Who would you say is the greatest Lich to ever Unlive in Elder Scrolls?

Chicharron

interesting, I have learned a lot lore with your posts.

But I don't know if it's correct to call them "most powerful".

I beat them all with light attacks. The ESO ones fo course.

Paradisius

Mannimarco

My vote goes to Mannimarco, even if he wasnt the first lich in terms of Lore he was one of if not the most formidable Lich in ES. The whole Vestige idea I think we can put down to just game design, in the time of when that quest was fresh I completely understand the devs just reusing the resurrect animation over making a new one for the sake of a one time interaction.

And I believe his prowess of Necromancy does hold merit in terms of Lichdom, the process of Lichdom is directly tied to Necromantic arts, and the end result is that you are an undead. The title he got "The First Lich" is much less literal and more figurative as he was the most formidable/potent Lich.

JinMori

Mannimarco

Paradisius wrote: »

My vote goes to Mannimarco, even if he wasnt the first lich in terms of Lore he was one of if not the most formidable Lich in ES. The whole Vestige idea I think we can put down to just game design, in the time of when that quest was fresh I completely understand the devs just reusing the resurrect animation over making a new one for the sake of a one time interaction.

And I believe his prowess of Necromancy does hold merit in terms of Lichdom, the process of Lichdom is directly tied to Necromantic arts, and the end result is that you are an undead. The title he got "The First Lich" is much less literal and more figurative as he was the most formidable/potent Lich.

What do you mean the whole vestige idea was gameplay? The vestige literally defeated molag bal... in his own realm, aided by the amulet ofc, but that is still a way superior feat compared to defeating a non god mannimarco, way, way superior.

The vestige is just freakishly op, even without the amulet, and with the amulet, the vestige is a literal god. He's definitely comparable to the other elder scrolls protagonists, especially after the second game, as before that they were strong but not that strong, but the nerevarine, the hero of Kvatch, the dragonborn and the vestige are ridiculous.

Paradisius

Mannimarco

JinMori wrote: »

What do you mean the whole vestige idea was gameplay? The vestige literally defeated molag bal... in his own realm, aided by the amulet ofc, but that is still a way superior feat compared to defeating a non god mannimarco, way, way superior.

The vestige is just freakishly op, even without the amulet, and with the amulet, the vestige is a literal god.

You misunderstand, OP said that they think Mannimarco is a Vestige in ESO time due to the ressurect animation, which I think is just due to game design. The character we play is indeed powerful and boosted by the amulet of kings, but that wasnt what I was mentioning

Thevampirenight wrote: »

However before that I really think hes a truly a Paragon Vestige like the Vestige and Haskill. Its the way he interacts with you after you kill him in the main quest and does that vestige reform animation the player has that convinces me he is a Vestige. However that doesn't mean he couldn't become a Lich Later on and given his resourcefulness he likely did.

JinMori

Mannimarco

Paradisius wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

What do you mean the whole vestige idea was gameplay? The vestige literally defeated molag bal... in his own realm, aided by the amulet ofc, but that is still a way superior feat compared to defeating a non god mannimarco, way, way superior.

The vestige is just freakishly op, even without the amulet, and with the amulet, the vestige is a literal god.

You misunderstand, OP said that they think Mannimarco is a Vestige in ESO time due to the ressurect animation, which I think is just due to game design. The character we play is indeed powerful and boosted by the amulet of kings, but that wasnt what I was mentioning

Thevampirenight wrote: »

However before that I really think hes a truly a Paragon Vestige like the Vestige and Haskill. Its the way he interacts with you after you kill him in the main quest and does that vestige reform animation the player has that convinces me he is a Vestige. However that doesn't mean he couldn't become a Lich Later on and given his resourcefulness he likely did.

Ah ok, no mannimarco is not a vestige, it would make 0 sense anyway, let's say that mannimarco was the necromancer vestige, it would make 0 sense from a chronological and story level.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

Paradisius wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

What do you mean the whole vestige idea was gameplay? The vestige literally defeated molag bal... in his own realm, aided by the amulet ofc, but that is still a way superior feat compared to defeating a non god mannimarco, way, way superior.

The vestige is just freakishly op, even without the amulet, and with the amulet, the vestige is a literal god.

You misunderstand, OP said that they think Mannimarco is a Vestige in ESO time due to the ressurect animation, which I think is just due to game design. The character we play is indeed powerful and boosted by the amulet of kings, but that wasnt what I was mentioning

Thevampirenight wrote: »

However before that I really think hes a truly a Paragon Vestige like the Vestige and Haskill. Its the way he interacts with you after you kill him in the main quest and does that vestige reform animation the player has that convinces me he is a Vestige. However that doesn't mean he couldn't become a Lich Later on and given his resourcefulness he likely did.

