Class Identity: 5 Points

Helgarth

newtinmpls wrote: »

I want no classes and just "skill lines" or maybe just "skills"

Then remove the passives from races.

MMO before being a TES 😁

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

Cinbri

As Templar my main question regarding fantasy powers is why Templars that use "Light" as source of their powers are not best in slot in fight against vampires while moderate knights with fire infernal abilities, i.e. dragonknights are best in this role. Maybe its is time to change what labeled in tooltip of "holy fire" to be some kind of unique damage source effects, like you know most dk skills is fire-based and cause burning, sorcs skills are lightning-based and can cause vulnerability, warden is frost-based causing chilled.

Xvorg

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

As much as I'd loved that solution, I'm sure the forum would have been filled with complaints about DKs reflecting attacks over 20 mts just because of lag.

Though it was a great idea

Gnortranermara

Cinbri wrote: »

As Templar my main question regarding fantasy powers is why Templars that use "Light" as source of their powers are not best in slot in fight against vampires while moderate knights with fire infernal abilities, i.e. dragonknights are best in this role. Maybe its is time to change what labeled in tooltip of "holy fire" to be some kind of unique damage source effects, like you know most dk skills is fire-based and cause burning, sorcs skills are lightning-based and can cause vulnerability, warden is frost-based causing chilled.

Skyrim's Dawnguard expansion introduced Sun Damage. Let's hope Greymoor does the same for ESO.

Lord-Otto

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

As Templar my main question regarding fantasy powers is why Templars that use "Light" as source of their powers are not best in slot in fight against vampires while moderate knights with fire infernal abilities, i.e. dragonknights are best in this role. Maybe its is time to change what labeled in tooltip of "holy fire" to be some kind of unique damage source effects, like you know most dk skills is fire-based and cause burning, sorcs skills are lightning-based and can cause vulnerability, warden is frost-based causing chilled.

Skyrim's Dawnguard expansion introduced Sun Damage. Let's hope Greymoor does the same for ESO.

Sun damage only works on undead. So, do you really wanna slot a skill which does good damage against vampires and bad against everyone else? There used to be skills like that in ESO, Fighter's Guild skills like the crossbow or Camo Hunter. No one used them in that state back then.

Cinbri

Lord-Otto wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

As Templar my main question regarding fantasy powers is why Templars that use "Light" as source of their powers are not best in slot in fight against vampires while moderate knights with fire infernal abilities, i.e. dragonknights are best in this role. Maybe its is time to change what labeled in tooltip of "holy fire" to be some kind of unique damage source effects, like you know most dk skills is fire-based and cause burning, sorcs skills are lightning-based and can cause vulnerability, warden is frost-based causing chilled.

Skyrim's Dawnguard expansion introduced Sun Damage. Let's hope Greymoor does the same for ESO.

Sun damage only works on undead. So, do you really wanna slot a skill which does good damage against vampires and bad against everyone else? There used to be skills like that in ESO, Fighter's Guild skills like the crossbow or Camo Hunter. No one used them in that state back then.

Ye, but Enhancements with Sun Damage in Dawnguard deal damage to any target and increased damage to undead. Ironically that Sun Fire-> Vampire Bane is exact name of Sun Damage skill from Dawnguard and is only skill in templar arsenal of holy magic that works that way as it just Fire Damage skill and thus deal damage to any target and even more damage to vampires with their vulnerability to fire.
So in ESO having weird situation: as ordinary Fire damage works as Sun Damage in latest TES games while original Sun Damage from earlier TES games that deal damage to undeads only no matter what, existing in ESO in form of Prismatic Enchancement that only deadra-undead.
And both of those sources that imitating Sun Damage are still doing nothing for "holy knights and priests with aedric magic" of ESO that is especially weird given that Orb of Magnus Memento from next Chapter showing how Aedric Light burning undead.
P.S.: There is even the set "Silks of the Sun" that boosting Fire damage, that is like direct acceptance of Fire=Sun.

