Vet Dungeons

regime211 · May 2020

Please make sure before joining dungeons that your gear is optimized and rotation is down correctly! I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation. Even having lower CP is not an excuse to not have some form of rotation.

Vietfox · May 2020

I remember one "dd" who was spamming bow light attacks, and when i asked why was he doing that he said it was to make the most of the Hawk Eye passive

mairwen85 · May 2020

Vietfox wrote: »

I remember one "dd" who was spamming bow light attacks, and when i asked why was he doing that he said it was to make the most of the Hawk Eye passive

Raisin · May 2020

The game doesn't teach this to people. No one should have to Google for outside information to do well with basic game mechanics. It should be given to them in game.

redspecter23 · May 2020

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Everest_Lionheart · May 2020

I rotate the camera while strafing because it helps me to run around in a circle more efficiently 🤪

Seriously though maybe a new player just doesn’t know so that’s a good time to teach them? You would expect people to know when queuing for vet.

As for gear I actually need some gear from vet dungeons to complete my build but I’ve got 2 crafted sets with the proper traits and enchants. Should a player like me queue or nah because I’m not fully optimized?

I would say the bigger issue is players that ignore mechanics. Like DPS taking aggro away with their ice staff or not interrupting when tank gets locked down. Those are the kinds of players really holding back your run. Bad rotation only slows you down.

Before you run in guns blazing ask in chat who is new and who understands basic mechanics. Gear, Low DPS, that can be overcome with good communication and teamwork.

regime211 · May 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

redspecter23 · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

deleted221106-002999 · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

Please make sure before joining dungeons that your gear is optimized and rotation is down correctly! I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation. Even having lower CP is not an excuse to not have some form of rotation.

Pug using group finder?

In which case, wheeling out the very tired, very old solution-cart with the squeaky wheel:

form your own group
vote kick
leave

And lest we forget the other issues with random finder (assuming it works at all) that can be solved by the above:

fake tank
fake healer
fake dps
try-hard undergeared pvp guy looking for helm carry, pulling everything while doing zero damage and is general group liability
try-hard pve "my build is bis from that webland guy" who pulls everything does zero damage and is general group liability
nordic towel wearer
"play how you want" e.g. "I'm a bard and I'm playing my /lute how I want"
afk and/or perma-dead
no food/drink buff
ice staff heavy attacking dd/dps
quester/first-timer who says nothing when asked if anyone needs quest or doesn't know mechanics then complains later

Maybe missed some?

Sergykid · May 2020

the guilt is from the lack of communication from those people. I always give advice on what to do if i see them using only light attacks or spamming execute when boss is full hp, but they don't even read chat, not even the whisper.
Also when they don't use food i offer to give from me but when they do read chat, they refuse because "they don't need" even after i tell them it's like wearing two sets and having 5k extra dps at least, added to more survivability

regime211 · May 2020

Souterain wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

Please make sure before joining dungeons that your gear is optimized and rotation is down correctly! I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation. Even having lower CP is not an excuse to not have some form of rotation.

Pug using group finder?

In which case, wheeling out the very tired, very old solution-cart with the squeaky wheel:
form your own group

vote kick

leave

And lest we forget the other issues with random finder (assuming it works at all) that can be solved by the above:
fake tank

fake healer

fake dps

try-hard undergeared pvp guy looking for helm carry, pulling everything while doing zero damage and is general group liability

try-hard pve "my build is bis from that webland guy" who pulls everything does zero damage and is general group liability

nordic towel wearer

"play how you want" e.g. "I'm a bard and I'm playing my /lute how I want"

afk and/or perma-dead

no food/drink buff

ice staff heavy attacking dd/dps

quester/first-timer who says nothing when asked if anyone needs quest or doesn't know mechanics then complains later

Maybe missed some?

Huh?

regime211 · May 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

static_recharge · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

How are you supposed to prepare when you don't know what the expectation is. Unlike a job, this game doesn't tell you what is required or coach you in it.

karekiz · May 2020

static_recharge wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

How are you supposed to prepare when you don't know what the expectation is. Unlike a job, this game doesn't tell you what is required or coach you in it.

Jobs also require a bit of work to get hired. Vet Dungeons need a requirement attached for DPS/Tank/Heal to que.

OneForSorrow · May 2020

I don't do vet dungeons though. I want to but I'm a coward.

Saubon · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

The game doesn't teach this to people. No one should have to Google for outside information to do well with basic game mechanics. It should be given to them in game.

Game literally teaches you how to slot abilities on your bar at lvl 3 and until you get to 50 you probably know which skills you should use. And even with just single bar and without LA weaving you could pull 10k+ dps. It is hard to justify 300+ CP dd guy in dlc vet dungeon doing barely 5k

EDIT: how did he even reached 300+ CP? Dolmens? Did he stared mobs to death?

