Should Blood Frenzy be replaced by a better Vampiric Ability?

Oathunbound

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Or maybe was looking forward to a skill that requires more than 2 brain cells to use? The skill is risk v reward skill rather then a fire and forget. All these people calling for a completely new skill are more absurd because we only have 2 weeks left before release and they think zos can just remove and replace a skill at will. I would like them to do such a thing but they have proven that it takes them a lot of time to overhaul/replace a skill

XomRhoK

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Oathunbound wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Or maybe was looking forward to a skill that requires more than 2 brain cells to use? The skill is risk v reward skill rather then a fire and forget. All these people calling for a completely new skill are more absurd because we only have 2 weeks left before release and they think zos can just remove and replace a skill at will. I would like them to do such a thing but they have proven that it takes them a lot of time to overhaul/replace a skill

Do you think much brain is needed to use it for ganks or overheal the HP loss? In best scenario for this skill it will end up as another weave mechanics, because this skill is out of GCD if you weave it before each attack or before every second attack you will bypass increasing HP loss. So it could end up as one more mandatory weaving skill to be top DPS and it will increase skill ceiling and gap between players. And it will not have much connection to brain, more to training and muscle memory.

Nova_J

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

I've seen some talk about this, and I have to agree with them. What is the purpose of Blood Frenzy? Why is it criminal act? Doesn't look like one to me not only that but no cool visuals no obvious blood bursting out of you. There is nothing cool about this ability, It takes your health its a risky skill to use and your sacrificing precious life blood. For a temp boost in damage.
The name of it should be called Blood Martyr and Kamikaze as the name of the one morph.
So what better ability could we have gotten?
A Bat Teleport, Where you can teleport behind a foe after turning into mist, and doing flanking damage or something.
Vampiric Grip- Grabbing an enemy from the ground and crushing them with telekinesis. Darth Vader Style.
I mean anything would be better then this ability.
So should they replace it with a Bat gap closer or teleport, or Vampiric Grip or something other?
Because man this ability is just a game of Tamriel Roulette and not only that its a lousy looking ability that has terrible story telling to it. Makes Vampires look like some kamikaze crazed fighters.It really is doesn't feel vampiric at all. Would be a better ability for a nightblade, assassin, samurai, ninja type of character then as a vampire ability.

And on top of that the game will have to be balanced around these type of skills. You cant just have a move that gives you 900+ weapon and spell damage on a toggle. This is probably why sets like Balrogh are being nerfed, if you popped your ult at 500, that's 1k weapon and spell damage increase for 10 secs, you activate frenzy on top of that? That's insane. These type of moves should not exist, devs will just have to keep nerfing it and being even more cautious than they already are with all the sets in the game.

OmniDo

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

I was rather fond of the idea of Blood Frenzy until the recent PTS update where they made it continuously take more of your health per second until you either run completely out of health, or you toggle it on/off.

The real test for the min/max'rs will be to see if a static amount of time with it on followed by a toggle, yields equivalent and/or superior results when compared to other options.
If not, then the Blood Frenzy skill will simply go into the undead garbage-can, just like almost all the existing vampire skills do.

I only use the existing skills to advance my stages anyway, as they serve no practical use (beyond the highly situational Elusive Mist for death-avoidance in some veteran dungeon and trial content), and so it will likely be the same with the new vampire changes.

For practical purposes, Vampire as a utility is essentially worthless now, and in fact comes with a penalty, all for the sake of novelty. The only reason to remain a Vampire in ESO will be strictly RP or PvP, as Vampires will be just as weak as regular mortals, and in fact are now an inferior choice when compared to other options.

I could go into reasons why all these changes are merely "signs of the times" (and pathetic times at that), but that's unnecessary. All of this is academic, coupled with a weak spine in response to peer pressure. But that's a topic for another discussion, probably not one suited to these forums.

Jeremy

Other

The original Blood Frenzy was a nice ability. So they should just replace it with that.

Jeremy

Other

Oathunbound wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Or maybe was looking forward to a skill that requires more than 2 brain cells to use? The skill is risk v reward skill rather then a fire and forget. All these people calling for a completely new skill are more absurd because we only have 2 weeks left before release and they think zos can just remove and replace a skill at will. I would like them to do such a thing but they have proven that it takes them a lot of time to overhaul/replace a skill

I'll agree it's probably unrealistic to expect an entirely new skill to be designed in its place. But nothing is stopping them from simply replacing it with the original Blood Frenzy.

The problem with the risk vs reward element is the risks greatly outweigh the reward here. It's hard to do any serious PvP on the PTS - but I don't even want to imagine how dangerous this ability will be there. Even against some of the more difficult world bosses I was soloing this ability wasn't worth the risks. So I don't even want to think about how dangerous it would be to use against a skilled player - let alone a couple of them. Suicide comes to mind.

