How the LA/HA changes fail to fulfill ZOS's stated goals and what could be done instead?

Toc de Malsvi

TheFM wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one thinks blocking should increase regen and be the primary source of resource restoration, with the caveat that if one actually blocks a hit, then it ends up costing resources.

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

The fact that light and heavy attacks don't cost resources to cast is enough. No need to attach additional sustain to them.

I understand that these things may be more "intuitive" than basic attacks restoring resources, but ... come on guys. You have to operate within the content and combat design of the game to *some* extent.

Blocking as a resource restore tool doesn't remotely work. How would you restore resources in something like HoF Assembly General, where you are constantly being hit with spinning blades and meteors? How would a PvP tank ever un-turtle to restore resource when being mobbed by opponents?

There has to be some way to restore resources on-demand. The current system, where HAs do the trick, works really well ... because you have to wait for an opportunity to be able to charge a full heavy attack.

The players pushing for these changes to go live are not objective at all. They are just happy people who have put time into the game are getting mega shafted. That is it.

I don’t think you really have read or understand what you read. Or maybe you don’t know what objective means.

We don’t need basic attacks to restore resources in any way. The “need to restore resources on demand” is already filled by potions. If you are already using potions on CD and running out then you are either not building for sustain or you are using your resources without thought or care. In the more dynamic content of PvP you do not always use potions on CD, you use them as needed for their on demand effects.

That is to completely ignore that any sustain losses from basic attacks can be filled with changes to passives, potions, or skills. The current game is designed with basic attack resource generation in mind, but it is not entirely dependent on it. Changing that is not the end of the world.

TheFM

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one thinks blocking should increase regen and be the primary source of resource restoration, with the caveat that if one actually blocks a hit, then it ends up costing resources.

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

The fact that light and heavy attacks don't cost resources to cast is enough. No need to attach additional sustain to them.

I understand that these things may be more "intuitive" than basic attacks restoring resources, but ... come on guys. You have to operate within the content and combat design of the game to *some* extent.

Blocking as a resource restore tool doesn't remotely work. How would you restore resources in something like HoF Assembly General, where you are constantly being hit with spinning blades and meteors? How would a PvP tank ever un-turtle to restore resource when being mobbed by opponents?

There has to be some way to restore resources on-demand. The current system, where HAs do the trick, works really well ... because you have to wait for an opportunity to be able to charge a full heavy attack.

The players pushing for these changes to go live are not objective at all. They are just happy people who have put time into the game are getting mega shafted. That is it.

I don’t think you really have read or understand what you read. Or maybe you don’t know what objective means.

We don’t need basic attacks to restore resources in any way. The “need to restore resources on demand” is already filled by potions. If you are already using potions on CD and running out then you are either not building for sustain or you are using your resources without thought or care. In the more dynamic content of PvP you do not always use potions on CD, you use them as needed for their on demand effects.

That is to completely ignore that any sustain losses from basic attacks can be filled with changes to passives, potions, or skills. The current game is designed with basic attack resource generation in mind, but it is not entirely dependent on it. Changing that is not the end of the world.

Sure, if we could get rid of resource return on attacks completely, I would totally be onboard with that. I am talking about the people who are happy that light attacks are getting nerfed by 78 percent, which is ludicrous and clearly just out of spite.

idk

TheFM wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

This one thinks blocking should increase regen and be the primary source of resource restoration, with the caveat that if one actually blocks a hit, then it ends up costing resources.

Strider__Roshin wrote: »

The fact that light and heavy attacks don't cost resources to cast is enough. No need to attach additional sustain to them.

I understand that these things may be more "intuitive" than basic attacks restoring resources, but ... come on guys. You have to operate within the content and combat design of the game to *some* extent.

Blocking as a resource restore tool doesn't remotely work. How would you restore resources in something like HoF Assembly General, where you are constantly being hit with spinning blades and meteors? How would a PvP tank ever un-turtle to restore resource when being mobbed by opponents?

There has to be some way to restore resources on-demand. The current system, where HAs do the trick, works really well ... because you have to wait for an opportunity to be able to charge a full heavy attack.

The players pushing for these changes to go live are not objective at all. They are just happy people who have put time into the game are getting mega shafted. That is it.

Quite the contrary. Code, the OP of this thread, has been quite objective and demonstrates a deep understanding of the mechanics as well as playstyles across the player base. If anything players rallying to keep the status quo because they do well with it are the ones leaning towards subjective.

The OP of this thread is probably the most objective and well though idea posted since Zos announced these changes and takes into account all levels of gameplay.

Zippy81

I agree with Code on all except the sustain coming from attacks. Heck, attacks should COST a little bit of stamina or magicka as they're the source of damage.

In my opinion, Toc de Malsvi is totally right saying that we have lots of ways to restore resources. And here we come to the key word: RESTORE.

We have a weapon called restoration staff. I think if we need more resources, a change could be done to that very weapon and its abilities. There could be morphs that support stamina return, passives could also do that. Even heavy attacks could add a bit of resource sustain to its healing. And why would restoration staves damage enemies? It's not why they are there. Stamina from a healer? - you'll ask. Sure, we already have the sentinel monster set and the master resto staff.