Larcomar · May 2020

Last time I checked, this was supposed to be a game, not a job....

Septimus_Magna · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

Please make sure before joining dungeons that your gear is optimized and rotation is down correctly! I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation. Even having lower CP is not an excuse to not have some form of rotation.

This is honestly one of the reasons I stopped tanking, about 70% of the time the DDs dont have a clue what to do. And you just stand there, bored out of your mind because the group deals 25k dps in total. And dont even get me started about vet DLC dungeons...

In most vet dungeons you dont even need a tank and a healer so if you get a bad group as DD you can just carry the rest. On my tank the queue was instantly but I often had runs of 20-25 minutes for each dungeon. Yesterday I did both 4 key pledges with 4 DDs and was done in 20 minutes.

The Undaunted initiation process needs to be changed dramatically, support roles are hard to find and DDs are often useless.

zvavi · May 2020

For those that don't mind long reads:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine#latest

MrBrownstone · May 2020

Larcomar wrote: »

Last time I checked, this was supposed to be a game, not a job....

Yes, the exact reason why you have no right to prevent people from having fun with your zero dps. This is a game and people play it to have fun. Nobody in your group is gonna have fun if you can't even pull 10k dps.

redspecter23 · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

I go to work well prepared. Unfortunately, I have no say in how well prepared my coworkers are. I can file a grievance (vote to kick), attempt to make them better (teach them) or quit that job (leave group).

I get where you're coming from. You really want a solid group for dungeons. I just think that the group finder is not the place to do that.

Let's say I'm putting together a brand new NFL team next season. I can have tryouts, see what people have to offer and pick and choose the best people available to make the team. Yes that takes effort and I have to put in time to make the team work. You want to take the first 3 to walk in the door and expect them to be capable. There is simply no comparison. You may get very, very lucky and get a great team from those three, but why risk it when you can pick exactly who you want to put on that team? You're ignoring the amazingly superb option of making your own group. Why?

Eifleber · May 2020

Part of the problem is that the game doesn' t give you a lot of feedback.
You don' t see numbers that say how much dmg you do. Or what others do. There's no in-game Combat metrics that says you only do 9% of the group's damage. You do the dungeon, monsters eventually die - so probably you did the right thing?

The game should give more feedback. Example. There should be practice areas where you can see your dps, for instance. And some sort of "can you do 10k dps?" "can you do 20k dps?" "can you do 30k dps?" quests. When people see others make it while they don' t even pass the 10k test they may start to wonder if there's no room for improvement.

Saubon · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

Part of the problem is that the game doesn' t give you a lot of feedback.
You don' t see numbers that say how much dmg you do. Or what others do. There's no in-game Combat metrics that says you only do 9% of the group's damage. You do the dungeon, monsters eventually die - so probably you did the right thing?

The game should give more feedback. Example. There should be practice areas where you can see your dps, for instance. And some sort of "can you do 10k dps?" "can you do 20k dps?" "can you do 30k dps?" quests. When people see others make it while they don' t even pass the 10k test they may start to wonder if there's no room for improvement.

Maybe some sort of proving grounds for every role to unlock vet content in dungeon finder, actually this could fix fake-tank/fake-healer ques aswell

starkerealm · May 2020

karekiz wrote: »

static_recharge wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

How are you supposed to prepare when you don't know what the expectation is. Unlike a job, this game doesn't tell you what is required or coach you in it.

Jobs also require a bit of work to get hired. Vet Dungeons need a requirement attached for DPS/Tank/Heal to que.

They have one. Unfortunately that requirement is entirely unrelated to the task at hand, and there is little to no warning to newbies what will be expected of them.

You want a team you can rely on? Bring friends.

Bradyfjord · May 2020

The difficulty with pugs is not unique to ESO. And the solution in other games has been grouping with friends and guildies. I've even completed Black Rose Prison (normal mind you) with a couple of pug dps from zone chat during the Murkmire event. I doubt I would have been as lucky with the group finder.

Maulkin · May 2020

I know it might be a bit of work to execute, but I think somewhere in the learning curve of a single player there must be an undaunted quest that is a dummy tutorial that allows you to unlock the role of dps, tank or healer in the group tool. You speak to an NPC and initiate a test for your preferred role. You get teleported into a single instance arena with a bunch of dummies there and a test to complete.

For dps...
You simply need to exceed a certain single target dps (my suggestion is 15k on a 1m dummy) and then a certain AoE dps (maybe 25k on 4 dummies) to complete. The NPC guiding you through it can suggest some basic improvements for you, if you're below threshold. Like use sets that build weapon/spell damage and crit on your preferred build. Make sure you have the two major crit and damage buffs through pots or skills. Make sure you keep up-time on your highest damage dots and fill in with spammables. Try light attack weaving. Allocate your CP correctly etc. If basic advice fails, it suggests you look up online resources on how to improve your dps.