Oathunbound

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

XomRhoK wrote: »

Oathunbound wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Or maybe was looking forward to a skill that requires more than 2 brain cells to use? The skill is risk v reward skill rather then a fire and forget. All these people calling for a completely new skill are more absurd because we only have 2 weeks left before release and they think zos can just remove and replace a skill at will. I would like them to do such a thing but they have proven that it takes them a lot of time to overhaul/replace a skill

Do you think much brain is needed to use it for ganks or overheal the HP loss? In best scenario for this skill it will end up as another weave mechanics, because this skill is out of GCD if you weave it before each attack or before every second attack you will bypass increasing HP loss. So it could end up as one more mandatory weaving skill to be top DPS and it will increase skill ceiling and gap between players. And it will not have much connection to brain, more to training and muscle memory.

you actually had to plan to use blood frenzy in a build due to the constant drain and the fact that no other source of healing could help you in any way, this include any buffs that go off the "when target is healed" trigger. On a parse, yes its a simple matter of out healing the drain but in a actual dungeon/raid scenario you need to really pay attention. In pvp the skill only has to last 2 to 3 seconds for a gank attempt to go off and yes is beyond simple to use. But in PvE its more complicated. also the person i quoted seemed to has a stick up his arse about someone caring about getting more dps options then being a vampire. and really didn't contribute jack other then calling out someone wanting more ways to boost dps.

Faulgor

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

I like what Blood Frenzy brings to the table but it's current state is far too restrictive and punishing.. while also acknowledging that if they go too soft, this will be a mandatory DPS ability.

Noxavian

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

KeiRaikon

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

I mean a decent amount of the skills in the game are just use ability to get buff and then reuse when buff expires. Also the skills like magelight and dawnbreaker where you don't even use them just slot them for a buff. At least frenzy has the potential to need some sort of management. I find frenzy enjoyable but do wish it had some additional effects that meshed with other vampire skills but as many people have already said with how little time is left till release and just ZOS' general attitude when it comes to skills the most we can realisticly expect in some number changes.

Nser

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Gap closer would be nice to have cuz many class dont have access to it and also remove vampire drain its sucks btw change it to better ability @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun

Yes and it should be replaced by Vampiric Grip.

Man, the whole Vampire skill line needs a second look.

It won't happen, but still...

x48rph

Noxavian wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

I've seen some talk about this, and I have to agree with them. What is the purpose of Blood Frenzy? Why is it criminal act? Doesn't look like one to me not only that but no cool visuals no obvious blood bursting out of you. There is nothing cool about this ability, It takes your health its a risky skill to use and your sacrificing precious life blood. For a temp boost in damage.
The name of it should be called Blood Martyr and Kamikaze as the name of the one morph.
So what better ability could we have gotten?
A Bat Teleport, Where you can teleport behind a foe after turning into mist, and doing flanking damage or something.
Vampiric Grip- Grabbing an enemy from the ground and crushing them with telekinesis. Darth Vader Style.
I mean anything would be better then this ability.
So should they replace it with a Bat gap closer or teleport, or Vampiric Grip or something other?
Because man this ability is just a game of Tamriel Roulette and not only that its a lousy looking ability that has terrible story telling to it. Makes Vampires look like some kamikaze crazed fighters.It really is doesn't feel vampiric at all. Would be a better ability for a nightblade, assassin, samurai, ninja type of character then as a vampire ability.

If they gave us a bat swarm gap closer I would BREATHE SO HARD id die

Omg, they so missed the mark by not making that a skill!!!

That being said, They just reworked the entire skill line so there's no way I see them completely reworking any skills from it for the foreseeable future. I'm sure they will tweak it based on feedback and their own metrics here and there but for the most part I feel it is what it is. Plenty of other things that need attention anyway.

Faulgor

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

Well if you're deliberately obtuse and ignore the fact that it has considerable downsides that require adjusting your build and gameplay around, I don't blame you.
It sounds like you're primarily concerned about visual and sound effects, but to others like myself, gameplay matters too.

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

Tessitura

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Whats with the hostility man? He is allowed to like it, it's a interesting ability that exsists in a lot of fantasy games. Blood for power is a common theme and for sure a unique gimmick in this game. Maybe don't jump down someone's throat just because they liked a thing?

Spectral_Force

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Faulgor wrote: »

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

I see where you're coming from, but even if the new ability is a direct clone of another ability but with bat effects, it will still be directly affected by the mechanics surrounding it to result in a tangibly different ability. The cost reduction it will receive from the Feed passive coupled with a cost increase to its non-vampiric counterpart will result in a massive rift between the costs of the two, especially at Stage 4. So the better sustain can already be appealing to a lot of gameplay-oriented players, and that's only if we use a direct clone. ZOS can likely add some cool effects to it, like giving the target Major Lifesteal, something we have yet to see in the game (just as an example).