We have damage dealers and supporters in this game. In some situations, the support role isn't even needed anymore, like healers in dungeons.

And then we have the EMPOWER buff. It buffs light attacks. But why? I love the proper empower we have in the two-handed passives that buffs the next attack. That is the EMPOWER I'd like to see, you focus your strength and stamina on that burst attack. To make people use different attacks, however, I'd add a punishment for spamming heavy attacks - higher cost of abilities. Let's say you empower your attacks for 5 seconds by a % and you make your attacks last longer for that duration, the same way Molag Kena monster set works.

The numbers balancing is the second step. Add a % of resources return in other places and it'll be fine.

Zippy81

Zippy81 wrote: »

I agree with Code on all except the sustain coming from attacks. Heck, attacks should COST a little bit of stamina or magicka as they're the source of damage.

Let's say you empower your attacks for 5 seconds by a % and you make your attacks last longer for that duration, the same way Molag Kena monster set works.

The numbers balancing is the second step. Add a % of resources return in other places and it'll be fine.

...your attacks cast stronger...

For some reason I couldn't find the edit option.

montiferus

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

TheFM

montiferus wrote: »

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

[snip]

Distraction tactic and pandering the worst players. Its the only game developers I have ever seen that seem to think people who practiced should be punished instead of rewarded.

idk

Zippy81 wrote: »

I agree with Code on all except the sustain coming from attacks. Heck, attacks should COST a little bit of stamina or magicka as they're the source of damage.

In my opinion, Toc de Malsvi is totally right saying that we have lots of ways to restore resources. And here we come to the key word: RESTORE.

We have a weapon called restoration staff. I think if we need more resources, a change could be done to that very weapon and its abilities. There could be morphs that support stamina return, passives could also do that. Even heavy attacks could add a bit of resource sustain to its healing. And why would restoration staves damage enemies? It's not why they are there. Stamina from a healer? - you'll ask. Sure, we already have the sentinel monster set and the master resto staff.

We have damage dealers and supporters in this game. In some situations, the support role isn't even needed anymore, like healers in dungeons.

And then we have the EMPOWER buff. It buffs light attacks. But why? I love the proper empower we have in the two-handed passives that buffs the next attack. That is the EMPOWER I'd like to see, you focus your strength and stamina on that burst attack. To make people use different attacks, however, I'd add a punishment for spamming heavy attacks - higher cost of abilities. Let's say you empower your attacks for 5 seconds by a % and you make your attacks last longer for that duration, the same way Molag Kena monster set works.

The numbers balancing is the second step. Add a % of resources return in other places and it'll be fine.

I could get behind basic attacks not restoring resources. Basic attacks did not inherently restore resources when the game was launched. The rStaff had a passive for resource return plus a different passive that increased damage done. Zos removed the latter passive and added sustain to heavy attacks of all weapons. Those changes were likely to get Magicka DPS to move away from using a rStaff in PvE.

One thought, both tanking and healing resource use works differently than DPS as a DPS can still do a basic attack as a filler. Healers and tanks have no use of such a filler if it does not return resources. Since Zos has a penchant for nerfing sustain this could easily have an impact down the road, let along with lesser experienced tanks and healers now.

However, I still think basic attacks should be free. Most, if not all, MMORPGs I have played had a basic attack that did lower damage and did not cost resources. Further, since the damage of a basic attack in ESO is based on the time spent activating it, with the OP's suggestion and what Zos has us testing, the cost is time. As long as the damage is designed so a player cannot do a basic attack after basic attack after basic attack and still do strong damage it is ok.

Regardless, discussions like this are healthy at times like this. Ideas lead to other ideas.

idk

TheFM wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

Fix the game first you incompetent clowns.

Distraction tactic and pandering the worst players. Its the only game developers I have ever seen that seem to think people who practiced should be punished instead of rewarded.

Not at all. Before Morrowind, basic attack damage increased the longer it was channeled. Somewhat similar to the damage aspect we are testing on the PTS and what is suggested in the OP. The practiced player still did more damage as is the case in pretty much every MMORPG.

A player who practices will still be rewarded for that practice as it has always been in this game.

TheFM

idk wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

Fix the game first you incompetent clowns.

Distraction tactic and pandering the worst players. Its the only game developers I have ever seen that seem to think people who practiced should be punished instead of rewarded.

Not at all. Before Morrowind, basic attack damage increased the longer it was channeled. Somewhat similar to the damage aspect we are testing on the PTS and what is suggested in the OP. The practiced player still did more damage as is the case in pretty much every MMORPG.

A player who practices will still be rewarded for that practice as it has always been in this game.

Except doing constant heavy attacks is BORING AF , and the opposite of fast engaging gameplay. Why not have TWO seperate playstyles in the game? Its absurd neutering one and buffing the other.

YandereGirlfriend

Zippy81 wrote: »

I agree with Code on all except the sustain coming from attacks. Heck, attacks should COST a little bit of stamina or magicka as they're the source of damage.

In my opinion, Toc de Malsvi is totally right saying that we have lots of ways to restore resources. And here we come to the key word: RESTORE.

