Should Blood Frenzy be replaced by a better Vampiric Ability?

navystylz_ESO

wheem_ESO wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Doesn't matter, because anything not a gap closer is useless to you from your explanation. You seem to think just because someone can spend resources to counter it, that it's not viable.

Do we have some kind of a language barrier or something here? Because you keep "accusing" me of saying things that I haven't actually said.

Either way, Magicka Necromancers have one skill that can theoretically be used to keep people from running away, and that's Grave Grasp (more specifically, the Ghostly Embrace morph). You specifically said that they/we have, "way too many useful tools," which is simply false. If I'm wrong, prove it and name those tools.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I also never said or insinuated that anyone who couldn't use Eviscerate would be non-functional, and I have no idea where you're getting that from. What I did say, is that Eviscerate itself will be non-functional in PvP, because no one will actually use it. Those Magicka classes who have the ability to reliably use a 5m range spammable already have other options that they'll be using instead (which also doesn't require them to deal with the various drawbacks of Vampirism). If we look at the other classes, who might actually find some use for said 5m spammable, we see that they won't actually be able to use it vs decent players in PvP, as they lack the tools necessary to do so.

But you did! You've been arguing to replace frenzy with a gap closer so that magicka necromancer could use eviscerate. Which then changed to most magicka characters would need it or eviscerate would be wasted. At least that was the impression before you clarified that eviscerate would not be used. I know people think that stamina can't function as a vampire, but I'm not sure ZOS believes that and I believe eviscerate is the way it is because they think this. Which means it's a perfectly viable option to just not use it if you want to maintain range, or if you want to as a magicka vampire, use a class that makes it easier to.

I have been arguing to replace Frenzy with a gap closer (or some other melee-allowing tool) so that anyone would use Eviscerate. It's almost certainly going to be yet another dead skill otherwise. My argument hasn't changed at all, and I've even made the same point in other threads. All Stamina builds, Magicka DK, Magicka Templar, and Magicka Nightblades posses the tools necessary to utilize melee combat effectively. There's really nothing about Eviscerate that should make any of them want to switch out their preexisting spammables. This means that Vampirism could, in theory, give the other half of Magicka classes the ability to have viable melee builds...but it quite obviously falls short. Simply having a spammable with a 5m range isn't going to do that; and if Magicka Necromancers, Magicka Warden, and Magicka Sorcerers aren't going to use Eviscerate - who is? (Sorcerers actually have a much better chance of getting and staying in melee than Necromancers or Warden, but don't have any "need" for the other Vampire skills, thanks to their class toolkit)

Stamina builds obviously aren't going to use Arterial Burst, and Blood for Blood's only real potential seems to be high-risk ganking for the "guaranteed" 1-shots (which is horrible gameplay), or maybe some super-niche high health builds in CP-enabled PvP to be able to do damage while permablocking and self healing...which again sounds like not-great gameplay.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Then your post goes into detail on a few abilities and why they aren't possibly worthwhile. But let's just cut the bull and answer this question. How do you function as a magicka Necromancer if you are not a vampire?

By getting into melee range and using the Graverobber self-synergy. Without that, Magicka Necromancer's offensive potential is quite terrible. I should know, since I spent the better part of a year trying to make it work. And it's not just that I'm personally incompetent, either - I never saw a single Magicka Necromancer that was remotely dangerous without utilizing Graverobber + 3x Harmony jewelry.

If Magicka Necromancer had the ability to function with a melee build, and Eviscerate ends up being better damage than ranged magicka spammables, it might give some other option. Not to mention make it more likely to actually be able to land the Graverobber synercheese. Most decent players can avoid it pretty easily unless either caught off-guard, or locked down by someone other than the Necromancer.

I also think Graverobber is nerf-bait (and rightfully so), so having some other option(s) for damage would be nice, or the class may end up in a really bad position.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Let's put costs and functionality aside look at what each skill does. Frenzy adds a crap ton of spell and weapon damage. Gap closer closes distance and either CC or does damage. One applies to all of your damaging potential. The other likely only at times you need to close gap or apply a CC, which you're arguing as a magicka necromancer is a thing you need to do. It's quite unreasonable to think that frenzy is less useful than a gap closer with this in mind.

