Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

CleymenZero

furiouslog wrote: »

The fundamental difference between the two arguments that have been presented over and over again on this forum and elsewhere is due to a perception of what the arena gear means. Rich takes the position that the veteran arena gear is a product, and as such, subject to all economic rules applicable to products. Others (myself included) take the position that the gear is a reward that represents something earned through hard work.

I understand Rich's argument from a cold, logical perspective. It makes sense, in the same way that many logical extrapolations of a concept can lead to conclusions that appear bizarre or inhumane (e.g. A Modest Proposal).

The flaw in Rich's argument is that it fails to acknowledge the "reward" perception of many of his customers. I initially farmed the vMA flame staff as a means to an end for min-maxing my dps. It literally took me months to work through my first run of vMA because it was so challenging and frustrating. I got the sword and shield on that first run. Sigh. I went back and kept at it, getting better at vMA. My high score is now somewhere in the high 200Ks (I'm not a very good player). During those runs over the past year, I never really enjoyed it. I viewed it as a means to an end to get the reward, a reward resultant from efforts put forth within buggy and bad instances, desyncs, skill misfires, and frustrating RNG mechanics. Literal weeks of playtime spent grinding that content that did nothing more than frustrate me and make me angry.

When I finally got the staff, I ceased doing vMA, apart from going in once recently to see if a recent patch fixed the technical problems with the arena (they didn't).

That staff was a goal. It represents the time I spent learning the arena, learning to adapt to its design (mechanics) and technical challenges (bugs), and living through the frustration of the random value of the reward I'd receive for my efforts. Not having that staff upgraded does not frustrate me from a gear perspective. I know the bonus is negligible when it comes to being able to clear content. It frustrates me because it represented my efforts and achievement, and to have that effort callously undermined by making the same achievement available for much less effort is what I think is unfair, and apart from a ticked box in my achievement section, it's as if I never did any of that work at all. The goal I achieved is rendered meaningless. It's no longer special. As of tomorrow, I will have no reward that represents my achievement. It's like I never did it.

Furthermore, forcing me to re-grinding the same arena to earn the upgraded reward in an already challenging game environment that is plagued by game-breaking lag and bugs is totally unacceptable. It's not core to the issue, but it's adding insult to injury.

I don't expect people who don't view it that way, or who do not emotionally connect with my perspective to feel that way, but I am asking you to logically acknowledge that my perception of the reward is valid, and that my feelings about the matter are equally valid given that perception.

I'm definitely going to do nMA a few times to fill out gear on my alts. If they ever get the game to a state where it functions properly, I might even do vMA again just to do it and get my score better, or try for Flawless someday, but it does not mitigate my anger at the unfairness of this situation given my perspective. It is clear evidence that ZOS has minimal empathy for their most loyal consumers, and the fact that the only insight that we, as a community, have received on this issue comes from a Discord log is unfathomable.

So, ZOS, by way of being constructive, here is my feedback: please acknowledge the discontent of many of your customers, and communicate your rationale for this decision publicly in a way that considers the multiple perceptions of your consumers with understanding and empathy.

I agree mostly with yournpost except for one thing in Rich's perception as a product. If you compare it to all products out there, you will see that this logic fails as often as it succeeds making it unusable.

Say the product is an investment. Is it normal for it depreciate? Let's say it's a house, should it lose value like your 2018 KIA Sorento did? No. Simply no.

That position is completely indefensible. Let's say my vMA bow was a collector's item. It would gain value over time not lose it given normal economic circumstances (COVID is really messing with that right now).

You'll say: "well you can't compare it to a house or an investment" to which I'll simply answer that you can't compare it to a car either.

If you want to compare to anything, compare it to any other item set in the game.

I'll use my examples again:
- doing this is the same as taking perfected relequen, making it available in normal and introducing a new super perfected version, now go re-grind!
- "we're not reducing your current power level". No but you're increasing the power cap which is basically increasing a level cap. Wasn't this NOT supposed to happen?
- imagine the regular blackrose weapons didn't exist and only the perfected. Imagine you're giving the current perfected blackrose to all players and introducing a new perfected black rose. Since you're changing how they work anyways, why aren't you making us re-grind them?

