenue anymore. Fair enough. What pvp is there, is solid enough, people just want the game to work mostly, but thats too much to ask for.

Plus.. pvp and pve is not this huge divide where you only do one or the other. I do both, i know a lot of people do. Not sure why people always assume they're seperate crowds.

Pinja

PvP has many grievances and representatives to air those grievances, but it is not well looked after or prioritized.

Noted though you can only fit so many people in a Pvp server at the most it's ever been I estimate the game was capable of holding less than 10000 players in pvp. Making metrics disproportionate from the start. Even in the worst of performance cycles there's a full campaign. And dedication of some players through the worst of it is testament to how good pvp was/ is.

deleted221106-002999

Any changes to combat or anything related to combat, like gear, impact pvp immediately and noticeably - that's it.

I play pretty much most aspects of the game - if I'm questing overland or wandering through a delve or public dungeon, update changes are not immediately apparent unless it's fairly substantial (the recent lag/desynch issues and aoe skills causing stuttering come to mind in this respect). In pvp if skills or a broad class of abilities (eg healing) is changed it is immediately noticeable.

But I agree, there is LOT of hyperbole - except if/when I'm complaining about something, obviously.

MashmalloMan

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

1 more thing. The Chapter has been on the PTS for PC since April 19th. It released to live on PC for May 26th. What you consider "not being released yet" is only for console.

I think roughly 2 months from PTS launch or even 2 weeks on Live is enough time to really take everything in.

Ratzkifal

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Seriously, it’s incredibly annoying. Happened loads of times before and since Greymoor was announced.

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

Time for a history lesson. When this game launched, trials were not a thing. There was no endgame content other than PvP. Then they added questing in the other alliances and Craglorn - the group-focused zone together with its first three trials.
Sure, there were dungeons, but only the very early dungeons that weren't very interesting to run compared to what we have now. PvP was the only endgame content back then and it made a lot of sense too since PvP never gets old as it is content created by the players for the players. (Just like roleplay)

As for the update not having released yet. Yes it has. It has released on PC. What are you talking about? And even before that it was testable on PTS. But even then, ZOS might deny that, but people with sufficient understanding about the game are able to deduce how a balance change will affect the game just by looking at the change. The difference between 10% and 6% is something you don't need to test again if you can already get the result through math. Only ambiguous wording needs to be tested. And for finding bugs of course.

Competitiveness is nothing that's exclusive to PvP either. People complain in PvE too about their favorite class not dealing as much damage as stamina necromancer or animation cancelling and bashweaving inflating dps or stamina having better sets (Lokkestiiz) than magicka. And just like in PvP, ZOS keeps ruining PvE builds for no reason (many times not even PvP-reasons as can be seen in the case of the Asylum staff).

Now to what seems to be the core of your thread. The vamp rework. I haven't seen a whole lot of PvP players upset about the vampire rework. Vampires have been quite niche in PvP anyway after the stun was moved to the end of the channel of drain and even before that, any time vampires have become anywhere close to mainstream in PvP, people would start using prismatic damage weapon enchants and Dawnbreaker more until the vampire numbers start dwindling again.

In PvE on the other hand... people were able to sleep on vampire's quite substantial recovery bonus for the longest of time.
A few people were upset about that going away as it was the whole reason for their characters to become vampires.
Then there are the people who chose to become vampires for aesthetic reasons as well who are also upset that vampirism now comes at a greater non-vampire-ability cost, which includes ultimates by the way, thus ruining a few vampire characters and making feeding obsolete as it only exaggerates these issues further.
And lastly we have the people that are disappointed with the look of the Blood Scion ultimate because they feel the skin texture looks wrong or would rather have darker eyes instead or get some fancy Vampire Lord wings or something similar, but those do not really count towards the PvE crowd.

So... what is it you actually want to talk about here? "Why is everything about PvP?" Not everything is about PvP. Quite the opposite. PvP has been neglected for years and the performance there is even worse than in trials!

PieMaster1

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

1 more thing. The Chapter has been on the PTS for PC since April 19th. It released to live on PC for May 26th. What you consider "not being released yet" is only for console.

I think roughly 2 months from PTS launch or even 2 weeks on Live is enough time to really take everything in.