Hmm rewatching a video of it I might have even been mistaken about the vestige thing. Though It does look like he was trying something. As either to resurrect himself or become a lich at least that is what I thought when I played through it. But we know he fails and gets captured and later one he escapes Coldharbour no matter if you freed him or not. So I'm not sure now. All I know is I played through the main quest several years ago and remembered that one animation with him. So that might be why I might have thought of him to be a vestige. As he did say watch as I rise from the Grave. So maybe it was him going to self resurrect or become a Lich.
But Molag Bal was apparently watching the whole thing for some reason and decided to take him instead of you. So he was actually prevented from becoming a Lich if that was what he was going for. Given how much he was likely Tortured in Coldhabour I don't know if he had the strength to even pull it off as a disembodied soul. But I think when you defeat Molag Bal its mentioned all the souls he took were freed. This would also likely have freed Mannimarco. But if he was freed and if he was not a vestige. Then his soul would have likely been drawn to Aetherius. If you freed him Its possible he wondered Coldharbour got himself a new body using the Waters and left Coldharbour. We will likely never know how he got himself out of Coldharbour and back on Nirn.

Paradisius

Mannimarco

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Hmm rewatching a video of it I might have even been mistaken about the vestige thing. Though It does look like he was trying something. As either to resurrect himself or become a lich at least that is what I thought when I played through it. But we know he fails and gets captured and later one he escapes Coldharbour no matter if you freed him or not. So I'm not sure now. All I know is I played through the main quest several years ago and remembered that one animation with him. So that might be why I might have thought of him to be a vestige. As he did say watch as I rise from the Grave. So maybe it was him going to self resurrect or become a Lich.
But Molag Bal was apparently watching the whole thing for some reason and decided to take him instead of you. So he was actually prevented from becoming a Lich if that was what he was going for. Given how much he was likely Tortured in Coldhabour I don't know if he had the strength to even pull it off as a disembodied soul. But I think when you defeat Molag Bal its mentioned all the souls he took were freed. This would also likely have freed Mannimarco. But if he was freed and if he was not a vestige. Then his soul would have likely been drawn to Aetherius. If you freed him Its possible he wondered Coldharbour got himself a new body using the Waters and left Coldharbour. We will likely never know how he got himself out of Coldharbour and back on Nirn.

My theory is this: since Lichdom is the act of removing your soul from your body, and putting it in a phylactery, perhaps when you kill his body, his soul became vulnerable. And since he directly schemed against the Daedric prince of schemes, I think Molag Baal is more enticed to punish the one who directly wronged him, rather than just what is seen as a fly at that point in time. (Since this is before you get the amulet of kings god mode to directly hinder him). As for Mannimarco escaping, I think its purposely left vague as a "get out of jail free card" for lore, we know he escapes, but no way are they going to tell us directly how, more than likely because they cant think of a convincing reason themselves.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

How it works is this. The Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Eso vampires with the exception of Reanimated Blood Fiends are a type of Living undead. This is even lore for the Cyrodiil vampires when they are well fed If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. Meaning you can't tell the difference.
Vampirism works like this stage one 25% Vampirism stage two 50% Vampirism, Stage three 75% Vampirism and stage four 100% Vampirism. 25% at stage one would mean the vampire is 25% Undead, 50% at Stage two means the vampire is 50% Undead, Stage three 75% means the vampire is 75% Undead, and then stage four 100% means the vampire is 100% Undead that is how it works. That is why they are immune to sunlight in Oblivion at stage one as they are only 25% undead.
So if you think the life scale is ridiculous then why do they work that way?

Zombies are basically slow moving undead things that tend to only have basic instincts nothing else to them that attacks people. They can be dangerous but a vampire does still have augmented strength but not as much when well fed. If a mortal or vampire was careless enough they could fall to such creatures though zombies are a weak form of undead but in numbers they can overwhelm some zombies can be stronger then others but just got to run or go grab an axe and get to hacking. A Well Fed Vampire as shown in Oblivion and Skyrim and Eso until Greymoor is weaker when well fed because they are 75% Living. Undead Pulse does fit the mold of the Elder Scrolls Vampire.

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are. That is the Oblivion Vampire for you. That is exactly how the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion vampires work. Its the very definition of how it worked in Oblivion it.The lore in Tes is quite clear about the unique nature of the Cyrodiilic Vampire clan to be indistinguishable from Living persons. Its why the Vampire Hunter couldn't find a single one.

If a vampire doesn't feed they grow more undead and it becomes obvious and they grow weaker to sunlight but also their strengths and augmented attributes increase and they don't look healthy anymore. So by not keeping healthy they grow more powerful. By keeping healthy they are weaker.
So Stage one for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirims 25% Attribute/Skill Bonus+ 5 Fire Weakness 20% Sunlight Sunlight Damage 0
Stage 2 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 50% Attribute/skill Bonus +10 Fire Weakness 30% Sunlight Damage 1
Stage 3 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 75% Attribute/skill Bonus + 15 Fire Weakness 40% Sunlight Damage 4
Stage 4 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 100% Attribute/skill Bonus +20 Fire Weakness 50% Sunlight Damage 8. Npcs won't talk to you.
You can see how it scales up here. When you feed it goes back down to 25% Vampirism.
That is how the Live Scale works. The more fed you are the less Vampiric/Undead you are. The More Thirsty you are the More Vampiric/Undead you are. So the Scale determines if your more indistinguishable from the living when well fed or more undead and distinguishable when starving.

