Impen still worth it?

SodanTok

Makes no sense for it to be 68, Resistant CP star cant be divided by number 68 but can be divided by number 66 resulting in 25% crit damage reduction and all CP stars reach even number at 100 last time I checked.

Even Sturdy Warhorn gives 15% crit reduction if you divide it by 66 exactly same value as Aggresive gives crit damage.... occam razor ppl.

lucky_Sage

I realized the base inpen wasn’t working when I got destroyed testing a build with other traits and saw didn’t have any inpen outside and f cp

Langeston

SodanTok wrote: »

Makes no sense for it to be 68, Resistant CP star cant be divided by number 68 but can be divided by number 66 resulting in 25% crit damage reduction and all CP stars reach even number at 100 last time I checked.

Even Sturdy Warhorn gives 15% crit reduction if you divide it by 66 exactly same value as Aggresive gives crit damage.... occam razor ppl.

OK. I'll still go with the word of the guy that actually tested it though. It's not as if ZOS is known for being particularly logical.

Galarthor

Dracane wrote: »

A full set of impenetrable still grants 18% crit damage reduction. Making it still, by far, the very best trait and no other trait comes remotely close to this.

I had hoped impenetrable would be reduced enough to actually open up choices. But I would be a fool to trade 18% crit resistence for 1k magicka or so.

That's not entirely true. 25% cost reduction on dodge roll and sprint or 20% cost reduction on blocking can be worth far more to stamina builds. Unfortunately, magicka builds still don't really have a choice since ZOS discriminates against magicka when it comes to armor traits and CP.

Mortiis13

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

A full set of impenetrable still grants 18% crit damage reduction. Making it still, by far, the very best trait and no other trait comes remotely close to this.

I had hoped impenetrable would be reduced enough to actually open up choices. But I would be a fool to trade 18% crit resistence for 1k magicka or so.

That's not entirely true. 25% cost reduction on dodge roll and sprint or 20% cost reduction on blocking can be worth far more to stamina builds. Unfortunately, magicka builds still don't really have a choice since ZOS discriminates against magicka when it comes to armor traits and CP.

Would agree with that, impen is only superior against critbuilds and for facetanking.
against low crit builds its value is decreased drastically and block or dodgeroll cost reduction would be more of a value.

For light armor users there should be a trait to increase shield duration( + 0.5 sec on golden) or size increase. I don't see any alternative then impen here

I never block (beside froststaff builds) or dodgeroll with my magsorc or magblade cause I need all stam for breakfree, so I have to sacrifice 1 slot for a active defense skill to mitigate bursts that I have on stam chars without slotting a skill or to use a specific weapon (block and dodgeroll).

Galarthor

Mortiis13 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

A full set of impenetrable still grants 18% crit damage reduction. Making it still, by far, the very best trait and no other trait comes remotely close to this.

I had hoped impenetrable would be reduced enough to actually open up choices. But I would be a fool to trade 18% crit resistence for 1k magicka or so.

That's not entirely true. 25% cost reduction on dodge roll and sprint or 20% cost reduction on blocking can be worth far more to stamina builds. Unfortunately, magicka builds still don't really have a choice since ZOS discriminates against magicka when it comes to armor traits and CP.

Would agree with that, impen is only superior against critbuilds and for facetanking.
against low crit builds its value is decreased drastically and block or dodgeroll cost reduction would be more of a value.

For light armor users there should be a trait to increase shield duration( + 0.5 sec on golden) or size increase. I don't see any alternative then impen here

I never block (beside froststaff builds) or dodgeroll with my magsorc or magblade cause I need all stam for breakfree, so I have to sacrifice 1 slot for a active defense skill to mitigate bursts that I have on stam chars without slotting a skill or to use a specific weapon (block and dodgeroll).

Well, you would need traits that reduce the cost of magicka shields, heals and magicka mobility (incl. cloak). That would be the closest equivalent to these stamina traits.

