The Anti-Healer New Vampire

Lilly_Elessa

This is probably beating a dead horse at this point, but here we go...

As a PvE healer the first and biggest thing I noticed with the preview of the new Vampire skills and passives was the skills that prevent another player from healing you. I initially laughed when I saw it, and said something along the lines of 'Oh boy, I see some mishaps in the future'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haY0uuuRkCU&feature=youtu.be
We're talking about Blood Frenzy and the new Mist Form.

But actually, this isn't a laughing matter. This is ongoing in a string of anti-healer changes. And while the prior changes have had "reasons" to "justify" the overwhelmingly poorly received changes... Exactly what purpose does this drawback provide, other than "flavor", that it can't be handled less severely? Halved healing would be fine! It's rough, but at least I can work with that. At least as a healer I won't get blamed for a DPS death when he toggled on one of these buffs, if I can give him some healing until he realizes he needs to toggle the skill off. Or I can (at great expense) still save this DPS from himself, if this dps refuses/forgets to turn the buff off.
But actually, why is the drawback of these skills healing related at all? Or are they so strong that they even need this drawback? There is already a broad drawback to being a vampire at all in non-vampire skills costing more, these 'no healing' drawbacks are basically double dipping on drawbacks. Actually, Blood Frenzy costs health to use, so it's triple dipping into drawbacks. We don't have the numbers, so that question currently can't be answered. But for Blood Frenzy? I'm expecting some completely unreasonable numbers to justify health drain, no healing from other players, and increased cost of all of your other skills...

Or worse, one of the expectations after last year's major healing nerf could happen; We could get this new vampire as is, and we could get the new LA/HA changes as is, and people can decide their sustain is so awesome with the new LAs (as has been mentioned a lot in these threads) that they can keep their vampires even with the other-skill cost increase. And they can toggle on Blood Frenzy all the time. And they can cut healers out of groups altogether for another DPS, maybe a support DPS but still damage instead of healing.
... Okay, that's some worst case scenario worrying there. But the concern is real, the logic of this works, and the biggest obstacle even now to scrapping healers in PvE for non-dungeon finder groups (or reducing trial healers from 2 to 1) is usually simply habit. (Or a wealth of healers, most guilds seem to have a lot of us. Sort of.)

I realize that this is pre-PTS. I realize that this is all subject to change. But the purpose is to get ahead of that and implore: Please do change. More than just some little number tweaks.

mairwen85

It means that vampires have to build more selfishly, similar to werewolf. There are drawbacks to the power gained from being a vampire. No longer just a handful of passives and some minor health drawbacks, this affects your viability in group play if you don't build sufficiently to be a vampire. I think it's an interesting take to be fair. The cost increases are a bit over done, but nothing that can't be fixed or tuned over time.

MashmalloMan

Well you're forgetting that you don't need to be stage 2-4 vampire to use vampire abilities so the tripple dipping argument is a bit weak. Competitive Damage Dealers will all go stage 1 vampire if the cons are as weak as people want them to be on the forums. This is feeling like another way to shoehorn damage dealers into vampirsm, at least Live was a light passive for 10% stam/mag regen. This ability looks like a complete must if it increases damage by the 900 I saw, but obviously numbers can change.

I do see some nice benefits though. Blood Frenzy can serve as a good option for classes that would be able to convert strong, yet passive self-healing into dps. Think Sorcs with Surge, Mag Templar, etc. Normally this passive healing does nothing in group play, healers over heal anyway.

Since the cons on stage 1 vampirsim can't be overtuned, the con was built directly into these abilities. I think you're on the right track for Blood Frenzy. The healing received from outside sources shouldn't be -100%, maybe -50% so healers aren't useless. If this shifted, I'd like to see the health per second increased to punish players that can't keep up with the self-healing per second, this can be handled via the vamp stages where vamp1 or even 2 increase vampire ability costs and stage 3/4 decrease vamp costs.

