Potential Dragonbreak in ESO's timeline

NoodleESO

The activation of Amulet of Kings, the Staff of Towers, and the Mask of Akatosh are enough to constitute a Dragon break, not to mention the deactivation of the Crystal tower and the White-Gold tower (notice all took place except for in Morrowind and Greymoor chapter). When the Scalebreaker dlc was released the devs mentioned we would start to see the pieces of the puzzle being put together. Selene was used for Lair of Maarselok and many including myself thought of this in a linear story, with older npcs playing a future roll, but what if this wasn't the case?

Remember what Augar of Obscure said about dragon breaks? What if selene's soul was captured before she was defeated in her web? In the Summerset chapter the player goes around sealing time breeches all over Tamriel without reason, most of which are in important areas of the base game. If these aren't already enough to indicate the breaking of time, the player (any player) can start anywhere in the game making for non linear events and infinite in realities. But what really got my attention is the new cinematic, The Nord hero is underground about to be attacked by werewolves, gives Lyris his axe and draws his sword. The same sword he leaves in the ground after pulling the elf hero from the rubble in the first trailer for the game. Where is the Nord hero first seen? Underground killing werewolves.

The Ashen Lord (bad guy of Greymoor chapter) is currently trying to free his teammate's souls from Coldharbour and with the Prophet almost guaranteed to return the stage is set for a potential looping of the ESO story. Instead of killing off the bad guy this time around, there might be a reason to assist him by going to Coldharbour to cause a soul burst (possibly making base game ESO take place after the chapters). Then the player wakes up in Morrowind (or anywhere) and the story starts all over again.

When the player is given their soul after defeating Molag Bal, Meridia tells the player the events taken place actually workout in favor of Molag Bal's plans. This could be referring to the endless looping of time and endless torment of souls from the Dragon break created by the soul burst.

If this is the case the only thing that can save Tamriel (and I can not believe I am typing this) is Sheogorath. The return of Jyggalag.

ManwithBeard9

No, ESO is not involved in any sort or dragon break. Matt Firor stated it himself- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/b7cc1f/eso_is_not_in_a_dragon_break/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

The "3 Fates" cinematics and following Chapter ones are not canon and purely theatrical purposes.

Thew devs have also stated that the timeline for ESO canon TOO THE PLAYER. Whatever order you play the content in is what is canon in your storyline.

NoodleESO

@ManwithBeard9

Sorry but that just what someone in a dragon break would say.

Its been said the Devs don't play their own game so that would mean they are in the break. The only people outside of the break when it happened are: The Player, the Prophet, Lyris, Abnar, Sai, Molag Bal, Meridia, Cadwell, Jyggalag, and possibly Mannimarco.

If you're in a Dragon break, you can't tell you are in a Dragon break. Plus it explains how the lore on vampires flipped and gets re-flipped.

ManwithBeard9

NoodleESO wrote: »

@ManwithBeard9

Sorry but that just what someone in a dragon break would say.

Its been said the Devs don't play their own game so that would mean they are in the break. The only people outside of the break when it happened are: The Player, the Prophet, Lyris, Abnar, Sai, Molag Bal, Meridia, Cadwell, Jyggalag, and possibly Mannimarco.

If you're in a Dragon break, you can't tell you are in a Dragon break. Plus it explains how the lore on vampires flipped and gets re-flipped.

No. And the devs do indeed play their own game, regardless of how many forum warriors pretend otherwise. And the the devs gave a lore friendly reason why they changed it. Just because you don't like it or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's not true.

prof-dracko

Given how few events are referenced in other games (although I know they came first and can't exactly be "ret-conned") and how everything is apparently taking place in the same year, I'd say that it IS a dragon break, where everything is able to happen at the same time, but still in a linear order. Just because the dev's said it earlier doesn't mean they can't change their minds about it later. Besides, with the amount of quests involving temporo-spacial distortions it's hard not to imagine some kind of messed timeline.

Pinja

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

NoodleESO wrote: »

@ManwithBeard9

Sorry but that just what someone in a dragon break would say.

Its been said the Devs don't play their own game so that would mean they are in the break. The only people outside of the break when it happened are: The Player, the Prophet, Lyris, Abnar, Sai, Molag Bal, Meridia, Cadwell, Jyggalag, and possibly Mannimarco.

If you're in a Dragon break, you can't tell you are in a Dragon break. Plus it explains how the lore on vampires flipped and gets re-flipped.

No. And the devs do indeed play their own game, regardless of how many forum warriors pretend otherwise. And the the devs gave a lore friendly reason why they changed it. Just because you don't like it or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's not true.

But if canon is the order of events the player takes, there clearly is some time distortion going on with doing summer set before clockwork. In addition to WGT, and the great anchor.

Not to mention the dead and banished coming back as their regular selves. Only thing with op theory is their not all on the same linear progression. The hero of Daggerfall came back as an undead Necromancer, and the Hero of the dominion came back with war stories.

But as the Op says when your in a Dragon Break your in alternate realities with no true way to tell whats the true timeline is.
As a matter it's more likely Visage doesn't exist and is in the falsified timeline which is why the world can exsist in so many variants, and more importantly why visage can do something to have nothing happen. As the timeline that ends the dragon break is the conquering time line. With Matt saying no such thing exists in the game it's evident Visage is not the savior of Nirn who ends the madness. Rather they are a placebo to an existence were time has gone mad. The only one and only place were Visage might actually exist is Morrowind. If I'm remembering the lore right Vivic is the only one who can actually protect himself and his relm from a dragon break. But with his powers waning do to the false Nerevarine, it's possible even Vivic was susceptible to this time break.

ssewallb14_ESO

Time is severely fractured around Cyrodiil and the alliance war is just many alternate versions of the Vestige change my mind.

Iccotak

Pinja wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

NoodleESO wrote: »

@ManwithBeard9

Sorry but that just what someone in a dragon break would say.

Its been said the Devs don't play their own game so that would mean they are in the break. The only people outside of the break when it happened are: The Player, the Prophet, Lyris, Abnar, Sai, Molag Bal, Meridia, Cadwell, Jyggalag, and possibly Mannimarco.

If you're in a Dragon break, you can't tell you are in a Dragon break. Plus it explains how the lore on vampires flipped and gets re-flipped.