Maulkin

Guys, guys, guys...What's the point of Impen when Band of Malacath is in the game?

Normally (on Live) a well spec'ed CP PvP build would have 1800 crit resist from 7xImpen and another 1200 from CP tree to be at around ~3000 crit resits meaning they only took ~6% extra crit damage. Maybe 16% if the class was Templar or NB. 24% if they were Templar/NB with minor Force.

Now with Malacath they will deal a flat 25% extra damage with everything but they can't crit. If that 25% is also applied to things that couldn't be crit before anyway (like blocked damage or proc sets) then that ring alone next patch will be better damage than having 100% crit chance today on live. And in a stroke it renders all your target's armor traits useless. Why would you slot Impen when 1 piece of opponent armour, that is completely BiS anyway, will negate it?

I don't even want to go into no-CP and what 25% extra damage with 10% more reduced healing will do to that content. People will be dying faster than an FPS game. BGs will be completely rekted. Everyone completely bypassing resistances with Stuhn and crit resists with Malacath to be hitting for insane amounts of damage no healing will ever help you recover from.

Dracane

Maulkin wrote: »

Guys, guys, guys...What's the point of Impen when Band of Malacath is in the game?

Normally (on Live) a well spec'ed CP PvP build would have 1800 crit resist from 7xImpen and another 1200 from CP tree to be at around ~3000 crit resits meaning they only took ~6% extra crit damage. Maybe 16% if the class was Templar or NB. 24% if they were Templar/NB with minor Force.

Now with Malacath they will deal a flat 25% extra damage with everything but they can't crit. If that 25% is also applied to things that couldn't be crit before anyway (like blocked damage or proc sets) then that ring alone next patch will be better damage than having 100% crit chance today on live. And in a stroke it renders all your target's armor traits useless. Why would you slot Impen when 1 piece of opponent armour, that is completely BiS anyway, will negate it?

I don't even want to go into no-CP and what 25% extra damage with 10% more reduced healing will do to that content. People will be dying faster than an FPS game. BGs will be completely rekted. Everyone completely bypassing resistances with Stuhn and crit resists with Malacath to be hitting for insane amounts of damage no healing will ever help you recover from.

I prefer people killing themselves fast and being killed fast in return than what we have right now.
Yet it seems Malacath's Ring needs a few more restrictions to actually make it a choice and not a necessity.

Cinbri

Maulkin wrote: »

Guys, guys, guys...What's the point of Impen when Band of Malacath is in the game?

Normally (on Live) a well spec'ed CP PvP build would have 1800 crit resist from 7xImpen and another 1200 from CP tree to be at around ~3000 crit resits meaning they only took ~6% extra crit damage. Maybe 16% if the class was Templar or NB. 24% if they were Templar/NB with minor Force.

Now with Malacath they will deal a flat 25% extra damage with everything but they can't crit. If that 25% is also applied to things that couldn't be crit before anyway (like blocked damage or proc sets) then that ring alone next patch will be better damage than having 100% crit chance today on live. And in a stroke it renders all your target's armor traits useless. Why would you slot Impen when 1 piece of opponent armour, that is completely BiS anyway, will negate it?

I don't even want to go into no-CP and what 25% extra damage with 10% more reduced healing will do to that content. People will be dying faster than an FPS game. BGs will be completely rekted. Everyone completely bypassing resistances with Stuhn and crit resists with Malacath to be hitting for insane amounts of damage no healing will ever help you recover from.

Given how hard it to actually get and what type of people will try to get it - it almost guarantee we wont see any PvPer with Malacath Ring till Q3 where balance will switch once again.

Maulkin

Dracane wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Guys, guys, guys...What's the point of Impen when Band of Malacath is in the game?

Normally (on Live) a well spec'ed CP PvP build would have 1800 crit resist from 7xImpen and another 1200 from CP tree to be at around ~3000 crit resits meaning they only took ~6% extra crit damage. Maybe 16% if the class was Templar or NB. 24% if they were Templar/NB with minor Force.