Oathunbound

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

I see where you're coming from, but even if the new ability is a direct clone of another ability but with bat effects, it will still be directly affected by the mechanics surrounding it to result in a tangibly different ability. The cost reduction it will receive from the Feed passive coupled with a cost increase to its non-vampiric counterpart will result in a massive rift between the costs of the two, especially at Stage 4. So the better sustain can already be appealing to a lot of gameplay-oriented players, and that's only if we use a direct clone. ZOS can likely add some cool effects to it, like giving the target Major Lifesteal, something we have yet to see in the game (just as an example).

In the end it is yet another gap closer. It would benefit pvp but ultimately provide nothing for pve outside some rp. I would lime to see them revert the ramp up for saited fury or give simmering something extra like all skill also cost 2%hp but are no longer affected by vamp skill increase penalty do away with the perpetual ramp up in general

EDIT
also if the proposal were to be used you would be taking yet another unique skill from nightblades (teleport strike and morphs) and making it available to all. Granted effects may differ but it might be better if the teleport is instant vs the goofy wind up jump on the nightblade skill

navystylz_ESO

Oathunbound wrote: »

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

I see where you're coming from, but even if the new ability is a direct clone of another ability but with bat effects, it will still be directly affected by the mechanics surrounding it to result in a tangibly different ability. The cost reduction it will receive from the Feed passive coupled with a cost increase to its non-vampiric counterpart will result in a massive rift between the costs of the two, especially at Stage 4. So the better sustain can already be appealing to a lot of gameplay-oriented players, and that's only if we use a direct clone. ZOS can likely add some cool effects to it, like giving the target Major Lifesteal, something we have yet to see in the game (just as an example).

In the end it is yet another gap closer. It would benefit pvp but ultimately provide nothing for pve outside some rp. I would lime to see them revert the ramp up for saited fury or give simmering something extra like all skill also cost 2%hp but are no longer affected by vamp skill increase penalty do away with the perpetual ramp up in general

EDIT
also if the proposal were to be used you would be taking yet another unique skill from nightblades (teleport strike and morphs) and making it available to all. Granted effects may differ but it might be better if the teleport is instant vs the goofy wind up jump on the nightblade skill

As someone who is a Nightblade, I agree. Already have teleport strike which also makes target take more damage. I could see how others would like it, but would just make having 1 less ability for nightblade.

Alternatively, if they would make blood scion form change the way each of the 5 abilities worked, it could be snuck in there.

Noxavian

Yes and it should be replaced by a Bat Gap Closer or Teleport ability.

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

Well if you're deliberately obtuse and ignore the fact that it has considerable downsides that require adjusting your build and gameplay around, I don't blame you.
It sounds like you're primarily concerned about visual and sound effects, but to others like myself, gameplay matters too.

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

i too like having a melee spammable with no gap closers.

Unlike yourself I prefer creativity, and Blood Frenzy is not creative. it is a stat steroid. The game has plenty of stat steroids. Except this is a toggle. Wow, so unique.

Also yikes, you do know there is also a uniquely animated bat swarm gap closer that NPCs have right? That looks nothing like any other skill?

And wow sorry to say, but a lot in the skill line can be seen as clones of already existing abilities. Take the ultimate for example, a re-skin of an existing ult that has a morph of an old ult.

Imagine genuinely thinking the vampire skill line doesn't need some sort of gap closer. Do explain to me, fine sir, how I as a magicka necromancer am going to be able to keep up with my enemies so that I may melee them to death?

navystylz_ESO

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

Well if you're deliberately obtuse and ignore the fact that it has considerable downsides that require adjusting your build and gameplay around, I don't blame you.
It sounds like you're primarily concerned about visual and sound effects, but to others like myself, gameplay matters too.

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

i too like having a melee spammable with no gap closers.

Unlike yourself I prefer creativity, and Blood Frenzy is not creative. it is a stat steroid. The game has plenty of stat steroids. Except this is a toggle. Wow, so unique.

Also yikes, you do know there is also a uniquely animated bat swarm gap closer that NPCs have right? That looks nothing like any other skill?

And wow sorry to say, but a lot in the skill line can be seen as clones of already existing abilities. Take the ultimate for example, a re-skin of an existing ult that has a morph of an old ult.

Imagine genuinely thinking the vampire skill line doesn't need some sort of gap closer. Do explain to me, fine sir, how I as a magicka necromancer am going to be able to keep up with my enemies so that I may melee them to death?

Don't be a Necromancer. If you really need a gap closer, choose the class that lets you do it. Necromancer already had a lot of great skills, taking more class identity so you don't have a dilemma in class choice isn't the way to go. Vampires don't need a gap closer. If you are a magicka necromancer why are you meleeing them to death? Eviscerate spammable? You can choose not to use that spammable as you have plenty of other options that actually work fine for magicka necromancer.

Oathunbound

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

Well if you're deliberately obtuse and ignore the fact that it has considerable downsides that require adjusting your build and gameplay around, I don't blame you.
It sounds like you're primarily concerned about visual and sound effects, but to others like myself, gameplay matters too.