It's a weird ability. I like it, but don't at the same time. If this wasn't an MMO where it affects the performance of other people like healers, then I would be on board 100%, but it does and just like you said, you will get bad players blaming healers when they can't even do anything to help a damage dealer with Blood Frenzy toggeled. Seems to just add to the toxicity.

This is how I see the passive should be handled:

Regular cost: +0%/+4%/+8%/+12%
Vampire cost: +15%/+0%/-15%/-30%
Fire Damage Taken: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%
HP Reg: -10%/-30%/-60%/-90%

Vaoh

Considering none of the numbers are finalized and it’s on an off-cycle PTS, I wouldn’t stress over it yet. However, if the numbers do go through (it was 900-1000 Damage stat) then goodbye to dungeon healers.

katorga

Vaoh wrote: »

Considering none of the numbers are finalized and it’s on an off-cycle PTS, I wouldn’t stress over it yet. However, if the numbers do go through (it was 900-1000 Damage stat) then goodbye to dungeon healers.

The if stage 4 cost increase is anywhere close to the hypothetical 12% cost increase in the previous post, then the damage stat bonus will have to be huge to get anyone to use vampirism.

VoidCommander

Mentioning your worry about healers becoming useless and that they overheal most of the time, having vampires with blood frenzy toggled on could actually solve the healer problem. Make the healing recieved from outside sources reduced by 50-85%, depending on vampire stage, then when you are doing less than endgame content, all that extra overhealing can be put to good use. Then if you are in a crazy hard trial or vet dlc hardmode, you can simply turn off blood frenzy because all that extra healing is actually necessary.

I will say nerfing the healing by 50% wouldn’t be enough if your personal healing wasn’t affected. I would (as a templar) desire either 50% reduced healing from all sources OR 85% less from outside heals, but full heals from self.

Vaoh

katorga wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Considering none of the numbers are finalized and it’s on an off-cycle PTS, I wouldn’t stress over it yet. However, if the numbers do go through (it was 900-1000 Damage stat) then goodbye to dungeon healers.

The if stage 4 cost increase is anywhere close to the hypothetical 12% cost increase in the previous post, then the damage stat bonus will have to be huge to get anyone to use vampirism.

From @WrathOfInnos thread here.


These are early numbers ofc, but if it stays this way it will be totally worth it to use. In trials it would become active at times where healing from Healers isn’t needed. In dungeons it may be up at all times (though deactivated when out of combat). Each class has selfheals which can compensate for the Health drain too.

I’m not sure if there is a 12% cost increase to all skills. I still think it would be worth it even if that was the case. 930 Weapon/Spell Damage is a bit over seven CP160 gold stat bonuses from sets.

idk

mairwen85 wrote: »

It means that vampires have to build more selfishly, similar to werewolf. There are drawbacks to the power gained from being a vampire. No longer just a handful of passives and some minor health drawbacks, this affects your viability in group play if you don't build sufficiently to be a vampire. I think it's an interesting take to be fair. The cost increases are a bit over done, but nothing that can't be fixed or tuned over time.

25 added fire damage full time is not too small. Granted, skilled players are good at avoiding and mitigating that damage but that is irrelevant. If they do buff WW it needs a similar treatment.

katorga

Vaoh wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Considering none of the numbers are finalized and it’s on an off-cycle PTS, I wouldn’t stress over it yet. However, if the numbers do go through (it was 900-1000 Damage stat) then goodbye to dungeon healers.

The if stage 4 cost increase is anywhere close to the hypothetical 12% cost increase in the previous post, then the damage stat bonus will have to be huge to get anyone to use vampirism.

From @WrathOfInnos thread here.


These are early numbers ofc, but if it stays this way it will be totally worth it to use. In trials it would become active at times where healing from Healers isn’t needed. In dungeons it may be up at all times (though deactivated when out of combat). Each class has selfheals which can compensate for the Health drain too.

I’m not sure if there is a 12% cost increase to all skills. I still think it would be worth it even if that was the case. 930 Weapon/Spell Damage is a bit over seven CP160 gold stat bonuses from sets.