Tessitura

Vasterie is kind of lame. I never got on the fan train so many others did for her. she was always too much of a fan fiction style character. Like she is not the worst character, but the whole. " I am a good guy, and I don't look undead because illusions, also I am a priestess of Azura. " Thing is just super dumb to me. Just let her look undead, and let her be evil. I don't get lich vibes from her at all. she is a lame example of a lich, narrativly. Again to be fair she is not the worst, and Mannimarco was a joke in the main story cause the original writers were super butt mode so she gets a pass since it was the same writers that made her.

Barilzar is a much better example of a lich "Good" guy. He had a powerful artifact that he feared letting fall into the wrong hands. He feared it so much that he commited one of the ultimate atrocities and turned himself into a lich. He might not have a lot about him outside of one quest, but he is done better then Vasterie.

Again to be fair she is not the worst, and Mannimarco was a joke in the main story cause the original writers were super butt mode so she gets a pass since it was the same writers that made her.

Anyway i didn't vote cause the best Lich is not on the list. The best lich is the one I played in Skyrim with a mod.

Chicharron wrote: »

interesting, I have learned a lot lore with your posts.

But I don't know if it's correct to call them "most powerful".

I beat them all with light attacks. The ESO ones fo course.

Hey don't rely too much on their posts for a lore source. A lot of their lore is just things they infer too heavily or wish was true. NO offense to them, it's not like everything they say is like that, but they are guilty of doing this pretty often. Sometimes they even just make stuff up to fit their ideas of thing.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

How it works is this. The Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Eso vampires with the exception of Reanimated Blood Fiends are a type of Living undead. This is even lore for the Cyrodiil vampires when they are well fed If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. Meaning you can't tell the difference.
Vampirism works like this stage one 25% Vampirism stage two 50% Vampirism, Stage three 75% Vampirism and stage four 100% Vampirism. 25% at stage one would mean the vampire is 25% Undead, 50% at Stage two means the vampire is 50% Undead, Stage three 75% means the vampire is 75% Undead, and then stage four 100% means the vampire is 100% Undead that is how it works. That is why they are immune to sunlight in Oblivion at stage one as they are only 25% undead.
So if you think the life scale is ridiculous then why do they work that way?

Zombies are basically slow moving undead things that tend to only have basic instincts nothing else to them that attacks people. They can be dangerous but a vampire does still have augmented strength but not as much when well fed. If a mortal or vampire was careless enough they could fall to such creatures though zombies are a weak form of undead but in numbers they can overwhelm some zombies can be stronger then others but just got to run or go grab an axe and get to hacking. A Well Fed Vampire as shown in Oblivion and Skyrim and Eso until Greymoor is weaker when well fed because they are 75% Living. Undead Pulse does fit the mold of the Elder Scrolls Vampire.

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are. That is the Oblivion Vampire for you. That is exactly how the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion vampires work. Its the very definition of how it worked in Oblivion it.The lore in Tes is quite clear about the unique nature of the Cyrodiilic Vampire clan to be indistinguishable from Living persons. Its why the Vampire Hunter couldn't find a single one.

If a vampire doesn't feed they grow more undead and it becomes obvious and they grow weaker to sunlight but also their strengths and augmented attributes increase and they don't look healthy anymore. So by not keeping healthy they grow more powerful. By keeping healthy they are weaker.
So Stage one for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirims 25% Attribute/Skill Bonus+ 5 Fire Weakness 20% Sunlight Sunlight Damage 0
Stage 2 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 50% Attribute/skill Bonus +10 Fire Weakness 30% Sunlight Damage 1
Stage 3 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 75% Attribute/skill Bonus + 15 Fire Weakness 40% Sunlight Damage 4
Stage 4 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 100% Attribute/skill Bonus +20 Fire Weakness 50% Sunlight Damage 8. Npcs won't talk to you.
You can see how it scales up here. When you feed it goes back down to 25% Vampirism.
That is how the Live Scale works. The more fed you are the less Vampiric/Undead you are. The More Thirsty you are the More Vampiric/Undead you are. So the Scale determines if your more indistinguishable from the living when well fed or more undead and distinguishable when starving.

Just out of curiosity are you one of those people who think character levels are part of the lore?

Vampire stages are just a game-play representation of how thirsty a Vampire is, keyword there is GAME-PLAY, In Daggerfall and Morrowind there were no Vampire stages, the Vampire Lord form in Skyrim does not become more or less undead as you bite people.

LukosCreyden

Mannimarco

@Thevampirenight it is true that Mannimarco wasn't the first Lich or Necromancer. However, he is the one that is seemingly credited with spreading it more throughout Tamriel. When I called him, the "Father", that isn't a name I made up for him, that is what other had taken to calling him.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

How it works is this. The Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Eso vampires with the exception of Reanimated Blood Fiends are a type of Living undead. This is even lore for the Cyrodiil vampires when they are well fed If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. Meaning you can't tell the difference.
Vampirism works like this stage one 25% Vampirism stage two 50% Vampirism, Stage three 75% Vampirism and stage four 100% Vampirism. 25% at stage one would mean the vampire is 25% Undead, 50% at Stage two means the vampire is 50% Undead, Stage three 75% means the vampire is 75% Undead, and then stage four 100% means the vampire is 100% Undead that is how it works. That is why they are immune to sunlight in Oblivion at stage one as they are only 25% undead.
So if you think the life scale is ridiculous then why do they work that way?