Honestly you were completely right in the first post. It just ‘seems’ that everything revolves around the pvpers. So much that a guy like me decides to make a post just to vent 😛 I think in PVP something’s always gonna be “broken OP” at some point because we’re fighting actual people with strategy who can utilize skills and not just a robot AI

In which casw they really should have implemented something where certain things aren’t allowed in cyro

PieMaster1

Ratzkifal wrote: »

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Seriously, it’s incredibly annoying. Happened loads of times before and since Greymoor was announced.

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

Time for a history lesson. When this game launched, trials were not a thing. There was no endgame content other than PvP. Then they added questing in the other alliances and Craglorn - the group-focused zone together with its first three trials.
Sure, there were dungeons, but only the very early dungeons that weren't very interesting to run compared to what we have now. PvP was the only endgame content back then and it made a lot of sense too since PvP never gets old as it is content created by the players for the players. (Just like roleplay)

As for the update not having released yet. Yes it has. It has released on PC. What are you talking about? And even before that it was testable on PTS. But even then, ZOS might deny that, but people with sufficient understanding about the game are able to deduce how a balance change will affect the game just by looking at the change. The difference between 10% and 6% is something you don't need to test again if you can already get the result through math. Only ambiguous wording needs to be tested. And for finding bugs of course.

Competitiveness is nothing that's exclusive to PvP either. People complain in PvE too about their favorite class not dealing as much damage as stamina necromancer or animation cancelling and bashweaving inflating dps or stamina having better sets (Lokkestiiz) than magicka. And just like in PvP, ZOS keeps ruining PvE builds for no reason (many times not even PvP-reasons as can be seen in the case of the Asylum staff).

Now to what seems to be the core of your thread. The vamp rework. I haven't seen a whole lot of PvP players upset about the vampire rework. Vampires have been quite niche in PvP anyway after the stun was moved to the end of the channel of drain and even before that, any time vampires have become anywhere close to mainstream in PvP, people would start using prismatic damage weapon enchants and Dawnbreaker more until the vampire numbers start dwindling again.

In PvE on the other hand... people were able to sleep on vampire's quite substantial recovery bonus for the longest of time.
A few people were upset about that going away as it was the whole reason for their characters to become vampires.
Then there are the people who chose to become vampires for aesthetic reasons as well who are also upset that vampirism now comes at a greater non-vampire-ability cost, which includes ultimates by the way, thus ruining a few vampire characters and making feeding obsolete as it only exaggerates these issues further.
And lastly we have the people that are disappointed with the look of the Blood Scion ultimate because they feel the skin texture looks wrong or would rather have darker eyes instead or get some fancy Vampire Lord wings or something similar, but those do not really count towards the PvE crowd.

So... what is it you actually want to talk about here? "Why is everything about PvP?" Not everything is about PvP. Quite the opposite. PvP has been neglected for years and the performance there is even worse than in trials!

I’m just a relatively casual player and i just become annoyed that everyone is always complaining about something. Not many positive word on any updates or such, there’s always whine threads. When’s the last time you heard someone say “Nice job, devs!”? Oh wait, I DON’T LIKE THE VAMP COLOR SO ITS TRASH UPDATE WAHHH sue ZOS because they robbed me 😅

It’s not just here. Pretty much the whole internet has turned into a pessimist cesspool.

I went a bit off topic but anyways, i guess it’s just a case of “minority group with the loudest voice”. Maybe i’m just a filthy casual gamer who thinks too much into stuff

I can’t be the only one though, it seems in every single thing i read there’s at least one mention of player versus player and how this new thing ruins it. Oh, forgot to throw in a ZOS SUX git gud

Dusk_Coven

Because ZOS was too short-sighted to properly test PvP, they didn't realize it needed it's own dedicated mechanics. When you need massive adjustments packaged into Battle Spirit, you know the mechanics are utter nonsense right from the get-go.
And they keep tweaking shared mechanics even though PvP obviously needs a different set of underlying mechanics. This constantly affects PvE.

PvP in ESO is a short-cut afterthought to make money from the PvP market. It's so "successful" they even gave away a whole PvP DLC for free to everyone. Instead of doing the up front work to make a proper system or separate server that can have separate rules, they are being bled to death with a thousand cuts every time they put out content and have to tweak endlessly. Justice, in a way.

Deathlord92

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Seriously, it’s incredibly annoying. Happened loads of times before and since Greymoor was announced.