The videos I saw where it wasn't blacked out were 20% cost increase at stage 4, which on a stam character, I could probably endure, maybe - stam abilities are around 15% cheaper than magicka counter parts. 930 weapon damage - in exchange for up to 20% ability cost, a slot, no 3rd party heals and 600 health per second.

So big question, does cost reduction for vampire abilities apply to those with a health cost?

Second question, will light attack weaving fully mitigate the cost increase passive on a current build like NMA/Fury + this ?

Third question, should I even keeping grinding for healer sets for my necro or are healers simply kaput?

Either way, a whole bunch more variables to theorycraft around. Should be fun.

FakeFox

VoidCommander wrote: »

Mentioning your worry about healers becoming useless and that they overheal most of the time, having vampires with blood frenzy toggled on could actually solve the healer problem. Make the healing recieved from outside sources reduced by 50-85%, depending on vampire stage, then when you are doing less than endgame content, all that extra overhealing can be put to good use. Then if you are in a crazy hard trial or vet dlc hardmode, you can simply turn off blood frenzy because all that extra healing is actually necessary.

I will say nerfing the healing by 50% wouldn’t be enough if your personal healing wasn’t affected. I would (as a templar) desire either 50% reduced healing from all sources OR 85% less from outside heals, but full heals from self.

Overhealing in PvE does not have that much to do with actual healing numbers as it primarily comes from support skills passive healing output while there is little to no incoming damage. So you can not say that 85% overheal justifies 85% healing reduction. That said healing is strong enough that you could do every hard mode trial in the game with 50% healing reduction without even dropping support.

peacenote

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This is probably beating a dead horse at this point...

I would say not a dead horse until SOMEONE from ZOS acknowledges how they envisioned the healing role after these changes combined with the LA/HA proposed change. Until then, we need to hear from as many healers as possible, I'd say.

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

This is ongoing in a string of anti-healer changes.

I agree. I still haven't decided if this is being done purposefully (hence the silence, waiting for us to all die out) or simply in a vacuum, but during the last round of healing changes some well known community members were fairly vocal and yet the forums were left to debate and trash the healing role for weeks until AFTER the patch was released, whereupon it was confirmed that the changes were for "performance" and not out of any desire to enhance or condemn current healing practices.

This has the same feel. Those of us who still care about the role are saying "now WAIT a minute, none of this seems great for healers" and... silence. I fear that after the release drops will come the statement "these changes were made to address some issues with DPS, but we intend to look into how this has impacted the healing role for the next patch."

mairwen85 wrote: »

It means that vampires have to build more selfishly, similar to werewolf.

Exactly. How many werewolf healers or tanks do you know (particularly in PvE)? I don't know of any. It is tough to be support and manage all of your responsibilities when you are locked too much into a specific skill line. Already, WW isn't an option for support roles. Now vampire is going to be less accessible AND the skills inherently lend themselves towards self sufficiency and lack of benefit for even having support roles in your group. This is definitely an anti-healer change, though again, probably not intended or envisioned as such at the outset. Likely more just... not considered properly.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is feeling like another way to shoehorn damage dealers into vampirsm, at least Live was a light passive for 10% stam/mag regen.

Agreed. Not only that, but it seems to be very PvP-focused, although there are some interesting PvE possibilities.

I would suggest that, even if those reading this topic who don't particularly enjoy healing, take a moment to advocate for the healing experience if only because you play with friends or guild mates who enjoy healing. Not everyone will want to swap to other roles, especially after having gone through all the toxic "see you guys are just healbots spamming Orbs" commentary not that long ago. Maybe you love DPS but the community will be less vibrant if those of us who main healers fade away, patch after patch.

This is not "learn 2 adapt." This is the systematic dismantling of the versatility, usefulness, and toolkit given to the healing role, which has been frequently set aside in the never-ending quest to deal with the DPS/power creep issue. Please try to help raise some of these questions, before it's too late.

Vaoh

katorga wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Considering none of the numbers are finalized and it’s on an off-cycle PTS, I wouldn’t stress over it yet. However, if the numbers do go through (it was 900-1000 Damage stat) then goodbye to dungeon healers.