Zombies are basically slow moving undead things that tend to only have basic instincts nothing else to them that attacks people. They can be dangerous but a vampire does still have augmented strength but not as much when well fed. If a mortal or vampire was careless enough they could fall to such creatures though zombies are a weak form of undead but in numbers they can overwhelm some zombies can be stronger then others but just got to run or go grab an axe and get to hacking. A Well Fed Vampire as shown in Oblivion and Skyrim and Eso until Greymoor is weaker when well fed because they are 75% Living. Undead Pulse does fit the mold of the Elder Scrolls Vampire.

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are. That is the Oblivion Vampire for you. That is exactly how the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion vampires work. Its the very definition of how it worked in Oblivion it.The lore in Tes is quite clear about the unique nature of the Cyrodiilic Vampire clan to be indistinguishable from Living persons. Its why the Vampire Hunter couldn't find a single one.

If a vampire doesn't feed they grow more undead and it becomes obvious and they grow weaker to sunlight but also their strengths and augmented attributes increase and they don't look healthy anymore. So by not keeping healthy they grow more powerful. By keeping healthy they are weaker.
So Stage one for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirims 25% Attribute/Skill Bonus+ 5 Fire Weakness 20% Sunlight Sunlight Damage 0
Stage 2 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 50% Attribute/skill Bonus +10 Fire Weakness 30% Sunlight Damage 1
Stage 3 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 75% Attribute/skill Bonus + 15 Fire Weakness 40% Sunlight Damage 4
Stage 4 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 100% Attribute/skill Bonus +20 Fire Weakness 50% Sunlight Damage 8. Npcs won't talk to you.
You can see how it scales up here. When you feed it goes back down to 25% Vampirism.
That is how the Live Scale works. The more fed you are the less Vampiric/Undead you are. The More Thirsty you are the More Vampiric/Undead you are. So the Scale determines if your more indistinguishable from the living when well fed or more undead and distinguishable when starving.

Just out of curiosity are you one of those people who think character levels are part of the lore?

Vampire stages are just a game-play representation of how thirsty a Vampire is, keyword there is GAME-PLAY, In Daggerfall and Morrowind there were no Vampire stages, the Vampire Lord form in Skyrim does not become more or less undead as you bite people.

No I don't take those as part of the lore. I do however take some mechanics that effect a condition such as Vampirism as lore.Especially the intentional ones that keep popping up like drowning, and the four stage system. So lore wise there are several types of vampires that have four stages of hunger that makes them more vampiric and gives them power. Leveling is a game thing, Vampire stages are a lore+Game Thing. Got to have some common sense when considering mechanics. Vampirism is a condition that works a certain way. Lore wise it grants boons and powers. Those powers and boons determine how they actually function in the world, the weaknesses too. Each vampire strain is unique and each one can vary depending on the strain.
For the Cyrodiil Vampires its Blending in. For the Skyrim Vampires its Necromancy and Frost Magic. For the Morrowind Vampires its about the warrior, thief and mage archtypes as that is how those vampires function and operate. Those vampires don't have four stages and they cannot blend in like those that have the stage system can.
Those unique variations is what makes them so unique to one another.
These differences is what separates them from one another.
As for game mechanics such as Cp System, Perks system, Leveling can be considered not Lore. However Skyshards making it so spellcasters and people can get more powerful and advance more quickly has to considered lore because that is what they do is grant power. The resurrection mechanic in Eso is canon however its unique to Soul Shriven which we are in the game.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

How it works is this. The Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Eso vampires with the exception of Reanimated Blood Fiends are a type of Living undead. This is even lore for the Cyrodiil vampires when they are well fed If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. Meaning you can't tell the difference.
Vampirism works like this stage one 25% Vampirism stage two 50% Vampirism, Stage three 75% Vampirism and stage four 100% Vampirism. 25% at stage one would mean the vampire is 25% Undead, 50% at Stage two means the vampire is 50% Undead, Stage three 75% means the vampire is 75% Undead, and then stage four 100% means the vampire is 100% Undead that is how it works. That is why they are immune to sunlight in Oblivion at stage one as they are only 25% undead.
So if you think the life scale is ridiculous then why do they work that way?

Zombies are basically slow moving undead things that tend to only have basic instincts nothing else to them that attacks people. They can be dangerous but a vampire does still have augmented strength but not as much when well fed. If a mortal or vampire was careless enough they could fall to such creatures though zombies are a weak form of undead but in numbers they can overwhelm some zombies can be stronger then others but just got to run or go grab an axe and get to hacking. A Well Fed Vampire as shown in Oblivion and Skyrim and Eso until Greymoor is weaker when well fed because they are 75% Living. Undead Pulse does fit the mold of the Elder Scrolls Vampire.

