Vet Dungeons

Sarannah · May 2020

I do agree with this topic, as normal dungeons are there to learn how to play(this is why fake roles in normals are so harmful). However, there should never be some kind of requirement to enter vet dungeons. As this is a game, and pugging is basically rolling the dice.
Also, rotations should disappear from the game in my opinion(bar swapping and LA weaving is just stupid). But this is a whole other topic by itself.

That said, as a tank doing only veteran dungeons right now, I have hardly ever had an issue with low dps. So far I've only failed like 3-4 dungeons, and those were only because they were mechanic heavy/too heavy. Being able to complete basically all dungeons without any issues may be because I debuff and buff as a tank. And quickly describe a needed mechanic in chat, before attacking the boss.
I'm beginning to think 'low dps' means the complainer is actually doing something wrong, or has skyhigh expectations.

In veteran dungeons most players seem to know what they are doing. There are some impatient players who leave group after one wipe, but usually the group is better off for it. My biggest issue with veteran dungeons is that sometimes dps pulls entire groups of mobs, while they cannot take their beatings.... I am the tank, and will assist those players by taunting, but they need to realize tanks can only taunt 1 mob at a time. *Note: This actually slows down the dungeon as the mobs will spread out, instead of all staying on the tank. AOE vs single targetting multiple mobs!*
The only other issue I have with veteran dungeon is magic users running, while I have to walk to let my stamina restore after a battle.

There does need to be something done on ZOS's end to remove the dungeon difficulty difference between veteran dungeons and veteran DLC dungeon(normal/normal DLC). As veteran DLC dungeons often feel like they are three times harder. Please add a "no dlc dungeon"- option. This also hinders other players as well, as the players who do not want to do those dungeons immediately leave after entering them. Making the players who stay have to wait in queue again, before they can even experience the dungeon.

PS: I myself am a terrible terrible dps player in TESO for some reason, but tanking seems to be my thing.

zvavi · May 2020

Maulkin wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

"What rotation is" I mean, applying DoTs then using spammable is pretty obvious imo.

There's people out there for whom this is the first MMO or the first RPG game. What a rotation is, is by no means obvious if all you've played is FPS and sports games before. There was no things such as rotation in Elder Scrolls games either.

It is my first MMO.

Maulkin · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

"What rotation is" I mean, applying DoTs then using spammable is pretty obvious imo.

There's people out there for whom this is the first MMO or the first RPG game. What a rotation is, is by no means obvious if all you've played is FPS and sports games before. There was no things such as rotation in Elder Scrolls games either.

It is my first MMO.

Cool

Saubon · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

And where did you get the 5k DPS thing from? OP literally didn't say anything of the like.

5k DPS with 300+CP is from my experience. And well, If you are doing 30k dps and whole group dps is 36k...

Raisin wrote: »

The fact that you claim people should just magically know what a rotation is without anyone teaching them is hilariously stupid. It's not intuitive gameplay for new players. "People at level 50 know what skills to use" lmao Your brain doesn't pump out smart opinions my dude.

Just by leveling a class you can tell which skill does dmg, which skill does aoe dmg, which skill heals etc. what is so hard to understand?

Raisin · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

The fact that you claim people should just magically know what a rotation is without anyone teaching them is hilariously stupid. It's not intuitive gameplay for new players. "People at level 50 know what skills to use" lmao Your brain doesn't pump out smart opinions my dude.

"What rotation is" I mean, applying DoTs then using spammable is pretty obvious imo.

Evidence says otherwise. It may seem logical to those in the know on hindsight, but it's not intuitive for new players. The game never mentions the concept or the word, nor explains different types of skills to people. They don't know what a spammable is. They don't know what a DoT is. They play the game by intuition and past experience and for many people that means they play it like a TES game. They don't have the perspective of continuously using skills. It's perfectly normal for them to use none at all because LA/HA is how you play with weapons in single player games. It's a completely different mindset and perspective. And given that they don't know better, they don't know what DPS is (again a concept the game doesn't introduce you to; the only mention of it is on target dummies and you need to go looking for those and probably already have a concept of DPS to see their point), or that their damage is 'bad', they don't know that they need to make changes.