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

I play both pvp and pve and I know others who do the same now as for vampire you will actually find more pve players upset with it because every single tank and healer who likes playing a vampire can’t anymore at least in end game pve damage dealer may find a work around but it would be difficult and of course pvp players will be upset to.

Crash427

I think part of the problem is that there are players who are better theory crafters than the devs and they figure out builds that can more or less break the game. Now in PVE it doesn't affect me if someone figures out a way to cheese a 150k dummy parse. In PVP it completely ruined a BG match when someone would take a necro basher in and just obliterate all 8 of the other players.

fastolfv_ESO

this game was released as a pvp game with no trials or pve endgame, so it will always have a pvp base no matter what. Now the fact that after about 6 months into the game cyro started failing so hard it would crash over and over with 999 ping for everyone was a huge problem. If any gaming company failed to fix an issue for 5 and a half years that effected the core of the game you better bet the hate will be real in the playerbase, you can be a casual quester a trials guy etc and still see issues other aspects of the game are having. Each group of players are not seperated into teams and in competition, if part of the game doesnt work everyone as a playerbase can call it out and demand better

PieMaster1

Deathlord92 wrote: »

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Seriously, it’s incredibly annoying. Happened loads of times before and since Greymoor was announced.

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

I play both pvp and pve and I know others who do the same now as for vampire you will actually find more pve players upset with it because every single tank and healer who likes playing a vampire can’t anymore at least in end game pve damage dealer may find a work around but it would be difficult and of course pvp players will be upset to.

I really don’t even pay attention to changes like removal of 10% passive buffs and the like, nor the exact number adjustments. If a skill now takes more magic, oh well. I can protest and quit the game or i can just work around it until the next change. I haven’t played this game a ton but i just wouldn’t be bothered by something like increased costs. Though i never reached end game either so maybe everything i say is useless

TineaCruris

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

1 more thing. The Chapter has been on the PTS for PC since April 19th. It released to live on PC for May 26th. What you consider "not being released yet" is only for console.

I think roughly 2 months from PTS launch or even 2 weeks on Live is enough time to really take everything in.

Honestly you were completely right in the first post. It just ‘seems’ that everything revolves around the pvpers. So much that a guy like me decides to make a post just to vent 😛 I think in PVP something’s always gonna be “broken OP” at some point because we’re fighting actual people with strategy who can utilize skills and not just a robot AI

In which casw they really should have implemented something where certain things aren’t allowed in cyro

Except nothing in this game PvP related is prioritized. The entire game focus now is the crown store and selling new content to the PvE players. There is zero catering to those of us who PvP.

DaveMoeDee

Pinja wrote: »

PvP has many grievances and representatives to air those grievances, but it is not well looked after or prioritized.

Noted though you can only fit so many people in a Pvp server at the most it's ever been I estimate the game was capable of holding less than 10000 players in pvp. Making metrics disproportionate from the start. Even in the worst of performance cycles there's a full campaign. And dedication of some players through the worst of it is testament to how good pvp was/ is.

I don't know that it isn't prioritized. All we can say is that their attempts to remedy performance issues haven't been going well.

Ratzkifal

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Seriously, it’s incredibly annoying. Happened loads of times before and since Greymoor was announced.

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

Time for a history lesson. When this game launched, trials were not a thing. There was no endgame content other than PvP. Then they added questing in the other alliances and Craglorn - the group-focused zone together with its first three trials.
Sure, there were dungeons, but only the very early dungeons that weren't very interesting to run compared to what we have now. PvP was the only endgame content back then and it made a lot of sense too since PvP never gets old as it is content created by the players for the players. (Just like roleplay)

As for the update not having released yet. Yes it has. It has released on PC. What are you talking about? And even before that it was testable on PTS. But even then, ZOS might deny that, but people with sufficient understanding about the game are able to deduce how a balance change will affect the game just by looking at the change. The difference between 10% and 6% is something you don't need to test again if you can already get the result through math. Only ambiguous wording needs to be tested. And for finding bugs of course.

Competitiveness is nothing that's exclusive to PvP either. People complain in PvE too about their favorite class not dealing as much damage as stamina necromancer or animation cancelling and bashweaving inflating dps or stamina having better sets (Lokkestiiz) than magicka. And just like in PvP, ZOS keeps ruining PvE builds for no reason (many times not even PvP-reasons as can be seen in the case of the Asylum staff).