Lord-Otto

Cinbri wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

As Templar my main question regarding fantasy powers is why Templars that use "Light" as source of their powers are not best in slot in fight against vampires while moderate knights with fire infernal abilities, i.e. dragonknights are best in this role. Maybe its is time to change what labeled in tooltip of "holy fire" to be some kind of unique damage source effects, like you know most dk skills is fire-based and cause burning, sorcs skills are lightning-based and can cause vulnerability, warden is frost-based causing chilled.

Skyrim's Dawnguard expansion introduced Sun Damage. Let's hope Greymoor does the same for ESO.

Sun damage only works on undead. So, do you really wanna slot a skill which does good damage against vampires and bad against everyone else? There used to be skills like that in ESO, Fighter's Guild skills like the crossbow or Camo Hunter. No one used them in that state back then.

Ye, but Enhancements with Sun Damage in Dawnguard deal damage to any target and increased damage to undead. Ironically that Sun Fire-> Vampire Bane is exact name of Sun Damage skill from Dawnguard and is only skill in templar arsenal of holy magic that works that way as it just Fire Damage skill and thus deal damage to any target and even more damage to vampires with their vulnerability to fire.
So in ESO having weird situation: as ordinary Fire damage works as Sun Damage in latest TES games while original Sun Damage from earlier TES games that deal damage to undeads only no matter what, existing in ESO in form of Prismatic Enchancement that only deadra-undead.
And both of those sources that imitating Sun Damage are still doing nothing for "holy knights and priests with aedric magic" of ESO that is especially weird given that Orb of Magnus Memento from next Chapter showing how Aedric Light burning undead.
P.S.: There is even the set "Silks of the Sun" that boosting Fire damage, that is like direct acceptance of Fire=Sun.

I don't think ESO's fire skills are a translation of sun damage. Rather, they are an inferior version of Skyrim's real sun damage. The Ayleids believed fire to be an inferior form if light, so there's a possible lore explanation.

Gnortranermara

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Sun damage only works on undead. So, do you really wanna slot a skill which does good damage against vampires and bad against everyone else? There used to be skills like that in ESO, Fighter's Guild skills like the crossbow or Camo Hunter. No one used them in that state back then.

I don't know where you get the notion that anybody is calling for an exact copy/paste job. Obviously the effect would be tweaked to suit the game, like literally everything else ported into ESO from prior TES games. A small amount of bonus damage to undead would be appropriate for flavor, but nobody is asking for undead-only abilities.

Here are some obvious options for secondary effects:

1. Blind status effect - 5% miss chance
2. Burn status effect - Or a Sun Damage variation of it.

Shuffling some Templar passives around would make it suit the holy light theme:
Move Burning Light to Dawn's Wrath, and make the proc based on Burn instead of Spear abilities.
Move Restoring Spirit to Restoring Light.
Move Light Weaver to Aedric Spear and make it grant Empower after casting an Aedric Spear ability.
Change Solar Barrage's buff from Empower to Heroism or Berserk or something.

3. Totally new minor debuff

Best option: The Healing Mage aka Mending set has a unique debuff that is the opposite of Major Courage. This debuff could be named Major Lethargy (a symptom of sun stroke) for -258 WD/SD. Minor Lethargy (-129 WD/SD) could then be used as the secondary effect for Sun Damage.

There's a dozen other ways to do it. I'm pretty sure every single person asking for Sun Damage is assuming the devs would come up with something other than a straight copy/paste job.

BennyButton

I also stopped playing ESO because they let someone who has mostly PvP experience become in charge of ALL COMBAT changes and he has ruined everything and it all started with orbs.

Xvorg

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Sun damage only works on undead. So, do you really wanna slot a skill which does good damage against vampires and bad against everyone else? There used to be skills like that in ESO, Fighter's Guild skills like the crossbow or Camo Hunter. No one used them in that state back then.

I don't know where you get the notion that anybody is calling for an exact copy/paste job. Obviously the effect would be tweaked to suit the game, like literally everything else ported into ESO from prior TES games. A small amount of bonus damage to undead would be appropriate for flavor, but nobody is asking for undead-only abilities.