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are. That is the Oblivion Vampire for you. That is exactly how the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion vampires work. Its the very definition of how it worked in Oblivion it.The lore in Tes is quite clear about the unique nature of the Cyrodiilic Vampire clan to be indistinguishable from Living persons. Its why the Vampire Hunter couldn't find a single one.

If a vampire doesn't feed they grow more undead and it becomes obvious and they grow weaker to sunlight but also their strengths and augmented attributes increase and they don't look healthy anymore. So by not keeping healthy they grow more powerful. By keeping healthy they are weaker.
So Stage one for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirims 25% Attribute/Skill Bonus+ 5 Fire Weakness 20% Sunlight Sunlight Damage 0
Stage 2 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 50% Attribute/skill Bonus +10 Fire Weakness 30% Sunlight Damage 1
Stage 3 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 75% Attribute/skill Bonus + 15 Fire Weakness 40% Sunlight Damage 4
Stage 4 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 100% Attribute/skill Bonus +20 Fire Weakness 50% Sunlight Damage 8. Npcs won't talk to you.
You can see how it scales up here. When you feed it goes back down to 25% Vampirism.
That is how the Live Scale works. The more fed you are the less Vampiric/Undead you are. The More Thirsty you are the More Vampiric/Undead you are. So the Scale determines if your more indistinguishable from the living when well fed or more undead and distinguishable when starving.

Just out of curiosity are you one of those people who think character levels are part of the lore?

Vampire stages are just a game-play representation of how thirsty a Vampire is, keyword there is GAME-PLAY, In Daggerfall and Morrowind there were no Vampire stages, the Vampire Lord form in Skyrim does not become more or less undead as you bite people.

No I don't take those as part of the lore. I do however take some mechanics that effect a condition such as Vampirism as lore.Especially the intentional ones that keep popping up like drowning, and the four stage system. So lore wise there are several types of vampires that have four stages of hunger that makes them more vampiric and gives them power. Leveling is a game thing, Vampire stages are a lore+Game Thing. Got to have some common sense when considering mechanics. Vampirism is a condition that works a certain way. Lore wise it grants boons and powers. Those powers and boons determine how they actually function in the world, the weaknesses too. Each vampire strain is unique and each one can vary depending on the strain.
For the Cyrodiil Vampires its Blending in. For the Skyrim Vampires its Necromancy and Frost Magic. For the Morrowind Vampires its about the warrior, thief and mage archtypes as that is how those vampires function and operate. Those vampires don't have four stages and they cannot blend in like those that have the stage system can.
Those unique variations is what makes them so unique to one another.
These differences is what separates them from one another.
As for game mechanics such as Cp System, Perks system, Leveling can be considered not Lore. However Skyshards making it so spellcasters and people can get more powerful and advance more quickly has to considered lore because that is what they do is grant power. The resurrection mechanic in Eso is canon however its unique to Soul Shriven which we are in the game.

The resurrection mechanic in ESO would not apply post Main-Quest, you only keep it due to the same reasons you would have it before you even start the man quest, because at that point in the game they have their mortal soul back, it was the Daedric Animus that was in place that allowed them to resurrect.

Also a few things you ignored, one thing is the fact the Vampire Lord in Skyrim does not have a stage system, infact feeding grants you perks which make you stronger, can you explain that or do I need to give you some time so you can make something up? what about the book immortal blood and how it states there are Vampires living in ice-water and reach through the ice to pull people under, they are not drowning and no they are not Ice caves because if they were how would they reach through the ice and 20 feet of bedrock, you clearly did not think of that did you?

You also ignored that part where I mentioned where Lichs need the energy from Souls and whatnot to sustain their undeath.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

JinMori wrote: »

Obviously Mannimarco. This guy literally became a god. well actually there are 2 different mannimarcos from a different timeline, both of them are extremely powerful but one is an actual god.

The elder scrolls, have incredibly powerful characters in it, it's actually deceiving how strong they are because it cannot be shown in game, but think about this. Molag bal is nigh omnipotent in his realm, and he was defeated by the vestige. Yea, it's ridiculous how strong some of the characters are.

Well there is that theory that Molag Bal allowed for it.
Elder Scrolls Gods are not unbeatable and Mortals can surpass them. Its one of the reasons why the whole mortal plane was created depending on the source. As a way to break free and achieve something called CHIM.

Toanis

Vastarie

Vampirism is a divine disease of a symbiotic nature that changes a newly deceased body's biology so that they can live on with a new way to sustain themselves. The mind stays intact, the soul often goes to the creator of the disease when the future vampire dies, and destroying the vampire's body is the end.

A lich is an undead construct inhabited by a completely intact mind, basically a full-body prosthesis that occasionally needs its soul-powered battery recharged. The mind is tethered to the soul that is savely locked away and cannot pass on. Should the body be destroyed, it can be replaced or rebuilt.