I'll say it again, the scenario would be different with something like a perfected VO. It would-be a new method of acquisition. It's very important because the way gear was acquired is a huge part of the reason why it doesn't make sense to act that way.

Back to VO. That gear set can currently be acquired in both normal and vet difficulty. If you introduced a new perfected VO and perfected AY, it would different because you'd introduce a new way of acquisition. TBH most people, including extremely high-end PvE groups farm normal instances of the trial for their gear so putting perfected versions and locking them to vet difficulty wouldn't be as insulting and disrespectful as let's say, taking our weapons that were acquired in vet content (and ONLY AVAILABLE through vet content), making them the same as the weapons obtainable through normal difficulty and introducing a new version that's available through vet content.

The more just or sensible way of going about it would be: "hey, we want to give less skilled or less experienced people the weapons you got in vet Maelstrom Arena to reduce the power gap but don't worry, we're putting new perfected ones that add a very small bonus and we'll convert your current weapons to the new vet version".

You can't defend your point with 2-way logic and if you can't see that, then you're incapable of justifying your position @ZOS_RichLambert.

John_Falstaff

BRCOURTN wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

BRCOURTN wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

It comes down to respecting your players' time. Those who farmed the weapons completed the content on vet. U26 will turn their vet rewards into normal rewards. Nothing about the content has changed. Vet weapons should remain vet weapons.

If BiS is not an issue then the issue is that their hard earned weapons will be available to all "peasants".
Now that, while psychologically understandable, is truly laughable.

Your argument is laughable. I am happy for my friends who can't beat vMA currently because the weapons will help. Most of them take my advice in high regard and understand that vMA is a proving ground that will teach a player to persevere and in the end will make them a much better player. This is an issue of devaluing time and nothing more.

People keep talking about devaluing time... its an mmo inwhich grind plays a heavy part. If you truly value your time so much, then you wouldn't be playing the game in the first place.

ESO was always known as MMO which is less grindy than most others, which is one of things it's valued for. If it's going the route of adding more stupid repetitive grind, then indeed there's way less incentive to play it over other MMOs, simple as that.

I mean I've run crypt of hearts about 50 times with no ebon lightning staff. There are similar situations with other items. Many people grind city of ash forever for the bsw inferno. Alkosh shield and lightning also sucks as a farm. There's a pretty huge item grind in this game to get exactly what you want.

Everything's known in comparison. It's nowhere near level of grind other MMOs do. And ZOS could've gone the way of limiting the grind, but it's actually going the way of increasing it; on top of being an outlier who can't get your inferno in 100 runs, now you have to repeat it again in content you've already done before. New gear must come with new content to run for it, it's a fair game.

Besides, vMA weapons is a mark of excellence for many players; it's both weapon and a status item. Now imagine that your Flawless Conqueror, Tick-Tock, GH or Godslayer is now awarded for normal runs. That's how it is.

(Also, sorry to say, but unless you've done your Ebon grind in last several months, it was a fool's errand, Ebon had a bug that prevented from using it in weapons. ^^)

@Elsonso , thing is, those who did the grind are already fed up with vMA. I'm all for new shiny gear. But it must come with new shiny content. As things stand now, KA sets are garbage, and we're offered to grind same ol' vMA to get vMA weapons, because ours are suddenly nMA ones. It's not about stats, it's about a huge slap in the face. Devs can't expect anyone to respect them if they don't respect players in first place.

furiouslog

CleymenZero wrote: »

I agree mostly with yournpost except for one thing in Rich's perception as a product. If you compare it to all products out there, you will see that this logic fails as often as it succeeds making it unusable.

To clarify, I don't agree with Rich's perception, but I acknowledge and understand how that perception can lead to his conclusion.

The car analogy falls apart on multiple levels, among the best ones being that I can't sell the gear at market price. The in-game equivalent would be a trade in program where the value of the existing gear and the incremental value of my time was applied to the new gear. Following the analogy, you have to work hard to get a car. You buy the car. A new car comes out that is slightly better, but you are not allowed to sell your old car and you have to do the exact same amount of work to get the new car. Society would revolt if that became reality.