Here are some obvious options for secondary effects:

1. Blind status effect - 5% miss chance
2. Burn status effect - Or a Sun Damage variation of it.

Shuffling some Templar passives around would make it suit the holy light theme:
Move Burning Light to Dawn's Wrath, and make the proc based on Burn instead of Spear abilities.
Move Restoring Spirit to Restoring Light.
Move Light Weaver to Aedric Spear and make it grant Empower after casting an Aedric Spear ability.
Change Solar Barrage's buff from Empower to Heroism or Berserk or something.

3. Totally new minor debuff

Best option: The Healing Mage aka Mending set has a unique debuff that is the opposite of Major Courage. This debuff could be named Major Lethargy (a symptom of sun stroke) for -258 WD/SD. Minor Lethargy (-129 WD/SD) could then be used as the secondary effect for Sun Damage.

There's a dozen other ways to do it. I'm pretty sure every single person asking for Sun Damage is assuming the devs would come up with something other than a straight copy/paste job.

They can barely balance Oblivion dmg and bleeds, now you want to include a new dmg type...

Anytime they add something which is new, they *** it up...

Gnortranermara

Xvorg wrote: »

They can barely balance Oblivion dmg and bleeds, now you want to include a new dmg type...

Anytime they add something which is new, they *** it up...

There's nothing complicated about adding an element type, and the difficulty of balancing it is not remotely comparable to Oblivion or Bleeds. It's clearly more analogous to Flame Damage.

Templar has an entire skill line of Sun-themed abilities that deal basic Magic Damage, with no secondary effects. One oddball skill does Flame Damage, but not the others. It's a glaring omission, a half-finished job. Greymoor is the perfect time to remedy this. It's a tailor-made opportunity to introduce Sun Damage, for both a Dawnguard guild line and most Dawn's Wrath abilities. Frankly, Greymoor will be a huge disappointment if the dark/gothic vampire theme doesn't have an interesting counter-balance, and this seems like the most obvious and significant contrast they could introduce. It would be a major improvement for class identity and power fantasy.

SickleCider

This is how I play the game:

Buff
Unstable Wall
Light Attack
Crushing Shock
Light Attack
Crushing Shock
Light Attack
Crushing Shock
Heavy Attack
Crushing Shock
Light Attack

Repeat

I can't wait to replace some of those light attacks with more heavies!

Cries in magsorc

Lord-Otto

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

They can barely balance Oblivion dmg and bleeds, now you want to include a new dmg type...

Anytime they add something which is new, they *** it up...

There's nothing complicated about adding an element type, and the difficulty of balancing it is not remotely comparable to Oblivion or Bleeds. It's clearly more analogous to Flame Damage.

Templar has an entire skill line of Sun-themed abilities that deal basic Magic Damage, with no secondary effects. One oddball skill does Flame Damage, but not the others. It's a glaring omission, a half-finished job. Greymoor is the perfect time to remedy this. It's a tailor-made opportunity to introduce Sun Damage, for both a Dawnguard guild line and most Dawn's Wrath abilities. Frankly, Greymoor will be a huge disappointment if the dark/gothic vampire theme doesn't have an interesting counter-balance, and this seems like the most obvious and significant contrast they could introduce. It would be a major improvement for class identity and power fantasy.

So, would you give up some damage against non-vamps to get more damage against vampires?

justaquickword

Devs are on a hiding to nothing whatever they do.
The ONLY thing they usually do wrong is to listen to the players who shout the loudest on this forum far too much.
Maybe if they asked you lot for opinons less and told you what was going to happen instead, you wouldn't see the wild fluctuations in gameplay you've seen recently.
I'd suggest certain people on this forum take a look in the mirror if they are looking for someone to blame.

✌️

Gnortranermara

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, would you give up some damage against non-vamps to get more damage against vampires?

No. That wouldn't be necessary. If they did it: For PvE, mobs have elemental weaknesses (or at least they used to). Giving all undead 0 resistance to Sun Damage doesn't require sacrificing damage against other targets. For PvP, the weakness would be placed in the vampire's passives (just like Flame is currently). Again, that wouldn't reduce Sun Damage's effectiveness against non-vampire targets. There's literally no reason to change its cost:damage relative to other elements. This isn't as complicated as you're trying to make it sound.

Lord-Otto

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, would you give up some damage against non-vamps to get more damage against vampires?