Now with Malacath they will deal a flat 25% extra damage with everything but they can't crit. If that 25% is also applied to things that couldn't be crit before anyway (like blocked damage or proc sets) then that ring alone next patch will be better damage than having 100% crit chance today on live. And in a stroke it renders all your target's armor traits useless. Why would you slot Impen when 1 piece of opponent armour, that is completely BiS anyway, will negate it?

I don't even want to go into no-CP and what 25% extra damage with 10% more reduced healing will do to that content. People will be dying faster than an FPS game. BGs will be completely rekted. Everyone completely bypassing resistances with Stuhn and crit resists with Malacath to be hitting for insane amounts of damage no healing will ever help you recover from.

I prefer people killing themselves fast and being killed fast in return than what we have right now.
Yet it seems Malacath's Ring needs a few more restrictions to actually make it a choice and not a necessity.

The bolded part, I think it depends on the context. In no-cp BGs people already die fast enough as is, high TTK is not really problem there. People play glass cannon builds there to great effect. People who build to survive in there, people who build to be literal tanks, they have no damage which makes it balanced. No-cp small scale does not suffer from the problem you mention.

In my eyes the problem of high damage tanks that can survive any glass cannon (and more than one) easily but dish out huge damage in return, is a problem mostly of CP PvP. And more apparent on specific classes that have very high passive dmg mitigation, which incidentally are the 2 non-vanilla classes, so it's a problem ZOS introduced willingly in part.

Nerfing the effectiveness of Impen, is in my opinion, neither here nor there. The real question is what will the impact of the aggregated changes of the new chapter be on PvP? I mean the new Impen, the new crafted/dropped sets, the new Mythic items, the Battle Spirit change... all together. Because looking at them in isolation I believe tells you nothing. Impen still seems BiS until you take Malacath's Band into account, for example.

My prediction is that CP PvP will be better, faster with more deaths but perhaps lack of build diversity as everyone goes for full pen and damage. Just a complete swing of the pendulum from where it is now. And as for no-CP PvP, where people already build for damage, that will be completely borked. They have these 2 PvP modes and they can't balance between them.

relentless_turnip

Well on the PTS I currently am wearing 4 well fitted and 3 impen. I have 49% crit resist and my dodge roll costs less than 2k. I am pretty happy with that. I have 40% crit resist on live with only 2 well fitted and 5 impen. I think it's a good change so far, maybe a little excessive.

The funny thing is most people won't know this has changed and will be running 60%+ crit resist without even knowing it.

Also consider the fact crit damage hasn't received a buff this patch via sets or skills. A lot of people may be running malacalth though and crit resist won't help you. Active defense will be more important... Though perma block builds worry me a bit.

I have also tried malacalth for anyone interested. I didn't think it was good if I'm honest...

paulsimonps

@MurderMostFoul

Not really played since I last updated that thread but unless its changed the way I got the numbers was simply to test different percentages vs resistance value, pretty easy really. But basically most things in the thread should be up to date unless something major happened while I was away in terms of mechanics at least.

MurderMostFoul

@paulsimonps

Thanks for the answer! I've always appreciated your contributions to the discussions here. Too bad you're not playing much these days.

I figured you arrived at your numbers empirically. And ZOS hasn't said there have been changes to impen calculations. So I'll continue to go with 68 impen = 1% crit damage reduction.

It does make you scratch your head about Warhorn though.

Foto1

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Well on the PTS I currently am wearing 4 well fitted and 3 impen. I have 49% crit resist and my dodge roll costs less than 2k. I am pretty happy with that. I have 40% crit resist on live with only 2 well fitted and 5 impen. I think it's a good change so far, maybe a little excessive.

The funny thing is most people won't know this has changed and will be running 60%+ crit resist without even knowing it.

