Rich Lambert's stance on perfected master and maelstrom weapons

Vicinia · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

If you wish to move the goalposts, you go right ahead. I already made my point, if people don't agree with it, fine. I didn't expect that from people in this thread who have already made up their minds that they're entitled to compensation for something, and really just want a free buff.

Free buff?

I don't speak for others but I'm not requesting a free buff on the maelstrom weapons. They stripped them of their bonuses and then reinstated the same buffs in their perfected forms. It's laziness on their part to try to breathe life into vMA. You can make your argument for vDSA but not vMA.

This isn't new content, the perfected weapons in fact existed in vMA. There's nothing new except regrinding what we once had years ago. Oh also the lag, and bugs people have to look forward to going into it. They still haven't addressed the issue of RNG where some unlucky people will go for many runs without getting what they desire (Maybe a token system? I was fortunate to get what I needed, but I've known others who weren't so lucky.).

Nothing has changed in vMA except perfected weapons being brought back. No quality of life fixes, no buffs on the sets (I know they touched upon succession, but not so sure about Permafrost and Hunt) that drop in there, nothing on the bugs that will ruin your flawless run. Nada.

I can see why people would be upset. Unless I want more flawless titles, I'm not going into that garbage glitchy lagfest.

colossalvoids · May 2020

Can i get my vAS car back from the pimpmystaff program? It worked well and had zero issues before.

Ashtaris · May 2020

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think the worst thing about this is that someone had to leak a private discord conversation for us to learn about the opinion of ZOS' important people.

Why can't we just have a normal discussion with the Devs? It could go something like this:
GinaBruno posts a sticky to the forum with topics they want feedback on.

There are threads for each topic being made where feedback and arguments are collected

after time has passed the feedback gets condensed and properly written down by one person and the first reply of the thread gets edited so everyone can see the points that have already been made

then ZOS goes and looks at the forum thread's first replies and gives a quick statement on each of the points before going back to work

the forum then responds to the response by stating their counter arguments in the same fashion. This repeats until...

In the best case an agreement can be found that makes both sides happy which is then implemented. In the worst case it is exposed the two sides of the argument follow different mutually exclusive paradigms, in which case ZOS goes with what their own views tell them is right, since they are the ones making the game, but at least that way it is easier to understand for the community what the developers actually think and vice versa.

We have class reps. Why aren't they being made use of? They could be the moderators in this and be the ones gathering the feedback. A lot of them are also very qualified for this task already, seeing how a lot of them are well-spoken and have good game knowledge that allows them to understand the issues at hand better.

I have a feeling the class reps already told the ZOS Devs this was a bad idea (not uprading vMA weapons). But as we have seen time and time again, once the powers that be at ZOS make up their minds, there is no reasoning with them. Class Reps, Community, or Streamers be damned.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

If you wish to move the goalposts, you go right ahead. I already made my point, if people don't agree with it, fine. I didn't expect that from people in this thread who have already made up their minds that they're entitled to compensation for something, and really just want a free buff.

People are asking for compensation from content they've already completed. ZOS hasn't released any new content.

If ZOS wants me to grind something, they need to put in the effort of actually designing new content for me to grind.

Vicinia · May 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

If you wish to move the goalposts, you go right ahead. I already made my point, if people don't agree with it, fine. I didn't expect that from people in this thread who have already made up their minds that they're entitled to compensation for something, and really just want a free buff.

People are asking for compensation from content they've already completed. ZOS hasn't released any new content.

If ZOS wants me to grind something, they need to put in the effort of actually designing new content for me to grind.

Instead of this nonsense they pulled, we could have used a Maelstrom Arena sequel 😐

It's been long overdue.

James-Wayne · May 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Totally agree with Rich Lambert!! Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know. The whole thing is a typical '6 vs 9' scenario. Just because [1] is right doesn't mean [2] is wrong.

Rich is 100% correct in that the new reward is a separate entity to the existing reward, and as such it must be, can only be received by clearing the content it is a reward for. However, what is actually new in this scenario is that reward appearing in normal content. The veteran reward already exists. In which case Rich is 100% wrong to tell those people that their rewards are no longer rewards for doing veteran content, and instead need to redo that to receive the rewards they've already earnt. The existing veteran rewards should have been made perfect at the data base level, and a new non perfect item introduced as a normal drop - - not retrofit the veteran reward into normal and create a replacement for it.

Rich is also 100% correct that this is not a power loss or downgrade for the existing weapons and those who have them. However, most players aren't arguing the stats, they feel their effort is devalued. What is downgraded is the time spent over multiple runs on veteran content to have put so much of it into farming what are now ultimately normal rewards. That devalues the player's investment.