No. And the devs do indeed play their own game, regardless of how many forum warriors pretend otherwise. And the the devs gave a lore friendly reason why they changed it. Just because you don't like it or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's not true.

But if canon is the order of events the player takes, there clearly is some time distortion going on with doing summer set before clockwork. In addition to WGT, and the great anchor.

No, players are free to play the DLC because ZOS value player freedom but they have stated that what's going on in Elsweyr and Greymoor is after the Planemeld

This is why ZOS should implement a story guide just as there is a zone guide

Pinja

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Time is severely fractured around Cyrodiil and the alliance war is just many alternate versions of the Vestige change my mind.

The moment the tower fell it activated a dragon break to prevent Nirn from getting sucked into Coldharbor. It's why there's no giant whole in the Nobles district of the Imperial city. The battlefield is in the game on the North west corner of the island, burnt and everything, but the events of time afterwards escape ESO.

idk

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

No, ESO is not involved in any sort or dragon break. Matt Firor stated it himself- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/b7cc1f/eso_is_not_in_a_dragon_break/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

The "3 Fates" cinematics and following Chapter ones are not canon and purely theatrical purposes.

Thew devs have also stated that the timeline for ESO canon TOO THE PLAYER. Whatever order you play the content in is what is canon in your storyline.

Wasn't Matt Firor also behind the statement that Dragons will not be in ESO yet we now have dragons? I cannot recall if it was him specifically but it was an official stance of Zos back in 2014.

When Zos makes a statement we can be certain of nothing. I could name some things like no to alliance change just a year ago or that SIX years ago we were getting Spell Crafting, but the list could get very long.

With many different aspects of the game, the devs have gone back on their statements. As someone how used to say, but Matt or Rich said so, I do not think that holds much water anymore. The dragons kind of killed that.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

Pinja

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

And yet the staff of towers was used and reveled a clean white gold tower immune to the effects of the Plane meld, even when Josajeh comes back as a Worm cultest. Meaning the tower in the true version of it outside of time or the dragon break, never fell to Daedra. It was outside of Visage's time in the true timeline, which is why you see how time changes.

Just because a talking skull who can't tell a man from a monkey, warns of a dragon break that doesn't mean one isn't occurring. Remembering that part of the incantation that powers the staff of towers attunes it to the white gold tower, probably in part to bind it to Nirn and space and thus time.
If your run space backwards do you run back time? If you just take a clock and wind it forward did you move time forward but slow down space?

What Josajeh did was just create more alterations in an already occurring dragon break. It's why time didn't change the moment she changed time because you were already in/ from a planer bound version of time.

If we observe other forms of time alterations such as the Glenumbra moores incident you'll see time updates in a parallel skip in the elder scrolls meaning. Meaning Visage would immediately no longer exist when Josajeh changed time. The only reason why they did is because there was a dragon break and time was already layered.

IE: Josajeh when back in time preventing the plane meld, she came from a time line that required the plane meld to exist in order for visage to acquire the staff of Towers. Rather than an alternate set of events occur like in the case of Glenumbra moores, due to time already being unraveled from the dragon break that resulted from the tower defending itself from the soul meld, Visage's time line was protected and layered by a power that rivaled the staff. Even when some else is trying to change time the tower is changing time into another version of events to not get sucked into Coldharbor.

Kadoozy

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

No, ESO is not involved in any sort or dragon break. Matt Firor stated it himself- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/b7cc1f/eso_is_not_in_a_dragon_break/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

The "3 Fates" cinematics and following Chapter ones are not canon and purely theatrical purposes.

Thew devs have also stated that the timeline for ESO canon TOO THE PLAYER. Whatever order you play the content in is what is canon in your storyline.

Yeah well they also said spell crafting was coming to eso like 6 years ago and we still haven't seen it, so don't take everything they say as gospel. They change their minds like farts in the wind.

Honestly the only thing that explains the messed up story of eso is a dragon break. And I guarantee that is how they will spin it in the end.

PrayingSeraph

The devs have said no dragonbreak so unless they change their mind, the idea its a dragon break is fanon not canon. Not to mention the devs have indeed stated a chronological order of the story content, something that wouldnt make sense if eso was a dragonbreak.

As for why future games dont reference the events of eso, this was already clarified at launch of the game. The interregnum is basically the dark ages of Tamriel, where much history gets lost. This is like the real life dark ages, where much history then was lost. That is why its called the "dark ages" by historians(not because of an unpleasant era). Not to mention, just because we the player dont come across writings that reference ESO events in other games does not mean no one in tamriel knows of said events.

As for the cinematic trailers, those aren't canon. They are well made and very entertaining, but not canon. They are marketing material...

SpiderKnight

Pinja wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

And yet the staff of towers was used and reveled a clean white gold tower immune to the effects of the Plane meld, even when Josajeh comes back as a Worm cultest. Meaning the tower in the true version of it outside of time or the dragon break, never fell to Daedra. It was outside of Visage's time in the true timeline, which is why you see how time changes.

Just because a talking skull who can't tell a man from a monkey, warns of a dragon break that doesn't mean one isn't occurring. Remembering that part of the incantation that powers the staff of towers attunes it to the white gold tower, probably in part to bind it to Nirn and space and thus time.
If your run space backwards do you run back time? If you just take a clock and wind it forward did you move time forward but slow down space?

What Josajeh did was just create more alterations in an already occurring dragon break. It's why time didn't change the moment she changed time because you were already in/ from a planer bound version of time.

If we observe other forms of time alterations such as the Glenumbra moores incident you'll see time updates in a parallel skip in the elder scrolls meaning. Meaning Visage would immediately no longer exist when Josajeh changed time. The only reason why they did is because there was a dragon break and time was already layered.

IE: Josajeh when back in time preventing the plane meld, she came from a time line that required the plane meld to exist in order for visage to acquire the staff of Towers. Rather than an alternate set of events occur like in the case of Glenumbra moores, due to time already being unraveled from the dragon break that resulted from the tower defending itself from the soul meld, Visage's time line was protected and layered by a power that rivaled the staff. Even when some else is trying to change time the tower is changing time into another version of events to not get sucked into Coldharbor.