As I said, the evidence speaks for itself. The fact that I even have to explain this is actually baffling to me. The game has always failed at teaching people how to actually be GOOD at the game. And now people are so spoiled with the "we won't tell you what to do because play how you want" situation that the game pushed them into, that they're offended by the sheer concept of it. You start telling people that there's a right or wrong way to play, good and bad things to do? They get offended. And it's never been their fault, because the game never had the guts to educate them. Everything that those 'in the know' understand about ESO gameplay is not taught from within the game and most new players have no way of grasping it unless they make the effort of googling it. And then it's suddenly a whole new world. Until then, they're just doing what they have and haven't been taught.

You're too stuck in your own knowledge if you genuinely think that 80% of new players would come up with the concept of a rotation on their own.

Raisin · May 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

And where did you get the 5k DPS thing from? OP literally didn't say anything of the like.

5k DPS with 300+CP is from my experience. And well, If you are doing 30k dps and whole group dps is 36k...

Raisin wrote: »

The fact that you claim people should just magically know what a rotation is without anyone teaching them is hilariously stupid. It's not intuitive gameplay for new players. "People at level 50 know what skills to use" lmao Your brain doesn't pump out smart opinions my dude.

Just by leveling a class you can tell which skill does dmg, which skill does aoe dmg, which skill heals etc. what is so hard to understand?

So you just wanted to share an irrelevant personal anecdote. Got it.

AOE is an MMO term many people don't know. While such spells do exist in other games, taking out targets one by one, even in a group, is often still a reasonable strategy. Especially in single player TES games people usually stick to single target. The combat is less fast paced, you're not always using skills, and certainly not keeping up several different ones based on timers you can't see. Buffs and debuffs re for tough fights where you're struggling, because otherwise they're not necessary. There is no concept of maximising DPS. To them it's just about defeating the thing.
I honestly can't tell if you're just playing stupid to mess with me at this point? Knowing which skill is a heal doesn't magically teach you the concept of a complete rotation to do DPS. People are used to doing what they know works, the game doesn't tell them that it doesn't work and why, and so much content is fitted to their playstyle that they can easily spend their whole life not knowing better.
I can't get over the fact that I'm actually arguing with someone over this. It's a fact. The game doesn't teach people rotations. The game doesn't mention rotations. The game doesn't require rotations in most content. It's not the players' damn fault that the game is coy about how to actually play it skillfully.

zvavi · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

You're too stuck in your own knowledge

Yeee you are probably right... At least we agree that the game should teach them though

even had a whole introduction to such a system post, but people ignored it (and said it is too long)

jm42 · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

The game doesn't teach this to people. No one should have to Google for outside information to do well with basic game mechanics. It should be given to them in game.

well, I think, it is pretty obvious that the game have skills for a purpose.... though I keep seeing guys doing only heavy staff attacks all the time too

Saubon · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

AOE is an MMO term many people don't know. While such spells do exist in other games, taking out targets one by one, even in a group, is often still a reasonable strategy. Especially in single player TES games people usually stick to single target. The combat is less fast paced, you're not always using skills, and certainly not keeping up several different ones based on timers you can't see. Buffs and debuffs re for tough fights where you're struggling, because otherwise they're not necessary. There is no concept of maximising DPS. To them it's just about defeating the thing.

Even in SP RPGs you can tell which skill performs better in certain situations just by trying them. Yes you pinpointed aoe from what I wrote before, but that wasn't my point. What I meant was, you can get basics just by playing the game. The "No-dmg-300CP-guy" was just an extreme example of someone not even trying to get better.

Raisin wrote: »

The game doesn't teach people rotations. The game doesn't mention rotations. The game doesn't require rotations in most content. It's not the players' damn fault that the game is coy about how to actually play it skillfully.

It would be nice to gate harder content behind some sort of role provinggrounds. Which could at least give hints to player if he fails.
I've played quite a few mmos and honestly non of them prepares player properly for absolute endgame content, so I think players still needs to do their google research to do their best.

