Roaring Opportunist, Alkosh, and the gear from Halls of Fabrication: A look at effect efficiency

Septimus_Magna

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

At this Point I just want them to completely rework RO if they really want it to be a dd set. Making it like MA is redundant because its either gonna be better and just replace it or its gonna be worse and wont be worth Picking up.

The major issue with MA and WM is that only classes with cheap ults can make these sets work.

RO should be useful on all mag DD classes, if there's nothing useful to get from the new trail most players will run it once on normal and forget about it.

John_Falstaff

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

At this Point I just want them to completely rework RO if they really want it to be a dd set. Making it like MA is redundant because its either gonna be better and just replace it or its gonna be worse and wont be worth Picking up.

The major issue with MA and WM is that only classes with cheap ults can make these sets work.

RO should be useful on all mag DD classes, if there's nothing useful to get from the new trail most players will run it once on normal and forget about it.

That's not an issue. That's the great thing about it. Classes with expensive ults can run their own sets - sets that actually work towards their damage - and still have Slayer uptime, they only have to take NB, templar or warden into their group. Two birds with one stone; encouraging class diversity and getting bonus without having to wear a set for it. That's the whole idea of the set, and it's good. I'll sigh with relief if RO will be released as a total garbage.

OWLTHEMAD

code65536 wrote: »

TL;DR summary: Reduce Roaring's effect from 12 to 3 people. Increase the effect of Vrol's Command, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense to 12 people.


Introduction: Why is Alkosh a support set?

Roar of Alkosh was intended by ZOS to be a damage-dealer set. But the reality is that this is a set used almost exclusively by tanks, and the only time damage dealers used this set was very early in this set's life (back before players got the idea to use it on tanks) and when hitbox problems prevented Alkosh from hitting the bosses in Sunspire if used from a tank's position.

Question: So, why is Alkosh actually a support set, despite ZOS's clear intent that it be a damage-dealer set?
Answer: Because it is efficient in its effect. Specifically, what I mean here by "efficient" is that because this is a set that debuffs targets, its effect benefits everyone in the group.

In a trials group of 12, you just need 1 person to use Alkosh. That's what I mean by "efficient". Furthermore, because the effect does not stack, it is actually disadvantageous to have too many people wear Alkosh, since the extra effect procs will just be wasted. So even if a damage dealer were to wear Alkosh, it would only make sense for 1 damage dealer to wear the set--there's little point in having the other 7 to wear it.

If you think about it, every popular support set is one that can affect a full group of 12; they're all "efficient". Ebon. Worm. Hircine. Yolnahkriin. Olorime. Alkosh.

Why is Roaring Opportunist the next Alkosh?

Four years later, we have another "Roar" set, this time Roaring Opportunist, which grants Major Slayer to 12 people upon the completion of a heavy attack. As it currently stands, even after the week 2 PTS changes, this is a support set.

1. One person can give Major Slayer to a full trials group of 12.
2. You can't have more than one person wear this set because of the cooldown.
3. In order to get the most out of this set, it's necessary to build specifically for heavy attacks, and for the kinds of players that this set is aimed at (players who run trials), it's one thing to ask them to heavy attack every now and then (which many do anyway for sustain), but it's quite another to ask them to build specifically for heavy attacks. And without a heavy-attack build, a damage dealer is not going to do that much more heavy attack damage than a healer (particularly since it is now commonplace for healers to spec more into spell damage) and will not get significantly more uptime than a healer.

So the reality is that, despite the week 2 changes, Roaring Opportunist is still considered by players to be a support set. The only difference now is that it's a weaker support set, and groups are now considering having healers come on the DK class because of the DK's unique class ability to boost heavy attack damage.

How do you fix Roaring Opportunist?

There's a very simple solution to this problem: Cap the Roaring Opportunist effect to three players. Eliminate/revert the duration scaling from heavy attack damage. And instead of Roaring Opportunist becoming the next Alkosh, it will become the next Master Architect. Roaring Opportunist has the (ahem) opportunity to become a more desirable alternative to Master Architect, particularly for those classes that lack cheap ultimates.

That's it. If you want RO to be a set used by damage-dealers, you MUST eliminate the 12-person effect. As long as it can affect 12, people will look for ways to shoehorn it onto a support. And even if groups do decided to put RO on a damage-dealer, only one damage dealer could use the set. All other RO sets in the group would be wasted. Is that what you really want, ZOS? For a damage-dealer set to be usable by only 1 out of 8 DDs in a group?

Effect efficiency and Major Aegis

Vrol's Command suffers from the opposite problem. This is a set that is designed to be a support set, but supports will never use it. Why? Because it's inefficient. In order to cover the entire group, you need both of your tanks to run it. It's one thing to ask one tank to sacrifice a set for Vrol. But asking both tanks to do this? No, I can't imagine any group accepting that level of sacrifice.

I find it amusingly ironic that ZOS made the mistake of letting Roaring affect 12 people while also making the exact opposite mistake of letting Vrol affect only 6.

Furthermore, this is the same mistake that was made with Inventor's Guard and Automated Defense.

The Major Aegis sets from Halls of Fabrication are automatic decons for everyone. Why? Because they affect only 3 people. In order to cover an entire group, you'll need all four supports running Inventors/Automated. That's completely impractical.

I imagine, back in 2017 when the Halls sets were designed, that someone at ZOS thought, "Well, the Major Slayer sets affect 3 people. So wouldn't it be nice and symmetrical for the Major Aegis sets also affect 3 people?" The problem with that symmetry in the set design is that, in practice, the roles are not symmetrical. You have 8 DDs, but only 2 healer and 2 tanks. There are a lot more DDs than there are supports.