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

i too like having a melee spammable with no gap closers.

Unlike yourself I prefer creativity, and Blood Frenzy is not creative. it is a stat steroid. The game has plenty of stat steroids. Except this is a toggle. Wow, so unique.

Also yikes, you do know there is also a uniquely animated bat swarm gap closer that NPCs have right? That looks nothing like any other skill?

And wow sorry to say, but a lot in the skill line can be seen as clones of already existing abilities. Take the ultimate for example, a re-skin of an existing ult that has a morph of an old ult.

Imagine genuinely thinking the vampire skill line doesn't need some sort of gap closer. Do explain to me, fine sir, how I as a magicka necromancer am going to be able to keep up with my enemies so that I may melee them to death?

Sprint. Its cheaper at stage 4 and now makes you invisable after a short time. Also you have access to beckoning armor that pulls anyone trying to range you into melee range. Also if you are in melee combat with someone and they run away from you i dont think lack of a gap closer is your problem.

navystylz_ESO

Oathunbound wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Blood Frenzy is the only reason I'm even interested in Vampires this patch.
I wish they hadn't nerfed it in 6.0.3., but oh well.

Found the guy that only cares about stats and 'muh dmg', you probably played vampire on live just for the passives too I assume?

Genuinely don't see how anyond can like Blood Frenzy as a skill.

Animation is trash, skill feels boring to use, but as long as it gives big dmg right?

Either all of that or you're a ganker.

Couldn't be further from the truth. I have 18 max level chars and not one vampire. Haven't ganked once in my 6 years of playing.

I'm interested in Blood Frenzy because it's entirely unique in a game where most skills just differ in their effect colors, and will require mindful character building to make effective use of, which I enjoy most in RPGs. Not max stats and "muh dmg".

It's infinitely more interesting to me than a Sorc bolt escape clone for everyone but with bats would be.

Genuinely have no idea how an on/off ability that has a boring animation, even more boring sound effect, that just gives extra dmg is interesting in the slightest.

Well if you're deliberately obtuse and ignore the fact that it has considerable downsides that require adjusting your build and gameplay around, I don't blame you.
It sounds like you're primarily concerned about visual and sound effects, but to others like myself, gameplay matters too.

And in that regard there is nothing appealing about clones of abilities we already have but with bat effects. I can just use my bat pet for that, thanks.

i too like having a melee spammable with no gap closers.

Unlike yourself I prefer creativity, and Blood Frenzy is not creative. it is a stat steroid. The game has plenty of stat steroids. Except this is a toggle. Wow, so unique.

Also yikes, you do know there is also a uniquely animated bat swarm gap closer that NPCs have right? That looks nothing like any other skill?

And wow sorry to say, but a lot in the skill line can be seen as clones of already existing abilities. Take the ultimate for example, a re-skin of an existing ult that has a morph of an old ult.

Imagine genuinely thinking the vampire skill line doesn't need some sort of gap closer. Do explain to me, fine sir, how I as a magicka necromancer am going to be able to keep up with my enemies so that I may melee them to death?

Sprint. Its cheaper at stage 4 and now makes you invisable after a short time. Also you have access to beckoning armor that pulls anyone trying to range you into melee range. Also if you are in melee combat with someone and they run away from you i dont think lack of a gap closer is your problem.

My thoughts exactly.

Necromancers just have way too many useful tools that can be used prior to someone running away to keep them in that area, and then if they do, too many options to speed up and give chase while having ranged abilities that can continue to do what they need to. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a gap closer for a MAGICKA necromancer as an issue. Not to give up a precious vampire slot for something that can already be done if you pick your class or weapon accordingly.

And there's something to be said for having some counterplay. People should have a way to get away without constantly being controlled, or gap closed on, esp by someone with range.

wheem_ESO

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Don't be a Necromancer. If you really need a gap closer, choose the class that lets you do it. Necromancer already had a lot of great skills, taking more class identity so you don't have a dilemma in class choice isn't the way to go. Vampires don't need a gap closer. If you are a magicka necromancer why are you meleeing them to death? Eviscerate spammable? You can choose not to use that spammable as you have plenty of other options that actually work fine for magicka necromancer.

Magicka Necromancers may choose Vampirism for PvP purposes, due to the need for a worthwhile CC that can be used offensively, as well as mobility and survivability options. Given the fact that Magicka Necromancers need to get into melee range to have passable offense anyway (I played without the Graverobber Synercheese for a year, and it was pretty awful), it's not unreasonable to think that Eviscerate should be more reliable for the class to utilize.