Finally, Rich is absolutely right about cars. However, this is ESO where the established norm is new content = new gear, and there is a promise of horizontal progression and quarterly new content. As many have posted already, this approach with the arena weapons is a new precedent which in itself invalidates any analogy that doesn't follow the rules of that established norm. This circles us back to the point of new - - where is it in this scenario?

Players are certainly not devalued. We play hard content because we are experienced and nothing will change that not even moving a weapon from hard content to easy content. The achievement system is in place to prove we are experienced, not the weapon. By providing the weapon in easier content will just raise the floor which is what we need to do but the experienced player is still a experienced player, nothing has been devalued of that player they can still go on and complete other hard content where the other player will struggle.

We have new content in the chapter, this is old content that is being adjusted for new players and we all know ZOS builds this game with new players in mind first, this will not change.

MLGProPlayer · May 2020

James-Wayne wrote: »

We have new content in the chapter

Content we can't play because we'll need to dedicate over 100 hours to re-farming vMA and vDSA.

John_Falstaff · May 2020

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

mavfin wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, forums are not a representative subset of players, but your guilds somehow are? I smell double standards.

You smell a double standard. I smell wishful thinking. So we disagree.

In the end, the owners of the game will do what they will. You can play...or not.

I'm not the one who tried to depict own guilds - without even specifying what sort of guilds - as statistically sound, while painting forums as unsound. What's next, anecdotal evidence? And you're darn right I can, that's why ZOS won't see my coin for Greymoor.

If you wish to move the goalposts, you go right ahead. I already made my point, if people don't agree with it, fine. I didn't expect that from people in this thread who have already made up their minds that they're entitled to compensation for something, and really just want a free buff.

Mm-m. Don't mind not getting upgrade to perfected. But only as long as I'm staying with Asylum the way it was pre-Greymoor, old unnerfed Iceheart, Vykosa, Bloodspawn, VH and a bunch of others. Sets should stay the way as we earned them, ri-i-i-ight? Bueller? Else, you know what it's called: hypocrisy. If making us regrind same trite content by giving it new, backward-incompatible drops is compared to paying for new car, then altering our existing sets we already have in our inventories can only be compared to coming to our homes and taking parts out of our cars. Sorry, but have to choose one or the other.

As I said... double standards.

silvereyes · May 2020

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

If ZOS wants me to grind something, they need to put in the effort of actually designing new content for me to grind.

It didn't even need to be new content, necessarily, for me. Just something I haven't ground before and where anyone who had done the achievement before wouldn't have had an expectation of a higher-tier reward at the time. Something like achieving at least a certain score, or a particular achievement. Some new harder goal to set and feel good about accomplishing when we get there. I'd probably groan, but then I'd buckle down and do it, and I'd celebrate when I succeeded. Or I'd fail, but at least I would fail while pushing myself, and I wouldn't feel cheated or robbed.

Introducing a new higher reward tier without a corresponding new higher achievement goal robs everyone of that new experience.

Instead, they chose to move the goalposts, and deprecate the highest-tier rewards to a lower tier. I'm totally fine with that. But when I ground those weapons, I had the expectation of highest-tier rewards for that challenge level, so I think it's reasonable to grandfather us in to the new higher-tier rewards.

Derra · May 2020

Thogard wrote: »

Posting PMs is so cringe.

Edit: I’m super disappointed about the arena weapons decision too and I’m baffled by the logic. But that doesn’t mean I would start posting private messages. That’s a huge violation of trust. Very embarrassing for whoever is sharing this.

@Thogard that´s sad because if it´s a conversation like this you definetly should.
You shouldn´t be ebarrassed.
You should be thankful that someone is willing to expose behavior and attitude like this.
Because if everyone would always just shut up everything nothing would ever change.
It´s not acceptable and this is the only way to make people like this realize.

VoidCommander · May 2020

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

Difference in your example is that no one farmed gear from those trials on veteran difficulty. Giving those trials a perfected version would actually encourage people to play them on vet in the first place.

If I could only get my Master Architect gear on veteran Halls of Fabrication, then they came out with a perfected version afterwards, players would still be very upset.

This decision is unprecedented in ESO’s history, and everyone is very worried about the precedent this is going to make. If ZOS discovers they can raise their player’s playtime number by releasing perfected item sets, they will just do that instead of creating new engaging, challenging, and rewarding content.

zvavi · May 2020

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong

Did I convey both sides right?

MartiniDaniels · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong

Did I convey both sides right?