Now to what seems to be the core of your thread. The vamp rework. I haven't seen a whole lot of PvP players upset about the vampire rework. Vampires have been quite niche in PvP anyway after the stun was moved to the end of the channel of drain and even before that, any time vampires have become anywhere close to mainstream in PvP, people would start using prismatic damage weapon enchants and Dawnbreaker more until the vampire numbers start dwindling again.

In PvE on the other hand... people were able to sleep on vampire's quite substantial recovery bonus for the longest of time.
A few people were upset about that going away as it was the whole reason for their characters to become vampires.
Then there are the people who chose to become vampires for aesthetic reasons as well who are also upset that vampirism now comes at a greater non-vampire-ability cost, which includes ultimates by the way, thus ruining a few vampire characters and making feeding obsolete as it only exaggerates these issues further.
And lastly we have the people that are disappointed with the look of the Blood Scion ultimate because they feel the skin texture looks wrong or would rather have darker eyes instead or get some fancy Vampire Lord wings or something similar, but those do not really count towards the PvE crowd.

So... what is it you actually want to talk about here? "Why is everything about PvP?" Not everything is about PvP. Quite the opposite. PvP has been neglected for years and the performance there is even worse than in trials!

I’m just a relatively casual player and i just become annoyed that everyone is always complaining about something. Not many positive word on any updates or such, there’s always whine threads. When’s the last time you heard someone say “Nice job, devs!”? Oh wait, I DON’T LIKE THE VAMP COLOR SO ITS TRASH UPDATE WAHHH sue ZOS because they robbed me 😅

It’s not just here. Pretty much the whole internet has turned into a pessimist cesspool.

I went a bit off topic but anyways, i guess it’s just a case of “minority group with the loudest voice”. Maybe i’m just a filthy casual gamer who thinks too much into stuff

I can’t be the only one though, it seems in every single thing i read there’s at least one mention of player versus player and how this new thing ruins it. Oh, forgot to throw in a ZOS SUX git gud

The best things about that update got last-minute nerfs. The Blackrose Prison dualwield set would have been the first set that can compete with the Maelstrom bow. Compete, not beat. They would have been similar in strength with one being better than the other in certain scenarios, but ZOS decided to nerf it too much. Now nobody has any reason to use it in PvE. If mitigation in PvP was the problem, then they should have just made it 10% damage and 6% mitigation rather than 6% damage and mitigation.

The master's dualwield was also a great change until the last minute nerf. Dizzying Swing is the go-to spammable for most melee stamina builds in PvP, even for NBs with the changes they made to surprise attack (more unintentional stuns giving enemies cc immunity at the worst of times) and the twin slashes could have been a good alternative for it. But since it doesn't have a cast time and has secondary effects, ZOS felt the damage was too high and instead of nerfing the damage by a reasonable amount they overnerfed it again.

People were happy with the hotfix that ZOS made for exaclty one day. After that the performance somehow managed to get worse again.

The people who are being negative here are upset with ZOS because they somehow manage to make a lot of bad changes and somehow ruin the changes that were actually good. The forums are passionate about the game and are sad to see it handled like this when it could be so much more and so much better. PTS feedback gets ignored only for ZOS to implement exactly those changes 3 months later or even 6 months and until then we are stuck with the bad changes. Who wouldn't get frustrated with that?

Oh and, PvP players are not a "minority group" really. I mean, they are, but that makes it sound like only 10% or so are playing PvP when it's actually a lot more. Probably like 40% to 60% with a lot of them doing both PvP and PvE.

nesakinter

Here is the thing, PvErs do not really care about balance in the wider spectrum of things as long as any change makes their character more powerful. If ZoS added a 2000 Spell dmg set, PvErs will be overjoyed and not a single PvEr will complain but I will guarantee that 99% of PvPers will be up in arms against it.

Oh wait, Thressian Stragglers.... Well at least ZOS made sure, it does not work in PvP.

Dusk_Coven

nesakinter wrote: »

Here is the thing, PvErs do not really care about balance in the wider spectrum of things as long as any change makes their character more powerful. If ZoS added a 2000 Spell dmg set, PvErs will be overjoyed and not a single PvEr will complain but I will guarantee that 99% of PvPers will be up in arms against it.

Oh wait, Thressian Stragglers.... Well at least ZOS made sure, it does not work in PvP.