Firstmep

I'm really concerned that they are using this to set a precedent, and later pull the same crap on other older content.
If you think their decision is fine, then you are supporting a POV, that it's okay for them to make you regrind older content for slightly better versions of items we have already had.
Imagine if they introduced perfected bloods pawn, which has the unnerfed stats, and added it back to vet spindle, while the nerfed version would be available from normal.
The only thing I can think about is that when they decided to add vma weapons to normal, they wanted to give something to older players.
Here's the thing: Give us vma themed mount, Armour, skin etc, I'll gladly jump back.
But the very items we had already farmed now being renamed perfected, and then put into the same content we already did?
Nah.
One of the main reasons I liked ESO so much, was that you didn't have to regrind new gear levels every update like a lot of other mmos.
I'm okay with them introducing slightly better gear every now and again, and putting interesting new mechanics on new gear, that comes from new content.
But not this.

Vevvev

BRCOURTN wrote: »

I mean I've run crypt of hearts about 50 times with no ebon lightning staff. There are similar situations with other items. Many people grind city of ash forever for the bsw inferno. Alkosh shield and lightning also sucks as a farm. There's a pretty huge item grind in this game to get exactly what you want.

I still don't have that BSW inferno staff and it ticks me off to no end. I've done almost 40 runs of that dungeon and the only time a BSW inferno staff dropped on those runs was dropped into the hands of a level 46. It was devastating and I lost all hope from that point on. So I'm in agreement with all the people here who did the veteran content, got the veteran weapon, and expect it to stay at a veteran level.

If I had to grind for the weapons I needed, and then the traits were taken off of it and put on a "Perfected" version that I have to regrind, I'd be pretty angry.

Ascarl

Giving the new gear is maybe 5% better gear than the old, the whole argument seems over exaggerated to me by people who feel pissed because that can not show anymore how elite they claim to be. This is not about the stats, they are neglectable. This is about ego.

xaraan

CleymenZero wrote: »

I'll use my examples again:
- doing this is the same as taking perfected relequen, making it available in normal and introducing a new super perfected version, now go re-grind!
- "we're not reducing your current power level". No but you're increasing the power cap which is basically increasing a level cap. Wasn't this NOT supposed to happen?
- imagine the regular blackrose weapons didn't exist and only the perfected. Imagine you're giving the current perfected blackrose to all players and introducing a new perfected black rose. Since you're changing how they work anyways, why aren't you making us re-grind them?

The second point is an important distinction. Anyone that can't see that isn't very aware of how the game works and my hope is that the game lead isn't that oblivious. Which would mean he's just spinning, which isn't much better.

If you have an item that is a 10 on a scale of 1-10 and you change the scale to 1-12, then your current item has had something taken away from it. You did make it weaker by moving the goalposts.

In the end, there is just no reason to do it other than as a petty jab at the players and his responses pretty much demonstrate that. He says he's in the same boat, he's one of like 20 people in this game that even like running that content combined with not even being into things like real raid teams, so that's irrelevant. In fact it feels like he just can't understand why people don't love something he enjoys and instead of figuring out how to fix that, just changes things to force people to run it and act like more people enjoy it for his own benefit. Comes off as the neighborhood kid who brings the ball and makes everyone do it his way or he takes his ball and goes home.

He should be more concerned with fixing the game than ticking off players and giving even one player an extra reason to leave the game. Obviously a big influx of newbs (easier for a company to take advantage of as well) will cover for any loss bad decisions cause. Losing 2 but adding 10 is going to look just fine, but not as great as keeping those 2 and adding those 10, or even just one of those two staying around, etc. And anyone that thinks losing players doesn't effect those that were friends of those players that stick it out isn't putting enough thought into the entire situation either. When a player says they are leaving b/c the game isn't doing it for them and a new game caught their eye, you just shrug it off as much as you can, but when they leave because they feel driven out by the staff acting as if they don't care enough to fix performance or because they make changes that feel spiteful, you can't help but understand and see the shortcomings in how the game is being run.

Jaimeh

I find the exchange pretty bad on both sides, but on the dev's side I would have expected at least a more professional attempt at the justification of the upcoming change, besides what boils to 'it is what it is, deal with it'. We all realize they just want to revive old content, and create a time sink, but it's a low blow to the vet players who have ran vMA countless times (especially those with particularly bad RNG that had to do 500+ runs for their inferno, for instance). They could have updated the content, or add new weapons, or even add a token system for those who already have the vet weapons, so they could get the perfected ones faster, that would have been more respectful of their player-base, imo.