I heard only one reasonable comment for not upgrading (from Moonsorrow) - to make veterans to run vDSA again, because otherwise newbies simply have nobody to run with, especially PVP ones which don't have good PVE toons

And I'll completely remove and forget argument about normal MA drops - it immediately triggers some players to start song about toxic elitists, which can de-rail any discussion if such discussion will happen in ZOS. I mean fact that maelstrom weapons will now drop is normal - it is good change, it is not linked with non-upgrading existing weapons in any way and it's better not to be mentioned at all.

colossalvoids · May 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Would people be equally outraged if Perfected sets were added to vMoL and vHoF to revitalize those old trials? I’m sure existing pieces would not be upgraded, because that would defeat the purpose in creating the perfect version, and I doubt they even have a way to track which current pieces were obtained from vet or normal.

The current reactions are a pretty good way to make sure we never get Perfected Moondancer and Alkosh.

Difference in your example is that no one farmed gear from those trials on veteran difficulty. Giving those trials a perfected version would actually encourage people to play them on vet in the first place.

Well to be precise everyone was farming gold jewelry on vet/hm as those sets were/are mostly a frontbar options.

New perfected versions also won't be worth farming at the current game state when Major Slayer is given away like a candy left and right, this trend should be changed first. And Alkosh will have a dps bonus anyway.

But introduction of perfected sets probably is not planned as last time devs were asked it wasn't in consideration afaik. Maybe something changed with Greymoor compared to Elsweyr but can't pay any attention with that bad state of a game.

daemonios · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong

Did I convey both sides right?

You missed what is my main objection: new rewards should be tied to new content. Otherwise in the future ZOS can keep putting carrots inside old content and cash in without needing to put in the effort to design something new for players to do. DSA is six years old by now. MA is five.

You've also missed the fact that in the past any changes to dropped gear have been done "in place". If you had a set that was nerfed or buffed, you would get the nerf or buff. No need to refarm it. The new weapons are only "new" in the sense that ZOS made a choice to move the current ones to the normal version of the arenas. They could have just as easily decided to buff existing weapons and introduce the normal ones as new.

VoidCommander · May 2020

May I have my old valkyn skoria back? You know, the one that had seperate cooldowns for each mob? I’d like that one again. Unless of course, when old gear gets changed, it ALL gets changed. Does anyone at zos realize how long it takes the average player to complete dragonstar arena on vet?

zvavi · May 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong

Did I convey both sides right?

I heard only one reasonable comment for not upgrading (from Moonsorrow) - to make veterans to run vDSA again, because otherwise newbies simply have nobody to run with, especially PVP ones which don't have good PVE toons

And I'll completely remove and forget argument about normal MA drops - it immediately triggers some players to start song about toxic elitists, which can de-rail any discussion if such discussion will happen in ZOS. I mean fact that maelstrom weapons will now drop is normal - it is good change, it is not linked with non-upgrading existing weapons in any way and it's better not to be mentioned at all.

It is inside initiative to run old content...and I am including all the arguments I can see being reasonable from different sides, or else my post would have been "wtf won't they upgrade it"

zvavi · May 2020

daemonios wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

I am trying to get a list of points for both argument side, without silly arguments like the bonus stat that the weapons had before they could carry an enchantment.

For not upgrading:
* New weapons should be farmed a new
* Initiative to run old content
* It is zos's choice
For upgrading:
* Not upgrading devalues the time vets spent on their current weapons
* The new reward is actually nMA drops, and not the perfected that will drop in vet
* Forcing perfectionists run the content in its current bugged state is wrong

Did I convey both sides right?

You missed what is my main objection: new rewards should be tied to new content. Otherwise in the future ZOS can keep putting carrots inside old content and cash in without needing to put in the effort to design something new for players to do. DSA is six years old by now. MA is five.

You've also missed the fact that in the past any changes to dropped gear have been done "in place". If you had a set that was nerfed or buffed, you would get the nerf or buff. No need to refarm it. The new weapons are only "new" in the sense that ZOS made a choice to move the current ones to the normal version of the arenas. They could have just as easily decided to buff existing weapons and introduce the normal ones as new.

I didn't forget. It is right there at point 2 of y upgrade it. The new rewards are actually in nMA.

Czekoludek · May 2020

Based on your logic @ZOS_RichLambert I want my old iteration of magblade from Summerset chapter back. I don't "earn" any of the nerfs from 2 year nerf train that wreck this class. Why I got this new 2020 iteration if I created my magNB long time ago, definitely not in 2020?

silvereyes · May 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

This decision is unprecedented in ESO’s history, and everyone is very worried about the precedent this is going to make.