Also, defensive bonuses really need to go to everyone. If someone doesn't get an offensive bonus, that's fine, they just do a bit less damage, but that's not a big deal. But for defensive bonuses, if someone needs a defensive buff to survive, then not getting it means death. In places where groups need to mitigate a lot of damage, the damage usually affects everyone. Think about the execute phase on Assembly General. Or the laser on Lokkestiiz HM. Major Aegis is never a consideration in those scenarios because we need that buff on everyone, and in order to get it, we would would need to sacrifice four support slots (if using Halls support sets) or two support slots (if using Vrol).

The Galenwe treatment

There is one more trials support set that ZOS had made this mistake with: Galenwe. Before the Update 26 PTS, Galenwe affected only 3 people. It was too inefficient to be used as a support set. But with Update 26, Galenwe can now affect an entire trials group, and suddenly, the set is on the radar for consideration instead of automatic decon fodder. This was a great and necessary change. Now you need to do the same for Vrol, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense. All three of these sets could be interesting and useful in certain situations, if only they were able to affect everyone.

And of course, you need to do the opposite for Roaring Opportunist. Reducing the effect count is the only way to get people to actually use RO on damage dealers instead of on a support or just a single damage dealer. And it would make it a far more balanced set.

You think it would be possible [Snip] to have zos hire this guy for set design?

[Snip]

[Edited for bashing/petition]

Zippy81

War Machine and Master Architect sets are fine, great design, a nice trial reward. It's the Lokke set that is bad design. That set is made for burst damage and as such should have a cooldown to make it useful but only in specific moments, like entering the miniboss zone in Sunspire.

The heavy attacking idea is clunky and that works for tanks and healers. Both support roles need to know WHEN to use a heavy attack. That's skill, not just button mashing. Block -> tanks (e.g. Galenwe set), heavy attacking -> healers.

If WM and MA are made for damage dealers with cheap ultimates, you can make Roaring the opposite - for damage dealers with expensive ultimates, just make the buff longer based on 2 aspects: ultimate cost of the ability AND spell damage/max magicka, something you introduced for the engulfing flames.

Sets like Alkosh are a different animal. That set has been OP for a really long time. I know I'll probably annoy a few guys but that set could get a similar treatment like engulfing flames but it could be based on weapon damage/max stamina instead. It'd still be possible to use it on an offtank in some situations.

I don't want more power creep.

John_Falstaff

Zippy81 wrote: »

Sets like Alkosh are a different animal. That set has been OP for a really long time. I know I'll probably annoy a few guys but that set could get a similar treatment like engulfing flames but it could be based on weapon damage/max stamina instead. It'd still be possible to use it on an offtank in some situations.

Don't know how it's OP and not a good example of a support set instead. And not sure what would it achieve except pissing off already dwindling tanking community. Sure, you can follow MA design pattern and make it a buff instead of debuff - as in, it gives same amount of physical/spell penetration to wearer and two neighbors, but it might as well just tip the scales towards all magicka groups that have easier time reaching the cap.

As for proposal regarding Roaring, I'm not sure if it's easy to make it useful for people with expensive ults without overshadowing MA, because if it scales off ultimate cost, it might be plain better and that'll mean homogenization, and if will be strictly for expensive ults - well, everyone has access to things like destroult. At that point, I'm pretty sure ZOS should introduce new buffs without fearing power creep; feeling more powerful as you progress the game is a normal thing.

Zippy81

John_Falstaff wrote: »

As for proposal regarding Roaring, I'm not sure if it's easy to make it useful for people with expensive ults without overshadowing MA, because if it scales off ultimate cost, it might be plain better and that'll mean homogenization, and if will be strictly for expensive ults - well, everyone has access to things like destroult. At that point, I'm pretty sure ZOS should introduce new buffs without fearing power creep; feeling more powerful as you progress the game is a normal thing.

Destro ult, colossus, other expensive abilities are a great example.

WM/MA -> 10 seconds for below 100 ulti for 2 players.
Lokke -> 10 seconds for one player, 20 sec cooldown, proc from synergies

RO -> 3 seconds for 100 ulti, 6 seconds for 200 ulti, 9 seconds for 300 ulti, 12 seconds for 400 ulti, 15 seconds for 500 ulti (for 6 players)

This way RO wouldn't overshadow other sets. It would actually allow players to use different sources of Major Slayer for some of them to keep that buff 100% of the time.

Vaoh

Perfect post, 100% agree on every point made. I just hope they listen and make the appropriate changes.

Marteene

@code65536 really great post, hopefully @ZOS_BrianWheeler and the team will take some of you suggestions seriously.

John_Falstaff

@Zippy81 , hm, I've a feeling that three people rotating destroults with that set will pretty much make MA obsolete, and it might have additional effect of further empowering already existing practice of stacking several necros and rotating colossi for Vulnerablity (which will be stacked with Slayer). Why I was thinking about completely another buff for RO is that it won't have any points where it would clash with existing MA - if it will, then sets will compete (keeping 100% uptime by managing non-overlapping proc windows of two separate sets affecting 2 or 6 people each sounds like too much to keep track of) for place under the sun and one will just make the other one unneeded. That's the problem I see with that idea - those sets are hard to make work in a single run, and once people will figure what combination - small ults with MA or big ults with RO - will be strictly better, that'll be meta and devil takes the hindmost.

Septimus_Magna

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

At this Point I just want them to completely rework RO if they really want it to be a dd set. Making it like MA is redundant because its either gonna be better and just replace it or its gonna be worse and wont be worth Picking up.

The major issue with MA and WM is that only classes with cheap ults can make these sets work.

RO should be useful on all mag DD classes, if there's nothing useful to get from the new trail most players will run it once on normal and forget about it.

