Who would you say is the greatest Lich to ever Unlive in Elder Scrolls?

Thevampirenight

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.
I think that some of you are interested in Liches and well I decided why not do it. Tx inspired me.
Vastarie- She likely would be the only sane lich and only true Arch Lich archtype to be seen. An Arch Lich is a type of non evil lich in d&d. That is why I'm referring to her as this because it does distinguishes her from the other Liches and yes I know this isn't D&d but I put her in that arch type anyways. There is dialog in Elswyer where she states she isn't exactly alive and since in one area of the game she has the blue glowing eyes of a lich and wears a lich style helm there is also dialog if you kill the twilight and do not trap the twilights soul making it so Vastarie ends up getting trapped into Coldhabour that ends up getting her to directly tell you she is a lich. She ends up sending you to the location where her phylactery is located to get you out. She is indeed a Lich and she is the one that believes in Ethical Necromancy and can be considered Good. In Legends there was a card where she said "Haven't you ever met a lich before?

Mannimarco now we should all know who this is.
Mannimarco in lore is believed by his followers to be the First Lich. Hes not the First Lich by the way. He desires to become a god above all else and in a way he succeeds anyways even though he didn't deserve to become one. Because of the warp in the West Dragonbreak. However before that I really think hes a truly a Paragon Vestige like the Vestige and Haskill. Its the way he interacts with you after you kill him in the main quest and does that vestige reform animation the player has that convinces me he is a Vestige. However that doesn't mean he couldn't become a Lich Later on and given his resourcefulness he likely did. Though he really didn't look dead at all or anything like a Lich in Oblivion so that might mean by that time he wasn't one. Or his Lich side became the God Moon. Though there is still a chance the one seen in Oblivion is a Fake and not the Real Mannimarco.

Arum-Khal, now here is an interesting lich, hes a very powerful Lich. He had the effect of influencing other Liches like Vastarie. He had multiple Phylacteries and hes also a Khajiit Dro-m'Athra.
So hes a very powerful Lich in his own right.

Barilzar is a Dunmer Lich we actually encounter him as a mortal in Eso. He created a very powerful artifact that allowed people to teleport anywhere but could also open doorways and portals to oblivion likely bypassing the barriers as well. Hes encountered in Morrowind guarding this powerful artifact.

Dutheil the Mad Architect
A Lich found in Coldhabour, who actually does contract work for multiple Daedric Princes. Hes the one that made the device that made the Plane Meld possible the Planar Vortex. Hes likely the one that came up with the anchors too. So His hands are felt over oblivion and before his destruction. He was likely a very valuable asset to the Princes.

Celemaril Light-Bringer a lich that well got locked away in this infinite dungeon like Plane of Oblivion called the Abyss. He planned on conquering all of Tamriel or destroying the world or something. Hes the main bad of the Blades Mobile game.

Morokei one of the eight high ranking Dragon Priests, These Undead are powerful variants of Liches and I'm listing them here because to me they are Liches anyways this guy was very powerful for a Dragon Priest. Who also happened to have the Staff of Magnus and he might one of the most powerful Dragon Priests Liches because of lore they are adding in with Greymoor.

Vahlok the Jailor hes the one that managed to beat the Dragonborn Mirrak and by doing so was the reason why Mirrak ended up trapped in Apocrypha . So he has to be listed for that reason. He was once the ruler of Solstheim. He is according to one lore book considered to be a paragon of Good so unlike other Dragon priests he was a decent one and he could technically be considered something like a Arch Lich even though he was a Dragon Priest Loyal to the Dragons.

Nahkriin was the Dragon Priest Lich that was guarding the portal to Sovengarde that you had to defeat to get there.

Otar the Mad hes a Dragon Priest lich that is imprisoned in his sarcophagus and you had to collect two keys to release and kill him in Skyrim. I placed him in the poll because of his name.

LukosCreyden

Mannimarco

Mannimarco, without a doubt. He is the "Father" of Lichdom and Necromancy.
His plans failed in ESO, but we know he eventually becomes a God.