So not only are some suggesting that we give away the sustain from Light Attacks but now there are calls for nerfs to the sustain already on Live?

With respect, do any of the folks calling for these sustain nerfs do end-game raiding? You use potions on cooldown because you want the 100% Major Endurance/Intellect uptime not because you are in dire need of the resources at that moment.

You are trying to maximize DPS and taking up valuable GCDs to Dark Deal or whatever not only feels like terrible gameplay but it also drastically decreases DPS. Using the old Heavy Attacks to restore resources in a desperate situation felt awful but was at least somewhat tolerable because the Heavy Attack actually did damage, whereas Dark Deal et al are simply wasted GCDs.

I wish that we would stop trying to fix things that are not actually broken. If someone feels as though they currently have too much sustain, it is likely because are not using a skill every GCD or otherwise are not using optimized rotations.

xXMeowMeowXx

Code you put a lot of work into things and it is appreciated greatly. Thank you Hope they listen to most your ideas.

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@code65536 brilliant post mate.
The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

But it does not. Nerfing light attack damage does not close the gap, just makes it wider.
Using light attacks for damage is intuitive and what everyone does when they lack the experience.

Especially since it works the same in most other games (base attacks) and any pug I have ever seen in dungeons spammed light attacks. And that is fine. It is easy, it is fast and it rewards new players with a reasonable amount of dps. Light attacks should not be touched at all. Maybe even buffed honestly. They can buff heavy attacks, that is appreciated. But they need to maintain their ressource gain. When they buffed the damage of light attacks a while ago, they helped new players much more because that is literally what new players do for damage. They do not heavy attack when they want damage. Even with these changes, heavy attacks remine unloved by nearly everybody.


So obviously, reducing their damage will hurt new players more than veteran players. It widens the gap. Light attacks should remain as they are or be improved even to help newer players.

yh I really agree that this ^ is being completely missed in all of this and makes perfect sense.

To me I have found that Light attacks are over nerfed for proper class balance. This will not create diversity but take away from it.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@code65536 Thank you kindly for this constructive and well thought out feedback!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

After testing I see where you are going with this and I do hope you will listen to @code65536 feedback sincerely before going live. Pretty please with a cherry on top

Also, imo light attacks are over nerfed and the damaged should only be reduced to around 25%-20% for the sweet spot.

You can always adjust light attacks more in another update after seeing how it performs on live. {tweaking would be a nice thing to see, as well}

Next thing is spammable skills really need a slight buff for even a better polished change.

Thanks for taking the time to read through feedback and consider things.

TheFM

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Code you put a lot of work into things and it is appreciated greatly. Thank you Hope they listen to most your ideas.

Dracane wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@code65536 brilliant post mate.
The best feedback I've read to this change so far. I'm glad Brian has read it and sees that.

It 100% softens the change, makes heavy and light more intuitive and does close the skill gap, more than what is currently suggested by the Devs.

I hope they implement your idea and acknowledge you for it!

But it does not. Nerfing light attack damage does not close the gap, just makes it wider.
Using light attacks for damage is intuitive and what everyone does when they lack the experience.

Especially since it works the same in most other games (base attacks) and any pug I have ever seen in dungeons spammed light attacks. And that is fine. It is easy, it is fast and it rewards new players with a reasonable amount of dps. Light attacks should not be touched at all. Maybe even buffed honestly. They can buff heavy attacks, that is appreciated. But they need to maintain their ressource gain. When they buffed the damage of light attacks a while ago, they helped new players much more because that is literally what new players do for damage. They do not heavy attack when they want damage. Even with these changes, heavy attacks remine unloved by nearly everybody.


So obviously, reducing their damage will hurt new players more than veteran players. It widens the gap. Light attacks should remain as they are or be improved even to help newer players.

yh I really agree that this ^ is being completely missed in all of this and makes perfect sense.

To me I have found that Light attacks are over nerfed for proper class balance. This will not create diversity but take away from it.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@code65536 Thank you kindly for this constructive and well thought out feedback!

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

After testing I see where you are going with this and I do hope you listen to @code65536 feedback sincerely before going live. Pretty please with a cherry on top

Also, imo light attacks are over nerfed and the damaged should only be reduced around 25%-20% for the sweet spot.

You can always adjust light attacks more in another update after seeing how it performs on live. {tweaking would be a nice thing to see, as well}

Next thing is spammable skills really need a slight buff for even a better polished change.

Thanks for taking the time to read through feedback and consider things.

I agree with you and code, as much as i think they should just scrap the idea ALL together, if they do go through with it they will NEED to listen to what you just said and code. Otherwise the tank meta will all but be unbeatable.

JohnOfMarkarth

Reading the original post of this. Lad has very likeable idea of how to boost us. But IDK if it would help someone like me.

But... Am starting to think


Am I weird?
I might be weird. Crazy and maybe just odd but. Hear me out.