If Magicka Necromancers "shouldn't" use Eviscerate, who should? As I've said several times before, Dragon Knights, Templars, and Nightblades already have class options that they'll almost certainly be using instead (and outside of Nightblade gank builds, would they even want Vampirism to begin with?) I also don't foresee many Magicka Sorcerers being Vampires, given how little they would benefit for the drawbacks they'd have to contend with. So aside from Magicka Necromancer, a Magicka Warden would be the only non-ganking setup that would potentially have a "need" for Vampirism in PvP, and they would also have the same issues with Eviscerate.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Oathunbound wrote: »

Sprint. Its cheaper at stage 4 and now makes you invisable after a short time. Also you have access to beckoning armor that pulls anyone trying to range you into melee range. Also if you are in melee combat with someone and they run away from you i dont think lack of a gap closer is your problem.

My thoughts exactly.

Necromancers just have way too many useful tools that can be used prior to someone running away to keep them in that area, and then if they do, too many options to speed up and give chase while having ranged abilities that can continue to do what they need to. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a gap closer for a MAGICKA necromancer as an issue. Not to give up a precious vampire slot for something that can already be done if you pick your class or weapon accordingly.

And there's something to be said for having some counterplay. People should have a way to get away without constantly being controlled, or gap closed on, esp by someone with range.

I disagree. The reality is that it's actually very easy to disengage from offensively focused Magicka Necromancers. The only tool we/they have to "keep you in that area" is Grave Grasp, and it's almost a unicorn in BGs (at least partly due to being pretty unreliable unless you're already right on top of the target). As for ranged abilities; are you really going to die to a Magicka Necromancer that's casting RAT -> 3x Force Pulse (or other spammable) -> Repeat? Doubtful. The typical Stamina-build disengage of stringing a couple dodge rolls together with minimal sprinting is almost always enough. Stamina Sorcerer? Forget about it...might as well turn around and find someone else to fight and get ready for the Dizzy Swing -> "Medium" attack -> Dawnbreaker in the back once he Dark Deals his HP and Stam back up.

On the other hand, Magicka Necromancer has no special tools of its own to use for disengaging. The best scenario is when you have access to some narrow areas where the Totem can be dropped ahead of pursuers, but even then the timing may require a bit of luck. Race Against Time will allow you to get 4 seconds of Major Expedition while still being able to sprint, but everyone else has access to the exact same thing. And if you actually want to have worthwhile offense on a Magicka Necromancer you need to use 3x Harmony Jewelry, which obviously means no Swift trait.

And what's this about giving up a "precious" Vampire slot for a gap closer? Blood Frenzy, at least in its current iteration, is only "precious" if you think 1-shotting people from stealth, or zerging them down while they're mostly unable to put any pressure on you, makes for good gameplay.

As I said above, Eviscerate is also currently a wasted ability, at least in PvP. Those classes which can actually use it, won't want to. Changing Blood Frenzy into some form of gap closer and/or other tool that would allow all Magicka classes to actually be functional in melee would make Vampirism much more usable by more players, hence making "precious" Vampire skills actually exist outside of skill lists hosted on various websites.

navystylz_ESO

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I disagree. The reality is that it's actually very easy to disengage from offensively focused Magicka Necromancers. The only tool we/they have to "keep you in that area" is Grave Grasp, and it's almost a unicorn in BGs (at least partly due to being pretty unreliable unless you're already right on top of the target). As for ranged abilities; are you really going to die to a Magicka Necromancer that's casting RAT -> 3x Force Pulse (or other spammable) -> Repeat? Doubtful. The typical Stamina-build disengage of stringing a couple dodge rolls together with minimal sprinting is almost always enough. Stamina Sorcerer? Forget about it...might as well turn around and find someone else to fight and get ready for the Dizzy Swing -> "Medium" attack -> Dawnbreaker in the back once he Dark Deals his HP and Stam back up.

On the other hand, Magicka Necromancer has no special tools of its own to use for disengaging. The best scenario is when you have access to some narrow areas where the Totem can be dropped ahead of pursuers, but even then the timing may require a bit of luck. Race Against Time will allow you to get 4 seconds of Major Expedition while still being able to sprint, but everyone else has access to the exact same thing. And if you actually want to have worthwhile offense on a Magicka Necromancer you need to use 3x Harmony Jewelry, which obviously means no Swift trait.

And what's this about giving up a "precious" Vampire slot for a gap closer? Blood Frenzy, at least in its current iteration, is only "precious" if you think 1-shotting people from stealth, or zerging them down while they're mostly unable to put any pressure on you, makes for good gameplay.

As I said above, Eviscerate is also currently a wasted ability, at least in PvP. Those classes which can actually use it, won't want to. Changing Blood Frenzy into some form of gap closer and/or other tool that would allow all Magicka classes to actually be functional in melee would make Vampirism much more usable by more players, hence making "precious" Vampire skills actually exist outside of skill lists hosted on various websites.

You went through some of the options and discarded them because the usefulness they preset to you or not. You make it seem as if without vampire you can't function in PvP. This is a larger argument than what skills a vampire should have. And you make a better case for changing eviscerate than frenzy. I highly doubt all caster vampires going to run around meleeing just because they have the eviscerate skill now.