Considering there are so many posts complaining PvE this and that is too easy, I'd say this is completely reversed.
PvPers are the one constantly looking for unkillable builds or one-shot ganking builds or everything else unbalanced in some way.

catnamedwill

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

Here is the thing, PvErs do not really care about balance in the wider spectrum of things as long as any change makes their character more powerful. If ZoS added a 2000 Spell dmg set, PvErs will be overjoyed and not a single PvEr will complain but I will guarantee that 99% of PvPers will be up in arms against it.

Oh wait, Thressian Stragglers.... Well at least ZOS made sure, it does not work in PvP.

Considering there are so many posts complaining PvE this and that is too easy, I'd say this is completely reversed.
PvPers are the one constantly looking for unkillable builds or one-shot ganking builds or everything else unbalanced in some way.

Well, only part of PvE that complains about being too easy is the overland, which is not really what anyone would consider endgame PvE.

Dusk_Coven

catnamedwill wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

Here is the thing, PvErs do not really care about balance in the wider spectrum of things as long as any change makes their character more powerful. If ZoS added a 2000 Spell dmg set, PvErs will be overjoyed and not a single PvEr will complain but I will guarantee that 99% of PvPers will be up in arms against it.

Oh wait, Thressian Stragglers.... Well at least ZOS made sure, it does not work in PvP.

Considering there are so many posts complaining PvE this and that is too easy, I'd say this is completely reversed.
PvPers are the one constantly looking for unkillable builds or one-shot ganking builds or everything else unbalanced in some way.

Well, only part of PvE that complains about being too easy is the overland, which is not really what anyone would consider endgame PvE.

Even complaints about overland are signs that PvE people want to be challenged. The hardcore PvE people are looking for challenges in vet trials and going for the tough achievements. Others do vMA or solo 4-man dungeons, even vet and DLC ones. So an unbalanced skill/weapon/whatever would only be defended by exploiters.

The hardcore PvP people are either AP Boosting or PvDoor in Cyro, or looking for the weakest and most unaware opponents around to gank. Or people re-rolling toons and pay-2-win their way in under-50's BG. Really completely the opposite of looking for a challenge. They want everything as easy as possible and will do whatever and defend whatever exploits make it possible. Like camping IC sewer doors and killing people while they are still loading in (forcing ZOS to fix that -- now they exploit it differently by standing in the safe zone at a door to recon).

The "real" PvPers looking for actually good fights are probably not that many and struggling to find those good fights in BG or Cyro. The best they can do is control who they fight and do duels with good opponents -- something completely out of the reward system for PvP.

alewis478b14_ESO

As with most games, the PvP'ers are a very small percentage of players but they are very vocal. Plus, the PvP systems are terrible so they have a lot more to complain about that others.

Xargas13

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

PvE gamer complaints about PvP gamers where the most content is PvE, that's cute. PvP has little to no content released, you get all the goodies, and that is understandable that PvP crowd want's something too, like it or not, PvP is a part of the game, it's not LoTR... And every change that comes to gear or abilities is first noticed by PvP players, since in PvP environment is more sensitive to changes. Again, ZOS included PvP in this game, bad or not, people who playing it want something good too.

Integral1900

Let me play devil‘s advocate.

When this game launched they tried to introduce PVP into a game series that has traditionally been entirely PVE. It was always going to be an uphill struggle simply because the elder scrolls game series does not traditionally attract PVP players, it is also not traditionally known for particular difficult gameplay as it is first and foremost a storytelling mechanism. Elder scrolls is not dark souls and it never will be.

It is true that at launch there was a modest PVP interest but inevitably that dwindled, some of that was the studios fault, quite a lot of it was in fact, but ultimately it was facing an impossible uphill struggle because it was offering something diametrically opposite to the experience most elder scrolls players were interested in.

Today the percentage of the total population that plays PVP on a regular basis is extremely small, you may see lots of people with alliance war ranks but I promise you they will be very low level for one simple reason. They have gone and done the training missions to get the two skill points, they have then never gone back and I can guarantee this is the explanation for the vast majority of alliance war ranks you see in this game. It does not mean they play PVP regularly, it simply means they wanted the skill points, my mob of low level crafting characters all have PVP ranks because they went to get These skill points, not because I have any intention of playing PVP with them

The result is a very dedicated but very small community, they simply do not generate the immense income that their PVE counterparts do. This is why they don’t get more investment than they do, from a business point of view it makes sense to focus on PVE in elder scrolls because PVP just does not appeal to enough players. You can put all the rewards you like in there it won’t change the fact that most people do not like PVP. Right now imperial city will be swarming with players looking to get those antiquities leads, as soon as they’ve got them they will disappear back to PVE land.