He is, quite literally, the God all the little Necromancers pray to.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Mannimarco, without a doubt. He is the "Father" of Lichdom and Necromancy.
His plans failed in ESO, but we know he eventually becomes a God.

He is, quite literally, the God all the little Necromancers pray to.

Nah there were liches before Mannimarco could even realistically become a Lich so the Father of Liches he is not as the Aylieds likely were well versed in Necromancy and there was a group of them that became so powerful they became Daedric Lords in Oblivion. Though becoming a god means that god always existed and I think that is how godhood exists in The Elder Scrolls. So in that way he could technically be the Father of Lichdom and Necromancy but only in that manner. Though for this I would say he isn't the father of Liches or Necromancy. As there are those that were far better at Necromancy then Manni such as the Ideal Masters of the Soul Cairn. Who claim the souls of everyone soul trapped in a black soul gem. So clearly they have power over Black Soul Gems. Not Mannmarco however his god moon allows them to be created.

Lintashi

Vastarie

Vastarie, because she is not 'angry, evil, powercrazy undead ', but brilliant inventor. She found other uses for soul gems, and tries not to torment souls unnecessarily. She is a scholar, and being Lich just grant her more time to study and invent, unlike others, who only become Lich to be more powerful.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

Lintashi wrote: »

Vastarie, because she is not 'angry, evil, powercrazy undead ', but brilliant inventor. She found other uses for soul gems, and tries not to torment souls unnecessarily. She is a scholar, and being Lich just grant her more time to study and invent, unlike others, who only become Lich to be more powerful.

I hope we get to see her again in a future dlc/chapter.

RaddlemanNumber7

Vastarie

Sanity > Insanity

OP might also have mentioned the Ideal Masters.

Ysbriel

Dutheil the Mad Architect

He is not mad he i is angry.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

Got to love how subtle she makes it unless she has to admit to being what she is. She really does have that whole Lich Vibe patted down.



Mannimarco doesn't really feel all that Lichy to me. He so looks to be a wannabe in these photos.

BlueRaven

Mannimarco

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Got to love how subtle she makes it unless she has to admit to being what she is. She really does have that whole Lich Vibe patted down.



Mannimarco doesn't really feel all that Lichy to me. He so looks to be a wannabe in these photos.

The Mannimarco we see in eso is the “early” years for him. Let’s put it this way, the Sload start worshipping him due to his mastery of necromancy.

When it comes to “Lich” power levels, no one gets close to his level. He reanimated Vanus galareon as a thrall at one point, I believe.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

BlueRaven wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Got to love how subtle she makes it unless she has to admit to being what she is. She really does have that whole Lich Vibe patted down.



Mannimarco doesn't really feel all that Lichy to me. He so looks to be a wannabe in these photos.

The Mannimarco we see in eso is the “early” years for him. Let’s put it this way, the Sload start worshipping him due to his mastery of necromancy.

When it comes to “Lich” power levels, no one gets close to his level. He reanimated Vanus galareon as a thrall at one point, I believe.

Well yes hes a master of Necromancy but any necromancer could reanimate Vanus Galaroen. There is no Doubt that he is indeed one of the most powerful Necromancers to ever walk Tamriel and would be as a lich potentially on a higher level to other liches but he is likely a novice compared to the Ideal Masters. Still have to consider him a wannabe, because he is after all a Wannabe God. Who believed he could absorb Molag Bal's Power and take his place and rule over both Nirn and Coldharbour.

While he is intelligent enough to potentially if he wasn't stopped to do what he planned to do. The Guy isn't infallible and the Mannimarco we face in Oblivion felt like such a pushover to be honest with you compared to the Eso Version. That makes me wonder if they are the same or not.

VaranisArano

I do love me some Mannimarco.
And prior to One Tamriel, his boss fights actually lived up to the hype. Like Doshia, he used to be a nasty opponent.

In Oblivion, he was more like the sinister mastermind who's got the charisma to anchor a very interesting plot line, but goes down like a chump when faced with my high-level, fully geared out Hero of Kvatch. Spellcasters did not scale particularly well in that game.

Basically, since Mannimarco is the most powerful of the ones you actually fight, he suffers the most from the whole "I beat him, so how great can he really be?" effect. He really needed better boss fights.