For me, as a low actions per minute (LAPM) guy (partially on purpose, the rest of this text will explain why its on purpose), intuitive action isnt to spam LA or HA... I play games for the bang for the buck. IE. By logic of videogame basics... if I do something that looks cool by animation on purpose, something that feels impactful... I would like it effective. Its visual pleasure. Visual experience. A fully winded unblocked uppercut will cut a lad's face in half...

So. Am not the lowAPM guy who spams LA/HA. Am a lowAPM guy who uses abilities, trying to avoid the use of what seems and looks AND FEELS unimpactful and boring. Focusing on LA and HA is that very thing. Slow. Unimpactful. Boring.
I try to 'spam' abilities that are both kinda effective and amazing and feel impactful. But to do the impactful thing and have it be effective, i have to have two tons of setup and a light weave added in.


What i do: I use mostly direct attack abilities (be it executes, uppercuts or low slashes and heavy bashes, be it crystal frags or spears, be it whips or light shards (they look cool and feel impactful even if they are more a dot)). Cus they "look cool" "feel impactful" and using them is fun. (and the fact people think that thats *** reason to play... is kindof insulting to very nature of videogames)

My approach effects my APM because to do any meaningful damage I have to...:
- drink a potion (and remember to do it then go outta my way to use it, interrupting action line, thus the feel of action (seems minor and this one is minor too but wait. The small specs are what make a snowball))
- weave a light attack to regain resources (another spec on the snowball)
- fire a setup skill
- WeAvE (+snowball size)
- fire a dot (acceptable)*
- wEaVe (+snowball size)
- fire a second dot (kinda acceptable but slight addition to snowball)*
- WeEeEe!ave (+that snowball is bigger then my head now)
- keep them in mind rather then the abilities that actually are more intuitive for me (in this moment that snowball outweights me (am 76kg, it isnt that hard)
- do something fun once (finally...) and then repeat the cycle


Call me weird...
But my fun is in impactful-ness not in light or heavy attack or setups. And how they would help me personally, as a lowAPM player is:

Make the fun attacks, like spammables... deal more damage based on NOT being made as followups to LA/HA. But not so much as to remove the gap alltogether...


Like this:

spammables like Cool Whip... i mean lava whip or the other morph... will deal x% more damage for every second LA/HA wasnt used up to x% (and am NOT saying it should be 10% per, up to 50%).


So what would possibly happen after this would go is this:

Weavers will continue to weave, as it doesnt affect their damage they are already doing

Midweavers might be nearly on the same level but not exactly as weavers (see their flat damage increase would be there but at the cost of efficiency, thus balancing it out). Knowing how to rotate and weave. But not being pencil-numbers gods.

Low-to-no weavers will not be on midweaver level... but much closer to them. As their flat-fun damage is higher then Midweavers but their damage that comes from efficiency is drastically lower still. The efficiency gap is left intact but some of it is covered with a layer of flat damage from fun abilities cus they dont weave much. But since it has an "up to x%" cap... it wont blow the lid on skill-gap


*- in some situations DoTs feel even better then uppercuts. To see your enemy ran down like a ragdoll over seconds like on a whim of your will can feel amazing)

This is a view of a skill-user LAPM man. It wont be meaningful to people whom are LA/HA LAPM really.


So... as a TLDR:
- Basic attacks are boring and unintuitive for me. Very much so.
- Using the impactful and fun abilities is unrewarding and rarely doable, if one wants proper dmg
- setup and weave is god that crushes fun for those who didnt ahm... push through their boredom to master it and when they did... they did it for long enough to see it fun... even if it really isnt. Like when someone who hates warehouses ... grows loves working in a low paid warehouse. He grew to like it cus theres little else he knows anymore. Like a man who hated it back then but, now wants to keep it that way or hopes it would be back... --- Wait... wait.

I think I might just have managed to use "OK boomer" card on pro-weavers with that comparison. Which, if true... would mean I win by default. --- ahm ahm... sorry. That wasnt the point.
I would also like to ask myself: who do i still care...

StarOfElyon

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Mad respect Code, but i'll go back to what I said in my thread last night/this morning. It would be better for everyone to simply unchain sustain from attacks entirely. That pleases players who just spam skills and don't want to LA/HA, they lose DPS, it's a fair trade-off that doesn't stamp out their playstyle. People that can effectively weave gain DPS varying on what types of attacks they are using. This eliminates the weird dynamic they want where "one is for damage and one is for sustain". It makes race choice MUCH more vital. It also pushes the idea that classes and races should be the main source of built-in sustain.

I know this might be heresy but I don't think heavy or light attacking for sustain is intuitive at all unless you use an absorbing enchantment on your weapons. Just use those if you want resource return.

Bryath

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I know this might be heresy but I don't think heavy or light attacking for sustain is intuitive at all unless you use an absorbing enchantment on your weapons. Just use those if you want resource return.

Restoration staff heavies have always felt intuitive to me as a resource return due to the animation that really looks like you are draining ... something .. from your enemy. Otherwise I agree, not intuitive in any way.

idk

TheFM wrote: »

idk wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

Fix the game first you incompetent clowns.

Distraction tactic and pandering the worst players. Its the only game developers I have ever seen that seem to think people who practiced should be punished instead of rewarded.