There's no freaking dragon break! Get over it.
And it's VESTIGE...not visage.

Red_Feather

I like the topic's idea. It turns a mess in this game into something really cool.

Sephyr

SpiderKnight wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

And yet the staff of towers was used and reveled a clean white gold tower immune to the effects of the Plane meld, even when Josajeh comes back as a Worm cultest. Meaning the tower in the true version of it outside of time or the dragon break, never fell to Daedra. It was outside of Visage's time in the true timeline, which is why you see how time changes.

Just because a talking skull who can't tell a man from a monkey, warns of a dragon break that doesn't mean one isn't occurring. Remembering that part of the incantation that powers the staff of towers attunes it to the white gold tower, probably in part to bind it to Nirn and space and thus time.
If your run space backwards do you run back time? If you just take a clock and wind it forward did you move time forward but slow down space?

What Josajeh did was just create more alterations in an already occurring dragon break. It's why time didn't change the moment she changed time because you were already in/ from a planer bound version of time.

If we observe other forms of time alterations such as the Glenumbra moores incident you'll see time updates in a parallel skip in the elder scrolls meaning. Meaning Visage would immediately no longer exist when Josajeh changed time. The only reason why they did is because there was a dragon break and time was already layered.

IE: Josajeh when back in time preventing the plane meld, she came from a time line that required the plane meld to exist in order for visage to acquire the staff of Towers. Rather than an alternate set of events occur like in the case of Glenumbra moores, due to time already being unraveled from the dragon break that resulted from the tower defending itself from the soul meld, Visage's time line was protected and layered by a power that rivaled the staff. Even when some else is trying to change time the tower is changing time into another version of events to not get sucked into Coldharbor.

There's no freaking dragon break! Get over it.
And it's VESTIGE...not visage.

Michelle "Vestige" Visage would like to have a word with you. >:(

NoodleESO

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

That reminds me, when the player completes the quest line they are given a choice of where to send the Augur. But when you turn the quest in you are given the Augur as a furnishing, and it states that the Augur decided to stick with you the player.

This is the first time the player is asked to make a choice after the activation of The Staff of Towers and the Augur could possibly be in all three places at the same time. (with the monks, Josajeh, and the player).

I suspect we will be hearing from the Augur again very soon since this is probably making it very uncomfortable for him!

fastolfv_ESO

ofcourse theres a dragon break, i mean ffs theres time travel in greymoor just assume everything you do is not going to be in es history

starkerealm

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

As a structural event, the presence of a player character dictates the existence of a Dragon Break.

Dragon Breaks are events where time splinters into multiple, simultaneous, and mutually exclusive, possibilities, before re-solidifying at the other end.

This, literally means, unless the player is on very tight rails for where to go and what to do, there is a dragon break in processes.

So, for example, in TES5, if you kill Alduin, and then reload an old save, you can kill him again. Time has just split into two separate possibilities. The abandoned save becomes a dead end which won't be reconciled, while the save you continue with will be reunified with all other completed playthroughs of Skyrim.

The Vestige cannot reload an old save and fight Molag Bal again, so you cannot have a splintered, failed, timeline. Except, you have up to 18 Vestiges per account; all of them can fight Molag Bal, and all of my characters can fight Molag Bal. That's up to 36 characters who have participated in the exact same fight. In the end, those timelines reconcile and we have a narrative that The Vestige defeated Molag Bal and ended the planemeld, except it's scattered across millions of possible timelines. That's a Dragon Break.

In fact, if you accept that it's a Dragon Break, the return of Lyris and Sai Sahan makes a lot more sense, because the reconciliation of the Planemeld break would require them to be alive. Similarly why Raz and Naryu can recognize you in The Gold Coast, even though Cadwell's Gold/Silver explicitly tells you that you'll be in a parallel timeline while you're in the other alliances' zones. They both recognize you because you've reconciled that Dragon Break.

This leads to an even more disturbing possibility: Dragon Breaks can intersect with one another, and do not need to start from a clean slate, as the Planemeld break is already reconciling during the events of ESO, while we are still clearly in another break.

PrayingSeraph

starkerealm wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

Unless you can have a dragon break within a dragon break, Summerset confirms that we are not in one during the events of the game. The Augur of the Obscure warns the player that using the staff of towers would cause a dragon break.

As a structural event, the presence of a player character dictates the existence of a Dragon Break.

Dragon Breaks are events where time splinters into multiple, simultaneous, and mutually exclusive, possibilities, before re-solidifying at the other end.

This, literally means, unless the player is on very tight rails for where to go and what to do, there is a dragon break in processes.

So, for example, in TES5, if you kill Alduin, and then reload an old save, you can kill him again. Time has just split into two separate possibilities. The abandoned save becomes a dead end which won't be reconciled, while the save you continue with will be reunified with all other completed playthroughs of Skyrim.

The Vestige cannot reload an old save and fight Molag Bal again, so you cannot have a splintered, failed, timeline. Except, you have up to 18 Vestiges per account; all of them can fight Molag Bal, and all of my characters can fight Molag Bal. That's up to 36 characters who have participated in the exact same fight. In the end, those timelines reconcile and we have a narrative that The Vestige defeated Molag Bal and ended the planemeld, except it's scattered across millions of possible timelines. That's a Dragon Break.

In fact, if you accept that it's a Dragon Break, the return of Lyris and Sai Sahan makes a lot more sense, because the reconciliation of the Planemeld break would require them to be alive. Similarly why Raz and Naryu can recognize you in The Gold Coast, even though Cadwell's Gold/Silver explicitly tells you that you'll be in a parallel timeline while you're in the other alliances' zones. They both recognize you because you've reconciled that Dragon Break.

This leads to an even more disturbing possibility: Dragon Breaks can intersect with one another, and do not need to start from a clean slate, as the Planemeld break is already reconciling during the events of ESO, while we are still clearly in another break.

You are combining gameplay and out of world factors with in game lore. How every person interprets their character and role is up to them, but its not canon. More headcanon than anything, which is what the devs want.

My orc dragonborn and altmer dragonborn dont simutaneously exist, rather "a dragonborn" exists and we personally fill in the specifics.