Uh, given the nature of Blood Frenzy, you absolutely 100% cannot set aside the cost and functionality. It's not something that should be discussed as though it were simply some kind of self buff that increases your damage.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

But then you say you want to get rid of frenzy to have a gap closer to support eviscerate. Frenzy only requires number tweaking to make it viable again, so is self contained. So yes, your argument would dictate of the 2 skills, frenzy is more useful because it doesn't require another ability to support it. You're trying to have us believe that scrapping one of the best selling points of vampirism (regardless of the tweaking it needs to work well again, or that it's "boring" to some people.)

If nothing changes, both Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy will likely be dead skills for the vast majority of people that are concerned with anything beyond RP (and even then, Blood Frenzy doesn't seem like it would be much of a benefit). If Blood Frenzy instead functioned as a gap closer, or some other tool that enabled the aforementioned Magicka builds to function properly as melee, both skills (Eviscerate and the changed-around Blood Frenzy) might actually see some use.

1. Misread the part about dodge rolling disengage. Thought you were listing abilities that weren't useful, or could be countered out of immediately on use. My bad.
2. Dropping frenzy to use eviscerate would require reworking a lot more of the vampire for the reasons I listed. And you're saying this after arguing that not many people would even want to use eviscerate. Not sure how that follows. You're also arguing from a point that Vampirism is only for PvPers. As nearly every vampire build I've seen tested and posted have use eviscerate. Sure, some argue there needs be a ranged one, but it's used. And if you truly believe eviscerate won't be used much, seems less useful than frenzy. Sure the current cost is whack, but is also another skill everyone uses in some form. Which seems much more useful than the way you described eviscerate. Not really sure how you can argue several times now how bad eviscerate is, so let's change frenzy to a gap closer to use eviscerate.
3. Sounds like necromancers need some fixing to help necromancers, not using the vampire skill line to fix necromancers. I don't really think killing the damage potential of vampire, while providing a gap closer and eviscerate to a necromancer is really going to fix their issues and sounds a bit like a selfish plug to try and fix magicka necromancers, regardless of how other classes use the vampire skills. There are others classes and there is a whole PvE side to this game you can't ignore because you want to be able to PvP better on magicka necromancer.
4. Vampires have better sprinting, better sneaking, mistform to boost speed. And ability to use and of the other speed boosts. I think they have the boosted speed to pursue or escape covered. I don't believe it needs to be bloated even more with a gap closer that takes away from the little left of nightblade class identity, and remove what amounts to a lot of killing power for the vampire. Whether that's some ganker pvp build, or someone in pve able to maintain frenzy better. We're obviously in disagreement on that.
5. My point about frenzy was that the costs can be tweaked. It worked perfectly fine at the previous cost. Sure in PvP it was definitely more useful to take sated frenzy over simmering, but just because 6.0.3 swung the pendulum a little too much the other way on cost, doesn't mean the spirit of the skill is worthless.
6. That's the whole point of these discussions, is that EVERYONE agrees things need be changed. It's still PTS and numbers can still be tweaked. Frenzy will only be a dead skill if they keep the cost to this ridiculous change they made it to. A lot of people use Eviscerate. Currently it's only an issue for those who can't get into melee range but somehow still want to use it as their spammable.
7. All in all, we've been through several back and forth posts, but none of your arguments convince me the need for a gap closer.

• From a purely pvp point you argue that eviscerate won't be used by many because they have better spammables.
• You argue that magicka casters, which are ranged users, need a gap closer so they can melee.
• All for one skill eviscerate.
• To get this gap closer the biggest damage buff skill in the game needs to be dropped.
• Making not only eviscerate weaker, but all damage potential worse.
• That would require also reworking the abilities that would support constant health loss because frenzy would be gone
• Because all these magicka casters would prefer to play a melee caster using eviscerate, which is far more useful to them than a big damage steriod.
• But incidentally, magicka necromancers need help and a way to gap close which adds nothing to their killing power, but at the same time screws every other vampire who now doesn't even have the damage buff potential for frenzy.
• Because eviscerate and melee range is exactly what is missing that would allow a magicka necromancer to kill.

Do you see how this makes absolutely no sense? At the very least asking for vampire reworks to try and fix class problemms. I get it, Nightblades have problems too. For them vampire synergizes and adds stuff that would be really helpful. But vampire isn't supposed to fix people's class woes.