Firstmep

I should also add, that regardless of the dev's opinion, with the how rapidly they are losing veteran players, they couldve just caved in and given us the upgraded weapons as a show of good faith.
Absolutely no reason to be stubborn about it.
Unfortunately, it looks like they are trying to weather the storm by staying silent on the matter, just like they have done with many issues in the past.

kind_hero

My impression is of someone looking down on us, players.

"heh"

These screens explain a lot of why the communication is the way it is, how changes happen against feedback from players, how requests/feedback gets ignored. No wonder the game is not like it used to be.

John_Falstaff

Ascarl wrote: »

Giving the new gear is maybe 5% better gear than the old, the whole argument seems over exaggerated to me by people who feel pissed because that can not show anymore how elite they claim to be. This is not about the stats, they are neglectable. This is about ego.

Hate to break it to you, but many things in MMO are about ego. And then, there are those whose ego feels okay and they want their vet rewards to stay vet rewards; and there are those whose ego is hurting and they want to take vets down a peg, so they come here, squirm and tell people to stop whining because they like the idea of good players being pulled down to their level. Can't say I'm surprised.

xXMeowMeowXx

zvavi wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong


Did I convey both sides right?

I heard only one reasonable comment for not upgrading (from Moonsorrow) - to make veterans to run vDSA again, because otherwise newbies simply have nobody to run with, especially PVP ones which don't have good PVE toons

And I'll completely remove and forget argument about normal MA drops - it immediately triggers some players to start song about toxic elitists, which can de-rail any discussion if such discussion will happen in ZOS. I mean fact that maelstrom weapons will now drop is normal - it is good change, it is not linked with non-upgrading existing weapons in any way and it's better not to be mentioned at all.

It is inside initiative to run old content...and I am including all the arguments I can see being reasonable from different sides, or else my post would have been "wtf won't they upgrade it"

Nah, actually this decision ZOS made gives more initiative to not regrind the unchanged, old drab content.

I mean, what is next downgrading the mythic items at some point. Then have them tell you to regrind the same items again

They should do this with all the dlc monster helms too. Plus, make people regrind skins and titles.

Since we’re using a car analogy, skins and titles are now leased per season. Pfft, they should add in downgrading PvP ranks, as well. I mean that is an incentive to play Cyro in it’s laggy, broken state by your logic

This just shows ZOS doesn’t listen to the majority of the feedback, they get from their longtime player-base.

If there was a new solo or duo arena with new weapons then yh. Though there is no new arena that was added.

This is just wrong, simple. It sets a very unnerving direction on their part.

WhisperLFE

Yeah, a slightly more professional interaction would've been a much better look for him. Who knows, maybe the Peter Principle at work.

At the end of the day, it's more the lack of communication that probably has most folks upset rather than the actual change itself. Seems to be a recurring theme.

agegarton

I couldn't care less about the weapons - although I certainly understand why some people are unhappy.

However, Lambert's crummy attitude is really interesting. It just seems like a complete lack of any care and some quite astonishing arrogance. If one thing will be root cause of this brilliant game's death, it will be idiot ZoS employees who don't seem to understand that it's the customer base that keeps them going.

How very EA.

tgrippa

agegarton wrote: »

I couldn't care less about the weapons - although I certainly understand why some people are unhappy.

However, Lambert's crummy attitude is really interesting. It just seems like a complete lack of any care and some quite astonishing arrogance. If one thing will be root cause of this brilliant game's death, it will be idiot ZoS employees who don't seem to understand that it's the customer base that keeps them going.

How very EA.

100% agreed, I got my yearly ESO+ refunded last month and have not pre-ordered the latest chapter as I am waiting to see if they will actually fix their poor server performance and combat issues before giving them any more of my money and game time. At the moment I’m not having much hope, especially when senior members of their team display this kind of attitude to their customers.

@ZOS_GinaBruno - let Rich Lambert know that he owes this customer an apology. It is quite shameful to treat loyal customers this way. He should be embarrassed at his behaviour, and came across as a petulant teen, not the senior level team member who above all should be respecting customer feedback and providing high quality answers if he decides to take the time out to directly answer our questions. If he cannot control himself, he should stay out of the public eye.