Also consider the fact crit damage hasn't received a buff this patch via sets or skills. A lot of people may be running malacalth though and crit resist won't help you. Active defense will be more important... Though perma block builds worry me a bit.

I have also tried malacalth for anyone interested. I didn't think it was good if I'm honest...

how did you get 49%? Base impen 1350 + 7 impen 1204 /68 = 37%
On live - 26%

Langeston

Foto1 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Well on the PTS I currently am wearing 4 well fitted and 3 impen. I have 49% crit resist and my dodge roll costs less than 2k. I am pretty happy with that. I have 40% crit resist on live with only 2 well fitted and 5 impen. I think it's a good change so far, maybe a little excessive.

The funny thing is most people won't know this has changed and will be running 60%+ crit resist without even knowing it.

Also consider the fact crit damage hasn't received a buff this patch via sets or skills. A lot of people may be running malacalth though and crit resist won't help you. Active defense will be more important... Though perma block builds worry me a bit.

I have also tried malacalth for anyone interested. I didn't think it was good if I'm honest...

how did you get 49%? Base impen 1350 + 7 impen 1204 /68 = 37%
On live - 26%

He's probably getting 816 from CP.

silver1surfer69

leepalmer95 wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

A full set of impenetrable still grants 18% crit damage reduction. Making it still, by far, the very best trait and no other trait comes remotely close to this.

I had hoped impenetrable would be reduced enough to actually open up choices. But I would be a fool to trade 18% crit resistence for 1k magicka or so.

1x imp 258
7x imp 1806

68 imp =1% crit dmg reduction
thus

1806/68=26,5% crit red

Also 3300 crit res is 50% crit dmg reduction so your number is wrong.

no 3400 must be the nr. 68 is 1%. dont confuse it with resistance which is 662 (so 33310 is 50% ress).

Raisin

[snip]

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

[edited to remove quoted content]

HankTwo

Raisin wrote: »

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

No CP or CP?

Generally:
- 2-4 pieces of impen are still a good idea (3 pieces of impen now + new base crit resistance = 7 pieces of impen before the patch)
- Well fitted can be an extremely good trait, the more your defensive playstyle revolves around dodge rolling the more you want of it
- Sturdy is good for block builds, but imo a weaker trait than well fitted overall
- Infused on big armor pieces (head, legs, chest) is a good trait.
- Reinforced on a heavy chest is a good pick
- Divines if you have free trait slots and don't know what to do with them

If you want a trait setup with mostly passive defense (as opposed to well fitted or sturdy) you can go for something like
- 1 reinforced if you have a heavy chest + 2 infused on head and legs + 4 impen

Raisin

HankTwo wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

No CP or CP?

Generally:
- 2-4 pieces of impen are still a good idea (3 pieces of impen now + new base crit resistance = 7 pieces of impen before the patch)
- Well fitted can be an extremely good trait, the more your defensive playstyle revolves around dodge rolling the more you want of it
- Sturdy is good for block builds, but imo a weaker trait than well fitted overall
- Infused on big armor pieces (head, legs, chest) is a good trait.
- Reinforced on a heavy chest is a good pick
- Divines if you have free trait slots and don't know what to do with them

If you want a trait setup with mostly passive defense (as opposed to well fitted or sturdy) you can go for something like
- 1 reinforced if you have a heavy chest + 2 infused on head and legs + 4 impen

Ty! Definitely going for No-CP. In the end my 'joy' in PVP comes from at least trying to kill something before I die. I'd rather run into the action and have a grand time getting wrecked than stay safe in the background. So I'm not too worried about being defensive, but I know rationally I want to at least hit a certain minimum, y'know?
Looks like I'll either throw in some well-fitted and try to remember to dodge more, or just go for Infused and enjoy some extra resources. Appreciate the input!

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings everyone!

We've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting and inappropriate content. We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.