But hey, guess we'll see tuesday and chapter drop day what comes of it. I doubt a gap closer would happen, at least not one based on scrapping frenzy. But crazy things happen all the time. I've already refunded Greymoor and my 6 month ESO sub. I would like to see them come to their senses and fix vampire, and then maybe I can repurchase. But scrapping frenzy altogether, esp for a gap closer would be the last thing to convince me to repurchase.

A good day to you.

Deathlord92

Bat gap closer sounds really cool or fix blood frenzy

Noxavian

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Doesn't matter, because anything not a gap closer is useless to you from your explanation. You seem to think just because someone can spend resources to counter it, that it's not viable.

Do we have some kind of a language barrier or something here? Because you keep "accusing" me of saying things that I haven't actually said.

Either way, Magicka Necromancers have one skill that can theoretically be used to keep people from running away, and that's Grave Grasp (more specifically, the Ghostly Embrace morph). You specifically said that they/we have, "way too many useful tools," which is simply false. If I'm wrong, prove it and name those tools.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I also never said or insinuated that anyone who couldn't use Eviscerate would be non-functional, and I have no idea where you're getting that from. What I did say, is that Eviscerate itself will be non-functional in PvP, because no one will actually use it. Those Magicka classes who have the ability to reliably use a 5m range spammable already have other options that they'll be using instead (which also doesn't require them to deal with the various drawbacks of Vampirism). If we look at the other classes, who might actually find some use for said 5m spammable, we see that they won't actually be able to use it vs decent players in PvP, as they lack the tools necessary to do so.

But you did! You've been arguing to replace frenzy with a gap closer so that magicka necromancer could use eviscerate. Which then changed to most magicka characters would need it or eviscerate would be wasted. At least that was the impression before you clarified that eviscerate would not be used. I know people think that stamina can't function as a vampire, but I'm not sure ZOS believes that and I believe eviscerate is the way it is because they think this. Which means it's a perfectly viable option to just not use it if you want to maintain range, or if you want to as a magicka vampire, use a class that makes it easier to.

I have been arguing to replace Frenzy with a gap closer (or some other melee-allowing tool) so that anyone would use Eviscerate. It's almost certainly going to be yet another dead skill otherwise. My argument hasn't changed at all, and I've even made the same point in other threads. All Stamina builds, Magicka DK, Magicka Templar, and Magicka Nightblades posses the tools necessary to utilize melee combat effectively. There's really nothing about Eviscerate that should make any of them want to switch out their preexisting spammables. This means that Vampirism could, in theory, give the other half of Magicka classes the ability to have viable melee builds...but it quite obviously falls short. Simply having a spammable with a 5m range isn't going to do that; and if Magicka Necromancers, Magicka Warden, and Magicka Sorcerers aren't going to use Eviscerate - who is? (Sorcerers actually have a much better chance of getting and staying in melee than Necromancers or Warden, but don't have any "need" for the other Vampire skills, thanks to their class toolkit)

Stamina builds obviously aren't going to use Arterial Burst, and Blood for Blood's only real potential seems to be high-risk ganking for the "guaranteed" 1-shots (which is horrible gameplay), or maybe some super-niche high health builds in CP-enabled PvP to be able to do damage while permablocking and self healing...which again sounds like not-great gameplay.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Then your post goes into detail on a few abilities and why they aren't possibly worthwhile. But let's just cut the bull and answer this question. How do you function as a magicka Necromancer if you are not a vampire?

By getting into melee range and using the Graverobber self-synergy. Without that, Magicka Necromancer's offensive potential is quite terrible. I should know, since I spent the better part of a year trying to make it work. And it's not just that I'm personally incompetent, either - I never saw a single Magicka Necromancer that was remotely dangerous without utilizing Graverobber + 3x Harmony jewelry.

If Magicka Necromancer had the ability to function with a melee build, and Eviscerate ends up being better damage than ranged magicka spammables, it might give some other option. Not to mention make it more likely to actually be able to land the Graverobber synercheese. Most decent players can avoid it pretty easily unless either caught off-guard, or locked down by someone other than the Necromancer.

I also think Graverobber is nerf-bait (and rightfully so), so having some other option(s) for damage would be nice, or the class may end up in a really bad position.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Let's put costs and functionality aside look at what each skill does. Frenzy adds a crap ton of spell and weapon damage. Gap closer closes distance and either CC or does damage. One applies to all of your damaging potential. The other likely only at times you need to close gap or apply a CC, which you're arguing as a magicka necromancer is a thing you need to do. It's quite unreasonable to think that frenzy is less useful than a gap closer with this in mind.