Not at all. Before Morrowind, basic attack damage increased the longer it was channeled. Somewhat similar to the damage aspect we are testing on the PTS and what is suggested in the OP. The practiced player still did more damage as is the case in pretty much every MMORPG.

A player who practices will still be rewarded for that practice as it has always been in this game.

Except doing constant heavy attacks is BORING AF , and the opposite of fast engaging gameplay. Why not have TWO seperate playstyles in the game? Its absurd neutering one and buffing the other.

Interesting response. Those of us that have been around for a while remember that we did not weave heavy attacks into our skills. It was more of a medium attack and worked quite well. If you find the current design interesting you will still find a medium weave just as rewarding. Nothing is getting neutered and our rotations will only receive a slight change.

Those who were top players before Morrowind were still top players after Morrowind. The same will occur if this change goes live.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Zos make the OP so, it just makes plain sense. Adjust the damage and resource values for light, medium and heavy attacks as needed. Codes post hits the mark. Would love to see this go live by Greymoor release.

John_Falstaff

idk wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

idk wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Here is the bigger question. This game is practically unplayable (specifically prime time PVP) and this is what ZOS decides to devote its time to? A change nobody asked for?

Fix the game first you incompetent clowns.

Distraction tactic and pandering the worst players. Its the only game developers I have ever seen that seem to think people who practiced should be punished instead of rewarded.

Not at all. Before Morrowind, basic attack damage increased the longer it was channeled. Somewhat similar to the damage aspect we are testing on the PTS and what is suggested in the OP. The practiced player still did more damage as is the case in pretty much every MMORPG.

A player who practices will still be rewarded for that practice as it has always been in this game.

Except doing constant heavy attacks is BORING AF , and the opposite of fast engaging gameplay. Why not have TWO seperate playstyles in the game? Its absurd neutering one and buffing the other.

Interesting response. Those of us that have been around for a while remember that we did not weave heavy attacks into our skills. It was more of a medium attack and worked quite well. If you find the current design interesting you will still find a medium weave just as rewarding. Nothing is getting neutered and our rotations will only receive a slight change.

Those who were top players before Morrowind were still top players after Morrowind. The same will occur if this change goes live.

HA builds were widespread after Morrowind not because people enjoyed them, but because of sustain issues, and I'm not sure where "worked quite well" came from. It just worked, it doesn't mean it was any more engaging than before. I'm also not sure where the logical jump between "if find current design interesting..." and "...you will <> find a medium weave just as rewarding". I don't see how one follows from another. What top players are (forced to be) doing and what they and others enjoy are absolutely unrelated things.

Besides, I'd love you to explain how medium weaves will be playing towards NB playstyle. Will medium weave be adding 1.5 stacks to grim focus counter since it's neither heavy nor light? How NBs will keep the rate of bow procs the same (as it's core of their damage structure)?

aetherial_heavenn

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I like that idea! Buffing a spammable to compensate for lost LA damage means that we maintain the current power levels for players who do LA-weaves. Essentially, it would be shifting damage from the LA to the spammable.

But for players who miss light attacks and thus only get their spammable off, they'll be better off than they were on Live. Still not as good as someone who gets the weave, of course, but it would close the power gap somewhat.

As a general rule I think moving damage away from LA/HA into class skills/spammables is a net benefit for ESO. One complaint you constantly hear is the death of class identity and how weapon skills are too dominant in a lot of cases/scenarios. Transitioning power away from the "we all share this" to class skills could break things for a minute, but if it was balanced properly and carefully, could create a much more overall enjoyable game.

This is what I would prefer as a middle ground player who would like to get better but has physical limitations. (ESO skews older than twitchy point and shooters, so arthritis or just RSI can be an issue for quite a few players atm. Poor LA weaving can be simply caused by a physical barrier to getting better. It just plain hurts) Lag is the other impediment to perfect weaving.

Adjusting the spammables, and being able to balance resources with each type of attack makes sense (if resource regen has to be attached to the weapon). Making each class have a good slightly buffed spammable that is also the class identifier /main class skill appeals strongly. edit: It wouldn't change the top much imo; those who practised hard to get good at LA weaving would still do more damage than someone who cannot. Just as someone who uses class skills appropriately as well as weaving poorly....but trying to do it... would be better than someone who does neither.

Thanks for well thought out posts and ideas, both of you.

Voltos

Considering we're on the topic of reworking Light/Heavy attacks, I would like to add something to this discussion.

I think now would be a great time to incorporate the Major Sorcery and Major Brutality buffs into your Light/Heavy attacks instead of a handful off skills. In my opinion, these buffs are essential to successful game play and should be available to everyone. Personally, I think the current system limits build diversity and I find that very frustrating as a player.

John_Falstaff

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I like that idea! Buffing a spammable to compensate for lost LA damage means that we maintain the current power levels for players who do LA-weaves. Essentially, it would be shifting damage from the LA to the spammable.

But for players who miss light attacks and thus only get their spammable off, they'll be better off than they were on Live. Still not as good as someone who gets the weave, of course, but it would close the power gap somewhat.