I am sure if one of the customer support agents spoke to a customer in this way they would be reprimanded or even fired, wouldn’t they?

Shameful.

willjones1122

So I am morbidly curious... What if ZoS decided to say "guys we're sorry. You were right. We'll take the perfected versions of vMA/vDA staffs out of this update and add them into a new content at a later date. However, we're still going to give newer players a chance at the weapons so we'll be leaving the current weapons to drop in normal."
How would you guys feel about something like this?
Would you still feel like your time devalued since they lowered the difficulty of farming those weapons?

furiouslog

willjones1122 wrote: »

So I am morbidly curious... What if ZoS decided to say "guys we're sorry. You were right. We'll take the perfected versions of vMA/vDA staffs out of this update and add them into a new content at a later date. However, we're still going to give newer players a chance at the weapons so we'll be leaving the current weapons to drop in normal."
How would you guys feel about something like this?
Would you still feel like your time devalued since they lowered the difficulty of farming those weapons?

Yes. For the rationale, I was pretty clear as to why in my previous post. But it would not be as bad, I guess.

CleymenZero

Ascarl wrote: »

Giving the new gear is maybe 5% better gear than the old, the whole argument seems over exaggerated to me by people who feel pissed because that can not show anymore how elite they claim to be. This is not about the stats, they are neglectable. This is about ego.

This is so simple minded to say that this is about ego. If you manage to understand any single one of my posts, you would see that it's far from it.

I'm happy they're giving the weapons away to everyone in order to try to reduce the DPS gap but making the weapons in my inventory the same as the ones obtained in normal is just really childish and stupid.

You're making me re-grind perfected weapons and use mats again because you're making my vet weapons into normal ones. It's arbitrary and a needless source of anger.

There is just no way to properly defend Rich's position other than by saying "he wants it to be this way just because ok?" it would honestly be a better argument than what he's given so far.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

It comes down to respecting your players' time. Those who farmed the weapons completed the content on vet. U26 will turn their vet rewards into normal rewards. Nothing about the content has changed. Vet weapons should remain vet weapons.

If BiS is not an issue then the issue is that their hard earned weapons will be available to all "peasants".
Now that, while psychologically understandable, is truly laughable.

No.

Adding a normal drop and a "perfected" Vet drop could have been a win-win for everyone. Zos decided to create a win-lose-win situation. Your so called "peasents" get chance to get maelstrom weapons, players who can easily do vetMA get a perfected version for an additional time investment. But those players who lose out the most are the ones who spent weeks, months or longer, getting the weapon they wanted or even on their first completion of content they found very hard, unenjoyable and often bugged and said they would never go back in.

I spent a couple of weeks learning and running vMA, ending up with the weapons I wanted in less than 10 runs. It never felt like an achievement, just a relief it was over.

silvereyes

silvereyes wrote: »

Arbitrarily reworking an entire rewards tier structure is not something ZOS has done since the VR16 switch in Update 7.

Correction. There was one other time that the basic structure of rewards was reworked for old content, and that was Update 12 One Tamriel, when all the BoE gear got moved to overworld areas.

End-game raiders were quite upset at the time, because selling gold jewels from their raids was their primary gold-maker to support buying potions and repair kits.

There was a lot of lively debate, and you know what ZOS did? They actually listened and introduced Undaunted Plunder, a lower-valued but more dependable income stream for veteran trials. This was controversial, since people were worried about inflation with a new gold source, but it directly addressed veteran players' root concerns, and for the most part, mollified us.

I didn't think I would long for those chaotic days again.

Czekoludek

Ascarl wrote: »

Giving the new gear is maybe 5% better gear than the old, the whole argument seems over exaggerated to me by people who feel pissed because that can not show anymore how elite they claim to be. This is not about the stats, they are neglectable. This is about ego.

You are right. It's not about the stats. It's about precedent that leads to more grindy, less fun experience for everyone. All of that because dev is thinking his ego is more important then players opinion.