Uh, given the nature of Blood Frenzy, you absolutely 100% cannot set aside the cost and functionality. It's not something that should be discussed as though it were simply some kind of self buff that increases your damage.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

But then you say you want to get rid of frenzy to have a gap closer to support eviscerate. Frenzy only requires number tweaking to make it viable again, so is self contained. So yes, your argument would dictate of the 2 skills, frenzy is more useful because it doesn't require another ability to support it. You're trying to have us believe that scrapping one of the best selling points of vampirism (regardless of the tweaking it needs to work well again, or that it's "boring" to some people.)

If nothing changes, both Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy will likely be dead skills for the vast majority of people that are concerned with anything beyond RP (and even then, Blood Frenzy doesn't seem like it would be much of a benefit). If Blood Frenzy instead functioned as a gap closer, or some other tool that enabled the aforementioned Magicka builds to function properly as melee, both skills (Eviscerate and the changed-around Blood Frenzy) might actually see some use.

Thank you for trying to talk to these people, their lack of understanding as to WHY a class with literally 0 cc (reliably) and 0 mobility options could use a gap-closer for this skill is stupid. Literally illogical. Imagine genuinely believing that with a melee spammable it is good you dont have any options to stay on top of your enemy.


Also what these morons are forgetting is that VAMPIRES HAVE A TELEPORT ON LIVE.

It's tied to the ultimate, but a teleport nonetheless. Therefore them having a gap closer in the rework would preserve that identity.

navystylz_ESO

Noxavian wrote: »

Thank you for trying to talk to these people, their lack of understanding as to WHY a class with literally 0 cc (reliably) and 0 mobility options could use a gap-closer for this skill is stupid. Literally illogical. Imagine genuinely believing that with a melee spammable it is good you dont have any options to stay on top of your enemy.


Also what these morons are forgetting is that VAMPIRES HAVE A TELEPORT ON LIVE.

It's tied to the ultimate, but a teleport nonetheless. Therefore them having a gap closer in the rework would preserve that identity.

I understood quite perfectly that he wanted a gap closer for Necromancer; who cares what it means for the vampire skill or that it's a purely PVP selfish want. That doesn't mean vampire needs it.

I just prefer it not to be to scrap a unique skill for a skill that isn't. Sure, it's just a dmg steriod. But it's a toggle, and it doesn't take up a major/minor buff requirement. It sucks to hear, but there are gap closer choices in classes or weapons you decided you don't want as well. But since materialize was taken away, it would be nice if they could fit it in for some kind of morph.

WraithShadow13

Other

Personally, i would love to see something like Mend Wounds from the Psijic line. In this case, the power would replace your light attacks with quick slashes that causes a stacking bleed effect and the heavy attack would cause a burst heal based on the stacks of bleed.

It would be more thematic, have an obvious visual for "legal" reasons, as well as still being able to use the same name.

A bat-themed teleport behind the enemy would be nice and thematic as well, but there would have to be some interesting morphs on that before it would seem like more than just a gimmicky ability.

TheSeraphim

Other

Damage toggle much unique very well thought out. Totally won't be just for [Snip], the pve skill ceiling.

[Edited for inappropriate content]

Spectral_Force

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

So I just had an idea - keep Blood Frenzy as is (ramping up costs included), but make it grant you Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well) while active. This would turn Frenzy into a sort of gap closer which you can toggle to get a quick burst of speed and a damage bonus on your first few attacks. Because of the increasing health cost you won't be able to keep it perma-toggled, so it will be comparable to Rapid/Charging Maneuver on foot that costs health, has a variable duration, grants bonus damage (and healing), and costs Health instead of Stamina.
It would also make Blood Frenzy a much more interesting ability from a mechanical standpoint - when before it was a rather boring "toggle to do moar deeps but hurt urself" ability (I'm oversimplifying, but still), it now turns into a multi-layered ability that has a number of uses from "moar deeps" to closing gaps to getting out of the way to making the trips to the Writ Quartermaster slightly faster.
In addition, this change would reinforce vampires as really quick and agile creatures. From a flavour perspective, you're dipping into a sort of unnaturally quick and powerful state that's really taxing on your health. A blood afterburner, if you will.
Finally, this is perhaps one of the easiest changes to implement out of all the ones I've seen, since all you need to do is add a buff to an already existing ability. And you get to keep most people happy - people who want a gap closer get something that can be used as one, players who like Frenzy for the deeps and want it to stay will still be able to get the effect, people who don't like the mechanical simplicity of Frenzy will like its new, multi-layered nature, and Nightblades won't have their class identity eroded from having another teleport gap closer added. Oh, and it will also finally justify being a Criminal Act.