As a general rule I think moving damage away from LA/HA into class skills/spammables is a net benefit for ESO. One complaint you constantly hear is the death of class identity and how weapon skills are too dominant in a lot of cases/scenarios. Transitioning power away from the "we all share this" to class skills could break things for a minute, but if it was balanced properly and carefully, could create a much more overall enjoyable game.

This is what I would prefer as a middle ground player who would like to get better but has physical limitations. (ESO skews older than twitchy point and shooters, so arthritis or just RSI can be an issue for quite a few players atm. Poor LA weaving can be simply caused by a physical barrier to getting better. It just plain hurts) Lag is the other impediment to perfect weaving.

Adjusting the spammables, and being able to balance resources with each type of attack makes sense (if resource regen has to be attached to the weapon). Making each class have a good spammable that is also the class identifier /main class skill appeals strongly.

Thanks for well thought out posts and ideas, both of you.

People with less fine motor control already have found their occupation in ESO, and that's leaning towards being tanks and healers. And here's the thing, they're in for a surprise: as tanks, they now will have to weave LAs to gain resources, and they also have to block-cancel LAs if they don't want to be one-shot. So poor LA weavers who so far enjoyed being tanks will suddenly find out that they, instead of simply block-casting skills and opening up for 0.8s when they see an opportunity for HA, will have to weave and block cancel their LAs if they want to keep getting resources. So much about reducing the gap - because of those changes, a huge gap was created where there was none before.

Preechr

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

My approach effects my APM because to do any meaningful damage I have to...:
- drink a potion (and remember to do it then go outta my way to use it, interrupting action line, thus the feel of action (seems minor and this one is minor too but wait. The small specs are what make a snowball))
- weave a light attack to regain resources (another spec on the snowball)
- fire a setup skill
- WeAvE (+snowball size)
- fire a dot (acceptable)*
- wEaVe (+snowball size)
- fire a second dot (kinda acceptable but slight addition to snowball)*
- WeEeEe!ave (+that snowball is bigger then my head now)
- keep them in mind rather then the abilities that actually are more intuitive for me (in this moment that snowball outweights me (am 76kg, it isnt that hard)
- do something fun once (finally...) and then repeat the cycle

While I agree that the mechanics of a top level dps rotation are fairly unimmersive to say the least, you don't have to submit to doing them... and you don't, as you say. There are plenty of solo builds on youtube, mostly from Hack the Minotaur, that can illustrate good jumping-off points for making whatever you want to do work, without anyone's help, to take on world bosses or run dungeons. Solo.

What that says is that once you get your end game gear going and spend a little time thinking through how your skills work, the attacks you will be making will feel plenty impactful regardless if you are min-maxed for trials or not. Some work and practice will make you welcome in a lot of groups that aren't in the top-end elite category.

Like it or not, and I'm not a big fan either, there will always be a subsection of players in any game that would probably be happier playing dance dance revolution on a spreadsheet, focusing on bleeding-edge optimization in order to turn every part of an otherwise fun role-playing experience into angsty speedruns. There are plenty of others that get joy from ignoring the rich and fascinating fantasy setting and log in every day just to flip items on the market, others who spend all their time trying to score cheap goods off noobs that don't know what stuff is worth, and even more than a few that just love more than anything to mindlessly grind the same things over and over. Oh, and then there are always the trolls. Oh, and the zone-chatters...

Unfortunately, among each of these groups there are a few members that get so much of their sense of self-worth from what they are doing that they feel threatened and antagonized by anyone that's not in their group. Optimizers are the ones that most directly affect the fun of others. We've all been kicked from a pug group or openly mocked by a 15 year old whose claim to world-class status is derived from slavishly copying someone's build guide and rotation. We're supposed to learn that's more about what's going on with them, right?

Point is, there's plenty of room for success in playing however you want to play. Just do that. Requesting free bonus damage because other people are working harder is just clouding the issue... and the issue seems to be that ZOS is ham-handedly trying to get the elites to agree to a nerf and the elites are trying to turn that into a buff to sustain, which will only just add to their damage done. The thing ZOS is missing here is that no matter what they try to do in order to tone down the highest level players, those guys will always find a way to squeeze every drop of dps out of the game and there will always be everyone else that isn't willing to put that much into that extra 1%. Nerfs will always just anger those that pay the bills, and that's never the smart move.

Personally, I feel like ZOS should just accept that the skill/effort gap exists and focus their efforts on other, more important things. Fixing server performance, for instance, would be that rising tide that raises all the boats. Taking a hard look at each role on each class to make sure player choices in these regards are as rewarding and impactful as possible would be another area that, if accomplished intelligently, could make a lot of players happy and serve as a draw for new players. Building high-profile activities that show off just how powerful our most competitive players can be could bring in some E-Sports money and attention... There's all kinds of things that could be done that aren't the nerfing and pseudo "balancing" that is NEVER a net positive for ANY game.