No. That wouldn't be necessary. If they did it: For PvE, mobs have elemental weaknesses (or at least they used to). Giving all undead 0 resistance to Sun Damage doesn't require sacrificing damage against other targets. For PvP, the weakness would be placed in the vampire's passives (just like Flame is currently). Again, that wouldn't reduce Sun Damage's effectiveness against non-vampire targets. There's literally no reason to change its cost:damage relative to other elements. This isn't as complicated as you're trying to make it sound.

It is. Basically, you're stealthily asking for templars to get supercharged against vampires with no trade-off. You wanna have the cake and eat it. Ain't happening. Templars are the last class in need of a buff right now.
Sun damage as an elemental type is not needed role-play-wise. Vampires used to be resistant to normal physical weapons, that's also not in the game. It is among the things that just have to be cut for the sake of an MMO.

Vampires right now are already balanced to not be a clear upgrade to mortal characters. Making them super powerful but with hard counters is bad. It would force you to be vamp and have anti-vamp tools, severely limiting build choices at best and trashing your class at worst. We've seen that with previous incarnations of vampires and Dawnbreaker. This is how your idea would go, and it's not good.
Magicka dragonknights aren't 100% balanced against vampires right now, but this has more to do with the circumstances. They do not have an execute and apply damage rarely with burst, but DoT pressure, which is heavily mitigated by the Undeath passive. That's the balancing. Certain DK skills or weapon/guild skills hit really hard nevertheless, and this would be much less of an issue if vampires would feed in Cyrodiil to mitigate a bit more of the fire damage. But since feeding is a hassle, vampires typically want the passives and Dawnbreaker nukes regardless of stage, they typically stay in stage three or four. This may change with the re-vamp in Greymoor.

That being said, I'm expecting ZOS to keep an eye on anti-vamp tools. They won't just throw a super OP vampire lord at the game without it having clear weaknesses. But I can't see them just giving a single class +300% damage against vamps on everything and calling it a day.

Gnortranermara

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Basically, you're stealthily asking for templars to get supercharged against vampires with no trade-off....

But I can't see them just giving a single class +300% damage against vamps on everything and calling it a day.

I'm very obviously not saying that. Literally nobody has asked for 300% bonus damage. Nobody. This should be 100% perfectly clear to any reasonable person. Like I said:

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I don't know where you get the notion that anybody is calling for an exact copy/paste job. Obviously the effect would be tweaked to suit the game, like literally everything else ported into ESO from prior TES games. A small amount of bonus damage to undead would be appropriate for flavor, but nobody is asking for undead-only abilities.

Your objections have nothing to do with the actual idea, but your own made-up, biased distortions of it. If you don't like it, just say you don't like it. Stop inventing absurd strawman to beat up. It's very obvious that what you're arguing against exists only in your own imagination. That's not the way anyone has suggested for Sun Damage to be implemented.

Sayaka

I agree with you in every part. Especially the classes. They have no importance. Just close your eyes and randomly pick one class. The only difference will be the animation. Thats it. Im really disappointed in new generation MMOs. I was so hyped for ESO. But... i dont want to play it anymore because of this. There is no diversity, no creativity in making characters. Oh and for some reason, new generation mmos have this issue: dps.

For some reason every mmo currently is full focused on dps. Just take what improves damage, leave the rest. Games and dungeons used to be much more than "dps" before. It was real teamwork, it was real fun. Everyone had their unique jobs and abilities they had to use. Now its just focus on dps. Healing, tanking, supporting... they have no importance anymore. The only difference between a tank and a healer nowadays is one heals instead of taunting the enemy. And all the good mmos are gone now.

I expected some TES:V level creativity and diversity.

YandereGirlfriend

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Vampires right now are already balanced to not be a clear upgrade to mortal characters.

In PvE, this is definitely not true. Being a vampire confers zero downside and only upside, it is a definite upgrade over being mortal.

PvP is perhaps slightly more nuanced but there are still a LOT of vampires running around because their only real nemesis is magDKs and there is not an overabundance of them running around at the moment.

All of that is an aside though to the fact that I would love to see elemental weaknesses and strengths for PvE mobs and, as such, certain dungeons would confer advantages or disadvantages to certain classes depending upon your elemental specialization.