Comic about him being a fake in Oblivion: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/comments/dnisdk/mannimarco_in_oblivion_was_just_the_god_of_worms/

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Vastarie

She used her power to... Not be powerful. Honestly that is pretty cool.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

She used her power to... Not be powerful. Honestly that is pretty cool.

Well she could still be a pretty powerful mage, likely not as powerful as Mannimarco or Vanus but I think she would be up there with them.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Vastarie

Thevampirenight wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

She used her power to... Not be powerful. Honestly that is pretty cool.

Well she could still be a pretty powerful mage, likely not as powerful as Mannimarco or Vanus but I think she would be up there with them.

When I say powerful, I mean to exert that power over others. I am sure she could. But she doesn't.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

You can't go wrong with a name like Otar the Mad, .

But I'd have to say the most powerful lich I've met in ESO would have to be Ainz Ooal Gown, formerly known as Momonga. (spelled in game as Ainz-Ooal-Gown, which means there are at least two of them running around ). Met him a few months ago in a public dungeon. Seemed to be a nice guy.

TheShadowScout

Mannimarco

VaranisArano wrote: »

I do love me some Mannimarco.
And prior to One Tamriel, his boss fights actually lived up to the hype. Like Doshia, he used to be a nasty opponent...

I still have nightmartes sometime. When my main first ran into him, I failed a dozend times at level 40 before I gave up, another half dozend at 45, and finally managed to barely beat him down at 50 with a complete new set of purple gear... Really, he was worse then Doshia for me back then.

But that aside, yeah, no other lich ever went as far on the power scale as to become a divine being like Mannimarco eventually managed. Will manage from the ESO times I suppose?

But Vastarie is still much better looking!

Michae

So the choices are only up to ESO's timeline? I really like the Underking but I guess he wasn't really active before the Third Era.

EDIT: Although I guess not since Barilzar is not yet undead in ESO.

Gabrielzavadski

Mannimarco

I like Mannimarco, even if he is "bad", he had the determination to become the best on something, even considered nearly a god to others of his kind.

But we all know that the strongest lich is the Dragonborn with the Undeath MOD-Dlc

JamuThatsWho

None of the above.

The Underking.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

She used her power to... Not be powerful. Honestly that is pretty cool.

Well she could still be a pretty powerful mage, likely not as powerful as Mannimarco or Vanus but I think she would be up there with them.

When I say powerful, I mean to exert that power over others. I am sure she could. But she doesn't.

Ah I see.

Michae wrote: »

So the choices are only up to ESO's timeline? I really like the Underking but I guess he wasn't really active before the Third Era.

EDIT: Although I guess not since Barilzar is not yet undead in ESO.

Dang it, yeah when I was doing this poll one of the options I was thinking of before I started it was Zurin Arctus
otherwise known as the Underking he would be a perfect example. Not sure if hes a lich per say but I think he would fit the bill for one. Oh well, it would have been a good option but given we didn't have any confirmation he was a Lich. Maybe its for the best hes not part of the poll. Also no its not exclusive to the Timeline of Eso.

Nemesis7884

Obviously Nagash - he is such a calamity that he transcends any universe or lore walls

Vildebill

Another cool lich is Gedna Relvel, she is causing the crimson plague in Morrowind: Tribunal. She's also a general at the dark anchors in ESO, the Lich of Mournhold.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Tribunal:Gedna_Relvel

Finedaible

While they are undead, I'm not sure Dragon Priests count as a lich per say since they don't have a phylactery you need to destroy.

However, if I was to choose a dragon priest, it would undoubtedly be Ahzidal, one of the most powerful enchanters in known lore. If any dragon priest had knowledge of creating a phylactery it would be him, and any of his artifacts we find during the events of Skyrim (Dragonborn dlc) could potentially be one.