And slots are precious in the sense we only have 5 skill aside from ultimate to balance abilities useful to all classes. Not just classes that want some class identity from others. I'm sure there is a reason that gap closers are only part of class skills and weapon skills.

wheem_ESO

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

You went through *some* of the options and discarded them because you don't want them. But they are options and a choice. Someone could just as easily make a case how having a gap closer isn't going to help you any better. You're trying to push this idea that if players can't use Eviscerate in their build, they will be non-functional. This would mean that every class now that isn't a vampire is non-functional. Since Frenzy doesn't require a target, or melee range, your own argument states that frenzy is more useful since it will boost all your dmg and doesn't require you to be in melee range. Anyone can talk away why they don't want a skill, just because they want something else instead. So, no.

All of a magicka Necromancer skills are ranged, so how are you going to try and say all you can do is what I bolded in your quote? Are you saying without vampire you can't even function??? Like that's the argument you really want to make?

If it's really that bad playing as a magicka necromancer, change class. Again I say this. Everyone isn't meant to have everything and if your class can't support how you would like to play there are other options.

I say "precious vampire slot" because we have 5 slots to have abilities to support every class and give a sense that you are a vampire, doing what ZOS believes the skill line should help promote. Giving up one of these very limited slots for a gap closer that can be achieved in other ways is not something everyone agrees with. Sure, the people who want to be married to their class choices without having to look elsewhere for a gap closer would think differently, because you want to have your cake and eat it too. Maybe ZOS doesn't believe that everyone should be able to just pick up a gap closer like that outside of what is baked into their class balance or weapon use balance.

Again, nothing about your cherry picked scenario of how a fight will go speaks to how a gap close will make that any different. But it does speak of something vampire doesn't need, and never have had before. Only the new NPCs have something like that, and the vampire lord in Skyrim could use bats.

Also gotta remember that you can't just pretend PvE doesn't exist because you PvP.

If I only went through "some" of the options, why don't you go ahead and mention the rest of them and make me look silly? Grave Grasp has already been mentioned - what else is there?

I also never said or insinuated that anyone who couldn't use Eviscerate would be non-functional, and I have no idea where you're getting that from. What I did say, is that Eviscerate itself will be non-functional in PvP, because no one will actually use it. Those Magicka classes who have the ability to reliably use a 5m range spammable already have other options that they'll be using instead (which also doesn't require them to deal with the various drawbacks of Vampirism). If we look at the other classes, who might actually find some use for said 5m spammable, we see that they won't actually be able to use it vs decent players in PvP, as they lack the tools necessary to do so.

My argument also most certainly doesn't, "state that Frenzy is more useful since it will boost all my damage and doesn't require me to be in melee range." Frenzy will be unusuable for most builds in PvP, since the cost isn't worth the benefit. Gankers and zerg groups might be able to make some use of it, but a "regular" build isn't likely to give up the bar slot + deal with Vampirism's drawbacks + the health drain just for a bit of extra spell/weapon damage. The risk-vs-reward just doesn't add up in an environment where you can't ensure that you're not going to be taking substantial damage from other sources.

The reason that I said you aren't likely to die to nothing but Crushing Shock (or another spammable) when running away from a Magicka Necromancer, is because it's the truth. You can say "all" Necromancer skills are ranged if you want, but that doesn't change anything. We can ignore the Scythe, since it actually is melee range (and no offense-oriented builds use it anyway), but what else is there?

Blastbones is useless vs fleeing targets. They're almost certainly going to be out of his leap range/LOS within the 2.5 second assembly time, but even if they're not he'll frequently fall apart mid-leap and do 0 damage against a target that's running away in a straight line. Especially if they have any speed boosts whatsoever and/or dodge roll.

Ricochet Skull is just an alternative spammable (and one with a slow travel time, at that). So if you'd prefer to imagine that instead of Crushing Shock/Force Pulse or Elemental Weapon, feel free.

The Skeletal Mage doesn't get used, and with good reason. There was one patch where it did halfway decent damage, but even then you couldn't choose his target, and he'd often stand behind LOS and do nothing even if you were in a fight with someone who wasn't fleeing. Since he will exclusively target the nearest enemy - including opposing pets - he won't even nuke anyone who's running away unless it's a 1v1 (or Xv1 I guess). Even if that's the case, you're far better off using a spammable instead of spending the GCD + resources to summon the Mage, given how terrible the damage is.

Mystic Siphon does atrociously low damage and is tied to the corpse you cast it on. If someone is running away from you and just so happens to run over top of a usable corpse that is within your range, then sure, you could hit them with maybe 2 ticks of Mystic Siphon...which will obviously be inferior to spending the GCD on a spammable.

Dropping a Graveyard at their feet would also result in probably a single tick of damage, which is obviously not worth it unless it's to break stealth. The Graverobber Synercheese isn't as finnicky as it used to be, but is still often impossible to land on anyone who's actively trying to run away and not snared, rooted, or CC'd. Not to mention the fact that you have to be right on top of them to use it, which renders your argument about range moot.