That's not an issue. That's the great thing about it. Classes with expensive ults can run their own sets - sets that actually work towards their damage - and still have Slayer uptime, they only have to take NB, templar or warden into their group. Two birds with one stone; encouraging class diversity and getting bonus without having to wear a set for it. That's the whole idea of the set, and it's good. I'll sigh with relief if RO will be released as a total garbage.

I agree its a good thing in terms of group composition, its a bad thing for some classes because they are forced to stick with old sets. When new content is released I want to play it because its new but I also want to get something from it to improve one of my builds in some way. New content is fun but there has to be some other motivation to run more than a couple times.

Releasing a new trail where players literally can get nothing to improve their builds just is a very bad idea.
Meanwhile people still run Craglorn trails because some of those sets are still useful..

John_Falstaff

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

At this Point I just want them to completely rework RO if they really want it to be a dd set. Making it like MA is redundant because its either gonna be better and just replace it or its gonna be worse and wont be worth Picking up.

The major issue with MA and WM is that only classes with cheap ults can make these sets work.

RO should be useful on all mag DD classes, if there's nothing useful to get from the new trail most players will run it once on normal and forget about it.

That's not an issue. That's the great thing about it. Classes with expensive ults can run their own sets - sets that actually work towards their damage - and still have Slayer uptime, they only have to take NB, templar or warden into their group. Two birds with one stone; encouraging class diversity and getting bonus without having to wear a set for it. That's the whole idea of the set, and it's good. I'll sigh with relief if RO will be released as a total garbage.

I agree its a good thing in terms of group composition, its a bad thing for some classes because they are forced to stick with old sets. When new content is released I want to play it because its new but I also want to get something from it to improve one of my builds in some way. New content is fun but there has to be some other motivation to run more than a couple times.

Releasing a new trail where players literally can get nothing to improve their builds just is a very bad idea.
Meanwhile people still run Craglorn trails because some of those sets are still useful..

Thing is... I'm not sure if it's such a bad thing - sticking with old sets. Sure, I appreciate new and shiny things, it's fun, it makes me feel progress, and I definitely would like more fun and efficient sets to come out. That's why I'd rather them assign completely new buff to RO without touching what's not broken with MA - some fantasy from devs, and it can add new stuff without killing old. I'm just not sure I believe in them to make such a fundamental rework after two weeks of PTS, and the choice is either lackluster support sets for very specialized comps, or Alkosh v2.0 that'll hurt group diversity (in times when group already suffer from class stacking). Former's probably lesser of two evils.

To think of it, even such simple (and recent!) idea as releasing magicka version of Vicious Ophidian was a roaring success, it's new, it's fun, it mixed up things in good way - shift towards better sustain enabled more use of bi-stat food, helped sustain-stranded petsorcs somewhat, and so on, and so forth. I absolutely can't imagine why ZOS wouldn't just scrape RO's current stats and simply won't make it magicka Tzogvin's, that'll be a blast, not having icky melee-only trap or rotation-breaking channeled acceleration on bars. But, it's how it is, for some reason ZOS goes for destructive path instead of making a set that is a simple and sweet QoL improvement over the dated MS.

Septimus_Magna

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

At this Point I just want them to completely rework RO if they really want it to be a dd set. Making it like MA is redundant because its either gonna be better and just replace it or its gonna be worse and wont be worth Picking up.

The major issue with MA and WM is that only classes with cheap ults can make these sets work.

RO should be useful on all mag DD classes, if there's nothing useful to get from the new trail most players will run it once on normal and forget about it.

That's not an issue. That's the great thing about it. Classes with expensive ults can run their own sets - sets that actually work towards their damage - and still have Slayer uptime, they only have to take NB, templar or warden into their group. Two birds with one stone; encouraging class diversity and getting bonus without having to wear a set for it. That's the whole idea of the set, and it's good. I'll sigh with relief if RO will be released as a total garbage.

I agree its a good thing in terms of group composition, its a bad thing for some classes because they are forced to stick with old sets. When new content is released I want to play it because its new but I also want to get something from it to improve one of my builds in some way. New content is fun but there has to be some other motivation to run more than a couple times.

Releasing a new trail where players literally can get nothing to improve their builds just is a very bad idea.
Meanwhile people still run Craglorn trails because some of those sets are still useful..

Thing is... I'm not sure if it's such a bad thing - sticking with old sets. Sure, I appreciate new and shiny things, it's fun, it makes me feel progress, and I definitely would like more fun and efficient sets to come out. That's why I'd rather them assign completely new buff to RO without touching what's not broken with MA - some fantasy from devs, and it can add new stuff without killing old. I'm just not sure I believe in them to make such a fundamental rework after two weeks of PTS, and the choice is either lackluster support sets for very specialized comps, or Alkosh v2.0 that'll hurt group diversity (in times when group already suffer from class stacking). Former's probably lesser of two evils.

To think of it, even such simple (and recent!) idea as releasing magicka version of Vicious Ophidian was a roaring success, it's new, it's fun, it mixed up things in good way - shift towards better sustain enabled more use of bi-stat food, helped sustain-stranded petsorcs somewhat, and so on, and so forth. I absolutely can't imagine why ZOS wouldn't just scrape RO's current stats and simply won't make it magicka Tzogvin's, that'll be a blast, not having icky melee-only trap or rotation-breaking channeled acceleration on bars. But, it's how it is, for some reason ZOS goes for destructive path instead of making a set that is a simple and sweet QoL improvement over the dated MS.

I also dont think RO will be changed to a level where its somewhat useful for mag DDs. When Greymoor is released the only think I am currently plan on getting is a couple vDSA weapons and the Thrassian Stranglers mythic gloves. I dont have to play in any of the new zones which is a pretty sad for such a big update. I genuinely dont understand why its so difficult to give mag DDs something useful, the fact that the last useful mag DD set mainly improves sustain says quite a lot...