PVP players have traditionally use the vampire for what it was, which is let’s face it a bonus to recovery and a few other perks. It was used to support a build rather than being a build in itself. The new vampire is clearly aimed squarely at PVE because that’s where the vast majority of the demand is. They may well tweak it over time to make it fit better with PVP but that clearly was not the priority.

Personally I may hate and loath doing PVP for containing certain items that I cannot get anywhere else, and I know for certain many PVP players feel the same way about PVE and if it was left up to me the two game systems will be treated entirely separately with rewards available in entirely through their own modes. If it was up to me PVP players will not have to run dungeons to get monster masks but neither would I have to run battlegrounds to get the crafting styles.

I can certainly understand their frustration, it is the frustration of a very small but as I say very dedicated group who have found themselves stuck at the bottom of an extremely small financial duckpond with no obvious way of getting back out of it.

barney2525

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

They like to think they own it.

They like to say things like 'This is a PvP game after all !'

IMHO

Lysette

catnamedwill wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

nesakinter wrote: »

Here is the thing, PvErs do not really care about balance in the wider spectrum of things as long as any change makes their character more powerful. If ZoS added a 2000 Spell dmg set, PvErs will be overjoyed and not a single PvEr will complain but I will guarantee that 99% of PvPers will be up in arms against it.

Oh wait, Thressian Stragglers.... Well at least ZOS made sure, it does not work in PvP.

Considering there are so many posts complaining PvE this and that is too easy, I'd say this is completely reversed.
PvPers are the one constantly looking for unkillable builds or one-shot ganking builds or everything else unbalanced in some way.

Well, only part of PvE that complains about being too easy is the overland, which is not really what anyone would consider endgame PvE.

well "end game" is anyway an alien term for rpg fans - we shouldn't forget where the elder scrolls are coming from. Most of the MMO stuff is alien to these kind of players and what is their game - overland and story driven content - is just a part of the game pvpers rush through within hours or a couple of days to get to their "end game" - both worlds are largely incompatible and will never go well together.

and to say this would be a pvp game, just because there is a playground in the middle to do this kind of stuff, whereas most of the game is anything but ... is ridiculous.

xshatox

Integral1900 wrote: »

Let me play devil‘s advocate.

When this game launched they tried to introduce PVP into a game series that has traditionally been entirely PVE. It was always going to be an uphill struggle simply because the elder scrolls game series does not traditionally attract PVP players, it is also not traditionally known for particular difficult gameplay as it is first and foremost a storytelling mechanism. Elder scrolls is not dark souls and it never will be.

It is true that at launch there was a modest PVP interest but inevitably that dwindled, some of that was the studios fault, quite a lot of it was in fact, but ultimately it was facing an impossible uphill struggle because it was offering something diametrically opposite to the experience most elder scrolls players were interested in.

Today the percentage of the total population that plays PVP on a regular basis is extremely small, you may see lots of people with alliance war ranks but I promise you they will be very low level for one simple reason. They have gone and done the training missions to get the two skill points, they have then never gone back and I can guarantee this is the explanation for the vast majority of alliance war ranks you see in this game. It does not mean they play PVP regularly, it simply means they wanted the skill points, my mob of low level crafting characters all have PVP ranks because they went to get These skill points, not because I have any intention of playing PVP with them

The result is a very dedicated but very small community, they simply do not generate the immense income that their PVE counterparts do. This is why they don’t get more investment than they do, from a business point of view it makes sense to focus on PVE in elder scrolls because PVP just does not appeal to enough players. You can put all the rewards you like in there it won’t change the fact that most people do not like PVP. Right now imperial city will be swarming with players looking to get those antiquities leads, as soon as they’ve got them they will disappear back to PVE land.

PVP players have traditionally use the vampire for what it was, which is let’s face it a bonus to recovery and a few other perks. It was used to support a build rather than being a build in itself. The new vampire is clearly aimed squarely at PVE because that’s where the vast majority of the demand is. They may well tweak it over time to make it fit better with PVP but that clearly was not the priority.