And noted above by dev comments, ESO has no dragon breaks l. Unless they change there mind, it stands. Combine this with their statements on story order, dragonbreak doesnt exist in ESO.

starkerealm

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

You are combining gameplay and out of world factors with in game lore.

Correct. Though, in this case, credit for this specific system goes to Michael Kirkbride, and his contribution to the lore in TES3.

Dragon Breaks were originally designed and implemented into the lore to accommodate the multiple end states in TES2. You can see an explicit description of this in The Warp in the West from Oblivion.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

How every person interprets their character and role is up to them, but its not canon. More headcanon than anything, which is what the devs want.

This is correct. However your character does exist canonically. Whatever they believe is up for debate, and can become non-canon, however, their canonical existence is irrefutable.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

My orc dragonborn and altmer dragonborn dont simutaneously exist, rather "a dragonborn" exists and we personally fill in the specifics.

The Last Dragonborn is a singular character. While their gender and race is indeterminate within the break.

They also, as a function of the calendar, must exist simultaneously. Each of your dragonborn, each of mine, and nearly every itteration of The Last dragonborn was dragged into Helgen on the 17th of Last Seed, 4e201. What happened after that won't align in a clean timeline, but, that starting point means that (without using mods or console commands to break continuity), all of your characters coexisted at least once.

Even if one of them died during their escape from Helgen, both of them existed on that date in that place. They are separate timelines, but they do exist simultaneously.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

And noted above by dev comments, ESO has no dragon breaks l. Unless they change there mind, it stands. Combine this with their statements on story order, dragonbreak doesnt exist in ESO.

With respect to Matt, yeah, what we have now only makes sense within a context of a Dragon Break. Unless you genuinely believe that the canonical version of events has Sai being constantly recaptured, tortured for years, and rescued again by different Vestiges. Even within the context of walking around in any overland zone, you're surrounded by people who are, in fact, you. Different, equally canonical, reflections of your character.

PrayingSeraph

starkerealm wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

You are combining gameplay and out of world factors with in game lore.

Correct. Though, in this case, credit for this specific system goes to Michael Kirkbride, and his contribution to the lore in TES3.

Dragon Breaks were originally designed and implemented into the lore to accommodate the multiple end states in TES2. You can see an explicit description of this in The Warp in the West from Oblivion.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

How every person interprets their character and role is up to them, but its not canon. More headcanon than anything, which is what the devs want.

This is correct. However your character does exist canonically. Whatever they believe is up for debate, and can become non-canon, however, their canonical existence is irrefutable.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

My orc dragonborn and altmer dragonborn dont simutaneously exist, rather "a dragonborn" exists and we personally fill in the specifics.

The Last Dragonborn is a singular character. While their gender and race is indeterminate within the break.

They also, as a function of the calendar, must exist simultaneously. Each of your dragonborn, each of mine, and nearly every itteration of The Last dragonborn was dragged into Helgen on the 17th of Last Seed, 4e201. What happened after that won't align in a clean timeline, but, that starting point means that (without using mods or console commands to break continuity), all of your characters coexisted at least once.

Even if one of them died during their escape from Helgen, both of them existed on that date in that place. They are separate timelines, but they do exist simultaneously.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

And noted above by dev comments, ESO has no dragon breaks l. Unless they change there mind, it stands. Combine this with their statements on story order, dragonbreak doesnt exist in ESO.

With respect to Matt, yeah, what we have now only makes sense within a context of a Dragon Break. Unless you genuinely believe that the canonical version of events has Sai being constantly recaptured, tortured for years, and rescued again by different Vestiges. Even within the context of walking around in any overland zone, you're surrounded by people who are, in fact, you. Different, equally canonical, reflections of your character.

Dragonbreak was invented to reconcile the Daggerfall 2 endings. Daggerfall is unique in TES because each path leads to drastically different outcomes, ones that could not really be reconciled through vague references in future games. Since Daggerfall, the choices in each elder scrolls game have been relatively small in impact. The story and events are largely the same no matter what choices you make in each game. Post Daggerfall games have clarified that the events of Daggerfall were a dragonbreak, through Warp in the West. No "warp in the west" equivalent has ever come out to reference other games as a dragon break.

As for your second paragraph, no your character doesn't exist canonically. The Last Dragonborn exists canonically, but every persons interpretation/version of last dragonborn is headcanon, not canon.

As for your third paragraph, no, your characters dont exist simutaneously. Again, the specifics of them dont exist in canon, only head canon. We create our own dragonborn but that dragonborn doesnt exist in a actual canon. And there isn't a dragonbreak, so there are not different versions of the last dragonborn existing simutaneously.

Regarding your final paragraph, Cadwells silver and gold were poorly implemented lore wise, obviously trying to appease player demand when the story wasnt originally written to include them. We do know Meridia has some kind of time related magic, as seen with cadwells silver/gold and the description of experience scrolls, and that she can mask the nature of the vestige to the opposing alliances, but its fairly vague. What we do know is that Matt said mo dragonbreak and ZoS have clarified that there is indeed a proper story order, but that players have the freedom to ignore that for gameplay purposes. Had there been a dragonbreak, its very unlikely ZoS would make a story order and instead just say "dragonbreak". They have had countless opportunities to chalk up ESO to dragonbreak but they have not, and instead said no its not a dragon break. This interview with Matt is relatively recent too, its not like this was said pre release or before cadwells silver/gold was invented.

And to clarify, cadwells silver/gold *could* work as a dragonbreak, but post vanilla storyline/zones would not need a dragonbreak to make sense.

And no, other players walking around in the zone are not canon vestiges. That again is confusing gameplay with lore. They exist no more in lore than my characters amazing invisible backpack that can hold countless beds, armors, weapons, freaking boulders etc. There is not a canonical emperor named "Xx Epic KillzxX" for example.

If I were to guess, are you a Kirkbride fan/follower? Just curious

Foefaller

starkerealm wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

You are combining gameplay and out of world factors with in game lore.

Correct. Though, in this case, credit for this specific system goes to Michael Kirkbride, and his contribution to the lore in TES3.

Dragon Breaks were originally designed and implemented into the lore to accommodate the multiple end states in TES2. You can see an explicit description of this in The Warp in the West from Oblivion.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

How every person interprets their character and role is up to them, but its not canon. More headcanon than anything, which is what the devs want.

