Why the huge bash nerf?

Alucardo

Vahrokh wrote: »

Weaving is a crutch as is. Forced in game when the same developers who declared is as a bug, could not fix it, so they declared it a feature.

Bash weaving is an additional bad mechanic added on top of what used to be a bug.

Sure, people who were too lazy and wanted all their damage to come from a single button push would say that. People who understood you needed to put more in to get more out included bash weaving into their rotation.
Still, you never needed to actually do it, and those who did obviously burnt through way more resources and had a stricter rotation, so in essence it was fairly balanced.

Just golded out my jolting set. Thanks for making a really niche set into a garbage fire once again.

SidraWillowsky

Alucardo wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Weaving is a crutch as is. Forced in game when the same developers who declared is as a bug, could not fix it, so they declared it a feature.

Bash weaving is an additional bad mechanic added on top of what used to be a bug.

Sure, people who were too lazy and wanted all their damage to come from a single button push would say that. People who understood you needed to put more in to get more out included bash weaving into their rotation.
Still, you never needed to actually do it, and those who did obviously burnt through way more resources and had a stricter rotation, so in essence it was fairly balanced.

Just golded out my jolting set. Thanks for making a really niche set into a garbage fire once again.

I don't agree with the post you're responding to, but...

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Bash weaving took skill, required you to manage another resource pool, and added a whopping 2k DPS. ZOS is nerfing it because people whine about anything remotely difficult in this game. It’s rather pathetic at this point.

Alucardo

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Weaving is a crutch as is. Forced in game when the same developers who declared is as a bug, could not fix it, so they declared it a feature.

Bash weaving is an additional bad mechanic added on top of what used to be a bug.

Sure, people who were too lazy and wanted all their damage to come from a single button push would say that. People who understood you needed to put more in to get more out included bash weaving into their rotation.
Still, you never needed to actually do it, and those who did obviously burnt through way more resources and had a stricter rotation, so in essence it was fairly balanced.

Just golded out my jolting set. Thanks for making a really niche set into a garbage fire once again.

I don't agree with the post you're responding to, but...

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I haven't, no. People who play this game on a controller have my utmost respect. Heh. Though as I said, bash weaving has always been completely optional. For quite a while I played without it and still did just fine.

DreadDaedroth

Thanks for slowing again my main PvE tank.

Nyladreas

Guess a dev died to too many people bash canceling in PvP. Idk about others but my Stamblade was heavily abusing bash cancel and it made killing everyone a whole LOT easier.

Jaimeh

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I play exclusively with a PS4 controller, and although I will agree it is frustrating to bash weave with it (as are a lot of things with a controller), it's perfectly doable. On the characters I bash weave, I change the 2-combo button to a single button. It still not very convenient, but it's definitely possible.

D3N7157

The top 3% of players that still have been bashcancelling executioners seem to have been a problem again clearly. I love this game really

ZarkingFrued

Bad choice

Fur_like_snow

If the game had more skills worth interrupting I could see the desire for change but just another spread sheet ZeniMax nerf.

SidraWillowsky

Alucardo wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Weaving is a crutch as is. Forced in game when the same developers who declared is as a bug, could not fix it, so they declared it a feature.

Bash weaving is an additional bad mechanic added on top of what used to be a bug.

Sure, people who were too lazy and wanted all their damage to come from a single button push would say that. People who understood you needed to put more in to get more out included bash weaving into their rotation.
Still, you never needed to actually do it, and those who did obviously burnt through way more resources and had a stricter rotation, so in essence it was fairly balanced.

Just golded out my jolting set. Thanks for making a really niche set into a garbage fire once again.

I don't agree with the post you're responding to, but...

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I haven't, no. People who play this game on a controller have my utmost respect. Heh. Though as I said, bash weaving has always been completely optional. For quite a while I played without it and still did just fine.

Fair

I'm a min/maxer and yeah, it's totally optional but it makes me a little bit crazy that I can't do it well on a controller nonetheless because I like to squeeze out every bit of DPS. But you're right; it's quite minimal in the end.