ForzaRammer · May 2020

Kick the potato then

Mettaricana · May 2020

Im more sick of people not knowing how to dodge, block or bash interrupt or focus on a target other than boss... the amount of fungal 2, velidreth, and fanglair fails because of clueless players burning boss only while ulfnaars ghost drags me off or gamyu impales me then they all wipe not even trying to learn..

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2020

Complaining about bad players in the dungeon finder is like complaining about getting wet when its raining outside. You arent wrong, but it aint going to change anything.

Yes, this game needs better tutorials.

Yes, the dungeon finder needs to be smarter and gate certain content in one way or another.

Yes, you probably need a good guild so you can avoid dungeon finder in the future.

FatFred · May 2020

What if we put a condition for vet dun queues, for example, If u don't have at least one vMA clear , vet duns queue will be locked for u.

Mancombe_Nosehair · May 2020

FatFred wrote: »

What if we put a condition for vet dun queues, for example, If u don't have at least one vMA clear , vet duns queue will be locked for u.

I could respond to this with a longer answer, which would probably get me banned, so I shall respond with a short answer instead:

No.

zvavi · May 2020

FatFred wrote: »

What if we put a condition for vet dun queues, for example, If u don't have at least one vMA clear , vet duns queue will be locked for u.

It only makes sense for vDLC, not to talk about the horrible fake roles you gonna get, and the horrible tank vMA runs.

xXMeowMeowXx · May 2020

If you PuG Vet dungeons then you’re not prepared....

After years of playing, you should have done your job.

•By joining good guilds or have created your own guild to complete your dailies. At least have a decent amount of friends at the minimum, to accomplish this.

•Also, you should by now have a real tanky, a real healer, and a real dps. That way you can fill any role needed to get the content completed.

This is what you should of accomplished by now. Especially, over complaining about puglies on the forums with how long you have been playing.

tomofhyrule · May 2020

We absolutely need a training quest from the Undaunted or someone to do roles.

My main's a tank, and I've pretty well learned how to do it from having a good guild that will do normals with me and show me the mechanics. I feel like I might be able to PUG a normal and not be an idiot...eventually (I'm scared to start since there's a lot of negativity on these forums for people who aren't perfect). I'm hoping to build up to learning vets.

But the thing is this isn't coming from the game. I'm learning this from outside sources.

I came (like I'd expect for a lot of people in this game) from Skyrim, not from WoW. I know how to build a character to play an Elder Scrolls game, so there's a bit of a difference for building for MMOs, namely that it's not a good idea to make a well-rounded character here. And Greymoor is really playing up the nostalgia factor, so they're definitely trying to get the new players who are used to Single-Player RPGs, not disillusioned MMO players.

The other problem is that there's a major gap between overworld and group dungeons. You can't really make a jack-of-all-trades class, but you need one to be in overworld (unless you're a DD who can burn the enemies fast enough, which is why people complain about how easy overworld is. I know my tank hits like a wet noodle, so it takes me a bit to even get through mobs). As such, people have no expectation of what is required in a dungeon beyond 'I need to kill those things,' and we don't have any special mechanics in overworld either.

But the Level-up Advisor does come by to tell us we unlocked vet dungeons at Lv50. If only it told us what that entailed...

It would be great to be able to PUG a dungeon and get a competent group. It would also be great for the newbies if they could PUG and the experienced people would help out. But while you have people putting expectations on a PUG, all it's gonna lead to are problems.

starkerealm · May 2020

zvavi wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

You're too stuck in your own knowledge

Yeee you are probably right... At least we agree that the game should teach them though even had a whole introduction to such a system post, but people ignored it (and said it is too long)

There's a lot the game needs to teach that it doesn't. It's a challenge the devs are fully aware of. They have the goal of teaching the player which conflicts with the difficulty of not wanting to "break character," for tutorials. Rotation, animation canceling, and builds are all things that should be covered, but aren't.

Indoril_Nerevar · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation..

Running a script👍✌

Varana · May 2020

Saubon wrote: »

Even in SP RPGs you can tell which skill performs better in certain situations just by trying them. Yes you pinpointed aoe from what I wrote before, but that wasn't my point. What I meant was, you can get basics just by playing the game. The "No-dmg-300CP-guy" was just an extreme example of someone not even trying to get better.