navystylz_ESO

Spectral_Force wrote: »

So I just had an idea - keep Blood Frenzy as is (ramping up costs included), but make it grant you Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well) while active. This would turn Frenzy into a sort of gap closer which you can toggle to get a quick burst of speed and a damage bonus on your first few attacks. Because of the increasing health cost you won't be able to keep it perma-toggled, so it will be comparable to Rapid/Charging Maneuver on foot that costs health, has a variable duration, grants bonus damage (and healing), and costs Health instead of Stamina.
It would also make Blood Frenzy a much more interesting ability from a mechanical standpoint - when before it was a rather boring "toggle to do moar deeps but hurt urself" ability (I'm oversimplifying, but still), it now turns into a multi-layered ability that has a number of uses from "moar deeps" to closing gaps to getting out of the way to making the trips to the Writ Quartermaster slightly faster.
In addition, this change would reinforce vampires as really quick and agile creatures. From a flavour perspective, you're dipping into a sort of unnaturally quick and powerful state that's really taxing on your health. A blood afterburner, if you will.
Finally, this is perhaps one of the easiest changes to implement out of all the ones I've seen, since all you need to do is add a buff to an already existing ability. And you get to keep most people happy - people who want a gap closer get something that can be used as one, players who like Frenzy for the deeps and want it to stay will still be able to get the effect, people who don't like the mechanical simplicity of Frenzy will like its new, multi-layered nature, and Nightblades won't have their class identity eroded from having another teleport gap closer added. Oh, and it will also finally justify being a Criminal Act.

As I was saying elsewhere, we already have so many things that increase speed, or works with in, some built into vampire line already. The idea of frenzy turning eviscerate into a gap closer while toggled on sounds more fun and unique. Put it this way, if you can have frenzy on but eviscerate or sprinting and eviscerate to teleport/dmg to target isn't enough then you could slot elusive mist. Mist is the one vampire spell now that is currently good as it is, if situational.

usmcjdking

Spectral_Force wrote: »

So I just had an idea - keep Blood Frenzy as is (ramping up costs included), but make it grant you Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well) while active. This would turn Frenzy into a sort of gap closer which you can toggle to get a quick burst of speed and a damage bonus on your first few attacks. Because of the increasing health cost you won't be able to keep it perma-toggled, so it will be comparable to Rapid/Charging Maneuver on foot that costs health, has a variable duration, grants bonus damage (and healing), and costs Health instead of Stamina.
It would also make Blood Frenzy a much more interesting ability from a mechanical standpoint - when before it was a rather boring "toggle to do moar deeps but hurt urself" ability (I'm oversimplifying, but still), it now turns into a multi-layered ability that has a number of uses from "moar deeps" to closing gaps to getting out of the way to making the trips to the Writ Quartermaster slightly faster.
In addition, this change would reinforce vampires as really quick and agile creatures. From a flavour perspective, you're dipping into a sort of unnaturally quick and powerful state that's really taxing on your health. A blood afterburner, if you will.
Finally, this is perhaps one of the easiest changes to implement out of all the ones I've seen, since all you need to do is add a buff to an already existing ability. And you get to keep most people happy - people who want a gap closer get something that can be used as one, players who like Frenzy for the deeps and want it to stay will still be able to get the effect, people who don't like the mechanical simplicity of Frenzy will like its new, multi-layered nature, and Nightblades won't have their class identity eroded from having another teleport gap closer added. Oh, and it will also finally justify being a Criminal Act.

I agree on making Frenzy far more impactful. Skills like mist form which are overloaded anyways can be sacrificed in favor of buffing Frenzy IMO.