This is correct. However your character does exist canonically. Whatever they believe is up for debate, and can become non-canon, however, their canonical existence is irrefutable.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

My orc dragonborn and altmer dragonborn dont simutaneously exist, rather "a dragonborn" exists and we personally fill in the specifics.

The Last Dragonborn is a singular character. While their gender and race is indeterminate within the break.

They also, as a function of the calendar, must exist simultaneously. Each of your dragonborn, each of mine, and nearly every itteration of The Last dragonborn was dragged into Helgen on the 17th of Last Seed, 4e201. What happened after that won't align in a clean timeline, but, that starting point means that (without using mods or console commands to break continuity), all of your characters coexisted at least once.

Even if one of them died during their escape from Helgen, both of them existed on that date in that place. They are separate timelines, but they do exist simultaneously.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

And noted above by dev comments, ESO has no dragon breaks l. Unless they change there mind, it stands. Combine this with their statements on story order, dragonbreak doesnt exist in ESO.

With respect to Matt, yeah, what we have now only makes sense within a context of a Dragon Break. Unless you genuinely believe that the canonical version of events has Sai being constantly recaptured, tortured for years, and rescued again by different Vestiges. Even within the context of walking around in any overland zone, you're surrounded by people who are, in fact, you. Different, equally canonical, reflections of your character.

...Except the Dragon Break has been invoked *only* for Daggerfall. No book or person in Oblivion talks about a Dragon Break happening in Morrowind, and nothing in Skyrim talks about one happening in Oblivion either.

Not to mention some of the few set things that showed up later in Skyrim. If all the permutations of Morrowind played out, why is Neloth alive, and not bitching about versions of events where the Neravarine killed him as a member of the Mage's Guild? (because accounts seem to comfirm people are aware of the conflicting timelines occuring, at least after the fact when looking at what's left over, and we all know Neloth would bring that up *constantly*)

Dragon Breaks aren't something in the game lore that happen with noone the wiser, they're things that happen which leave everyone affected going "What. The. F? Did we just see multiple Numidiums duking it out? Armies fighting battles at opposite sides of the Bay simultaneously? That the Septim Dynasty and the Third Era ended, only for it to have not happen, but then *actually* happen years later?" I feel the last bit is important, because it isn't just causality that's getting smashed, the amount of actual timed that passed can be messed with as well. (More than a bit of evidence that the 1008 years for the Middle Dawn was something pulled out of the ass of historians, and let's not even get to the Numidium as presented in the C0DA.)

It seems like a lot of people think Bethesda/ZOE are justifing everything they do with "Dragon Break!" Except that ignores that the few (read; one) times that's actually been invoked, it leaves a very, *very* obvious mark on the lore.

starkerealm

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Dragonbreak was invented to reconcile the Daggerfall 2 endings. Daggerfall is unique in TES because each path leads to drastically different outcomes, ones that could not really be reconciled through vague references in future games. Since Daggerfall, the choices in each elder scrolls game have been relatively small in impact. The story and events are largely the same no matter what choices you make in each game. Post Daggerfall games have clarified that the events of Daggerfall were a dragonbreak, through Warp in the West. No "warp in the west" equivalent has ever come out to reference other games as a dragon break.

This only indicates that the consequences of the Dragonbreak were so severe as to be impossible to ignore. Note that Warp in The West specifically talks about how the events of Daggerfall were inexplicable, but that there was no understanding for how these events could have happened.

Then remember that the differences between later games will be much more subtle.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

As for your second paragraph, no your character doesn't exist canonically. The Last Dragonborn exists canonically, but every persons interpretation/version of last dragonborn is headcanon, not canon.

So, which is it? Is The Last Dragonborn canonical or not? Because your characters are The Last Dragonborn.

Here's where you're making a serious mistake. Headcanon is when you invent something wholesale, or assume something that is not explicitly supported by the material.

For example, if you hold that The Ebony Warrior is Raymon Ebonarm, based on the information you have, that would be a headcanon. It's not established in the game, and we have no way of learning who The Ebony Warrior is.

What is confirmed are the things we see. To carry that example a little further, The Ebony Warrior is canon. His identity is left to speculation, and unconfirmed, however, his existence is canon.

Similarly, The Last Dragonborn is canon. No matter what you think, the character exists in TES5. However, The Last Dragonborn can be of any race or gender. That is also canon.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

As for your third paragraph, no, your characters dont exist simutaneously.

Okay, so I'm going to have to explain this to you. "Simultaneous," simply means, "at the same time." When you say, "these two characters don't exist at the same time," you're incorrect. Based on the in-game date and time provided, they do exist at the same moments.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Again, the specifics of them dont exist in canon, only head canon.

Again, if the race you're selecting is a legitimate choice in the game, that's not a "head canon." For example, if you decided your Altmer was half-Maomer, that is head canon. There is no support for it in game.

If you installed a mod allowing you to play as a Maomer, that would be non-canonical. You're no longer experiencing the game as designed.

However, if you select one of the ten default, races, that is your canonical choice.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

We create our own dragonborn but that dragonborn doesnt exist in a actual canon. And there isn't a dragonbreak, so there are not different versions of the last dragonborn existing simutaneously.

The only evidence here is circular. "Because it doesn't exist, therefore it can't exist." Which falls apart the instant you click new game, and your character does exist.

In that moment, your character becomes a canonical part of the story. You cannot remove your character without ending the world. By your own admission The Last Dragonborn is canon, but if your character is The Last Dragonborn, your character is canon.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Regarding your final paragraph, Cadwells silver and gold were poorly implemented lore wise...

Unfortunately for you, this is irrelevant, and you're engaging in head canon right now. Silver and Gold are part of the game. They are canon. Canon is not about picking and choosing what you like, it's understand that the entirety of the work is part of the work.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

...obviously trying to appease player demand when the story wasnt originally written to include them.

This is irrelevant.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

We do know Meridia has some kind of time related magic, as seen with cadwells silver/gold and the description of experience scrolls, and that she can mask the nature of the vestige to the opposing alliances, but its fairly vague.