But you don't need a rotation.
In Skyrim, you do not have skills. You have spells which you may use (if you're playing a spellcaster type) or you may use a heal if you're low on health - often after combat ended. All the other times, you just swing your sword.
Even in an RPG with skill bars like the Divinity ones or Pillars of Eternity - you don't rotate your skills. You use them if they appear to be useful in that specific situation, and else just hack away with your sword.

As has been said repeatedly - the game is really bad at giving you feedback about which skills perform better or worse. In most content, the difference is not very noticeable - hardcasting Frags does a lot of damage, so it's obviously a good skill! And if you're in a group, the results are even more obscured by the rest of the team - if the other DD does 70% of the damage, you won't notice whether laying down a DoT would've killed the monster a split second faster than just pew-pewing it with your bow.

So it's often not about "not even trying" to get better. It's about not having any in-game feedback that you would need to get better, and whether the new thing you might try is even better than what you did before.

regime211 · May 2020

static_recharge wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

How are you supposed to prepare when you don't know what the expectation is. Unlike a job, this game doesn't tell you what is required or coach you in it.

that's a lie!! You can use Google and research dungeons this game has been out long enough for people to use the internet to figure out how to complete stuff. Hell I have been doing it since the PS1 days.

regime211 · May 2020

Listen guys I don't want to be rude to anyone but st this point you have numerous websites and videos of how to properly optimize your gear as well as make a rotation. There's no excuse to not even know what you're doing. And I even tanked dungeons at CP 225 and had 810 DD and they did not even know what to do. At this point it's people not taking the time to even learn.

redspecter23 · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

Listen guys I don't want to be rude to anyone but st this point you have numerous websites and videos of how to properly optimize your gear as well as make a rotation. There's no excuse to not even know what you're doing. And I even tanked dungeons at CP 225 and had 810 DD and they did not even know what to do. At this point it's people not taking the time to even learn.

You're not wrong. People can do better. Resources are available.

The issue is not that people can't do it. The issue is with the expectation that they should do it. Just because there are resources out there that would allow players to get better or even get to a base level of competence, there is no way to make sure that happens in group finder currently. The intended way to ensure you get a competent group is to avoid group finder altogether and just make the group yourself. That is intended design and is the preferred method to get a capable group.

ForzaRammer · May 2020

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

Listen guys I don't want to be rude to anyone but st this point you have numerous websites and videos of how to properly optimize your gear as well as make a rotation. There's no excuse to not even know what you're doing. And I even tanked dungeons at CP 225 and had 810 DD and they did not even know what to do. At this point it's people not taking the time to even learn.

You're not wrong. People can do better. Resources are available.

The issue is not that people can't do it. The issue is with the expectation that they should do it. Just because there are resources out there that would allow players to get better or even get to a base level of competence, there is no way to make sure that happens in group finder currently. The intended way to ensure you get a competent group is to avoid group finder altogether and just make the group yourself. That is intended design and is the preferred method to get a capable group.

Group finder is a useful tool. Discouraging capable player while encouraging potatoes to use it will ultimately lead to ONLY potatoes using it.

Seriously the community need to kick the potatoes way more often so either these people git gud or they go pay for carry.

JanTanhide · May 2020

"Light attack, light attack, Shield!" over and over. LOL. Yeah, I see it and sometimes we can help them with their skills/rotations but usually I don't bother.

I find that in the majority of cases the player in question gets miffed and either leaves group or takes the "I must have DC'd" approach and simply logs off so they go "Offline" and we have to kick them.

Just have to laugh it off and have fun otherwise it will stress you out.

Sarannah · May 2020

tomofhyrule wrote: »

My main's a tank, and I've pretty well learned how to do it from having a good guild that will do normals with me and show me the mechanics. I feel like I might be able to PUG a normal and not be an idiot...eventually (I'm scared to start since there's a lot of negativity on these forums for people who aren't perfect). I'm hoping to build up to learning vets.