SidraWillowsky

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I play exclusively with a PS4 controller, and although I will agree it is frustrating to bash weave with it (as are a lot of things with a controller), it's perfectly doable. On the characters I bash weave, I change the 2-combo button to a single button. It still not very convenient, but it's definitely possible.

Impressive, seriously. What button do you map it to? I've got a Razr Wolverine, so I technically do have two (well, 4, but I don't use the paddles bc I accidentally hit them too many times) additional triggers, but I use them for weapon swap and to consume potions since the D-pad defaults are so damn clunky and taking my thumb off of the left joystick to do either puts me at a huge disadvantage.

ArchMikem

This is a PvP nerf that has nothing to do with PvE. Getting stunned and burst down by a 1H&S user with a Heavy>Reverb>LA>Bash combo was just as annoying as all the other ways PvPers complain of like Snipe and Jabs.

The mere fact that equipping a 1H&S is in 90% of PvP builds is telling.

Jaimeh

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I play exclusively with a PS4 controller, and although I will agree it is frustrating to bash weave with it (as are a lot of things with a controller), it's perfectly doable. On the characters I bash weave, I change the 2-combo button to a single button. It still not very convenient, but it's definitely possible.

Impressive, seriously. What button do you map it to? I've got a Razr Wolverine, so I technically do have two (well, 4, but I don't use the paddles bc I accidentally hit them too many times) additional triggers, but I use them for weapon swap and to consume potions since the D-pad defaults are so damn clunky and taking my thumb off of the left joystick to do either puts me at a huge disadvantage.

@SidraWillowsky I map it to the right arrow (which is the default button for quest cycling and death recap), because I found it the most convenient one for weaving with skills. Mind you, I only do it for certain specs and fights--with my ping bash weaving can be more of a detriment than a benefit. I tried the Elite controller, but I thought it was too cumbersome, and it hurt my hands, so I stuck to the PS4 one. If I had extra puddles, I'd map bashing on one of the back paddles though. I'm looking forward to the new PS controller which will supposedly have more buttons, so I can finally remap potions, roll-dodge, bash, and weapon swapping, so I can do these actions without having to pause; consuming pots in particular disrupts my rotation, it's only for a split second, but it's still annoying.

SidraWillowsky

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I play exclusively with a PS4 controller, and although I will agree it is frustrating to bash weave with it (as are a lot of things with a controller), it's perfectly doable. On the characters I bash weave, I change the 2-combo button to a single button. It still not very convenient, but it's definitely possible.

Impressive, seriously. What button do you map it to? I've got a Razr Wolverine, so I technically do have two (well, 4, but I don't use the paddles bc I accidentally hit them too many times) additional triggers, but I use them for weapon swap and to consume potions since the D-pad defaults are so damn clunky and taking my thumb off of the left joystick to do either puts me at a huge disadvantage.

@SidraWillowsky I map it to the right arrow (which is the default button for quest cycling and death recap), because I found it the most convenient one for weaving with skills. Mind you, I only do it for certain specs and fights--with my ping bash weaving can be more of a detriment than a benefit. I tried the Elite controller, but I thought it was too cumbersome, and it hurt my hands, so I stuck to the PS4 one. If I had extra puddles, I'd map bashing on one of the back paddles though. I'm looking forward to the new PS controller which will supposedly have more buttons, so I can finally remap potions, roll-dodge, bash, and weapon swapping, so I can do these actions without having to pause; consuming pots in particular disrupts my rotation, it's only for a split second, but it's still annoying.

Oh, it will be life-changing for you! I don't think I could ever go back to not have the extra triggers for my potions and bar swap.

I'll have to try your bash weave idea, if only to try to learn

Jaimeh

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

You ever tried to bash weave on a controller? It's damn near impossible to do it effectively and it usually turns into a mess. I even have one of dem fancy controllers with a few extra buttons, but trying to remap bash would result in losing out on something else. Nothing to do with laziness in that regard; I can LA weave no problem. Leaving bash weaving as is would have given PC players even more of an advantage over console...