Kolzki

The nerf to Vrol's Command, based on standardisation calculations, is concering after widespread feedback from players that the set is weak. The nerfs suggest that the developers' standardisation calculations are not good at calculating the power of support and defensive sets.

Inventor's Guard and Automated Defense have similar problems to Vrol's Command. Like Major Protection, Major Aegis could be a situationally useful defensive buff, but the Major Aegis sets have awkward proc conditions and only protect a small fraction of a raid group's members.

As an example, a tank could use Major Aegis to protect the group during mechanics. To do that using Vrol's Command they need to wait until the right time to heavy attack. This makes heavy attacking for resources awkward because Vrol's Command might proc at the wrong time. When it does proc, only half of the group is then protected. The other half of the group dies to the mechanic. A simple % mitigation and % up time calculation will not capture this.

No doubt, the strength of these sets is hard to balance, but their balancing has be focused on how these utility sets are used, not just on up times and % mitigation. As Major Aegis only applies in dungeons and trials, the Major Aegis sets could be tailored to this content without worrying about balance elsewhere. There is an opportunity for Major Aegis sets to become "rule breakers" that are very powerful in specific situations and fun to use, but to do this they need to be balanced with those situtations in mind.

kylewwefan

I saw a thread that explained we don’t really have support roles in this game and a few changes could really fix that. Tank is a role. Healer is a role. Damage Dealer is a role. Support could be a role. Long as people could get over being a buff bit**.

I hadn’t really thought of it this way before, but it makes sense kind of.

In this very thread is a great idea to fix alkosh by having it scale from weapon damage like the DK skill that makes take more flame damage. That would make it fairly worthless on a tank and a decent stamina dps/support set.

Alkosh, should be a support set like Morag Tong or Sunderflame, or Hallowfang or any other number of dungeon and overland sets that could use some Love.

What if minor force were taken off of trap beast and you could only get it from twilight or maybe channeled acceleration. Say the timer was dropped down to 10 seconds from 30. Twilight would be looking real good for once.

Firstmep

Both this set and Yadirs might were clearly created with the assumption that the off-cycle light/heavy attack changes would go through. They didnt.
Both sets should have been reworked the minute the devs knew.
In case of Yandirs might it at least had the potential to be a very good pvp set, but the devs decided it was too powerful?
Which is weird beacuse we already have a set for magicka that has the recovery/spd duality: Moon Dancer.
Now of course MD doesnt have a perfected version, and its generally not used anymore, but i still like the design concept of the set.
Unfortunately just like MD, Yandirs simply doesnt have a place in a trial environment, especially on the stamina side, beacuse sustain isnt really that much of an issue anymore.
Have this set been released during Morrowind, i wouldve farmed the everliving *** out of it, not anymore though.
I would still like the core idea behind Yandirs to be implemented some day, probably outside of a trial environment, but i think for now the set needs to be completely reworked.
Same goes for RO, i feel like the people who design these sets arent really in touch with how end game trial groups gear themselves out.

John_Falstaff

@kylewwefan , what are you going to do on tank in 4-mans then? Hold right mouse button? There's no place for dedicated support roles in dungeons, and only four sets to run between healer and tank. Your proposal is a blanket nerf to all roles. Even in trials there are only twelve people, and stripping part of current functions off tanks and healers would mean that one more DD has to take one for the team, or go full damage and dump more points in piercing. Or more likely go magicka, which would be the likely effect of adjusting Alkosh like people here propose.

Tank in ESO -is- a support role, not a meat shield. It's a different game, different paradigm, less constraints, and there's no need to artificially impose them.

code65536

Kolzki wrote: »

The nerf to Vrol's Command, based on standardisation calculations, is concering after widespread feedback from players that the set is weak. The nerfs suggest that the developers' standardisation calculations are not good at calculating the power of support and defensive sets.

Inventor's Guard and Automated Defense have similar problems to Vrol's Command. Like Major Protection, Major Aegis could be a situationally useful defensive buff, but the Major Aegis sets have awkward proc conditions and only protect a small fraction of a raid group's members.

As an example, a tank could use Major Aegis to protect the group during mechanics. To do that using Vrol's Command they need to wait until the right time to heavy attack. This makes heavy attacking for resources awkward because Vrol's Command might proc at the wrong time. When it does proc, only half of the group is then protected. The other half of the group dies to the mechanic. A simple % mitigation and % up time calculation will not capture this.

No doubt, the strength of these sets is hard to balance, but their balancing has be focused on how these utility sets are used, not just on up times and % mitigation. As Major Aegis only applies in dungeons and trials, the Major Aegis sets could be tailored to this content without worrying about balance elsewhere. There is an opportunity for Major Aegis sets to become "rule breakers" that are very powerful in specific situations and fun to use, but to do this they need to be balanced with those situtations in mind.

They made a similar error with the original Vykosa change last patch. From a naive numbers-on-paper standpoint Vykosa was made stronger despite the nerf to its strength because they had substantially buffed its uptime.

But in practical terms, the original Vykosa change made the set worthless because the need for extra damage mitigation in PvE is usually reactive. It doesn't matter how much extra mitigation you get when there isn't a lot of incoming damage, and that extra mitigation is needed only in specific windows. This is in contrast do damage dealing, where it usually doesn't matter whether the damage that you deal is evenly spread out over a period of time or comes in bursts--the only thing that matters at the end is the total damage done over a period of time.

There are of course exceptions to both--situations where constant mitigation is needed and situations where it does matter whether damage done is in bursts or in a steady stream. But in most cases, mitigation is needed in bursts, where uptime percentages are largely irrelevant. As I've stressed earlier, support and damage-dealing are often not symmetric.