This is correct. We can also, reasonably, infer that the alliance story lines are mutually exclusive. One of the clearest examples of this Salas En and Ne Salas. These events are mutually exclusive as both end with the destruction of the portal connecting the ruins.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

What we do know is that Matt said mo dragonbreak and ZoS have clarified that there is indeed a proper story order, but that players have the freedom to ignore that for gameplay purposes.

This has changed a couple times. We've been told that there was a specific chronology, and that time was moving forward through the course of new content. We've been told that everything is happening at the same time (Rich around the release of Morrowind.)

So, I'll tell you what Jeremy and Finn have both told me on different subjects, "It's a different game now." ESO has changed dramatically over the years, and not everything that was said still holds true. This is especially true of things from back around, (and before), release.

Rich, actually got into some trouble from Matt or Paul Sage back in 2013 because he wouldn't get on board with the hard, "no dragons," line.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Had there been a dragonbreak, its very unlikely ZoS would make a story order and instead just say "dragonbreak".

Well, we'll just ignore the part where they have said that there is no order, and focus on the part where, even within a Dragon Break, perceived time flows in a linear pattern.

The thing about this is, people put a lot more expectation into what the feel a Dragon Break "should be," when we've seen the confirmed reality of it, and it's pretty mundane.

Even if you step back from the idea that any other game the franchise has a Break, and only scrutinize Daggerfall, you'll pretty quickly realize that "at street level," Dragon Breaks are pretty uninspiring. It gets talked up as some monumental, reality shaking, event, but they're more whimper than bang. And that's from the perspective of the Break we can confirm without question.

The other games (with the exception of Redguard), consistent with what we see in Daggerfall.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

They have had countless opportunities to chalk up ESO to dragonbreak but they have not, and instead said no its not a dragon break. This interview with Matt is relatively recent too, its not like this was said pre release or before cadwells silver/gold was invented.

And to clarify, cadwells silver/gold *could* work as a dragonbreak, but post vanilla storyline/zones would not need a dragonbreak to make sense.

In point of fact, it would require a Dragon Break. The events of Messages Across Tamriel take place after the main quest lines for all three factions. This includes dialog from rulers referencing your actions in those stories, even if you haven't played through them. (For example: Jorunn will refer to a Dominion character as Ayrenn's champion even if you've never become an Eye of the Queen.)

All three storylines take place during the final year of the Planemeld crisis, Coldharbour concludes the Planemeld, but Silver and Gold require you to complete God of Schemes which, in turn, requires you to have completed Coldharbour to some degree.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

And no, other players walking around in the zone are not canon vestiges. That again is confusing gameplay with lore.

No, it's deliberately looking at lore and gameplay and realizing that, unless gameplay explicitly states it needs to conflict with lore, it does not.

For example, self-reviving for player characters is a gameplay consideration, but it is specifically given a lore explanation as well. What is not explained is how players who have not completed Soul Shriven in Coldharbour can have the soul magic skill line.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

They exist no more in lore than my characters amazing invisible backpack that can hold countless beds, armors, weapons, freaking boulders etc. There is not a canonical emperor named "Xx Epic KillzxX" for example.

Since you're so fond of bringing up lines from the developers, yeah they are.

It was specifically stated, back around release that if you became Emperor in ESO, you were actually one of the many "Emperors," who seized the throne during The Three Banners War, and became part of the history of The Elder Scrolls.

So, congrats to Emperor Epic Killz, and his 13 minute rule, before he was cruelly beaten to death by the Dominion Night Cappers.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

If I were to guess, are you a Kirkbride fan/follower? Just curious

Not really. Morrowind elevated The Elder Scrolls' into something truly unique, but Kirkbride was just a part of that. Ken Rolston doesn't get enough credit, and was at least as influential. Kirkbride tends to go way too far into the domain of toad licking for its own sake. Rolston has a very grounded approach to fantasy, which reigned in a lot of Kirkbride's crazier impulses. I really have no interest in C0DA, for example. It's just TES fanfiction, regardless who wrote it. That said, a lot of stuff that Kirkbride wrote grounds TES's game mechanics into the more esoteric elements of the world's metaphysics. This where the Dragon Breaks came from. The idea that they'd need to justify the events of TES2, but in the processes, Kirkbride's stranger impulses won out.

starkerealm

Foefaller wrote: »

(More than a bit of evidence that the 1008 years for the Middle Dawn was something pulled out of the ass of historians, and let's not even get to the Numidium as presented in the C0DA.)

Yeah, let's really not.

Foefaller wrote: »

It seems like a lot of people think Bethesda/ZOE are justifing everything they do with "Dragon Break!" Except that ignores that the few (read; one) times that's actually been invoked, it leaves a very, *very* obvious mark on the lore.

Three explicit invocations, and two more suspected ones. The suspected ones are where we end up with the, "wait, what?" Daggerfall is one, and the most recent confirmed. There's also The Middle Dawn, and The Time Wound... ironically the Time Wound does explicitly tie into Skyrim (4e201), but it happened in the Mytheric. It's also possible that Time Wounds are technically something else, so one of those confirmed is a question mark. There's also mentions of a Dragon Break associated with Pelinal Whitestrake, though I can't remember if that's canon or Kirkbride going for a loop right now.

Ironically, citing Re-Examined, you've got a book that talks about the fall of the Septum Dynasty before it happened. So, either the author was delusional, the date on the book was wrong, or time is a little more malleable in Tamriel than we're used to.

With that said, ZOS has been remarkably restrained about bringing out the idea of a Break. They're supposed to be major events, except the actual explanation we're given, and first hand experience from Daggerfall is somewhat underwhelming.

Foefaller wrote: »

Not to mention some of the few set things that showed up later in Skyrim. If all the permutations of Morrowind played out, why is Neloth alive, and not bitching about versions of events where the Neravarine killed him as a member of the Mage's Guild? (because accounts seem to comfirm people are aware of the conflicting timelines occuring, at least after the fact when looking at what's left over, and we all know Neloth would bring that up *constantly*)

This is a very good point, except, Neloth is also mercurial in what piques his ire. It would probably be true that he'd still harbor a grudge even after two centuries, but that doesn't mean he'd flip out at the player character on sight.