Dracane

HankTwo wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

thatESOdude wrote: »

Seeing someone talking about PvP who literally zergs with imperial physique in IC and even still manages to be easy Telvar when her simp is not there to get rekt for her whiles she's running away is beyond funny. Especially someone that we know from credible resources that she has a weird... "fetish" with daedric princes... Yikes!

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

No CP or CP?

Generally:
- 2-4 pieces of impen are still a good idea (3 pieces of impen now + new base crit resistance = 7 pieces of impen before the patch)
- Well fitted can be an extremely good trait, the more your defensive playstyle revolves around dodge rolling the more you want of it
- Sturdy is good for block builds, but imo a weaker trait than well fitted overall
- Infused on big armor pieces (head, legs, chest) is a good trait.
- Reinforced on a heavy chest is a good pick
- Divines if you have free trait slots and don't know what to do with them

If you want a trait setup with mostly passive defense (as opposed to well fitted or sturdy) you can go for something like
- 1 reinforced if you have a heavy chest + 2 infused on head and legs + 4 impen

I grow very restless over this entire trait debate. I want to change something and move away from impenetrable, just to find that it's still the very best trait mathematically.

In no cp with all modifiers like magelight and undaunted applied, 3 pieces infused give me 607 magicka. Or 57 spell damage or 120 conjured ward strenght more. Would you really trade 7,8% less damage taken from crits, which the all present nightblade can provoce guaranteed for a meager 57 spell damage? I do not think at all that this is a wise decision. Impen is way way too strong still or I should say; all traits besides well fitted are severly underpowered.

An entire set of infused and divines with the mage would give me 1300 magicka at the cost of 18% crit resistence. Even a magicka harlot like me must admit that this is too unintelligent to do.

MincVinyl

In general the go to is going to be infused on head/chest/legs with impen on small pieces unless you get other sources of crit resist from set bonuses.

Reinforced/nirn is still inefficient compared to the infused, even on heavy chest piece.

invig/training is a meme, tbh training could have been a combined xp/ap/gold gained bonus.

well fitted/sturdy can have arguments depending on the build, generally well fitted on heavy/light can do alot stam wise. On medium however the passives and cp already cut roll by alot. Too much rolling makes you lose GCDs

Divines can be argued with steed mundus, but health recov is not as worth it compared to the hps gained from WD/SD. In this case it would be comparing how much you want the 10-15% speed bonus instead of the WD. Either way I believe the stats gained from infused tri glyphs 5/1/1 will net more than what divines gives.

HankTwo

Dracane wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

thatESOdude wrote: »

Seeing someone talking about PvP who literally zergs with imperial physique in IC and even still manages to be easy Telvar when her simp is not there to get rekt for her whiles she's running away is beyond funny. Especially someone that we know from credible resources that she has a weird... "fetish" with daedric princes... Yikes!

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

No CP or CP?

Generally:
- 2-4 pieces of impen are still a good idea (3 pieces of impen now + new base crit resistance = 7 pieces of impen before the patch)
- Well fitted can be an extremely good trait, the more your defensive playstyle revolves around dodge rolling the more you want of it
- Sturdy is good for block builds, but imo a weaker trait than well fitted overall
- Infused on big armor pieces (head, legs, chest) is a good trait.
- Reinforced on a heavy chest is a good pick
- Divines if you have free trait slots and don't know what to do with them

If you want a trait setup with mostly passive defense (as opposed to well fitted or sturdy) you can go for something like
- 1 reinforced if you have a heavy chest + 2 infused on head and legs + 4 impen

I grow very restless over this entire trait debate. I want to change something and move away from impenetrable, just to find that it's still the very best trait mathematically.

In no cp with all modifiers like magelight and undaunted applied, 3 pieces infused give me 607 magicka. Or 57 spell damage or 120 conjured ward strenght more. Would you really trade 7,8% less damage taken from crits, which the all present nightblade can provoce guaranteed for a meager 57 spell damage? I do not think at all that this is a wise decision. Impen is way way too strong still or I should say; all traits besides well fitted are severly underpowered.