It's clear that ZOS sees healing and mitigation as symmetrical counterpoints of damage-dealing. And while this may be largely true when dealing with other players in PvP, this is not how things work in endgame PvE (after all, no enemy in PvP has 276M health), and it doesn't appear like their "standardization" has done a good job of handling these sorts of considerations.

Dagoth_Rac

kylewwefan wrote: »

I saw a thread that explained we don’t really have support roles in this game and a few changes could really fix that. Tank is a role. Healer is a role. Damage Dealer is a role. Support could be a role. Long as people could get over being a buff bit**.

I hadn’t really thought of it this way before, but it makes sense kind of.

In this very thread is a great idea to fix alkosh by having it scale from weapon damage like the DK skill that makes take more flame damage. That would make it fairly worthless on a tank and a decent stamina dps/support set.

That would be a huge change to the game. Ever since release, set bonuses have always been based off gear level and gear quality, never stats. "Make this set act like a skill," is a not a trivial request when sets, by design, have never acted like skills.

ATreeGnome

code65536 wrote: »

TL;DR summary: Reduce Roaring's effect from 12 to 3 people. Increase the effect of Vrol's Command, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense to 12 people.


Introduction: Why is Alkosh a support set?

Roar of Alkosh was intended by ZOS to be a damage-dealer set. But the reality is that this is a set used almost exclusively by tanks, and the only time damage dealers used this set was very early in this set's life (back before players got the idea to use it on tanks) and when hitbox problems prevented Alkosh from hitting the bosses in Sunspire if used from a tank's position.

Question: So, why is Alkosh actually a support set, despite ZOS's clear intent that it be a damage-dealer set?
Answer: Because it is efficient in its effect. Specifically, what I mean here by "efficient" is that because this is a set that debuffs targets, its effect benefits everyone in the group.

In a trials group of 12, you just need 1 person to use Alkosh. That's what I mean by "efficient". Furthermore, because the effect does not stack, it is actually disadvantageous to have too many people wear Alkosh, since the extra effect procs will just be wasted. So even if a damage dealer were to wear Alkosh, it would only make sense for 1 damage dealer (or maaaybe 2) to wear the set--there's little point in having the others wear it.

If you think about it, every popular support set is one that can affect a full group of 12; they're all "efficient". Ebon. Worm. Hircine. Yolnahkriin. Olorime. Alkosh.

Why is Roaring Opportunist the next Alkosh?

Four years later, we have another "Roar" set, this time Roaring Opportunist, which grants Major Slayer to 12 people upon the completion of a heavy attack. As it currently stands, even after the week 2 PTS changes, this is a support set.

1. One person can give Major Slayer to a full trials group of 12.
2. You can't have more than one person wear this set because the cooldown is on the recipient of the buff.
3. In order to get the most out of this set, it's necessary to build specifically for heavy attacks, and for the kinds of players that this set is aimed at (players who run trials), it's one thing to ask them to heavy attack every now and then (which some do anyway for sustain), but it's quite another to ask them to build specifically for heavy attacks. And without a heavy-attack build, a damage dealer is not going to do that much more heavy attack damage than a healer (particularly since it is now commonplace for healers to spec more into spell damage) and will not get significantly more uptime than a healer.

So the reality is that, despite the week 2 changes, Roaring Opportunist is still considered by players to be a support set. The only difference now is that it's a weaker support set, and groups are now considering having healers come on the DK class because of the DK's unique class ability to boost heavy attack damage.

How do you fix Roaring Opportunist?

There's a very simple solution to this problem: Cap the Roaring Opportunist effect to three players. Eliminate/revert the duration scaling from heavy attack damage. And instead of Roaring Opportunist becoming the next Alkosh, it will become the next Master Architect. Roaring Opportunist has the (ahem) opportunity to become a more desirable alternative to Master Architect, particularly for those classes that lack cheap ultimates.

That's it. If you want RO to be a set used by damage-dealers, you MUST eliminate the 12-person effect. As long as it can affect 12, people will look for ways to shoehorn it onto a support. And even if groups do decided to put RO on a damage-dealer, only one damage dealer could use the set. All other RO sets in the group would be wasted. Is that what you really want, ZOS? For a damage-dealer set to be usable by only 1 out of 8 DDs in a group?

Effect efficiency and Major Aegis

Vrol's Command suffers from the opposite problem. This is a set that is designed to be a support set, but supports will never use it. Why? Because it's inefficient. In order to cover the entire group, you need both of your tanks to run it. It's one thing to ask one tank to sacrifice a set for Vrol. But asking both tanks to do this? No, I can't imagine any group accepting that level of sacrifice.

I find it amusingly ironic that ZOS made the mistake of letting Roaring affect 12 people while also making the exact opposite mistake of letting Vrol affect only 6.

Furthermore, this is the same mistake that was made with Inventor's Guard and Automated Defense.

The Major Aegis sets from Halls of Fabrication are automatic decons for everyone. Why? Because they affect only 3 people. In order to cover an entire group, you'll need all four supports running Inventors/Automated. That's completely impractical.

I imagine, back in 2017 when the Halls sets were designed, that someone at ZOS thought, "Well, the Major Slayer sets affect 3 people. So wouldn't it be nice and symmetrical for the Major Aegis sets to also affect 3 people?" The problem with that symmetry in the set design is that, in practice, the roles are not symmetrical. You have 8 DDs, but only 2 healer and 2 tanks. There are a lot more DDs than there are supports.

Also, defensive bonuses really need to go to everyone. If someone doesn't get an offensive bonus, that's fine, they just do a bit less damage, but that's not a big deal. But for defensive bonuses, if someone needs a defensive buff to survive, then not getting it means death. In places where groups need to mitigate a lot of damage, the damage usually affects everyone. Think about the execute phase on Assembly General. Or the laser on Lokkestiiz HM. Major Aegis is never a consideration in those scenarios because we need that buff on everyone, and in order to get it, we would would need to sacrifice four support slots (if using Halls support sets) or two support slots (if using Vrol).