The if stage 4 cost increase is anywhere close to the hypothetical 12% cost increase in the previous post, then the damage stat bonus will have to be huge to get anyone to use vampirism.

From @WrathOfInnos thread here.


These are early numbers ofc, but if it stays this way it will be totally worth it to use. In trials it would become active at times where healing from Healers isn’t needed. In dungeons it may be up at all times (though deactivated when out of combat). Each class has selfheals which can compensate for the Health drain too.

I’m not sure if there is a 12% cost increase to all skills. I still think it would be worth it even if that was the case. 930 Weapon/Spell Damage is a bit over seven CP160 gold stat bonuses from sets.

The videos I saw where it wasn't blacked out were 20% cost increase at stage 4, which on a stam character, I could probably endure, maybe - stam abilities are around 15% cheaper than magicka counter parts. 930 weapon damage - in exchange for up to 20% ability cost, a slot, no 3rd party heals and 600 health per second.

So big question, does cost reduction for vampire abilities apply to those with a health cost?

Second question, will light attack weaving fully mitigate the cost increase passive on a current build like NMA/Fury + this ?

Third question, should I even keeping grinding for healer sets for my necro or are healers simply kaput?

Either way, a whole bunch more variables to theorycraft around. Should be fun.

20% that’s rough.

It’s weird because this balance is heavily dependent on how much sustain we will have. However, we have no idea what ZOS intends for us..... sustain may remain the same as it currently is in Harrowstorm. It may skyrocket like we see on PTS. No way to know.

I can’t answer those questions because until ZOS gives us a clear idea of how sustain should be according to them in Greymoor, it could be anywhere from Harrowstorm sustain all the way to drastically higher levels.

Healers are already kinda not needed. In dungeons it’s better to go 3 DPS+1 Tank. Until there is a significant Heal Reduction mechanic on a last boss it will stay this way (think vcr hm execute). This is only the case for really good dungeon groups though - many groups still need Healers for the harder dlc dungeons. The main issue is that stuff either barely hurts you or it oneshots you which makes Healers feel unnecessary.

Even in trials this is becoming the case. vSS HM groups are taking 1 Healer and then a Healer/DPS hybrid which is further supported through sets like Martial Knowledge+Zen’s.

Tigertron

I can see it now...

3 vampire dps and one healer. Dps vote to kick the healer. Pfft.

Iskiab

In one sense I think it’ll mainly be healers who use that ability. If you’re a dps who uses it I wouldn’t use more than passive hots to heal you, you’re on your own.

Septimus_Magna

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of 830 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

Edit: changed the health drain value based on Aedaryl's comment.

Aedaryl

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of ( 576 HP/s x 0.90 ) 518 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

The 576 cost is at vamp stage 4 (with 40% cost reduction). Would be 830/s at stage 1 I think.

XomRhoK

Aedaryl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of ( 576 HP/s x 0.90 ) 518 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

The 576 cost is at vamp stage 4 (with 40% cost reduction). Would be 830/s at stage 1 I think.

Seems it stage 4, because in video you can see costs of other abilities and only stage 4 and 1 give whole numbers after cost equation. But it 576/0,6=960*0,9=864 per second at stage 1 vampirism.
But Resolving Vigor, with 930 wpn damage buff, will heal more for 542 per second, so total cost of the Blood Frenzy decreased to 322 HP/s for stage 1 and to 34 HP/s for stage 4, if player use some HoT in his rotation. Seems like a must have skill for PvP and non DLC PvE at least.
Hello Elder Vampires Online once again, hello one shot kills once again, hello let's skip mechanics once again. Why ZOS keep introduce more and more damage buffs, better introduce some interesting gameplay or mechanic within skill line.
Even if numbers will go down at PTS, i don't think this skill is good game design and interesting to play with. Firstly it buffs all over heals, but not Vampiric Drain, secondly it's 2nd toggle skill in vampiric skill line plus one channeling, so vampire skill line don't look very dynamic, thirdly i don't think were will be some interesting gamplay around this skill, just toggle before fight and keep it to the end, just adjust build accordingly, and one shot assassins, long range assassins will abuse it with almost no drawbacks.

katorga

XomRhoK wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of ( 576 HP/s x 0.90 ) 518 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

The 576 cost is at vamp stage 4 (with 40% cost reduction). Would be 830/s at stage 1 I think.