CleymenZero

Firstmep wrote: »

I'm really concerned that they are using this to set a precedent, and later pull the same crap on other older content.
If you think their decision is fine, then you are supporting a POV, that it's okay for them to make you regrind older content for slightly better versions of items we have already had.
Imagine if they introduced perfected bloods pawn, which has the unnerfed stats, and added it back to vet spindle, while the nerfed version would be available from normal.
The only thing I can think about is that when they decided to add vma weapons to normal, they wanted to give something to older players.
Here's the thing: Give us vma themed mount, Armour, skin etc, I'll gladly jump back.
But the very items we had already farmed now being renamed perfected, and then put into the same content we already did?
Nah.
One of the main reasons I liked ESO so much, was that you didn't have to regrind new gear levels every update like a lot of other mmos.
I'm okay with them introducing slightly better gear every now and again, and putting interesting new mechanics on new gear, that comes from new content.
But not this.

The fact that it could set a precedent really irks me as well.

Next thing you know they'll make perfected siroria, false god, relequen and lokki available in normal and make you farm a new perfected....

It seems so far fetched but it's almost the same.

MurderMostFoul

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

Chilly-McFreeze

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

Then you can certainly understand that it sets precedence on how ZOS can and will treat it's player base from now on. The outrage it not about the items, it's about the principle behind the change. And that's something worth being pissed.

But then again, if they only listen to how players use their wallets, so be it.

CleymenZero

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

As gaming is often an outlet for many, you don't want to come to play a game with the knowledge that things could've been done in a better way. There are already so many performance issues that players just don't want to have to have things taken away.

The fact that the developper can't properly justify his decision is an important point.

What does it take to have current MA and DSA weapons? Complete veteran content.

What will it take to get the perfected versions? Complete veteran content.

It's a hard decision to accept when you have 2 prime examples in front of you those being vAS HM and vBRP. Why not modify current weapons to perfected and let the less experienced players obtain the normal ones when patch drops? It's a position that cannot be very well defended and that's why a lot of players are upset.

Those that think this has to do with elitism are really off the track on this one...

John_Falstaff

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

It's really simple. Game is a product. Not a free product, too. We have a company and customers relation with ZOS, paying customers too. We've invested and keeping on investing in it, and if we won't care what kind of product we're being sold, then it'll lead to product growing worse and costs higher, just because company can pull it off. Now look here, we got our, say, Asylum staff, version 2018, or, say, Bloodspawn, or Iceheart, or VH, you name it - and now it's turned into rubbish right in our inventories, so we've accepted the rule of the game and we keep moving on. But now, we're fed the gibberish that, as it turns, our sets are like cars, once we got them, we're not entitled to changes in them. So it makes one question what kind of hypocrisy is that - nerfs, we're supposed to swallow and stay quiet while our bought cars are turning into horse carriages right in our hands; but when it comes to buffs, company can pull a fast one and make a look as though it's new sets... even though content didn't change.

So, that's rubbish, and it enables the company to exploit us even further if we'll swallow it. And it's normal that customers keep watch over quality of product they're being sold. There must be some ground rules. You're nerfing Asylum? Mmhm, sure, but we paid for original car, so be a good sport and release easier content with new, nerfed Asylum version staff drops, because we paid for our Asylum car before May 2020. What, want to nerf what we already paid for? Then don't try to make a look as though items are cars, because you're a bloody hypocrite then, and your customers will call you out on that. Which is happening right now, and it's normal, it makes for good balance between business and customers.

silvereyes

CleymenZero wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If BiS is not an issue then the issue is that their hard earned weapons will be available to all "peasants".

The only peasant thing about this issue is the idea that it's about elitism.

Those ideas might come from the minds of individuals excluded from groups because of lack of competence.

While I agree that the core issue isn't about lording vet weapons over anyone, can you at least take a step back and reflect on how condescending that sweeping generalization sounds?

I understand nobody likes being called elitist or entitled, but nobody likes to be called incompetent either. We're all here to play games and have fun. Please stop with the name-calling and loaded language. It's not helpful.

HowlKimchi

CleymenZero wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

As gaming is often an outlet for many, you don't want to come to play a game with the knowledge that things could've been done in a better way. There are already so many performance issues that players just don't want to have to have things taken away.

What exactly is being taken away here?

tomofhyrule

Wow, this is a heated thread.

I've been thinking for a while about where I stand on this, and I've come to the conclusion that there isn't a good option. Either way is introducing a dangerous precedent, and there's a lot of hostility from all sides here.