An entire set of infused and divines with the mage would give me 1300 magicka at the cost of 18% crit resistence. Even a magicka harlot like me must admit that this is too unintelligent to do.

Yes, armor trait balance is still all over the place with impen and well fitted having the most bang for the buck on paper. However, the more people play malacaths band and/or proc sets, the more worthless impen becomes. Imo, stat density on infused triune big piece and reinforced heavy chest is pretty decent. I don't really think divines is worth it, though.

rabidmyers

im running 4 impen with reinforced heavy chest and 2 well fitted

perfect for me honestly cuz i got atleast 2k+ in no cp and 3114 in cp

StarOfElyon

Raisin wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I don't know anything about PVP but if you don't have a thing for ANY of the princes, you're doing something wrong.

That said, I'm getting ready to throw myself into MYM and was hoping this thread would provide me with some clearer insight, rather than theory crafting that's beyond me. Should I just stick to full impen to be safe, or is it now better to run one or two other traits? Should I just bank on everybody and their mother running Malacaths Band anyway?

No CP or CP?

Generally:
- 2-4 pieces of impen are still a good idea (3 pieces of impen now + new base crit resistance = 7 pieces of impen before the patch)
- Well fitted can be an extremely good trait, the more your defensive playstyle revolves around dodge rolling the more you want of it
- Sturdy is good for block builds, but imo a weaker trait than well fitted overall
- Infused on big armor pieces (head, legs, chest) is a good trait.
- Reinforced on a heavy chest is a good pick
- Divines if you have free trait slots and don't know what to do with them

If you want a trait setup with mostly passive defense (as opposed to well fitted or sturdy) you can go for something like
- 1 reinforced if you have a heavy chest + 2 infused on head and legs + 4 impen

Ty! Definitely going for No-CP. In the end my 'joy' in PVP comes from at least trying to kill something before I die. I'd rather run into the action and have a grand time getting wrecked than stay safe in the background. So I'm not too worried about being defensive, but I know rationally I want to at least hit a certain minimum, y'know?
Looks like I'll either throw in some well-fitted and try to remember to dodge more, or just go for Infused and enjoy some extra resources. Appreciate the input!

This is how I play xD

Xvorg

MincVinyl wrote: »

In general the go to is going to be infused on head/chest/legs with impen on small pieces unless you get other sources of crit resist from set bonuses.

Reinforced/nirn is still inefficient compared to the infused, even on heavy chest piece.

invig/training is a meme, tbh training could have been a combined xp/ap/gold gained bonus.

well fitted/sturdy can have arguments depending on the build, generally well fitted on heavy/light can do alot stam wise. On medium however the passives and cp already cut roll by alot. Too much rolling makes you lose GCDs

Divines can be argued with steed mundus, but health recov is not as worth it compared to the hps gained from WD/SD. In this case it would be comparing how much you want the 10-15% speed bonus instead of the WD. Either way I believe the stats gained from infused tri glyphs 5/1/1 will net more than what divines gives.

training is hands down the best trait for levelling, not only from 1 to CPs, but on skill lines not used before.

Just slot a skill from each desired skill line, even if you don't use them and you will get decent xp. Giving it an extra effect would make it too OP. It is the best source of XP

Crom_CCCXVI

I ran 194% Crit damage tonight...

most people mitigated between 30-50% of it, one guy did mitigate all of it, and quite a few people I hit for almost double. I use Force Pulse and compare the numbers (I am aware of the deviations, Vampires, Nord,Status Effects) but it still serves the purpose.

I like the change, it adds diversity to DPS planning.... I could come in there with the Malacath band and just lay base damage, or I can crit the hell out of anyone without at least 3000 impen. I don't see it as that big of deal, but then again most people don't understand damage anyway. I rarely dare have this conversation because people start talking about caps, and over-penetrating and all kinds of myths