Seems it stage 4, because in video you can see costs of other abilities and only stage 4 and 1 give whole numbers after cost equation. But it 576/0,6=960*0,9=864 per second at stage 1 vampirism.
But Resolving Vigor, with 930 wpn damage buff, will heal more for 542 per second, so total cost of the Blood Frenzy decreased to 322 HP/s for stage 1 and to 34 HP/s for stage 4, if player use some HoT in his rotation. Seems like a must have skill for PvP and non DLC PvE at least.
Hello Elder Vampires Online once again, hello one shot kills once again, hello let's skip mechanics once again. Why ZOS keep introduce more and more damage buffs, better introduce some interesting gameplay or mechanic within skill line.
Even if numbers will go down at PTS, i don't think this skill is good game design and interesting to play with. Firstly it buffs all over heals, but not Vampiric Drain, secondly it's 2nd toggle skill in vampiric skill line plus one channeling, so vampire skill line don't look very dynamic, thirdly i don't think were will be some interesting gamplay around this skill, just toggle before fight and keep it to the end, just adjust build accordingly, and one shot assassins, long range assassins will abuse it with almost no drawbacks.

Gonna be fun while it lasts. ZOS will turn around an wreck it later.

ValueDrift

Yeah, this skill isn't going to do the healer role any favors. If the final version resembles current numbers, every meta dps build will run the toggle and bring their own healing.

VaxtinTheWolf

I thought I heard/read somewhere that the cost per second increases the longer it's active.

XomRhoK

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

I thought I heard/read somewhere that the cost per second increases the longer it's active.

It's one of the morphs Cold Blood: "Every second this ability remains toggled on increases the bonus and cost by X%, up to a maximum of Y%"

Aedaryl

XomRhoK wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of ( 576 HP/s x 0.90 ) 518 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

The 576 cost is at vamp stage 4 (with 40% cost reduction). Would be 830/s at stage 1 I think.

Seems it stage 4, because in video you can see costs of other abilities and only stage 4 and 1 give whole numbers after cost equation. But it 576/0,6=960*0,9=864 per second at stage 1 vampirism.
But Resolving Vigor, with 930 wpn damage buff, will heal more for 542 per second, so total cost of the Blood Frenzy decreased to 322 HP/s for stage 1 and to 34 HP/s for stage 4, if player use some HoT in his rotation. Seems like a must have skill for PvP and non DLC PvE at least.
Hello Elder Vampires Online once again, hello one shot kills once again, hello let's skip mechanics once again. Why ZOS keep introduce more and more damage buffs, better introduce some interesting gameplay or mechanic within skill line.
Even if numbers will go down at PTS, i don't think this skill is good game design and interesting to play with. Firstly it buffs all over heals, but not Vampiric Drain, secondly it's 2nd toggle skill in vampiric skill line plus one channeling, so vampire skill line don't look very dynamic, thirdly i don't think were will be some interesting gamplay around this skill, just toggle before fight and keep it to the end, just adjust build accordingly, and one shot assassins, long range assassins will abuse it with almost no drawbacks.

In PvP, You heal 50% less so it's still 500/s at stage 1, it's not that small (sload at apocalipse was around 800/s), also don't forget the HP regen debuff that increase that number.

Stage 4 vampire is 20% increase cost to non vampire abilities, that's compensate for sure and stage 1 is 5%

The cost shouldn't be changed because it would make it unusable in PVP, you could reduce the damage buff part though, or make the damage buff be 900 at stage 4 to make sure it's not OP

Also, the 900 weap/spell damage is not compensating light attack damage nerf, and with the meta being tanky as hell, I don't think people will one shot easely.