I'll preface this by saying that I really have no feeling one way or the other. I'm still pretty new, so even nMA seems pretty daunting. I'm also not the type to go chasing after specific weapon sets to chase a meta (and even if I were, the BRP and Master's SnB are more to my playstyle, the MA one is a skill I don't use as often). Besides, I know I'd have to grind it twice since I'd need a sword and a shield, so that adds another level of 'ugh' to that.

I'm sure it would have been easy to change the current weapons to 'perfected,' and add a new set of drops in nMA. That would have solved that problem right away. The current state of boosting the rewards for nMA to current vMA and the vMA rewards to a new version seems unfair to the current players who have grinded vMA to get their desired weapon and golded it out. The fact that they're doing this does seem to introduce the precedent of "Well, we'll get any vet gear (like monster helms) to drop in normal, and you all have to grind it again to get the perfect one!"

But switching it over also introduces a dangerous precedent as well - if you run a dungeon once, does that guarantee you the rewards for all time? Consider the example of them adding 'perfect Monster Helms,' so the regular ones now drop from normal dungeons. Does that mean that every person who's ever run nFGI gets Kra'gh mailed to them? After all, they did the content, so should they not get the reward since it is now dropping something? Taking this to the MA debate, I never see anyone claiming that anyone with the "Maelstrom Arena Champion" achievement (nMA clear) should have a random Maelstrom weapon mailed to them since that achievement will come with a new weapon starting tomorrow. I'm sure what they're trying to avoid is all of the support threads of "I did content XYZ and now it drops ABC so I deserve it" like you see when the cashier at the Walmart tells someone that their coupon expired last week.

And yes, MA weapons changed - I think it was in 2017? - so it looks like they got a nerf and then are being buffed back up. But from what I understand, the nerf was changing an enchant to a set bonus, so it's one of those things that could be a nerf or a buff depending on the circumstances. Besides, what about the different people who ran the content in 2016-2017 vs the people who ran it 2018-2019? One set got their weapons changed, the other only ever had the set bonus. If this is considered a "buff it back to what it was before" case, should only the people who ran vMA before 2017 get the upgrades since the later ones never had a nerf in the first place? Definitely makes things more touchy...

Yes, adding motif pages to a dungeon a few months after the fact is a bit of a difference, but it's similar in concept. There wasn't a reward, and now there is. vMA is getting a new reward, but it's easy to see it as a different reward. What's not needed is a dev to be flippant about it, but a PM is also not an official statement either (and shouldn't a PM get permission from all parties befoere being released...?)

I'd have no problem with people getting the MA weapons upgraded. It seems fair to the people who have put in the time and effort to do so. I just see that it's a touchy subject on both sides if people start to feel they're entitled to rewards that are given after the fact - and that's both for the vMA people who feel entitled to the new perfected stuff, and also - in the case they did upgrade - the people who have already done nMA and feel entitled to one now as well who would complain that the vMA's got what they wanted so they should as well. Half of the problems in politics today have to deal with one person putting in time/money/energy to get something, and then others who didn't invest that being offered the same thing - is it right to reward the people who invested in it or the people who need the help and couldn't? And that's all I'm saying on that, since I don't need a political debate.

mairwen85

HaruKamui wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I can understand disagreeing with ZOS. I can understand even being a bit peeved. But the outrage so many are expressing here is patently uncalled for. It just not that big of a deal.

Folks need to take a chill pill. There are much more important issues in the world. Spend your time, energy, and emotional investment protesting them.

As gaming is often an outlet for many, you don't want to come to play a game with the knowledge that things could've been done in a better way. There are already so many performance issues that players just don't want to have to have things taken away.

What exactly is being taken away here?

That's part of the issue, this is so emotionally loaded that while nothing is actually being taken away from anyone, it certainly feels as if individuals are being robbed of their time invested (and what that spells for the future with respect to other rewards/accomplishments/efforts) -- I think the 'taken away', however figurative or incorrect in literal terms, is the only way people know to describe that, and that only makes the debate harder to retain as instead of being a point to explain or build an argument on, it becomes one to question or hang counterpoint against. However, previous posters have put elegantly into words exactly what is meant by that out of context phrase, and I think it's disingenuous at this point in the thread to circle back to that pin prickling again.