The Galenwe treatment

There is one more trials support set that ZOS had made this mistake with: Galenwe. Before the Update 26 PTS, Galenwe affected only 3 people. It was too inefficient to be used as a support set. But with Update 26, Galenwe can now affect an entire trials group, and suddenly, the set is on the radar for consideration instead of automatic decon fodder. This was a great and necessary change. Now you need to do the same for Vrol, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense. All three of these sets could be interesting and useful in certain situations, if only they were able to affect everyone.

And of course, you need to do the opposite for Roaring Opportunist. Reducing the effect count is the only way to get people to actually use RO on damage dealers instead of on a support or just a single damage dealer. And it would make it a far more balanced set.

Pretty much spot on.

I do think it's also worth noting that, while the target limit on War Machine and Master Architect are a big part of the reason that DPS ran then instead of supports, the proc condition was something that inherently was desirable on some DPS classes (using a cheap ultimate on cooldown) but was completely undesirable on supports, who want to efficiently space out their high cost Warhorns to achieve the maximum major force uptime. Heavy attacks are the opposite of this - undesirable on a DPS but not a big deal on a healer. Include the fact that Jorvuld's guidance will always give healers a 40% advantage on any worthwhile, group wide, major offensive buff set, and it's inevitable that RO would end up on a healer or a trash pile.

I think that it's also inevitable that RO, if it is used at all, will provide far more value to well coordinated, high end groups than to average groups. An organized group will likely have more group buffs with better uptimes. Hitting a 96k heavy attack in a group with good warhorn and colossus rotations and high uptimes on Alkosh, Zen's, and MK will be far easier than hoping things line up in a disorganized group that might be missing buffs to start with. I don't think anyone wants a set that will widen the skill gap even more.

I think it would be best for ZOS to scrap RO as it is and do a magicka version of AY or something until they have a better plan for a support DPS set.

SeaUnicorn

With current iteration RO+Jorvuld gives less benefit than Zen+MK in terms of damage boost for the group (slightly less than 5% as compared to slightly less than 9%). The only up side of such RO setup - it's easier to manage. So It may be an option for newbie healers. But not really an option for optimized groups.

To maximize RO up-time you need a build that includes Master and Maelstrom destros, Mother Sorrow, RO on a DK with molten weapons and alot of CP into staff expert. It will give 8% group DPS boost (with good RNG on crits) - somewhat similar group DPS bonus as compared to Zen/MK. This setup does not leave space for Resto Staff, so healer running RO with such a build will not really be a healer, they can not perform Combat Prayer duties and have limited amount of heals. Not to mention that their class ground HOT has teeny tiny radius and costs insane amount of mag.

Any way you look at it - Zen/MK is more reliable and suitable setup for an off-healer and gives better more reliable group DPS bonus. It is also more fun to play.

At the same time DPS who was to run RO would have to sacrifice a lot of damage with the cheese build that they need to have in order to proc RO. So they will be "taking one for the team".

If ZOS really wants incentives for inclusion of HA build to the optimized trial groups - they should tie higher up-times to actual behavior patterns of HA build, usually such build perform: 1-2 HA per 10-12s rotation, they usually run Lightning staves as channeled HA is much more enjoyable to use, they usually do not do insane amount of damage with HAs. HAs are used as a filler for the downtime in between refreshing the dots, i.e. a replacement for spammable.

Gained group DPS has to be slightly more than loss of DPS when comparing HA build to LA build. So if you were to limit it to n players - adjust the uptimes accordingly.

Ideally RO would not be tied to HA at all. I'm sure noone would complain if RO would mimic Lokkestiz behavior. Lokkestiz is absolutely great in terms of incetivising group play - supports spec into providing more synergies, DPS focuses on taking those. I think it makes alot of sense and gives very nice bonus and uptime.

Kolzki

The proc conditions for War Machine and Master Architect are indeed a strength. You get major slayer for the duration of your ultimate, exactly when it’s most effective. They encourage us to use cheap ultimates on cool down but they’re also very effective for coordinated ultimate dumps. These are things that DDs are already doing and MA and WM reward us for doing them well.

kylewwefan

@John_Falstaff it wouldn’t be a nerf if the buffs were worthwhile. And no amount of buffs is gonna be better than going 1 tank 3 dps in four man content. Sorry.

A trials Damage set should be worn on a trials DPS. If it works better on a tank or a healer; that’s shameful.

Trials sets should be great for the trial they come from. But this isn’t always the case.

Would it be wrong for a couple damage dealers to wear damage group support sets? If the buffs were good enough it would likely be expected.

John_Falstaff

@kylewwefan , don't see anything shameful in using an efficient set where it's most efficient to use it, it's part of what makes ESO more freestyle, and it's great. If tank is able to run set originally designed (poorly) for DD for the benefit of the group, more power to him, that speaks of skill. We're already getting stripped of sets that encourage skill (see Vykosa) and diversity, no need to push it further. As for 'trials sets should be great for trial' - don't know where that strange notion came from. I'm not going to trial to get sets to run that trial again, I want sets to be useful in many more places, that's how game rolls.

And if buff to support sets were enough that running them would outweigh existing selfish sets... then, guess what, everyone would be running them and once again we won't have any diversity. So, no. Pride of a tank in ESO is to be as efficient in both tanking and group support as he can pull off, there's no need to turn ESO into another game with artificial shoehorning tanks into being meat shields and healers only healers and support roles to be buff machines. It's boring, and we already have games like those - we don't need any more like that.

Varana

kylewwefan wrote: »

A trials Damage set should be worn on a trials DPS. If it works better on a tank or a healer; that’s shameful.

Trials sets should be great for the trial they come from. But this isn’t always the case.