Personally I may hate and loath doing PVP for containing certain items that I cannot get anywhere else, and I know for certain many PVP players feel the same way about PVE and if it was left up to me the two game systems will be treated entirely separately with rewards available in entirely through their own modes. If it was up to me PVP players will not have to run dungeons to get monster masks but neither would I have to run battlegrounds to get the crafting styles.

I can certainly understand their frustration, it is the frustration of a very small but as I say very dedicated group who have found themselves stuck at the bottom of an extremely small financial duckpond with no obvious way of getting back out of it.

PVPers usually skilled in PVE but not the otherway around. So no they are not frustrated by PVE.

LuxLunae

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

Didn't read the comments yet but...


IT'S BECAUSE THAT IS THE ENDGAME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QXk-xbRgSg

MincVinyl

Idk if OP knows this, but people try hard in pve aswell. PvP is just the basis where it is easiest to compare class identity easier. Alot of times Pve comes down to out of class meta.

Also just because you want to play a competitive game at a casual level does not mean everyone else should/does. On top of that the game should NEVER be balanced around casual players. A strong core backbone based around what the posible endgame is necessary for players to slowly improve over time. If players can enter into the game and within a week or two be at the same mechanical level as someone who is 6 years into the game, what more is there to do but waste your time playing a game you are the best at?

ItsJustHashtag

MincVinyl wrote: »

Idk if OP knows this, but people try hard in pve aswell. PvP is just the basis where it is easiest to compare class identity easier. Alot of times Pve comes down to out of class meta.

Also just because you want to play a competitive game at a casual level does not mean everyone else should/does. On top of that the game should NEVER be balanced around casual players. A strong core backbone based around what the posible endgame is necessary for players to slowly improve over time. If players can enter into the game and within a week or two be at the same mechanical level as someone who is 6 years into the game, what more is there to do but waste your time playing a game you are the best at?

I feel like the last part of this comment is exactly what ZOS wants though.

Joy_Division

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

If this game was owned by PvPers, I can assure you that the updates wouldn't degrade performance to an extent that made PvP not fun to play.

Jeremy

CreamedPieYum wrote: »

Sorry, forgot to clarify that i’m on Xbox. So we don’t even have Greymoor yet

People have been constantly trashing this update without it even being released yet. Every single post is about some sweaty competitive perspective and it irritates me to no end.

Is this game owned by the PvPers or something? Are they paying off ZoS? (Was a joke but you never know) Yes i may have been naive but i always thought pvE was the vast majority of people.

I just don’t want some game mode i never play to dictate every single thing that goes on in ESO. I for one actually think the Vamp line is gonna be cool as hell, i actually enjoy myself unlike these pessimists.

Only real complaint i have is that the nightblade is kind of pointless as it’s literally vampire now. And who cares if this update biases stamina or magic, takes 5 minutes to buy back and redistribute points. People are way too try-hardy and min-max. It’s a VIDEO GAME

I don't understand why you think PvP dictates every single thing that goes on in ESO. Almost everything to do with Greymoor is PvE-related. West Skyrim is PvE - Black Reach is PvE - the new system (Antiquities) is PvE.

People are upset in PvP because they made some dramatic changes to how healing and defense function (probably a lot of other things too). Previous play styles and builds that were effective are now garbage and die almost instantly (that's not an exaggeration). So people are understandably annoyed and letting the developers know it. I had to rethink and rebuild my character. That's for sure. So its' not about "min-maxing", trust me. The differences are far more stark than that. These people aren't complaining because they might be doing a little less damage. They are complaining because they are being obliterated as if a nuke had been dropped on them before they can even do anything. PvEers would not be enjoying that either if that suddenly started happening to them.

As far as the new Vampire Line - I differ with some (perhaps many) here and think it's cool as well. In fact: the new Vampire line has been the one saving grace that's kept me involved in PvP on this game at all. I would have already retired from PvP all together if not for those changes - in particular the ones done to MIst Form - which is actually really cool now and has a lot of interesting game play applications. It's also the only way I've found to create an effective defense that gives you more than a 1 second window to stay alive in...

I don't understand why you think Night Blade is pointless now, either. If you mean in respect to Unnatural Movement (the sprint/invisible passive for Vampire) I wouldn't worry so much about that. The Nightblade's invisible is still far superior at being used during combat. So just slapping on a stage 4 Vampire is not going to turn people into Nightblades. If that is your concern, you can put that out of your mind.