I play exclusively with a PS4 controller, and although I will agree it is frustrating to bash weave with it (as are a lot of things with a controller), it's perfectly doable. On the characters I bash weave, I change the 2-combo button to a single button. It still not very convenient, but it's definitely possible.

Impressive, seriously. What button do you map it to? I've got a Razr Wolverine, so I technically do have two (well, 4, but I don't use the paddles bc I accidentally hit them too many times) additional triggers, but I use them for weapon swap and to consume potions since the D-pad defaults are so damn clunky and taking my thumb off of the left joystick to do either puts me at a huge disadvantage.

@SidraWillowsky I map it to the right arrow (which is the default button for quest cycling and death recap), because I found it the most convenient one for weaving with skills. Mind you, I only do it for certain specs and fights--with my ping bash weaving can be more of a detriment than a benefit. I tried the Elite controller, but I thought it was too cumbersome, and it hurt my hands, so I stuck to the PS4 one. If I had extra puddles, I'd map bashing on one of the back paddles though. I'm looking forward to the new PS controller which will supposedly have more buttons, so I can finally remap potions, roll-dodge, bash, and weapon swapping, so I can do these actions without having to pause; consuming pots in particular disrupts my rotation, it's only for a split second, but it's still annoying.

Oh, it will be life-changing for you! I don't think I could ever go back to not have the extra triggers for my potions and bar swap.

I'll have to try your bash weave idea, if only to try to learn

I'm really looking forward to it! And good luck with the bash-weave if you try the right arrow!

Tigerseye

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous "mechanic" (read bug).

I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

Tigerseye

zvavi wrote: »

Agree. While I despite bash weaving, 80% nerf is an overkill. Bashing dealt minor dmg as it was (don't think I saw the value ever reach 3%, excluding their amazing la changes pts), so 80% nerf puts it under 0.5% dmg addition by doing it. I mean. I mean. Seriously? Like... Seriously? 400 dps by bash weaving. Seriously. That's.... Just sad. Sad I tell you.
They really need to learn to tweak instead of butcher.

Yeah, 400 DPS is ridiculous.

They should have got rid of 100% of it.

Then no one would have had to wonder whether they should still do it, or not.

zvavi

Tigerseye wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Agree. While I despite bash weaving, 80% nerf is an overkill. Bashing dealt minor dmg as it was (don't think I saw the value ever reach 3%, excluding their amazing la changes pts), so 80% nerf puts it under 0.5% dmg addition by doing it. I mean. I mean. Seriously? Like... Seriously? 400 dps by bash weaving. Seriously. That's.... Just sad. Sad I tell you.
They really need to learn to tweak instead of butcher.

Yeah, 400 DPS is ridiculous.

They should have got rid of 100% of it.

Then no one would have had to wonder whether they should still do it, or not.

It is 400 dps in optimal circumstances, in which spammables can crit for 50k+. It means in places where players barely dish out 20k dps the damage will be around 100 dps. Earlier when it was around 2k-ish already people had the option to use, or not to use it. I was living my life with no bash weaving just fine (even though I would still do it a tiny bit on interruptible enemies). I didn't feel like I was forced to bash weave at any single point. At all. I was enjoying my mag life focusing more on positioning etc, using my stamina pool for block/dodge as needed. But for now, it means everyone lose it. Those that enjoyed it too. I am not that of a small man to enjoy the pain of my fellow players.

Tigerseye

zvavi wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Agree. While I despite bash weaving, 80% nerf is an overkill. Bashing dealt minor dmg as it was (don't think I saw the value ever reach 3%, excluding their amazing la changes pts), so 80% nerf puts it under 0.5% dmg addition by doing it. I mean. I mean. Seriously? Like... Seriously? 400 dps by bash weaving. Seriously. That's.... Just sad. Sad I tell you.
They really need to learn to tweak instead of butcher.

Yeah, 400 DPS is ridiculous.