In the end, while there are powerful elder vampires, most of them were once average people involuntarily turned into abominations who in time learned to cope with their new nature and use it to its full potential. Most liches were already powerful mages when they decided that infinite existence as an unshackled mind residing in a rotting body is preferable to whatever awaits in the afterlife. Power is not only about what someone can do, but also what they're willing to do. I'd rather take my chances with the vampire when given the choice of facing one.

vestahls

Mannimarco

Nobody else even comes close to being competition.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Toanis wrote: »

Vampirism is a divine disease of a symbiotic nature that changes a newly deceased body's biology so that they can live on with a new way to sustain themselves. The mind stays intact, the soul often goes to the creator of the disease when the future vampire dies, and destroying the vampire's body is the end.

A lich is an undead construct inhabited by a completely intact mind, basically a full-body prosthesis that occasionally needs its soul-powered battery recharged. The mind is tethered to the soul that is savely locked away and cannot pass on. Should the body be destroyed, it can be replaced or rebuilt.

In the end, while there are powerful elder vampires, most of them were once average people involuntarily turned into abominations who in time learned to cope with their new nature and use it to its full potential. Most liches were already powerful mages when they decided that infinite existence as an unshackled mind residing in a rotting body is preferable to whatever awaits in the afterlife. Power is not only about what someone can do, but also what they're willing to do. I'd rather take my chances with the vampire when given the choice of facing one.

What if the Vampire was also a powerful mage before becoming one? do you realize Vampires can move inhumanly fast where as Lichs are probably slower then living people, no matter how powerful a wizard they are you could react to a Liches movements but a Vampire could slice your jugular the moment you lose sight of them.

Rake

Vastarie

She managed to contol it, didnt went full mad, only lich ever to achieve that afaik

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

According to your logic a Zombie would be superior to a Vampire and yet you completely ignored the fact that many Lichs need to sustain themselves, the Dragon Priests never leave their barrows because they require the Draugr's energy as mentioned in the Book "Amongst the Draugr" also I know not what this undead pulse your talking about but it has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls so leave your little fan-fiction at the door.

Also you still fail to understand the fact that VAMPIRES ARE UNDEAD 24/7 if they were not undead then they would begin to age and be mortal, drinking blood does not make them more or less alive it simply suppresses their Vampiric nature which you seem to confused about, when Lamae Bal's clan drinks blood is does not make them more undead, Blood to them is nothing more then a performance enhancing drug addition, they do not even need it.

And being rarer then something does not make you weaker, if that were the case then the common zombie would be king, the few Vampire Lords we have seen have all displayed feats of power far greater then the feats of power we have seen any Lich perform, infact do you recall a certain quest in the Alik'r desert? remember one has the Blood of a God flowing through their veins, the other is just an undead mage powered by the energy of mortal souls.

How it works is this. The Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Eso vampires with the exception of Reanimated Blood Fiends are a type of Living undead. This is even lore for the Cyrodiil vampires when they are well fed If they kept themselves well-fed, they were indistinguishable from living persons. Meaning you can't tell the difference.
Vampirism works like this stage one 25% Vampirism stage two 50% Vampirism, Stage three 75% Vampirism and stage four 100% Vampirism. 25% at stage one would mean the vampire is 25% Undead, 50% at Stage two means the vampire is 50% Undead, Stage three 75% means the vampire is 75% Undead, and then stage four 100% means the vampire is 100% Undead that is how it works. That is why they are immune to sunlight in Oblivion at stage one as they are only 25% undead.
So if you think the life scale is ridiculous then why do they work that way?

Zombies are basically slow moving undead things that tend to only have basic instincts nothing else to them that attacks people. They can be dangerous but a vampire does still have augmented strength but not as much when well fed. If a mortal or vampire was careless enough they could fall to such creatures though zombies are a weak form of undead but in numbers they can overwhelm some zombies can be stronger then others but just got to run or go grab an axe and get to hacking. A Well Fed Vampire as shown in Oblivion and Skyrim and Eso until Greymoor is weaker when well fed because they are 75% Living. Undead Pulse does fit the mold of the Elder Scrolls Vampire.

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are. That is the Oblivion Vampire for you. That is exactly how the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion vampires work. Its the very definition of how it worked in Oblivion it.The lore in Tes is quite clear about the unique nature of the Cyrodiilic Vampire clan to be indistinguishable from Living persons. Its why the Vampire Hunter couldn't find a single one.

If a vampire doesn't feed they grow more undead and it becomes obvious and they grow weaker to sunlight but also their strengths and augmented attributes increase and they don't look healthy anymore. So by not keeping healthy they grow more powerful. By keeping healthy they are weaker.
So Stage one for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirims 25% Attribute/Skill Bonus+ 5 Fire Weakness 20% Sunlight Sunlight Damage 0
Stage 2 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 50% Attribute/skill Bonus +10 Fire Weakness 30% Sunlight Damage 1
Stage 3 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 75% Attribute/skill Bonus + 15 Fire Weakness 40% Sunlight Damage 4
Stage 4 for a Oblivion Vampire, Vampirism 100% Attribute/skill Bonus +20 Fire Weakness 50% Sunlight Damage 8. Npcs won't talk to you.
You can see how it scales up here. When you feed it goes back down to 25% Vampirism.
That is how the Live Scale works. The more fed you are the less Vampiric/Undead you are. The More Thirsty you are the More Vampiric/Undead you are. So the Scale determines if your more indistinguishable from the living when well fed or more undead and distinguishable when starving.