"He learned of the seven natures of metal from the Dwemer and ancient runes and dawn magic from the Ayleids. He learned all that the Snow Elves, Chimer and Altmer knew, waiting for the chance to exact revenge on those who destroyed his home." "He had become obsessed with his art, and lusted for yet more knowledge than Elves and men could provide. He sought out the knowledge of the Dragons and the secrets of the dragon-runes, and through this pursuit became one of their high priests. But still he craved more, and sought out the knowledge of the Daedric Princes and the secrets of Oblivion. This knowledge brought him power, but also madness, and he was exiled by his fellow dragon priests."

I don't like that ZoS tacked on that floppy lore about him creating the "fungal creatures" though, that's just silly.

LadyNalcarya

Vastarie

Voted for Vastarie, because she doesn't seem to be corrupted by her power unlike the others.

Finedaible wrote: »

While they are undead, I'm not sure Dragon Priests count as a lich per say since they don't have a phylactery you need to destroy.

TES liches only need phylacteries during the process of their transformation, they're not like DnD liches.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

Finedaible wrote: »

While they are undead, I'm not sure Dragon Priests count as a lich per say since they don't have a phylactery you need to destroy.

However, if I was to choose a dragon priest, it would undoubtedly be Ahzidal, one of the most powerful enchanters in known lore. If any dragon priest had knowledge of creating a phylactery it would be him, and any of his artifacts we find during the events of Skyrim (Dragonborn dlc) could potentially be one.

"He learned of the seven natures of metal from the Dwemer and ancient runes and dawn magic from the Ayleids. He learned all that the Snow Elves, Chimer and Altmer knew, waiting for the chance to exact revenge on those who destroyed his home." "He had become obsessed with his art, and lusted for yet more knowledge than Elves and men could provide. He sought out the knowledge of the Dragons and the secrets of the dragon-runes, and through this pursuit became one of their high priests. But still he craved more, and sought out the knowledge of the Daedric Princes and the secrets of Oblivion. This knowledge brought him power, but also madness, and he was exiled by his fellow dragon priests."

I don't like that ZoS tacked on that floppy lore about him creating the "fungal creatures" though, that's just silly.

Interesting had I known that I might have included him in the poll. As for the Dragon Priests listed. They are indeed Liches. Tes Liches are shown to come about different ways. They can be created by means of a Daedric Princes power, they can be created by other necromancers as is the case with https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Shade_of_Naemon and https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Spinner_Indinael Spinner Indnael . So its very possible they got it from the Dragons themselves as a Gift. So the idea that they need Phylacteries to be a lich maybe true for some Liches but at the same time some liches can exist without a phylactery. They can exist without them and they don't need to be necromancers to become one. As innocent people can be turned into one as is the case with Indnael as shown in Elder Scrolls Online. So I think the Dragon Priests would be the variant that don't need Phylacteries but one thing is for sure many of the powerful Dragon priests are Liches.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

What no Gedna Revel? the most powerful enemy in all of TES:3?

Also I cannot believe you actually made the thread.

Also FUN FACT: Gedna Relvel was the stronger due to a glicth which resulted in her having 800x as much health as your current character level, at level 100 she would have 80,000 health.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

xaraan

Mannimarco

Gotta go with Mannimarco, but mostly just want to comment that I liked the phrasing "...to ever Unlive..." lol

JinMori

Mannimarco

Obviously Mannimarco. This guy literally became a god. well actually there are 2 different mannimarcos from a different timeline, both of them are extremely powerful but one is an actual god.

The elder scrolls, have incredibly powerful characters in it, it's actually deceiving how strong they are because it cannot be shown in game, but think about this. Molag bal is nigh omnipotent in his realm, and he was defeated by the vestige. Yea, it's ridiculous how strong some of the characters are.

Thevampirenight

Vastarie

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Liches in Tes are unique of themselves. In some ways they are similar to D&d Lichs while in a way they are uniquely distinct. They are the most powerful forms of Undead in Tamriel.

From what we have seen it is obvious the Higher Vampires are the most powerful form of undead, every single Vampire Lord we have seen has had nigh-godlike levels of power, hell even Mannimarco would get ripped to shreads by some of them.