There's also a weirdness with Neloth's dialog. When asked about the Nerevarine, he'll refer to them as male, however, the audio was (apparently) recorded for him to refer to them as female. The Unofficial Patch team seemed to think this was a bug, but I don't feel like pulling apart the files, right now, to see what they did.

PrayingSeraph

starkerealm wrote: »

This only indicates that the consequences of the Dragonbreak were so severe as to be impossible to ignore. Note that Warp in The West specifically talks about how the events of Daggerfall were inexplicable, but that there was no understanding for how these events could have happened.

Then remember that the differences between later games will be much more subtle.

So one thing I notice is that you seem to assume a dragon break in post Daggerfall games yet provide no proof or evidence to back up such claims. The burden of proof is on you. It's not my job to prove they didnt happen, rather its your job to prove they did. The dragonbreak we know most of was the Daggerfall one, and that was extremely noticeable to tramriel's denizens.

starkerealm wrote: »

So, which is it? Is The Last Dragonborn canonical or not? Because your characters are The Last Dragonborn.

Here's where you're making a serious mistake. Headcanon is when you invent something wholesale, or assume something that is not explicitly supported by the material.

For example, if you hold that The Ebony Warrior is Raymon Ebonarm, based on the information you have, that would be a headcanon. It's not established in the game, and we have no way of learning who The Ebony Warrior is.

What is confirmed are the things we see. To carry that example a little further, The Ebony Warrior is canon. His identity is left to speculation, and unconfirmed, however, his existence is canon.

Similarly, The Last Dragonborn is canon. No matter what you think, the character exists in TES5. However, The Last Dragonborn can be of any race or gender. That is also canon.

The Last Dragonborn is canon but our own dragonborns are not. The figure and the events of the game are canon, but the details on said dragonborn are not. I am getting the feeling that you are misunderstanding what canon actually is. I'll quote Wikipedia to explain...

"In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in the fictional universe of that story. It is often contrasted with, or used as the basis for, works of fan fiction. The alternative terms mythology, timeline, universe and continuity are often used, with the first of these being used especially to refer to a richly detailed fictional canon requiring a large degree of suspension of disbelief (e.g. an entire imaginary world and history), while the latter two typically refer to a single arc where all events are directly connected chronologically. Other times, the word can mean "to be acknowledged by the creator(s)". Influential or widely accepted fan theories may be referred as "fanon", a portmanteau of fan and canon. Alternatively, the term "headcanon" is used to describe a fan's own interpretation of a fictional universe."

In other words, the Last Dragonborn is a canon figure who's exploits affect the story and history of tamriel, but our own individual interpretations of said figure is headcanon to us an individuals, and is not part of the official material. Yes, the dragonborn can be any race or gender, but they have no canon race or gender. That gap is for the players to fill in with their own headcanon. All we know is the Last Dragonborn existed, defeated Alduin, saved Tamriel and the etc. THAT is the canon, not your personal created character. You said it yourself, headcanon is assuming something not explicitly supported by the material. No customizable TES protagonist has ever had their race or gender established by canon. We know the Champion of Cyrodiil existed, they are canon, but their race and gender are not canon. Yes, they could be of any gender or race, but there is no canon gender or race

starkerealm wrote: »

Again, if the race you're selecting is a legitimate choice in the game, that's not a "head canon." For example, if you decided your Altmer was half-Maomer, that is head canon. There is no support for it in game.

If you installed a mod allowing you to play as a Maomer, that would be non-canonical. You're no longer experiencing the game as designed.

However, if you select one of the ten default, races, that is your canonical choice.

You are missing my point. Yes, the last dragonborn could be of any of the 10 races, but there is no canon race for them. There is no established material that states the race or gender of any customizable TES protagonist and there is no clarification for the developers stating anything such. Therefor, while the figure of the protagonists and their exploits are canon, the details about them that we each create are not.

starkerealm wrote: »

The only evidence here is circular. "Because it doesn't exist, therefore it can't exist." Which falls apart the instant you click new game, and your character does exist.

In that moment, your character becomes a canonical part of the story. You cannot remove your character without ending the world. By your own admission The Last Dragonborn is canon, but if your character is The Last Dragonborn, your character is canon.

You have not provided any proof that any other game besides Daggerfall involve a dragonbreak. Until you do so, and I'm pretty positive you cannot, the fact remains that Last Dragonborn at no point had multiple versions of them simultaneously existing. Your altmer dragonborn and orsimer dragbonborn didn't both exist in the canon. You can insert one of them into your own headcanon on who the Last Dragonborn was, that's it. To have both existing in canon would require a dragonbreak, which there is no evidence of such existing in Skyrim.

starkerealm wrote: »

Unfortunately for you, this is irrelevant, and you're engaging in head canon right now. Silver and Gold are part of the game. They are canon. Canon is not about picking and choosing what you like, it's understand that the entirety of the work is part of the work.

Why unfortunately for me? I never said islver and gold were not part of the game. I was stating out of universe why its messy, and continue on explaining that word of god confirms that whatever silver and gold are, they are not a dragonbreak.

starkerealm wrote: »

This has changed a couple times. We've been told that there was a specific chronology, and that time was moving forward through the course of new content. We've been told that everything is happening at the same time (Rich around the release of Morrowind.)

So, I'll tell you what Jeremy and Finn have both told me on different subjects, "It's a different game now." ESO has changed dramatically over the years, and not everything that was said still holds true. This is especially true of things from back around, (and before), release.

Rich, actually got into some trouble from Matt or Paul Sage back in 2013 because he wouldn't get on board with the hard, "no dragons," line..

That is irrelevant. Right now, "word of god" states no dragonbreak, so unless that changes in the future, that is the current canon. This isn't a matter of preference, this is the current canon reality of ESO whether any of us like it or not. If that changes in the future, then fair enough! But right now, ESO isn't a dragonbreak.

starkerealm wrote: »

Well, we'll just ignore the part where they have said that there is no order, and focus on the part where, even within a Dragon Break, perceived time flows in a linear pattern.

Again that's irrelevant. Take Hideo Kojima and the Metal Gear series. Many times throughout that long histories franchise Kojima changed his mind on the lore. That doesn't mean that when he changes it, we ought to ignore it because he's changed his mind before. That doesn't matter. So unless ZoS change their mind, ESO isn't a dragonbreak.

starkerealm wrote: »

The thing about this is, people put a lot more expectation into what the feel a Dragon Break "should be," when we've seen the confirmed reality of it, and it's pretty mundane.