I find both these statements really strange.

First, a set is a set. Nothing more. Whether it's a tank, support, dps, or healing set, is determined by how the players use it. ZOS may have intended them in one way - but there's no reason why they would need to enforce that intention when players find out different uses of a set. The game is for the players, not for ZOS.
As such, Alkosh doesn't need a "fix". It's a great set. Do players use it the way it was intended? Only partially. But they have found a way to use that set to its best potential. Isn't that something that should be encouraged?

And second, that defeats the entire notion of farming for a set.
"Let's run Sunspire without any of the sets that drop from there. Once we've collected all the sets that help us beat Sunspire, we should run Sunspire again... why exactly?"

Draxys

ZOS should pay you as a consultant for these forum posts

YandereGirlfriend

For the love of Talos, can we not just get a simple selfish magDPS set so that we can replace the positively ancient Mother's Sorrow in our builds?!

Vaoh

ATreeGnome wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

TL;DR summary: Reduce Roaring's effect from 12 to 3 people. Increase the effect of Vrol's Command, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense to 12 people.


Introduction: Why is Alkosh a support set?

Roar of Alkosh was intended by ZOS to be a damage-dealer set. But the reality is that this is a set used almost exclusively by tanks, and the only time damage dealers used this set was very early in this set's life (back before players got the idea to use it on tanks) and when hitbox problems prevented Alkosh from hitting the bosses in Sunspire if used from a tank's position.

Question: So, why is Alkosh actually a support set, despite ZOS's clear intent that it be a damage-dealer set?
Answer: Because it is efficient in its effect. Specifically, what I mean here by "efficient" is that because this is a set that debuffs targets, its effect benefits everyone in the group.

In a trials group of 12, you just need 1 person to use Alkosh. That's what I mean by "efficient". Furthermore, because the effect does not stack, it is actually disadvantageous to have too many people wear Alkosh, since the extra effect procs will just be wasted. So even if a damage dealer were to wear Alkosh, it would only make sense for 1 damage dealer (or maaaybe 2) to wear the set--there's little point in having the others wear it.

If you think about it, every popular support set is one that can affect a full group of 12; they're all "efficient". Ebon. Worm. Hircine. Yolnahkriin. Olorime. Alkosh.

Why is Roaring Opportunist the next Alkosh?

Four years later, we have another "Roar" set, this time Roaring Opportunist, which grants Major Slayer to 12 people upon the completion of a heavy attack. As it currently stands, even after the week 2 PTS changes, this is a support set.

1. One person can give Major Slayer to a full trials group of 12.
2. You can't have more than one person wear this set because the cooldown is on the recipient of the buff.
3. In order to get the most out of this set, it's necessary to build specifically for heavy attacks, and for the kinds of players that this set is aimed at (players who run trials), it's one thing to ask them to heavy attack every now and then (which some do anyway for sustain), but it's quite another to ask them to build specifically for heavy attacks. And without a heavy-attack build, a damage dealer is not going to do that much more heavy attack damage than a healer (particularly since it is now commonplace for healers to spec more into spell damage) and will not get significantly more uptime than a healer.

So the reality is that, despite the week 2 changes, Roaring Opportunist is still considered by players to be a support set. The only difference now is that it's a weaker support set, and groups are now considering having healers come on the DK class because of the DK's unique class ability to boost heavy attack damage.

How do you fix Roaring Opportunist?

There's a very simple solution to this problem: Cap the Roaring Opportunist effect to three players. Eliminate/revert the duration scaling from heavy attack damage. And instead of Roaring Opportunist becoming the next Alkosh, it will become the next Master Architect. Roaring Opportunist has the (ahem) opportunity to become a more desirable alternative to Master Architect, particularly for those classes that lack cheap ultimates.

That's it. If you want RO to be a set used by damage-dealers, you MUST eliminate the 12-person effect. As long as it can affect 12, people will look for ways to shoehorn it onto a support. And even if groups do decided to put RO on a damage-dealer, only one damage dealer could use the set. All other RO sets in the group would be wasted. Is that what you really want, ZOS? For a damage-dealer set to be usable by only 1 out of 8 DDs in a group?

Effect efficiency and Major Aegis

Vrol's Command suffers from the opposite problem. This is a set that is designed to be a support set, but supports will never use it. Why? Because it's inefficient. In order to cover the entire group, you need both of your tanks to run it. It's one thing to ask one tank to sacrifice a set for Vrol. But asking both tanks to do this? No, I can't imagine any group accepting that level of sacrifice.

I find it amusingly ironic that ZOS made the mistake of letting Roaring affect 12 people while also making the exact opposite mistake of letting Vrol affect only 6.

Furthermore, this is the same mistake that was made with Inventor's Guard and Automated Defense.

The Major Aegis sets from Halls of Fabrication are automatic decons for everyone. Why? Because they affect only 3 people. In order to cover an entire group, you'll need all four supports running Inventors/Automated. That's completely impractical.

I imagine, back in 2017 when the Halls sets were designed, that someone at ZOS thought, "Well, the Major Slayer sets affect 3 people. So wouldn't it be nice and symmetrical for the Major Aegis sets to also affect 3 people?" The problem with that symmetry in the set design is that, in practice, the roles are not symmetrical. You have 8 DDs, but only 2 healer and 2 tanks. There are a lot more DDs than there are supports.

Also, defensive bonuses really need to go to everyone. If someone doesn't get an offensive bonus, that's fine, they just do a bit less damage, but that's not a big deal. But for defensive bonuses, if someone needs a defensive buff to survive, then not getting it means death. In places where groups need to mitigate a lot of damage, the damage usually affects everyone. Think about the execute phase on Assembly General. Or the laser on Lokkestiiz HM. Major Aegis is never a consideration in those scenarios because we need that buff on everyone, and in order to get it, we would would need to sacrifice four support slots (if using Halls support sets) or two support slots (if using Vrol).