For tanks...
As a tank you have to keep the Dummies alive by keeping taunt on things that spawn in the arena trying to kill them. You'd need heavy armor and S&B block to survive these mobs, so you don't go thinking you can tank in medium with 2H. Unlike similar overland quests though, you can't damage the enemies so it's not a dps test. You'll have to just taunt them and stay alive until they despawn. If you lose taunt too often they can one shot the dummies and you fail the test.

For healers....
Similar test to the tank. You have to keep some Dummies alive against spawning mobs by healing them. You can't taunt or damage the mobs so you can't tank or dps it. The mob damage escalates over time before they finally despawn. You also have to avoid any AOE attacks by the mobs and red damage circles on the ground while keeping the heals up.

I would even argue that you would need to complete the tests once to unlock a normal queue role (with low requirements and mob damage) and a second time for vet with the mob damage and dps requirements increasing.

Because there's people starting the game who are doing a spellscar farm in a pug or receive a skyreach carry to 50... and they queue into vet CoA2 not knowing how to DPS or Tank or Heal. I've been into vet dungeons before with dps just light attacking, tanks without taunts and 2H weapons getting one-shot by boss etc. etc.

It's hard to blame the grouping tool and it's hard to blame the players too, when the gap between vet dungeons and overland/normal content is so large with nothing really working either as a check or helping you hone the right skills for the job.

Raisin · May 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

The game doesn't teach this to people. No one should have to Google for outside information to do well with basic game mechanics. It should be given to them in game.

Game literally teaches you how to slot abilities on your bar at lvl 3 and until you get to 50 you probably know which skills you should use. And even with just single bar and without LA weaving you could pull 10k+ dps. It is hard to justify 300+ CP dd guy in dlc vet dungeon doing barely 5k

EDIT: how did he even reached 300+ CP? Dolmens? Did he stared mobs to death?

People reach 300 CP in all sorts of ways, including doing damage in easy Overland content and normal dungeons where LA/HA and maybe 1 skill is enough.

And where did you get the 5k DPS thing from? OP literally didn't say anything of the like.

The fact that you claim people should just magically know what a rotation is without anyone teaching them is hilariously stupid. It's not intuitive gameplay for new players. "People at level 50 know what skills to use" lmao

[snip]

[edited for baiting/non-constructive comment]

zvavi · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

The fact that you claim people should just magically know what a rotation is without anyone teaching them is hilariously stupid. It's not intuitive gameplay for new players. "People at level 50 know what skills to use" lmao Your brain doesn't pump out smart opinions my dude.

"What rotation is" I mean, applying DoTs then using spammable is pretty obvious imo.

Eifleber · May 2020

Maulkin wrote: »

It's hard to blame the grouping tool and it's hard to blame the players too, when the gap between vet dungeons and overland/normal content is so large with nothing really working either as a check or helping you hone the right skills for the job.

Also a more realistic dungeon rating next to just normal or veteran would greatly help warning newer player about the difficulty. If Fungal Grotto I is "very easy" (lvl1), FG I veteran is rated as "easy" (lvl2), Frostvault normal as medium (lvl3) and Lair of Maarselok vet as "expert" (lvl 5) they would be more prone to shy away from the latter until more experienced.

Now it's just one blur.

Maulkin · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

It's hard to blame the grouping tool and it's hard to blame the players too, when the gap between vet dungeons and overland/normal content is so large with nothing really working either as a check or helping you hone the right skills for the job.

Also a more realistic dungeon rating next to just normal or veteran would greatly help warning newer player about the difficulty. If Fungal Grotto I is "very easy" (lvl1), FG I veteran is rated as "easy" (lvl2), Frostvault normal as medium (lvl3) and Lair of Maarselok vet as "expert" (lvl 5) they would be more prone to shy away from the latter until more experienced.

Now it's just one blur.

Good suggestion. The more info you give the players the better.

Maulkin · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

"What rotation is" I mean, applying DoTs then using spammable is pretty obvious imo.

There's people out there for whom this is the first MMO or the first RPG game. What a rotation is, is by no means obvious if all you've played is FPS and sports games before. There was no things such as rotation in Elder Scrolls games either.

There's nothing wrong with a game that wants to be a very wide audience game, having some training wheels. Players who know what they're doing will merely waste-5-10 mins which is nothing. But inexperienced players will receive a valuable lesson which will also protect them from unpleasant experiences in the future. Like going into a dungeon and receiving verbal abuse or getting kicked.