Rungar

could get rid of light and heavy attacks altogether and use that slot as a primary attack slot which you can slot "spammable skills" and a 15% cost reduction to whatever you slot there. Whatever sets used to affect light and heavy attacks now affect whatever is in that slot.

then they can add a bunch of new spam-ables with all kinds of interesting effects so players will have a lot of choices. Bash would be one of those spam-able skills as well.

end the tyranny of the free attack forever.

aetherial_heavenn

John_Falstaff wrote: »

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I like that idea! Buffing a spammable to compensate for lost LA damage means that we maintain the current power levels for players who do LA-weaves. Essentially, it would be shifting damage from the LA to the spammable.

But for players who miss light attacks and thus only get their spammable off, they'll be better off than they were on Live. Still not as good as someone who gets the weave, of course, but it would close the power gap somewhat.

As a general rule I think moving damage away from LA/HA into class skills/spammables is a net benefit for ESO. One complaint you constantly hear is the death of class identity and how weapon skills are too dominant in a lot of cases/scenarios. Transitioning power away from the "we all share this" to class skills could break things for a minute, but if it was balanced properly and carefully, could create a much more overall enjoyable game.

This is what I would prefer as a middle ground player who would like to get better but has physical limitations. (ESO skews older than twitchy point and shooters, so arthritis or just RSI can be an issue for quite a few players atm. Poor LA weaving can be simply caused by a physical barrier to getting better. It just plain hurts) Lag is the other impediment to perfect weaving.

Adjusting the spammables, and being able to balance resources with each type of attack makes sense (if resource regen has to be attached to the weapon). Making each class have a good spammable that is also the class identifier /main class skill appeals strongly.

Thanks for well thought out posts and ideas, both of you.

People with less fine motor control already have found their occupation in ESO, and that's leaning towards being tanks and healers. And here's the thing, they're in for a surprise: as tanks, they now will have to weave LAs to gain resources, and they also have to block-cancel LAs if they don't want to be one-shot. So poor LA weavers who so far enjoyed being tanks will suddenly find out that they, instead of simply block-casting skills and opening up for 0.8s when they see an opportunity for HA, will have to weave and block cancel their LAs if they want to keep getting resources. So much about reducing the gap - because of those changes, a huge gap was created where there was none before.

This is my concern. I play healers for this reason. I can practice LA weaving until it hurts but I won't get good enough to do the content I enjoy whereas I can participate as a healer. Thanks for pointing this out.

The resource regen from LAs had worried me but builds and careful class skill use could compensate on my healer. Tanks are going to be stuffed if ZoS changes go ahead I suspect. I am surprised there isn't more blow back from them.

Code's suggestion of resource restore from all types of attacks solves this issue too. Without redesigning a whole role from scratch.

JohnOfMarkarth

Preechr wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

My approach effects my APM because to do any meaningful damage I have to...:
- drink a potion (and remember to do it then go outta my way to use it, interrupting action line, thus the feel of action (seems minor and this one is minor too but wait. The small specs are what make a snowball))
- weave a light attack to regain resources (another spec on the snowball)
- fire a setup skill
- WeAvE (+snowball size)
- fire a dot (acceptable)*
- wEaVe (+snowball size)
- fire a second dot (kinda acceptable but slight addition to snowball)*
- WeEeEe!ave (+that snowball is bigger then my head now)
- keep them in mind rather then the abilities that actually are more intuitive for me (in this moment that snowball outweights me (am 76kg, it isnt that hard)
- do something fun once (finally...) and then repeat the cycle

While I agree that the mechanics of a top level dps rotation are fairly unimmersive to say the least, you don't have to submit to doing them... and you don't, as you say. There are plenty of solo builds on youtube, mostly from Hack the Minotaur, that can illustrate good jumping-off points for making whatever you want to do work, without anyone's help, to take on world bosses or run dungeons. Solo.

What that says is that once you get your end game gear going and spend a little time thinking through how your skills work, the attacks you will be making will feel plenty impactful regardless if you are min-maxed for trials or not. Some work and practice will make you welcome in a lot of groups that aren't in the top-end elite category.

Like it or not, and I'm not a big fan either, there will always be a subsection of players in any game that would probably be happier playing dance dance revolution on a spreadsheet, focusing on bleeding-edge optimization in order to turn every part of an otherwise fun role-playing experience into angsty speedruns. There are plenty of others that get joy from ignoring the rich and fascinating fantasy setting and log in every day just to flip items on the market, others who spend all their time trying to score cheap goods off noobs that don't know what stuff is worth, and even more than a few that just love more than anything to mindlessly grind the same things over and over. Oh, and then there are always the trolls. Oh, and the zone-chatters...

Unfortunately, among each of these groups there are a few members that get so much of their sense of self-worth from what they are doing that they feel threatened and antagonized by anyone that's not in their group. Optimizers are the ones that most directly affect the fun of others. We've all been kicked from a pug group or openly mocked by a 15 year old whose claim to world-class status is derived from slavishly copying someone's build guide and rotation. We're supposed to learn that's more about what's going on with them, right?

Point is, there's plenty of room for success in playing however you want to play. Just do that. Requesting free bonus damage because other people are working harder is just clouding the issue... and the issue seems to be that ZOS is ham-handedly trying to get the elites to agree to a nerf and the elites are trying to turn that into a buff to sustain, which will only just add to their damage done. The thing ZOS is missing here is that no matter what they try to do in order to tone down the highest level players, those guys will always find a way to squeeze every drop of dps out of the game and there will always be everyone else that isn't willing to put that much into that extra 1%. Nerfs will always just anger those that pay the bills, and that's never the smart move.