They should have got rid of 100% of it.

Then no one would have had to wonder whether they should still do it, or not.

It is 400 dps in optimal circumstances, in which spammables can crit for 50k+. It means in places where players barely dish out 20k dps the damage will be around 100 dps. Earlier when it was around 2k-ish already people had the option to use, or not to use it. I was living my life with no bash weaving just fine (even though I would still do it a tiny bit on interruptible enemies). I didn't feel like I was forced to bash weave at any single point. At all. I was enjoying my mag life focusing more on positioning etc, using my stamina pool for block/dodge as needed. But for now, it means everyone lose it. Those that enjoyed it too. I am not that of a small man to enjoy the pain of my fellow players.

It's not about whether people enjoy it, or not and it's certainly not about enjoying people's pain.

Normally, I'm live and let live, but some things just shouldn't be, because they go against nature/physics/logic/basic morality, or whatever else.

There are people who enjoy doing all sorts of things, including some things they really shouldn't enjoy doing...

It's not being a "small man" (or woman) to say that something, that really shouldn't exist, shouldn't exist (even if some people enjoy it).

It's just stating a fact that bashing, on a regular basis, as part of your basic rotation, for a DPS boost (not just for defense), makes absolutely no sense, at all.

Just because you can choose to enjoy something, that makes absolutely no sense at all, doesn't mean it should exist, or should have ever existed.

Pinja

Tigerseye wrote: »

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous "mechanic" (read bug).

I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it's the truth.

Some call it a bug I call it a subsequent effect of intended design. Back when this game was focused around Cyrodiil and conquering emperor ships, the bash feature was intentionally given it's own cooldown so players could take advantage of each other in combat and respond immediately. Still is. It's the closet thing in the game to a parry. The idea of punishing an opponent was also intended. Thus the damage, off-balence, and stun were added. These punishing effects deterred hard casting, and brought an enjoyable opportunity to the game labeled exploit. A feature that is still taught in tutorials, but reigns in little in terms of being utilized in combat out side Pvp. To shrink the damage on bash would diminish this already fleeting feature of combat, shorten satisfaction of "exploit," and make pvp less diverse in combat options.

nuttytom

It was a fun mechanic and actually took a bit of skill, [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Raudgrani

It's as much of a "bug" as light attack weaving, which is declared "part of the game" and which at least was encouraged by devs earlier (seems they want to kind of put less emphasis on it now, or make it useless). It's even like historically correct too with "bash weaving", if you look at real world melee combat. It's a well known fact that tribes such as Vikings, the Romans and Spartans were "bash weaving" when fighting.

I don't see this overwhelming urge ZOS seems to have, to constantly change how things works, just for the sake of doing so. Most often they mess things up while doing so. I only "bash weave" in PVP on S&B characters, so t's not such a big loss for me. But I just can't see why?

Raudgrani

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Because mag stam balance?

Isn't mag usually more comfortable being ranged anyway? Feels it's a bit like it's part of the decision you make, when you go either magicka or stamina build in the first place. The world is not a "balanced" place, so I can't see why we have this insatiable thirst for making Tamriel a 100% balanced/fair place? I can't say I've felt like magicka has ever been in a really bad place compared to stamina, they have been playing the game their way - not letting us close enough to bash for example.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings! We've removed some posts given their bashing nature.

We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. As such, we have closed this thread given its non-constructive nature.

Extinct_Solo_Player

ZOS_RachelM wrote: »

Greetings! We've removed some posts given their bashing nature.

We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community. As such, we have closed this thread given its non-constructive nature.

Why cant we bash on the bash nerf? Change is totally stupid and i'm sick of the people making excuses for them not being willing to learn how to bash weave. What's the point of playing a game if you don't want to learn?

Stx

Bash weaving should never have been a thing. Animation cancelling is enough, we dont need more unintended glitchiness as part of a rotation.

Honestly, bashing shouldnt deal damage at all, it's an interrupt ability.

In before the 1%ers whine about silly casuals ruining their skill gap meta.