Even if you step back from the idea that any other game the franchise has a Break, and only scrutinize Daggerfall, you'll pretty quickly realize that "at street level," Dragon Breaks are pretty uninspiring. It gets talked up as some monumental, reality shaking, event, but they're more whimper than bang. And that's from the perspective of the Break we can confirm without question.

The other games (with the exception of Redguard), consistent with what we see in Daggerfall.

Do they have a massive impact on the timeline? No. Are they very noticeable to the inhabitants of tamriel at the time? Yes.

starkerealm wrote: »

In point of fact, it would require a Dragon Break. The events of Messages Across Tamriel take place after the main quest lines for all three factions. This includes dialog from rulers referencing your actions in those stories, even if you haven't played through them. (For example: Jorunn will refer to a Dominion character as Ayrenn's champion even if you've never become an Eye of the Queen.)

All three storylines take place during the final year of the Planemeld crisis, Coldharbour concludes the Planemeld, but Silver and Gold require you to complete God of Schemes which, in turn, requires you to have completed Coldharbour to some degree.

We simply don't know the full nature of what Meridia did with cadwells gold and silver. I do agree that a dragonbreak, albeit a very tiny one that literally just involves the vestige, would make sense of it. That dragonbreak would only extend until cadwells gold and silver are completed. We know that how Raz sees the vestige and how Naryu or Darien sees the vestige is different as Cadwell specifically states the vestiges true identities are disguised. But Matt said there's no dragonbreak.

starkerealm wrote: »

No, it's deliberately looking at lore and gameplay and realizing that, unless gameplay explicitly states it needs to conflict with lore, it does not.

For example, self-reviving for player characters is a gameplay consideration, but it is specifically given a lore explanation as well. What is not explained is how players who have not completed Soul Shriven in Coldharbour can have the soul magic skill line.

Except no where in the game does it actually state that there are multiple vestiges existing. No where is vestiges ever used plurally. If I were to assume you are correct and that cadwells silver and gold are indeed a dragonbreak, said dragonbreak would occur at the end of the first playthrough of the main storyline, not at the start, where you would still see other vestiges jumping and hopping around. There's no evidence that it started before the end of main storyline. Even ignoring that entirely, if I followed your train of logic every illogical gameplay element of elder scrolls lore would be canon. In other words, when I shoot an arrow into the eye of some bandit in a dungeon in Skyrim while in stealth, they will say "Where goes there!?...oh must of been my imagination". It would be canon that elder scrolls is a world filled with complete idiots. It was lore that said bandit with an arrow sticking out of his eye honestly thought it was his imagination.

starkerealm wrote: »

Not really. Morrowind elevated The Elder Scrolls' into something truly unique, but Kirkbride was just a part of that. Ken Rolston doesn't get enough credit, and was at least as influential. Kirkbride tends to go way too far into the domain of toad licking for its own sake. Rolston has a very grounded approach to fantasy, which reigned in a lot of Kirkbride's crazier impulses. I really have no interest in C0DA, for example. It's just TES fanfiction, regardless who wrote it. That said, a lot of stuff that Kirkbride wrote grounds TES's game mechanics into the more esoteric elements of the world's metaphysics. This where the Dragon Breaks came from. The idea that they'd need to justify the events of TES2, but in the processes, Kirkbride's stranger impulses won out.

Well, it seems like we have some common ground about post-Bethesda Mk works being non canon. I was just curious.

starkerealm

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

The Last Dragonborn is canon but our own dragonborns are not.

The problem is, our dragonborn is "The Last Dragonborn."

It's be a little like saying, "Captain Kirk isn't canon, only James T. Kirk is canon." It's the same character. The difference is that one is the full name, and the other is shortened.

Or, a more on point example is the Agent. They're canon. They're canon in all variants. Though, in that case, we know they're canonically neither an Imperial nor an Orc.

PrayingSeraph

starkerealm wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

The Last Dragonborn is canon but our own dragonborns are not.

The problem is, our dragonborn is "The Last Dragonborn."

It's be a little like saying, "Captain Kirk isn't canon, only James T. Kirk is canon." It's the same character. The difference is that one is the full name, and the other is shortened.

Or, a more on point example is the Agent. They're canon. They're canon in all variants. Though, in that case, we know they're canonically neither an Imperial nor an Orc.

Unless Bethesda in the future release material that states the race and gender of the Last Dragonborn, there is no canon race or gender of Last Dragonborn. Given their history and developers of a role playing franchise, they will undoubtedly leave the details of the Last Dragonborn up to player headcanon, as they have done with the Nerevarine and Champion of Cyrodiil. The events of both Morrowind and Oblivion are canon, such figures are canon, they existed, but the details on who they were is up to us to make up on our own.

I don't know much about Star Trek but the identity of Caotain Kirk and James T. Kirk are the same. Same body, same personality, same history, same gender, same race, same person. However The Last Dragonborn was one figure that was possibly male or female and one of the 10 main races of tamriel. We know they were a man or a woman, and part of one of those races, but we don't know which on both accounts. Unless Bethesda states otherwise, it's up to us to create our own vision of Last Dragonborn, even thought its not part of actual canon but in our own headcanon(as intended by Bethesda mind you)

Monte_Cristo

Since several people on this thread are so against the idea of a dragonbreak, I'm starting to suspect they are part of the conspiracy. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE, DAEDRA WORSHIPERS?

Solid_Metal

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

No, ESO is not involved in any sort or dragon break. Matt Firor stated it himself- https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/b7cc1f/eso_is_not_in_a_dragon_break/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

The "3 Fates" cinematics and following Chapter ones are not canon and purely theatrical purposes.

Thew devs have also stated that the timeline for ESO canon TOO THE PLAYER. Whatever order you play the content in is what is canon in your storyline.

canon to our storyline but what for the general even on the TES as overall franchise ?, is it ESO still canon or not ?, and which timeline/storyline that canon?, for alliance i reckon AD since AD still exist even in Skyrim...albeit a skewed AD but AD nontheless