Honestly, don't be too scared of doing normal dungeons, or even pugging. In normal dungeons players are expected to learn, and to still be on the quest. Most dungeons are very straightforward, and intuitive. There are some nasty DLC dungeons, but most players expect those to fail anyways.
As long as your gear(atleast two 5-piece tanking sets), and food is alright, you will be able to tank it no issues. (inner fire and silver bolt's leash are really useful in some situations/bosses)

For a long time I was scared of running veteran dungeons due to people saying they are so hard, and most groups fail. Which resulted in when I finally went to veteran dungeons, I was greatly overprepared as a tank.

In both normals and veterans, even if you do not know what you are doing... just expect to be kicked if it happens. So far I've never been kicked as a tank, even though I sometimes made the most idiotic mistakes hehe(just do it right the second try).

If you want to practice your tanking, go to a world boss with 2-3 people max, and see if you can hold aggro. And if you want to see if you can hold multiple mobs at once, find a world boss with many spawns and hold aggro on those as well. *This is also a good way to see if you can keep yourself alive, and test your reflexes on blocking/interrupts.*

Goodluck!

BazOfWar · May 2020

Trouble with mmo's and eso is no exception, they are riddled with Elitist players who would sooner mock, ridicule, abuse and kick players from parties for not having the DPS/Roatation that's expected rather than help them.

Mettaricana · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

static_recharge wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

If a player isn't performing well, you have the option of trying to teach them, however I'm of the mind that teaching combat basics isn't really the responsibility of those in a vet dungeon queue. If it's still an issue, you can vote to kick and if it doesn't pass, voluntarily leave the group.

All these things become non issues if you just form the group yourself and stop having unrealistic expectation of the dungeon finder. Yes, it would be nice if it always grouped you with amazingly awesome players so your run was smooth and easy to complete, but that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed to put 2 dps, 1 healer and 1 tank in a group together. There is no guarantee of skill level or competency.

Yeah it's meant to put D.P.S! Not light attacking

I think you may be confusing what you want (which in my opinion is a reasonable expectation) with what the system can mechanically do. If a player isn't doing their role well, there is no check in the queue system itself to prevent that. The only thing you can do once the dungeon has started is assist them, boot them or leave. Dungeon finder can and will put bad players into groups.

do you go to work unprepared?

How are you supposed to prepare when you don't know what the expectation is. Unlike a job, this game doesn't tell you what is required or coach you in it.

that's a lie!! You can use Google and research dungeons this game has been out long enough for people to use the internet to figure out how to complete stuff. Hell I have been doing it since the PS1 days.

But they don't

Chelo · May 2020

regime211 wrote: »

Please make sure before joining dungeons that your gear is optimized and rotation is down correctly! I keep seeing people light and heavy attacking with no rotation. Even having lower CP is not an excuse to not have some form of rotation.

Go with a solo build and complete the dungeon by yourself, or try to get a pre-made.

This game have the most un-skilled community of all the MMOs I have played in my life. Why do you think Devs always trying to make everything easier for new players (even PvP).

Overland content is zero challenging. Most of the people who play this game came from Skyrim and don't give 2 cents about L2P, they just want instant gratification, and that's the demographic ZO$ has been aiming for the past few years.

Why do you think Dungeon Finder doesn't have filters like other MMOs. For example "810cp only", or "160cp or above", or even "below 50". Because new players will never find group.

Also why do you think this game doesn't have an "inspect option" (turn it on/off), so you can see what gear people are wearing.

They disguise any source of competitiveness as "elitism". People who are trying to do optimal stuff are not their public, casuals are... It's been like this since the game became Buy to Play.

Chelo · May 2020

Raisin wrote: »

The game doesn't teach this to people. No one should have to Google for outside information to do well with basic game mechanics. It should be given to them in game.

Nope, that's exactly why Gamers now a days are so entitled. Modern "hard games" were just "normal games" back in the day...

25 years ago, Games didn't teach you anything. They came with no instructions, you were suppose to figure everything by yourself.

For example if you play an old Zelda, it didn't came with instructions. You were suppose to figure stuff by your own, use logic, common sense and also testing. Modern games are just a bunch of cinematics that tell you "jump here", "dodge that", "press X, Y, A, B", etc.

I don't know why people think games should tell them exactly what they have to do in every situation, what's the challenge in that?