It might also help to mitigate somewhat the dominance of Flame damage if you had bosses with 50% Flame resist and a weakness to Frost damage, etc.

Not to mention that it would feel infinitely more "RPG" than simply meting out damage and having it all count the same against HP.

Derra

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

As much as I'd loved that solution, I'm sure the forum would have been filled with complaints about DKs reflecting attacks over 20 mts just because of lag.

Though it was a great idea

Probably yes - but my post was more directed at the general sentiment of imbalance and advantages in combat.

I´m all for having classes with defining abilities that offer them an edge over everyone else in certain combat situations - but i absolutely oppose absolute hardcounters.

Feizao

Derra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

As much as I'd loved that solution, I'm sure the forum would have been filled with complaints about DKs reflecting attacks over 20 mts just because of lag.

Though it was a great idea

Probably yes - but my post was more directed at the general sentiment of imbalance and advantages in combat.

I´m all for having classes with defining abilities that offer them an edge over everyone else in certain combat situations - but i absolutely oppose absolute hardcounters.

I agree with the direction of your thinking. I felt useless fighting a DK with wings as a magblade. Most all attacks would get reflected as I couldn't even light attack with destro staff. Also testing (if i remember correctly) using swallow soul not only reflected damage to me, but also gave DK the HoT.
Because of wings i've adjusted my build to mainly use dual wields and concealed weap/sap essence as my offensive skill to this day. (currently slotted fire staff back b/c of stun removal from vamp drain)

burglar

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, and think that greater differentiation and greater identity between classes helps to make the game more rewarding, and more interesting. I appreciate you considering perspectives of abilities outside of your own main class, because you raise some good points, which in turn did a good job supporting your overall argument. I disagree with your perspective on PvP, for the most part, though.

Xvorg

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Basically, you're stealthily asking for templars to get supercharged against vampires with no trade-off....

But I can't see them just giving a single class +300% damage against vamps on everything and calling it a day.

I'm very obviously not saying that. Literally nobody has asked for 300% bonus damage. Nobody. This should be 100% perfectly clear to any reasonable person. Like I said:

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

I don't know where you get the notion that anybody is calling for an exact copy/paste job. Obviously the effect would be tweaked to suit the game, like literally everything else ported into ESO from prior TES games. A small amount of bonus damage to undead would be appropriate for flavor, but nobody is asking for undead-only abilities.

Your objections have nothing to do with the actual idea, but your own made-up, biased distortions of it. If you don't like it, just say you don't like it. Stop inventing absurd strawman to beat up. It's very obvious that what you're arguing against exists only in your own imagination. That's not the way anyone has suggested for Sun Damage to be implemented.

It is not bias, it is just experience.

1 shooting vamps with camo hunter was fun, but unfair... I don't think that will ever happen again

Xvorg

Feizao wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

As much as I'd loved that solution, I'm sure the forum would have been filled with complaints about DKs reflecting attacks over 20 mts just because of lag.

Though it was a great idea

Probably yes - but my post was more directed at the general sentiment of imbalance and advantages in combat.

I´m all for having classes with defining abilities that offer them an edge over everyone else in certain combat situations - but i absolutely oppose absolute hardcounters.

I agree with the direction of your thinking. I felt useless fighting a DK with wings as a magblade. Most all attacks would get reflected as I couldn't even light attack with destro staff. Also testing (if i remember correctly) using swallow soul not only reflected damage to me, but also gave DK the HoT.
Because of wings i've adjusted my build to mainly use dual wields and concealed weap/sap essence as my offensive skill to this day. (currently slotted fire staff back b/c of stun removal from vamp drain)

Most DKs agreed to let strife go through wings, that would have been a good solution.

Problem is that the nerf to wings *** both, DKs and NBs. Neither the DK can use the skill efficiently to go against a ranged assassin, nor the NB can efficiently do dmg and heal himself while spending their magicka. At the end is an attrition race, the one who depletes his magicka first loses...

Boring

Toc de Malsvi

Xvorg wrote: »

Feizao wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But, if you give DK their Reflective Scales back, it’s too overbearing to my ranged magicka player!