The only other option is to try and drop a Colossus in their path if you have enough Ultimate, and hope it doesn't get countered with 1 dodge roll or a direction change.

So yes, running away from a Magicka Necromancer entails being able to survive their ranged spammable, which is typically not hard to do unless you're already out of resources or on the verge of death. And even in that case, it's often easier to escape them than it is most other builds (certainly all Stamina builds or Magicka Sorcerers).

Oathunbound

No they should keep it but make changes to make it better.

Also side note why are we debating replacing frenzy which has some use vs drain that virtually everyone agrees is a dead skill? Id rather see that get replaced with anything first before frenzy

navystylz_ESO

wheem_ESO wrote: »

If I only went through "some" of the options, why don't you go ahead and mention the rest of them and make me look silly? Grave Grasp has already been mentioned - what else is there?

Doesn't matter, because anything not a gap closer is useless to you from your explanation. You seem to think just because someone can spend resources to counter it, that it's not viable.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I also never said or insinuated that anyone who couldn't use Eviscerate would be non-functional, and I have no idea where you're getting that from. What I did say, is that Eviscerate itself will be non-functional in PvP, because no one will actually use it. Those Magicka classes who have the ability to reliably use a 5m range spammable already have other options that they'll be using instead (which also doesn't require them to deal with the various drawbacks of Vampirism). If we look at the other classes, who might actually find some use for said 5m spammable, we see that they won't actually be able to use it vs decent players in PvP, as they lack the tools necessary to do so.

But you did! You've been arguing to replace frenzy with a gap closer so that magicka necromancer could use eviscerate. Which then changed to most magicka characters would need it or eviscerate would be wasted. At least that was the impression before you clarified that eviscerate would not be used. I know people think that stamina can't function as a vampire, but I'm not sure ZOS believes that and I believe eviscerate is the way it is because they think this. Which means it's a perfectly viable option to just not use it if you want to maintain range, or if you want to as a magicka vampire, use a class that makes it easier to.

Then your post goes into detail on a few abilities and why they aren't possibly worthwhile. But let's just cut the bull and answer this question. How do you function as a magicka Necromancer if you are not a vampire?

wheem_ESO wrote: »

My argument also most certainly doesn't, "state that Frenzy is more useful since it will boost all my damage and doesn't require me to be in melee range." Frenzy will be unusuable for most builds in PvP, since the cost isn't worth the benefit. Gankers and zerg groups might be able to make some use of it, but a "regular" build isn't likely to give up the bar slot + deal with Vampirism's drawbacks + the health drain just for a bit of extra spell/weapon damage. The risk-vs-reward just doesn't add up in an environment where you can't ensure that you're not going to be taking substantial damage from other sources.

Let's put costs and functionality aside look at what each skill does. Frenzy adds a crap ton of spell and weapon damage. Gap closer closes distance and either CC or does damage. One applies to all of your damaging potential. The other likely only at times you need to close gap or apply a CC, which you're arguing as a magicka necromancer is a thing you need to do. It's quite unreasonable to think that frenzy is less useful than a gap closer with this in mind.

But then you say you want to get rid of frenzy to have a gap closer to support eviscerate. Frenzy only requires number tweaking to make it viable again, so is self contained. So yes, your argument would dictate of the 2 skills, frenzy is more useful because it doesn't require another ability to support it. You're trying to have us believe that scrapping one of the best selling points of vampirism (regardless of the tweaking it needs to work well again, or that it's "boring" to some people.)

Why would anyone use vampire again? An unreliable stun? A drain that is already seen as useless because it's meant to support the health cost of frenzy, but would be completely unnecessary without frenzy, since it does not damage? A spammable that does better damage when you're 50% health, but then how do you reliably even get there without eating damage because no frenzy to drain your health? Well at least blood for blood would start being useful with the damage you're taking from a player. A gap closer? Well I can't speak for everyone, but as a Nightblade already have this option. Then mist? At least this ability functions better than it did and is probably the most useful ability in current iteration. But still situational. But since you're thinking PvP, would probably be the most useful of the abilities from the list to you as well.

No one would ever be stage 3 or 4 because who cares about vampiric costs when frenzy isn't there. It's helpful, but not take more fire damage, lose your health regen, have higher normal ability cost type of useful.

But I mean... as long as a magicka necromancer could gap close to use eviscerate which would somehow give magicka necromancers the killing power they lack when not a vampire...

Sorry to come off sarcastic a hell, but this is the kind of picture you've painted for me in how you want vampire to function so that magicka necromancers can acquire a gap closer.

Anhedonie

I'm sorry, but this whole vampire rework is terrible.
A for effort, F for execution.

Also, wasn't avoiding any profanity filters, your site just doesn't work properly.

wheem_ESO

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Doesn't matter, because anything not a gap closer is useless to you from your explanation. You seem to think just because someone can spend resources to counter it, that it's not viable.