Spectral_Force

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Spectral_Force wrote: »

So I just had an idea - keep Blood Frenzy as is (ramping up costs included), but make it grant you Major Expedition (and maybe Minor Expedition as well) while active. This would turn Frenzy into a sort of gap closer which you can toggle to get a quick burst of speed and a damage bonus on your first few attacks. Because of the increasing health cost you won't be able to keep it perma-toggled, so it will be comparable to Rapid/Charging Maneuver on foot that costs health, has a variable duration, grants bonus damage (and healing), and costs Health instead of Stamina.
It would also make Blood Frenzy a much more interesting ability from a mechanical standpoint - when before it was a rather boring "toggle to do moar deeps but hurt urself" ability (I'm oversimplifying, but still), it now turns into a multi-layered ability that has a number of uses from "moar deeps" to closing gaps to getting out of the way to making the trips to the Writ Quartermaster slightly faster.
In addition, this change would reinforce vampires as really quick and agile creatures. From a flavour perspective, you're dipping into a sort of unnaturally quick and powerful state that's really taxing on your health. A blood afterburner, if you will.
Finally, this is perhaps one of the easiest changes to implement out of all the ones I've seen, since all you need to do is add a buff to an already existing ability. And you get to keep most people happy - people who want a gap closer get something that can be used as one, players who like Frenzy for the deeps and want it to stay will still be able to get the effect, people who don't like the mechanical simplicity of Frenzy will like its new, multi-layered nature, and Nightblades won't have their class identity eroded from having another teleport gap closer added. Oh, and it will also finally justify being a Criminal Act.

As I was saying elsewhere, we already have so many things that increase speed, or works with in, some built into vampire line already. The idea of frenzy turning eviscerate into a gap closer while toggled on sounds more fun and unique. Put it this way, if you can have frenzy on but eviscerate or sprinting and eviscerate to teleport/dmg to target isn't enough then you could slot elusive mist. Mist is the one vampire spell now that is currently good as it is, if situational.

Honestly I support it, I really do, and I stated as much in the feedback thread. But I'm trying to kill as many birds with one stone as possible in as little time as possible, and adding a speed buff to Frenzy would probably tick most of the boxes of what the community wants (except maybe the people complaining about the cost, but at least the added utility will justify the added cost here).
While I know there are abilities that can change their own functionality under certain conditions (like Pounce->Carnage or Clouding Swarm->Materialize), I'm not sure if it would be possible to make one ability change based on the state of another ability; as far as I'm aware, skills are self-contained, and breaking out of that formula would probably take time that ZOS simply doesn't have. Not to mention it would probably be a little clunky to use, having to toggle one ability and then use the other to get the desired effect. Plus you'll still get Nightblades screaming about class identity because teleports.
As for the conflict with Elusive Mist, I don't think it's much of a problem. In fact I find their mirrored function quite poetic, now that I think about it. Elusive mist is an escape tool - you use it when you're low on Health so you can get back and get some heals, it costs Magicka per second, shields you from damage, removes snares, and reduces your DPS. Frenzy on the other hand is great for initiating fights (which is why gankers love it so), and with the speed boost it can be used to get into fights, especially since you can sprint while using it (unlike in Mist Form); it shuts down outside heals (like Mist), costs Health to use (preserving your primary resource), makes you more vulnerable to CC (that health is still ticking down while you're on the ground), and it increases your DPS. While these two sort of look similar at first glance, they're anything but. Since you can't sprint in Elusive Mist it doesn't make closing gaps any faster, and you can't really use Frenzy as an effective escape tool if you're low (unless you disengage at above half health, I suppose). So these two are actually quite complementary to one another without treading on the other's use cases.
It's like poetry; they rhyme.
Gee this gets me more stoked for it the more I think about it.

Tessitura

@navystylz_ESO
Look I am not going die on this hill or anything, but gap closers are not unique to Nb and so not a core aspect of their identity. Its not taking anything away from them. I agree that Frenzy does not need to go away for it, but a gap closer would be nice to have in the vampire skill like. It's something some magicka builds, not just necro could really use.

navystylz_ESO

Tessitura wrote: »

@navystylz_ESO
Look I am not going die on this hill or anything, but gap closers are not unique to Nb and so not a core aspect of their identity. Its not taking anything away from them. I agree that Frenzy does not need to go away for it, but a gap closer would be nice to have in the vampire skill like. It's something some magicka builds, not just necro could really use.