Personally, I feel like ZOS should just accept that the skill/effort gap exists and focus their efforts on other, more important things. Fixing server performance, for instance, would be that rising tide that raises all the boats. Taking a hard look at each role on each class to make sure player choices in these regards are as rewarding and impactful as possible would be another area that, if accomplished intelligently, could make a lot of players happy and serve as a draw for new players. Building high-profile activities that show off just how powerful our most competitive players can be could bring in some E-Sports money and attention... There's all kinds of things that could be done that aren't the nerfing and pseudo "balancing" that is NEVER a net positive for ANY game.

I dont disagree with ya... mostly. But. I think that if they are tryin to toss us a bone. Why do they toss us a bone of a poisonous frog. If they wanna toss us a bone... toss us a bone that has at least some semblance of meat on it... and wont kill us

(also on a side note. people who pay the bills a hell's ton, are those who buy the most... and vets arent as much this, as are the weird niche group called "roleplayers"... cus, most people have eso+ (and that + expansions is all a vet player needs really.) But that 'weird' group of people often spend unimaginable amounts of shekels on things that a normal vet pvp/pve-er would not ever do. --- Not to mention that ESO combat probably isnt the "go to" attraction of the game that increases player base, not really...)

Ajaks

If it's not broken don't fix it. And if it is broken, don't decompose it further. That's how they treated DoTs last year. One would say that after 5 years of development at least the basic parameters of the combat system should be clear...

Elsonso

Ajaks wrote: »

If it's not broken don't fix it. And if it is broken, don't decompose it further. That's how they treated DoTs last year. One would say that after 5 years of development at least the basic parameters of the combat system should be clear...

That's just it. This is not the same game as it was 6 years ago. Players are playing the game differently. Right or wrong is subjective, but ZOS has been changing the combat constantly in response to that. What was clear in 2014 may not the same as what is clear today.

Preechr

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

--- Not to mention that ESO combat probably isnt the "go to" attraction of the game that increases player base, not really...)

That's true. There have been other games with far better combat systems, and there will always be players that despise action combat. MMO shoppers aren't necessarily looking for the best new thing anymore, though. If you could say: "They fixed their server performance issues, class and race choice really matters and they all feel distinct and important, and the developers aren't constantly nerfing stuff, forcing people to change their builds and grind new gear, all in the never-ending chase of 'balance,'" that might go pretty far.

All MMOs are forcing their players into boxes and then moving the boxes around and have been for years. Players are tired of it. ESO already has a lot going for it, and would be better off if they capitalized on that rather than doing what all the other studios are doing with their games.

Start with spears. We need spears.

After that, take a closer look at the rest of the weapon skills. Fighting a guy that shoots 150 arrows up in the sky, magically produces a ballista auto-turret then starts whirlwinding at me with his daggers is honestly pretty silly. That's not what a rogue class is supposed to be doing... Its really hard to take developers seriously when they come up with suggestions on making the game more intuitive with micro nerfs to emergent gameplay while so many of their main fighting skills look like they were designed by a third grader who forgot to take his ritalin.

Troodon80

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

Tanks are going to be stuffed if ZoS changes go ahead I suspect. I am surprised there isn't more blow back from them.

The vast majority of testing has come from a DPS-centric perspective, and the changes are aimed primarily at DDs. I doubt many tanks have even bothered trying out the changes. The few that have so far, and are willing to take the time to post on the forum, myself included, have stated that sustain is much worse. There is very little discussion on this point and it would be nice if there was more.

As I said in a previous post, this will widen the skill gap between floor and ceiling for support roles, directly contradicting their stated goals of lowering the skill gap. With the current implementation on the PTS, even if you assume this will close the gap for DDs (disregarding bash weaving), all it does it push this gap elsewhere without actually fixing the core issue as to why there is a skill gap at all. If we don't disregard bash weaving, I don't believe much will change with regards to the skill gap -- regardless of how much or how little it changes, low DPS players are still going to be doing low DPS and high DPS players are still going to be leaps and bounds ahead, and, on top of this, we will see an increase in the skill gap to supports. No matter what happens in terms of the skill gap for DPS, supports are still getting hit negatively. I don't believe that trying to "fix" one thing necessarily needs to come at the expense of other roles or even other modes of play beyond DPS.

This is also why I believe Code's suggestion is much better for all involved. It leaves tanks and healers with a source of sustain that they are used to. If they light weave (and there's no reason not to try), they will have marginally better sustain (especially useful for the lower end who often perma-block and will spam skills, quickly depleting their resources; this can be a first-step lesson for them to drop block in order to use a skill->light attack, and understand better the mechanics of when they need to block and when they don't need to block), while also following through with the initial idea for what ZOS perceives as an unacceptable skill gap in DPS due to sustain and damage from light attack weaving. Further adjustments and tweaks can be made down the line without the need to bring a sledgehammer in.