Too bad. Yeah, I said it. Too bad. In order to have meaningful character (let alone class) identity, there must be situations in which your class excels and situations your class struggles. If you are finding those pesky DKs so troublesome, why don’t you play the way Cyrodiil was meant to be played and find a buddy, a small group, or a raid so your strengths and weaknesses can be complimented by those of your allies?

@Joy_Division As much as i agree with everything said - i fundamentally disagree with this statement.

I´m a firm believer that actual hardcounter abilities to playstyles that can be kept up permanently are bad game design and actually not fun to have in a game EVER (i have no issues with hardcounters on ultimates - like shield ulti - because that´s part of what ultimates should do).
I do however agree the wings nerf was idiotic - in that it not only achieved anything meaningful regarding their impact vs a single ranged combatants - but also became so mediocre in situations where it was previously needed that it´s no longer used widely at all.

What ZOS imo should have done would have been finding a way to keep the core functionality of the ability while removing the 100% guaranteed hardcounter aspect of it.
Give it a minimum range for the reflect to work of 8m.
This would keep the core identity of the skill. It would punish ranged spammers from the safety of allied backlines. It would also force kiting builds into the DKs range in a 1v1 scenario - where it is advantaged by it´s class design (see mage vs barbarian reference - contrary to what ppl seem to believe a sorc or nb would 100% not want to be in melee combat with a dk).
It would however not create a situation that is flatout unwinable and got only resolved by the ranged players running away from the fight (because that is what mostly happened back then).

I believe solutions like these could have been and can be found for virtually any perceived overperforming/hardcounter combat mechanic - keeping the core functionality but adding specific ways to circumvent them for opponents instead of flatout breaking abilities entirely.

As much as I'd loved that solution, I'm sure the forum would have been filled with complaints about DKs reflecting attacks over 20 mts just because of lag.

Though it was a great idea

Probably yes - but my post was more directed at the general sentiment of imbalance and advantages in combat.

I´m all for having classes with defining abilities that offer them an edge over everyone else in certain combat situations - but i absolutely oppose absolute hardcounters.

I agree with the direction of your thinking. I felt useless fighting a DK with wings as a magblade. Most all attacks would get reflected as I couldn't even light attack with destro staff. Also testing (if i remember correctly) using swallow soul not only reflected damage to me, but also gave DK the HoT.
Because of wings i've adjusted my build to mainly use dual wields and concealed weap/sap essence as my offensive skill to this day. (currently slotted fire staff back b/c of stun removal from vamp drain)

Most DKs agreed to let strife go through wings, that would have been a good solution.

Problem is that the nerf to wings *** both, DKs and NBs. Neither the DK can use the skill efficiently to go against a ranged assassin, nor the NB can efficiently do dmg and heal himself while spending their magicka. At the end is an attrition race, the one who depletes his magicka first loses...

Boring

The big key and problem with the chosen iteration to balance for Wings. Is that it’s just not a fun mechanic anymore. It’s useful but not fun.

Balancing things is difficult, but a game should never lose sight of the fact that people are playing it to have fun.

Wings were fun for the user and not fun for the person used against. Even OP in certain circumstances. Now Wings is not fun for either the user or the person used against. It’s a boring utility skill slotted/unslotted as the need requires.

But I don’t think fixing Wings will fix all the problems with the game as it is.

Kelces

I think all this development was about creating more incentive (or force people), using new skill lines the company put out there. Mission accomplished I guess...

Chevaliemew

Well, at the end of day there could be no class changes at all since 1.5 and game still would be succesful. It's basically a guarantee that it would even surpass the current state. Let's face it once and for all. The actual changes that attracted playerbase:
- Dark Brotherhood (removing veteran ranks),
- One Tamriel (providing ability to interact with friends from other alliances),
- Morrowind (nostalgia for Elder Scrolls die hard fans).

Greymoor will work only because it's all about Skyrim and people love Skyrim. But as mentioned before all of that could be accomplished without a major changes to class related skills.

Moose_Scout

Though I disagree with your PVP bashing, I agree that class skills should be unique, powerful, and fun.

Soris

Oh tell me about blazing shield and blinding flashes!