Never once said it was unique to Nightblades. And have already been saying how much I like the idea of Frenzy making eviscerate gap close, or tying it onto something else like the ult if needed.

Stravokov

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

it should be replaced with a Gap closer that has a HOT morph. Drain essence should be a direct heal/dmg ability like Siphon. channeled abilities are weak and easily interrupted and should not be part of a skill line that forces you to play into the active skills or be penalized.

Vevvev

Yes and it should be replaced by Vampiric Grip.

By the looks of the new video ZOS believes Blood Frenzy "Ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire." I disagree heavily with this statement but since it was featured it looks like they'll never change it. I'm very saddened by this since it is doing the opposite of what vampires are known for, siphoning the health from their enemies, not themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkI9UYcM_ZM

XomRhoK

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Vevvev wrote: »

By the looks of the new video ZOS believes Blood Frenzy "Ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire." I disagree heavily with this statement but since it was featured it looks like they'll never change it. I'm very saddened by this since it is doing the opposite of what vampires are known for, siphoning the health from their enemies, not themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkI9UYcM_ZM

I totally aree on that, also was very unhappy with this phrase. I understand their intentions, motivate you to lose Health and by that motivate you to use most iconic and themed skills - Vampiric Drain, to restore Health. But Blood Frenzy are doubtfull skill, for me, not vampiric, more like skill for the witch or woodoo shaman, and Blood for Blood melee skill, and in melee players already lose Health, no need in additional motivation. Maybe ranged DDs and Healers need some kind of blood magic, to reduce there Health to motivate to use Vampiric Drain.
As for the Vampiric Drain, it have to many downsides, especially in melee PvP, which were not addressed. It's channeling and could be interrupted, leaving you without heal for 3 seconds when you most need it, so you can't rely on that skill alone. Heal from Vampiric Drain does not benefit from Blood Frenzy. It lost almost all damage, but in it's core it's a drain, you not just heal, you drain life force from enemy, so it worse in diversity and "fantasy". So better use any other heal in game. All this synergies maybe look good on paper, but fall short in reality, and worst thing that this can be pretty easily been foreseen with a little thinking.

Spectral_Force

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

XomRhoK wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

By the looks of the new video ZOS believes Blood Frenzy "Ticks all the boxes of what its like to be a vampire." I disagree heavily with this statement but since it was featured it looks like they'll never change it. I'm very saddened by this since it is doing the opposite of what vampires are known for, siphoning the health from their enemies, not themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkI9UYcM_ZM

I totally aree on that, also was very unhappy with this phrase. I understand their intentions, motivate you to lose Health and by that motivate you to use most iconic and themed skills - Vampiric Drain, to restore Health. But Blood Frenzy are doubtfull skill, for me, not vampiric, more like skill for the witch or woodoo shaman, and Blood for Blood melee skill, and in melee players already lose Health, no need in additional motivation. Maybe ranged DDs and Healers need some kind of blood magic, to reduce there Health to motivate to use Vampiric Drain.

You know, that got me thinking - what if it was the Drain that scaled with your missing health instead of Eviscerate? Preferably based on the first tick, so its efficiency wouldn't diminish during the channel.
That way you'd both be encouraged to use it when low (for reasons other than "I need heals and my class heals are taxed") and it would get a boost to its damage. Still needs a damage buff though.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

People do seem so angry that the only class that can effectively use this is the class that do hit and run tactics...

The same class that has needed a big buff for a long time.

WraithShadow13

Other

Vevvev wrote: »

I'm very saddened by this since it is doing the opposite of what vampires are known for, siphoning the health from their enemies, not themselves.

Fully agree. If anything, Vampires should be gaining power by stacking bleeds on enemies, not by putting themselves into an easy kill zone. This is going to cause a lot of issues in PVP or late-game content where one-shots are common. Maybe if Vampires were more of a class, i could see blood magic as a tree, and this might fit THERE, but as just a single skill line, yeah, this all looks to be too damaging against the player than the enemies. Werewolves don't have ANY disadvantages like that, and played right, their timer isn't even an issue.

Noxavian

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

WraithShadow13 wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

I'm very saddened by this since it is doing the opposite of what vampires are known for, siphoning the health from their enemies, not themselves.