Just out of curiosity are you one of those people who think character levels are part of the lore?

Vampire stages are just a game-play representation of how thirsty a Vampire is, keyword there is GAME-PLAY, In Daggerfall and Morrowind there were no Vampire stages, the Vampire Lord form in Skyrim does not become more or less undead as you bite people.

No I don't take those as part of the lore. I do however take some mechanics that effect a condition such as Vampirism as lore.Especially the intentional ones that keep popping up like drowning, and the four stage system. So lore wise there are several types of vampires that have four stages of hunger that makes them more vampiric and gives them power. Leveling is a game thing, Vampire stages are a lore+Game Thing. Got to have some common sense when considering mechanics. Vampirism is a condition that works a certain way. Lore wise it grants boons and powers. Those powers and boons determine how they actually function in the world, the weaknesses too. Each vampire strain is unique and each one can vary depending on the strain.
For the Cyrodiil Vampires its Blending in. For the Skyrim Vampires its Necromancy and Frost Magic. For the Morrowind Vampires its about the warrior, thief and mage archtypes as that is how those vampires function and operate. Those vampires don't have four stages and they cannot blend in like those that have the stage system can.
Those unique variations is what makes them so unique to one another.
These differences is what separates them from one another.
As for game mechanics such as Cp System, Perks system, Leveling can be considered not Lore. However Skyshards making it so spellcasters and people can get more powerful and advance more quickly has to considered lore because that is what they do is grant power. The resurrection mechanic in Eso is canon however its unique to Soul Shriven which we are in the game.

The resurrection mechanic in ESO would not apply post Main-Quest, you only keep it due to the same reasons you would have it before you even start the man quest, because at that point in the game they have their mortal soul back, it was the Daedric Animus that was in place that allowed them to resurrect.

Also one thing you ignored is the fact the Vampire Lord in Skyrim does not have a stage system, you also ignored that part where I mentioned where Lichs need the energy from Souls and whatnot to sustain their undeath.

Liches need energy from souls to complete the process that is seen in Oblivion with the Ghosts haunting the House. Edit: Forgot about the Dark Brotherhood Contract that was just using a hour glass. So that form might not need souls to do it but some type of speical focus and to keep an object on you. Also the need for soul energy might be a case by case basis thing. I can see for most once they are undead only death can slay them and they don't need nourishment of any kind. Vampire Lord stages those might have been an assumption on my part as I do see them as an extension of the Humanoid form version. They do turn dark and cloudy if you don't feed for a while according to the Uesp and that is where I got the assumption so you could be correct on that one. Here is the thing though Vampire Lords do not have the durability of the Lich. Liches in Skyrim were difficult to deal with in some cases even fire damage to them was kinda hard to kill them with. But Vampire Lords would still be vulnerable to Sunlight and Fire and lack that durability. Vampire Lords do have powerful Magical power though that can keep them alive.

Vampire Lords can advance their power by feeding and using Vampiric Drain but I personally don't see why they couldn't inherit the stage four system if not from game stand point but a lore one. After all this transformation can be controlled at will and its nothing like Lycanthropy. I think they kept us from using our powers list because we could maybe bug out the transformations or do weird stuff with it with the inventory. Maybe equip armor and the likes and likely have it clip all over the models.
Otherwise the Vampire Lord would and should have been able to use its mortal form abilties and I see that as a realistic thing because they are not lycanthropes and have full control over it.

Toanis

Vastarie

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What if the Vampire was also a powerful mage before becoming one? do you realize Vampires can move inhumanly fast where as Lichs are probably slower then living people, no matter how powerful a wizard they are you could react to a Liches movements but a Vampire could slice your jugular the moment you lose sight of them.

So by this definition any attack dog is more powerful than the president of the US?

What I meant, was that when I have no chance of beating either of them, I'd rather be a quick snack than being put in a test tube and experimented on for the next decade or ten, while my soul is being used as a recharge pack.

Sure, any vampire can have been a mage, but since the creating vampire in TES has no choice in whom of their victims is going to turn, the number of powerful mages among vampires reflects the number of mages among the general population. (with the caveat that a pauper is easier prey to find and beat and his blood is just as delicious).

Meanwhile, the the number of ruthless ultra-powerful Liches reflects the number of such people among the few mages that are willing to give up everything that makes life worth living for most of us, in order to have all eternity to perfect their art.

Toanis

Vastarie

(dp)

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

Rake wrote: »

She managed to contol it, didnt went full mad, only lich ever to achieve that afaik

That is what I like about her plus she has very cool lore about her. I like her because she is a stand in for a ethical form of Necromancy that isn't like Mannimarcos Pure Evil version that is more popular. She stands out and that I do like.

JinMori

Mannimarco

Rake wrote: »

She managed to contol it, didnt went full mad, only lich ever to achieve that afaik

I think people are misunderstanding something.