XomRhoK

Aedaryl wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

First of all, you dont have to be stage 4 vamp to use the new vamp skills.
If you stay in stage 1 its only a 5% cost increase for non-vamp skills.

For Blood Frenzy (as stage 1 vamp) the pro's and con's would be:

Pro's
930 weapon/spell damage
Vampire Ability Costs -10%

Con's
You cannot be healed by anyone other than yourself
Health drain of ( 576 HP/s x 0.90 ) 518 HP/s
Health Recovery -10%
Flame Damage Taken +5%
Regular Ability Costs +5%

I think its absolutely hilarious that ZOS tries to raise the floor and lower the ceiling by (possibly) nerfing light attack damage but at roughly the same time this skill is introduced. It raises the ceiling and lowers the floor significantly so all the efforts for the light attack changes are pointless and just make things more confusing for the casual player. We're not even discussing the damage morph Cold Blood which is even stronger if you can stay alive.

@Lilly_Elessa I completely agree that there shouldnt be a complete stop for incoming healing, many vet dungeons are already easy to clear without a healer because the tank can self-heal and the DDs can avoid most damage. I also expect some players to run the skill without properly reading the tooltip and blame everyone because they constantly die. Done correctly Blood Fenzy could actually make healers more valuable, if the user is effected more/longer by DOTs for example.

The 576 cost is at vamp stage 4 (with 40% cost reduction). Would be 830/s at stage 1 I think.

Seems it stage 4, because in video you can see costs of other abilities and only stage 4 and 1 give whole numbers after cost equation. But it 576/0,6=960*0,9=864 per second at stage 1 vampirism.
But Resolving Vigor, with 930 wpn damage buff, will heal more for 542 per second, so total cost of the Blood Frenzy decreased to 322 HP/s for stage 1 and to 34 HP/s for stage 4, if player use some HoT in his rotation. Seems like a must have skill for PvP and non DLC PvE at least.
Hello Elder Vampires Online once again, hello one shot kills once again, hello let's skip mechanics once again. Why ZOS keep introduce more and more damage buffs, better introduce some interesting gameplay or mechanic within skill line.
Even if numbers will go down at PTS, i don't think this skill is good game design and interesting to play with. Firstly it buffs all over heals, but not Vampiric Drain, secondly it's 2nd toggle skill in vampiric skill line plus one channeling, so vampire skill line don't look very dynamic, thirdly i don't think were will be some interesting gamplay around this skill, just toggle before fight and keep it to the end, just adjust build accordingly, and one shot assassins, long range assassins will abuse it with almost no drawbacks.

In PvP, You heal 50% less so it's still 500/s at stage 1, it's not that small (sload at apocalipse was around 800/s), also don't forget the HP regen debuff that increase that number.

HP regen debuff is not related to Blood Frenzy skill, but i will recalculate cost anyway.
So standrat Health regen is 154,5 HP/s. Cyrodiil's Battle Spirit reduce heal by 50%.
In PvE considering Resolving Vigor in rotation Blood Frenzy will cost: 322 HP/s for stage 1, and 34 HP/s for stage 4.
In PvE considering Health regen debuff of vampirism and Resolving Vigor in rotation Blood Frenzy will cost: 337,5 HP/s for stage 1, and 188.5 HP/s for stage 4.
In PvP considering Battle Spirit healing debuff and Resolving Vigor in rotation Blood Frenzy will cost: 593 HP/s for stage 1, and 305 HP/s for stage 4.
In PvP considering Health regen debuff of vampirism, Battle Spirit healing debuff and Resolving Vigor in rotation Blood Frenzy will cost: 608,5 HP/s for stage 1, and 459.5 HP/s for stage 4.

Tessitura

You know, its not the developers job to police behavior, ( Outside of enforcing the EULA ). Healers get blamed by bad dps and tanks in every game, thats just part of the role at this point. They should not be forced to design abilities around the idea that if someone uses it wrong, they will get mad at others. Just kick the *** out of the group, and keep going.