- Lord Harkon could conjure a shield that required the weapon of a God to Destroy
- A certain Vampire mentioned in the Alik'r desert dueled the Goddess Leki to a Standstill
- The Ideal Masters had to create a Force-Field to contain Valerica, the Ideal masters are probbaly all above Mannimarco
- Lamae Bal is probbaly up there somewhere as well

The power of Mortal Souls would not have the same power that the Blood of Molag Bal would give you, not even close.

The Shield Required the Molag Bal Shrine as a Component. Harkon was shown to draw power from it.
Harkon's strength wasn't just that he was a vampire lord. It was also because he was smart when it comes to his survival. He was very paraniod of Death. Its the reason why he became a Vampire and did all that he did. He hated that he was restrained by anything. Which explained his desire to defeat the sun. Also I think unlike his vampiric servants at the Castle. It was hinted at in his dialog that he might not actually feed like the lessor vampires to stave off the sun.

His wife was shown to be trapped in a Oblivion realm and for sure she wouldn't have fed for many years. So it seems like Serana, Valerica and Harkon were able to go without feeding. Given Harkons bloodline was shown to grow more powerful when starving like the Cyrodiil Clan. Harkon would likely have been at his full vampiric might, plus after drinking from the Chalice had his powers augmented.

There is this concept I came across online its called Undead Pulse.
This type of concept is what the Tes Vampire seems to be. Its a state where an undead is both alive and undead.
https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Undead_Pulse
The ability to be both alive and undead in equilibrium.
Also Called
Life Scale
Living Undead

User exists in a paradox state of being simultaneously alive and undead by all definitions of both states. They may appear to be alive for all intents and purposes, to any test or scan, but possess undead/necrotic energy sustaining and empowering them, their living and undead states may exist on a scale depending on how healthy they are.

This describes how the Tes Vampire work perfectly. This is indeed how they work, though I would say they still work on normal life energy as they can be healed by normal healing spells they use on themselves and on others. But in cases like the Volkihar they can't be healed by others but can heal themselves with normal healing magic so I do believe the Volkihar would be a more Necrotic version of a vampire. But they would still fall under the definition of Living Undead.
Before I believed them not to be undead. Technically with Undead pulse they could be be both alive and undead. After reading on that I saw that is exactly how Elder Scrolls Vampires work and it makes sense. So they are undead but they are also living as well. Hence the Term Living Undead.
Eso Passives support this as stage one and stage two they are technically not in a stage of undeath. But stage three and four they are.
So their life scale is when they are most fed, they are more alive then undead. When more starving they are more undead then alive. So Stage one Almost fully living, stage two somewhat living, Stage three somewhat undead, stage four fully Undead.
With the new vampire system its inverted when you feed you become more undead.
While some clans might be more alive, others more undead. Either way Living Undead aspect might be common for most clans of vampires.
Because they have to feed and many might not be as strong by doing so. This disputes them in being the most powerful undead as most vampires would have to drink blood and for some clans this would be a drawback to their power. Vampire Lords are very powerful but from what I understand they are still more powerful when starving. So Harkon would likely be full on stage four in humaniod and vampire lord form. That might not be the case with every Vampire Lord as some Vampire lords might still feed and drink blood.
As if they are feeding they would be weaker then if they are not. Since they would be in a more living state then an undead one. Even in Vampire Lord Form.

Liches do not have this draw back they are fully undead all the time. Meaning they would have all the strengths and immunity's of the undead. Though Vampires are a type Undead, they still have weaknesses that typical undead do not have like Drowning though with age maybe a vampire can learn to suppress this to an extent but if they are fully fed I think they wouldn't be able to. As they would be in a more living state and in a living state you have to breath.
Because of the unique nature of the Tes Vampire. The Lich technically would still be the most Powerful of Undead. Vampire Lords being the most powerful Undead depends on if they feed or not. Though its likely a Vampire Lord could be more powerful then a lich even when well fed. Because of the rarity of Vampire Lords. I still consider the Lich to be the most powerful form of undeath because they don't have the Life Scale Weakness of the Vampire that weakens their undead nature and makes them more living as a result.
So Lich would be first Tier undead,
Vampires Second Tier Undead depending on their Life Scale Stage.

SpiderCultist

Morokei

because I love how he looks