It's not that she did not go mad with power it's just different objectives.

Mannimarco was always a piece of ***, when he became the strongest necromancer in tes lore ever, he didn't went mad, he just had even more power to show off just how much of a piece of *** he was.

It's not about letting power control you, it's about objectives.

If we consider the necromancer vestige, that defeated molag bal with the amulet of kings though, that version should be even stronger than god mannimarco, but base vestige no, the vestige is still really damn strong.

This is why i strongly believe that it's not power that corrupts, if that was the case everyone with power would go corrupt at some point, no, power allows people to act on what the truly believe, the corruption is in people, power is just a means. This is why people with power can do both beautiful and awful things.

JohnQueue

Yes, well...

I never thought that Caluurion was a weakling ;D

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Toanis wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What if the Vampire was also a powerful mage before becoming one? do you realize Vampires can move inhumanly fast where as Lichs are probably slower then living people, no matter how powerful a wizard they are you could react to a Liches movements but a Vampire could slice your jugular the moment you lose sight of them.

So by this definition any attack dog is more powerful than the president of the US?

Actually yeah, I am talking about which creature is physically more powerful.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Again your using game mechanics, you do realize besides the weakness to sunlight, every weakness a Vampire has is due to being undead which means all undead have those weaknesses including Lichs.

Also again Dragon Priests need the Draugrs energy to sustain themselves, maybe you should read the Book *Amongst the Draugr* which explains this, this fits perfectly with the concept that Lichs need souls to sustain themselves, even in D&D this is a thing, they are not perfect all-powerful undead, they too have their flaws.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

JinMori wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

She managed to contol it, didnt went full mad, only lich ever to achieve that afaik

I think people are misunderstanding something.

It's not that she did not go mad with power it's just different objectives.

Mannimarco was always a piece of ***, when he became the strongest necromancer in tes lore ever, he didn't went mad, he just had even more power to show off just how much of a piece of *** he was.

It's not about letting power control you, it's about objectives.

If we consider the necromancer vestige, that defeated molag bal with the amulet of kings though, that version should be even stronger than god mannimarco, but base vestige no, the vestige is still really damn strong.

This is why i strongly believe that it's not power that corrupts, if that was the case everyone with power would go corrupt at some point, no, power allows people to act on what the truly believe, the corruption is in people, power is just a means. This is why people with power can do both beautiful and awful things.

Well I honestly believe she didn't use a evil method of becoming one. Or at least maybe used the souls of the Daedra for the Ritual. Given her ethicial values I doubt she did horrible things to become one. Meaning she likely used a more ethicial form of necromancy to become a Lich.
As for the Vestige beating Molag Bal, technically it was the amulet and the Prisoner Hero status that allowed for it. The Amulet is a Tower Heart meaning it could have as much power as the Heart of Lorkhan. Towers are very powerful forces. So the Power inside each heart stone could be enough to take on a Daedric Prince.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers
White-Gold

The Tower of White-Gold
"But of all the Prismatic Mer, none were more presumptuous than the Ayleids of the Heartland. They built their tower in open emulation of Ada-Mantia, using as Founding-Stone the great red diamond they had uncovered: Chim-el-Adabal [...]" — Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree

The Amulet of kings is also called the Chim-el-Adaba. Thus its the Heart of White Gold Tower according to the Lore.
Being the heart of a Tower one could likely use it to achieve CHIM But also it likely has as much power as the Heart of Lorkhan. Since Towers are very powerful forces that shape reality in Elder Scrolls. I believe that is why Mannimarco was so desperate to find it because he knew he could use it to absorb Molag Bals Powers.

Likely had we not stopped him Mannimarco could have potentially succeeded.
The reason why is the Plot of Summerset Involves the Heart of Crystal Like Law. The Daedric Princes planned to use the heart to steal power for themselves in a similar ritual that Mannimarco was attempting but in a much bigger way using the Tower itself along with the Heart as the means to do it.
So these hearts do have power a lot of it and it seems they are just as powerful as the Daedric Princes themselves. Given the Heart is able to hold the souls of past Emperors and likely has enough room to hold the soul of a Daedric Prince. I would say it would be a very powerful soul gem able to do what Mannimarco intended and it could have been enough for him to take Molag Bal's place and become a god from it.

Which by the way is a scary thought if anyone figured out they could use these hearts in the manner Mannimarco or Nocturnal and her Cohorts were planning. Reality could be destroyed or written at their whims.

navystylz_ESO

Morokei

Morokei is definitely the most interesting to me.

Idk... Mannimarco seems very overrrated and makes you wonder if he actually is a god or not. Half the time in TES lore it seems like people are worshipped as a god but don't actually have any power... or are even still around for that matter.

Arum-Khal is just such a joke in ESO I can't take seriously. I don't care how much the story talks him up into being some huge monster of a powerful Lich, when ESO gameplay is so mind-numbingly faceroll easy that you kill him in a couple hits. Only time anything in ESO seems powerful is if it's attached to a veteran dungeon or trial.

Narvuntien

Mannimarco

Who would win?

The greatest Lich in the Elder Scrolls or A soulless boi with R