Fully agree. If anything, Vampires should be gaining power by stacking bleeds on enemies, not by putting themselves into an easy kill zone. This is going to cause a lot of issues in PVP or late-game content where one-shots are common. Maybe if Vampires were more of a class, i could see blood magic as a tree, and this might fit THERE, but as just a single skill line, yeah, this all looks to be too damaging against the player than the enemies. Werewolves don't have ANY disadvantages like that, and played right, their timer isn't even an issue.

At this point, now hear me out, what if they made Vampires and Werewolves a playable class?

Like, an actual class. Would solve the issues they're having of tacking them onto existing class-options and could be a new 'type' of class.

A monster class. The FIRST ever class to come with built-in downsides. Think about it. Now you might argue that these can't be made into classes because vamps arent pure vamps and werewolves arent pure werewolves.

Well, they would still have access to guild skill lines, soul magic, weapon/armor skills. Basically they *could* be another class on top of it all. (Example: If I wanted to be a vampire rogue, I would have skills for that from the vamp class + I could use medium armor/dual wield for daggers)

This would solve so many issues with the system and fulfill the needs of both vampire and werewolf players.

It is a bit of a stretch, but I do think this might be a possible solution.

I don't see them actually doing it, but it would solve everything.

THEN they could keep a 'basic' vampire and a 'basic' werewolf as the world skill lines that include SOME bits and pieces from the over-all class. That way, people can still turn each other and mix and mash stuff up.

The more I think about this idea the more I like it.

Because as some would say, a class isn't really a 'class' in ES lore. It is just the magic/power your character has access to. Why should vampires and werewolves be any different from this?

Being a vampire is a classification of undead. Similar to how being a templar is a classification of some kind of warrior/knight.

If they really wanted to, they *could* even have these classes have specific interactions with the main story. Like what if Mannimarco sacrificed a vampire or werewolf on accident? What would happen to them?

Vevvev

Yes and it should be replaced by Vampiric Grip.

@Noxavian I understand where you're going with this concept but I sadly don't think that's the way to do it. It would indeed solve a lot of issues, but I honestly never understood why ZOS limits themselves to 5 active skills per skill line. Like we have these skill lines with a ton of passives and no active abilities, skill lines with only 2 active abilities, an ultimate, and a couple passives, and 2 entire skill lines dedicated to PVP that level up together and include 4 active skills each and an ultimate.

With this much inconsistency they didn't have to limit themselves to just 5 active skills on the vampire skill line. They could have very easily added more active skills, had 2 different ultimates ((for those that wanted to keep bat swarm)), included different trees for healing, tanking, and DPS, and had passives that changed based on the skills slotted like we see in other skill lines.

Lets be honest here, this rework was rushed and it shows. They could have gone all out on it but instead limited themselves and gave us this mess.

Noxavian

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Vevvev wrote: »

@Noxavian I understand where you're going with this concept but I sadly don't think that's the way to do it. It would indeed solve a lot of issues, but I honestly never understood why ZOS limits themselves to 5 active skills per skill line. Like we have these skill lines with a ton of passives and no active abilities, skill lines with only 2 active abilities, an ultimate, and a couple passives, and 2 entire skill lines dedicated to PVP that level up together and include 4 active skills each and an ultimate.

With this much inconsistency they didn't have to limit themselves to just 5 active skills on the vampire skill line. They could have very easily added more active skills, had 2 different ultimates ((for those that wanted to keep bat swarm)), included different trees for healing, tanking, and DPS, and had passives that changed based on the skills slotted like we see in other skill lines.

Lets be honest here, this rework was rushed and it shows. They could have gone all out on it but instead limited themselves and gave us this mess.

Big true. I think the solution here WAS to give more abilities for each skill line. Specifically vampire.

Idk why they have a rule of 'oh it must be 5 active skills and 1 ultimate' when lines like Soul magic exist.

Paradisius

Yes and it should be replaced by Vampiric Grip.

Noxavian wrote: »

Big true. I think the solution here WAS to give more abilities for each skill line. Specifically vampire.

Idk why they have a rule of 'oh it must be 5 active skills and 1 ultimate' when lines like Soul magic exist.

Watch out, you might make them rework the Soul magic skill line!

Jokes aside though, I agree on the sentiment that either separate blood lines or just more skills in this Vampire line would give more room to make skills that synergize with each other. Similar to how Undead Confederate in the healing line for Necro Synergizes with the Gravelord line via Skeletal Mage and Blastbones.