Unprecedented in specifics, but it's most similar to when VR16 was introduced and all of us had to regrind the old content again to get the new top-level rewards.

They lost a ton of veteran players then as well. Since then, they've shied away from any similar sorts of moves, and the game has been the better for that restraint.

... until now.

VoidCommander · May 2020

silvereyes wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

This decision is unprecedented in ESO’s history, and everyone is very worried about the precedent this is going to make.

Unprecedented in specifics, but it's most similar to when VR16 was introduced and all of us had to regrind the old content again to get the new top-level rewards.

They lost a ton of veteran players then as well. Since then, they've shied away from any similar sorts of moves, and the game has been the better for that restraint.

... until now.

A good point. Probably why they are trying to do the same thing, but at a slower pace. Less “shell-shock” on the veteran playerbase. Although doing this change without updating current weapons on such an emotionally charged arena like vMA was perhaps the worst one to start off with. Making things like new perfected old trials sets wouldn’t have gathered this much hate.

At that point, the precedent would have been set, and having to go to vet arenas to get new perfected weapons that needed to be refarmed would have been much more accepted.

Banana · May 2020

They could have just sent us the new stuff in the mail like the last time they changed the bonuses.

wnights · May 2020

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

mairwen85 · May 2020

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons. How much of this thread have you actually read? I would repeat it again, but I fear I'd just be wasting my time...

Sanguinor2 · May 2020

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

No one cares that more People can get them.
That being said next patch I wont have vet rewards anymore which I farmed but normal rewards instead. What sense does it make that if I were to farm a Vma weapon today that I get the same reward as when I run normal maelstrom tomorrow?

Sharee · May 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons.

I would be careful with those generalizations.

Check the second screenshot in the original post. I quote: "WE have earned those weapons. And now they will drop in normal?"

It seems someone does care.

mairwen85 wrote: »

How much of this thread have you actually read?

*cough*

VoidCommander · May 2020

Sharee wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons.

I would be careful with those generalizations.

Check the second screenshot in the original post. I quote: "WE have earned those weapons. And now they will drop in normal?"

It seems someone does care.

mairwen85 wrote: »

How much of this thread have you actually read?

*cough*

A valid point that OP clearly has a more elitist stance on MA weapons, which is his right. However, I have read EVERY comment on this thread thus far and not one person has expressed any distaste for the fact that new players will be able to get necessary weapons sooner in their gaming experience.

zvavi · May 2020

Sharee wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons.

I would be careful with those generalizations.

Check the second screenshot in the original post. I quote: "WE have earned those weapons. And now they will drop in normal?"

It seems someone does care.

mairwen85 wrote: »

How much of this thread have you actually read?

*cough*

Yes. He is mad that the vet weapons he earned are downgraded to normal. Aka the weapons don't get updated to the veteran version.

not that maelstrom weapons will drop on normal.

mairwen85 · May 2020

Sharee wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons.

I would be careful with those generalizations.

Check the second screenshot in the original post. I quote: "WE have earned those weapons. And now they will drop in normal?"

It seems someone does care.

mairwen85 wrote: »

How much of this thread have you actually read?

*cough*

Yes. We have earnt those veteran rewards from veteran content that will now drop in normal content. More than someone cares about that, but your post is still only less than half of the entire argument. You reference the premise of discussion, but you're missing the detail. Good try though.

HankTwo · May 2020

Sharee wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

wnights wrote: »

His analogy is not the best but I see his point

You still have everything that you've farmed. Who cares that a lot of other people can now get it too?
But you now have a chance to earn something even better by replaying vMA.

Nothing has been taken away from you. As Rich has said, do what you want. MA weapons are not a neccessity in this game.

Your post totally misses the counter argument.

No one cares that a lot of other people can get it too. No one has a problem with normal drops of maelstrom weapons.

I would be careful with those generalizations.

Check the second screenshot in the original post. I quote: "WE have earned those weapons. And now they will drop in normal?"

It seems someone does care.

mairwen85 wrote: »

How much of this thread have you actually read?

*cough*

Baloo doesn't have a problem with players getting access to non-perfected weapons in normal next patch. Instead, he feels like his effort to farm them in veteran is getting devalued, because his veteran rewards will be pushed to normal, while veteran in the future will give basically the same items just in better. And all this while the content stays exactly the same. He feels like its an artificial re-grind just for the sake of grinding itself.

To sum it up he would have no problems if non-perfected weapons would drop in normal, and perfected weapons would drop in veteran if the current weapons would be upgraded to perfected.