Do we have some kind of a language barrier or something here? Because you keep "accusing" me of saying things that I haven't actually said.

Either way, Magicka Necromancers have one skill that can theoretically be used to keep people from running away, and that's Grave Grasp (more specifically, the Ghostly Embrace morph). You specifically said that they/we have, "way too many useful tools," which is simply false. If I'm wrong, prove it and name those tools.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I also never said or insinuated that anyone who couldn't use Eviscerate would be non-functional, and I have no idea where you're getting that from. What I did say, is that Eviscerate itself will be non-functional in PvP, because no one will actually use it. Those Magicka classes who have the ability to reliably use a 5m range spammable already have other options that they'll be using instead (which also doesn't require them to deal with the various drawbacks of Vampirism). If we look at the other classes, who might actually find some use for said 5m spammable, we see that they won't actually be able to use it vs decent players in PvP, as they lack the tools necessary to do so.

But you did! You've been arguing to replace frenzy with a gap closer so that magicka necromancer could use eviscerate. Which then changed to most magicka characters would need it or eviscerate would be wasted. At least that was the impression before you clarified that eviscerate would not be used. I know people think that stamina can't function as a vampire, but I'm not sure ZOS believes that and I believe eviscerate is the way it is because they think this. Which means it's a perfectly viable option to just not use it if you want to maintain range, or if you want to as a magicka vampire, use a class that makes it easier to.

I have been arguing to replace Frenzy with a gap closer (or some other melee-allowing tool) so that anyone would use Eviscerate. It's almost certainly going to be yet another dead skill otherwise. My argument hasn't changed at all, and I've even made the same point in other threads. All Stamina builds, Magicka DK, Magicka Templar, and Magicka Nightblades posses the tools necessary to utilize melee combat effectively. There's really nothing about Eviscerate that should make any of them want to switch out their preexisting spammables. This means that Vampirism could, in theory, give the other half of Magicka classes the ability to have viable melee builds...but it quite obviously falls short. Simply having a spammable with a 5m range isn't going to do that; and if Magicka Necromancers, Magicka Warden, and Magicka Sorcerers aren't going to use Eviscerate - who is? (Sorcerers actually have a much better chance of getting and staying in melee than Necromancers or Warden, but don't have any "need" for the other Vampire skills, thanks to their class toolkit)

Stamina builds obviously aren't going to use Arterial Burst, and Blood for Blood's only real potential seems to be high-risk ganking for the "guaranteed" 1-shots (which is horrible gameplay), or maybe some super-niche high health builds in CP-enabled PvP to be able to do damage while permablocking and self healing...which again sounds like not-great gameplay.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Then your post goes into detail on a few abilities and why they aren't possibly worthwhile. But let's just cut the bull and answer this question. How do you function as a magicka Necromancer if you are not a vampire?

By getting into melee range and using the Graverobber self-synergy. Without that, Magicka Necromancer's offensive potential is quite terrible. I should know, since I spent the better part of a year trying to make it work. And it's not just that I'm personally incompetent, either - I never saw a single Magicka Necromancer that was remotely dangerous without utilizing Graverobber + 3x Harmony jewelry.

If Magicka Necromancer had the ability to function with a melee build, and Eviscerate ends up being better damage than ranged magicka spammables, it might give some other option. Not to mention make it more likely to actually be able to land the Graverobber synercheese. Most decent players can avoid it pretty easily unless either caught off-guard, or locked down by someone other than the Necromancer.

I also think Graverobber is nerf-bait (and rightfully so), so having some other option(s) for damage would be nice, or the class may end up in a really bad position.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

Let's put costs and functionality aside look at what each skill does. Frenzy adds a crap ton of spell and weapon damage. Gap closer closes distance and either CC or does damage. One applies to all of your damaging potential. The other likely only at times you need to close gap or apply a CC, which you're arguing as a magicka necromancer is a thing you need to do. It's quite unreasonable to think that frenzy is less useful than a gap closer with this in mind.

Uh, given the nature of Blood Frenzy, you absolutely 100% cannot set aside the cost and functionality. It's not something that should be discussed as though it were simply some kind of self buff that increases your damage.

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

But then you say you want to get rid of frenzy to have a gap closer to support eviscerate. Frenzy only requires number tweaking to make it viable again, so is self contained. So yes, your argument would dictate of the 2 skills, frenzy is more useful because it doesn't require another ability to support it. You're trying to have us believe that scrapping one of the best selling points of vampirism (regardless of the tweaking it needs to work well again, or that it's "boring" to some people.)

If nothing changes, both Eviscerate and Blood Frenzy will likely be dead skills for the vast majority of people that are concerned with anything beyond RP (and even then, Blood Frenzy doesn't seem like it would be much of a benefit). If Blood Frenzy instead functioned as a gap closer, or some other tool that enabled the aforementioned Magicka builds to function properly as melee, both skills (Eviscerate and the changed-around Blood Frenzy) might actually see some use.