The Galenwe treatment

There is one more trials support set that ZOS had made this mistake with: Galenwe. Before the Update 26 PTS, Galenwe affected only 3 people. It was too inefficient to be used as a support set. But with Update 26, Galenwe can now affect an entire trials group, and suddenly, the set is on the radar for consideration instead of automatic decon fodder. This was a great and necessary change. Now you need to do the same for Vrol, Inventor's Guard, and Automated Defense. All three of these sets could be interesting and useful in certain situations, if only they were able to affect everyone.

And of course, you need to do the opposite for Roaring Opportunist. Reducing the effect count is the only way to get people to actually use RO on damage dealers instead of on a support or just a single damage dealer. And it would make it a far more balanced set.

Pretty much spot on.

I do think it's also worth noting that, while the target limit on War Machine and Master Architect are a big part of the reason that DPS ran then instead of supports, the proc condition was something that inherently was desirable on some DPS classes (using a cheap ultimate on cooldown) but was completely undesirable on supports, who want to efficiently space out their high cost Warhorns to achieve the maximum major force uptime. Heavy attacks are the opposite of this - undesirable on a DPS but not a big deal on a healer. Include the fact that Jorvuld's guidance will always give healers a 40% advantage on any worthwhile, group wide, major offensive buff set, and it's inevitable that RO would end up on a healer or a trash pile.

I think that it's also inevitable that RO, if it is used at all, will provide far more value to well coordinated, high end groups than to average groups. An organized group will likely have more group buffs with better uptimes. Hitting a 96k heavy attack in a group with good warhorn and colossus rotations and high uptimes on Alkosh, Zen's, and MK will be far easier than hoping things line up in a disorganized group that might be missing buffs to start with. I don't think anyone wants a set that will widen the skill gap even more.

I think it would be best for ZOS to scrap RO as it is and do a magicka version of AY or something until they have a better plan for a support DPS set.

A Magicka Tzogvin would also be welcome

kylewwefan

Varana wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

A trials Damage set should be worn on a trials DPS. If it works better on a tank or a healer; that’s shameful.

Trials sets should be great for the trial they come from. But this isn’t always the case.

I find both these statements really strange.

First, a set is a set. Nothing more. Whether it's a tank, support, dps, or healing set, is determined by how the players use it. ZOS may have intended them in one way - but there's no reason why they would need to enforce that intention when players find out different uses of a set. The game is for the players, not for ZOS.
As such, Alkosh doesn't need a "fix". It's a great set. Do players use it the way it was intended? Only partially. But they have found a way to use that set to its best potential. Isn't that something that should be encouraged?

And second, that defeats the entire notion of farming for a set.
"Let's run Sunspire without any of the sets that drop from there. Once we've collected all the sets that help us beat Sunspire, we should run Sunspire again... why exactly?"

Alkosh is a Robust set with Minor Slayer as a 3 piece bonus. Everything a tank needs. Not. The fact that tanks would use this because nothing better exist in tanking set is at least interesting.

Siroria and Relequen are Hilariously Awful for cloudrest, where they come from; and only situationally good for certain fights is noteworthy. Are any of the Asylum Santorum sets good? Perhaps watching sonic the hedgehog fly out and maybe roll into someone provides little joy, but outside of role playing they’re just bad.

Trial tanking sets up until sunspire have been so mediocre as to seldomly see use anywhere.

Don’t be silly about farming sets. Do it on normal like everyone else. Then do it again. Because you like it.

Code is usually spot on, but I think calling for a nerf on what could be the next great have to get set is wrong. If it only affects 3 people, we end up with another mediocre set. At 6 players, it becomes ok. Affecting The whole group for major slayer? That’s something we need to get. Possibly something making it worth buying Greymoor.

The trials tanking sets need a big buff to be worth using. I’ll agree with him on that. Cause they’re all lame. And they are definitely tanking sets. None of this “a set is a set” nonsense.

FakeFox

While you bring up a few really interesting points I can certainly agree with, I don't think reducing the number of affected players is to only way of making it viable for damage dealers. I think the major problem is that the set currently doesn't benefit from being worn by a damage dealer, while potentially benefiting from being worn by a healer, due to inefficient build requirements and a scaling with Jorvuld's Guidance. Since we already have more then eight viable support sets in most situations, two for each of the four tanks and healers, we need to sacrifice something in order to use roaring opportunist. However, given how strong the set is for a group and how weak for the wearer it is a pretty easy choice. If RO would lose it's scaling with support roles and instead offer something interesting to a DD wearing it, it would in my opinion be enough to make this set viable for both support roles and damage dealers.

John_Falstaff

@kylewwefan , first, that's precisely the point of freedom in ESO. People could make Alkosh work well on a tank? Great, more power to them. It's not a question of what tank needs, it's a question of what -group- needs, because tank is a support role, he should cater to his group. Sure, give the set that'll be stronger than Alkosh on a tank, and tank-oriented too, and tanks will switch to it, but nerfing everything until DDs start running Alkosh is just not an option.

Second, set is not obliged to be universal. Siroria is a great set for stacked fights, and it's used with great success on 1st and 4th bosses in vHoF (and until next patch, it's even backbarred on mDK, with front being - surprise, about usefulness of vAS drops - perfected Asylum inferno). So, see, vAS drops are useful too (and I'm speaking of actual weapon sets), inferno was useful until this patch, S&B is used in a lot of dungeon builds (with backbarred Olorime), resto is favored by many healers in more content than just vAS.

I don't mind getting a tanking set better than Alkosh, but proposal of beating current sets into the ground until they're only viable on DDs leads absolutely nowhere. It's a net loss for the game.