GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
"People like you are the reason why ZOS has gotten rid of so many unique and interesting mechanics in the game which gave every class their identity."
That's a bold, inaccurate statement. Check out the original class rep Dragonknight thread... you know, the one designed to give us players the platform to list 2 pain points. You'll see my post on the first page, and you'll see that I used one of my two available pain points to advocate for DK escapability. That was in May 2018. So don't even try using the examples of sorc streak/nb permacloak against me. I've wanted DK mobility/escapability for a long time, and when the opportunity rose where we might have a chance to actually be heard, I used one of my two bullets in the DK thread to advocate for it. No one listened.
Clearly, "people like [me]" aren't the problem.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Actually consider the example I was referring to when you run it through a "fun and entertaining" checker. @Alcast posted a video of a regular slottable skill (one that can be activated at any time) completely mitigating the damage of as well as reversing the damage of an ultimate skill (one that has to be built up to use and by design is stronger than other skills).
Fun and entertaining is great, but you also have to consider the experience of the player on the other side of that combat instance. Their ultimate was not only useless against the opponent, but also harmful to them -- all because a player could use an easily slottable, readily available skill (wings) that effectively allowed them to use 2 ultimate skills at once against the other player (the reflected meteor and the leap). How fun and entertaining is it for the player who cast the meteor?
That example truly is a balance concern, and anyone with enough experience with how the game operates and plays can recognize it as such if they look at everything that happens in that video objectively. Hence why I called it an "extreme" example.
It's also a bummer that someone with the platform and potential influence of @Alcast basically calls the wings/meteor interaction from the video a L2P issue. He didn't recognize any sort of imbalance in the video and simply says, "But learning something so simple had to be nerfed!"
Again, I see that as a bummer. I would hope that someone who ZOS has, in the past, given their ears to (whether they listen or not) would have better recognition of L2P and balance. This example was just too extreme, which is why I said I understood the gist of what he was saying, but wanted to point out that it was extreme.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
"People like you are the reason why ZOS has gotten rid of so many unique and interesting mechanics in the game which gave every class their identity."
That's a bold, inaccurate statement. Check out the original class rep Dragonknight thread... you know, the one designed to give us players the platform to list 2 pain points. You'll see my post on the first page, and you'll see that I used one of my two available pain points to advocate for DK escapability. That was in May 2018. So don't even try using the examples of sorc streak/nb permacloak against me. I've wanted DK mobility/escapability for a long time, and when the opportunity rose where we might have a chance to actually be heard, I used one of my two bullets in the DK thread to advocate for it. No one listened.
Clearly, "people like [me]" aren't the problem.
PhoenixGrey wrote: »
You want DK's to escape a fight ? We already have sorc and nightblade. DK's are supposed to be able to stand their ground and be hard to zerg down.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
"People like you are the reason why ZOS has gotten rid of so many unique and interesting mechanics in the game which gave every class their identity."
That's a bold, inaccurate statement. Check out the original class rep Dragonknight thread... you know, the one designed to give us players the platform to list 2 pain points. You'll see my post on the first page, and you'll see that I used one of my two available pain points to advocate for DK escapability. That was in May 2018. So don't even try using the examples of sorc streak/nb permacloak against me. I've wanted DK mobility/escapability for a long time, and when the opportunity rose where we might have a chance to actually be heard, I used one of my two bullets in the DK thread to advocate for it. No one listened.
Clearly, "people like [me]" aren't the problem.
"GrumpyDuckling wrote:
Definition of Intelligence:
the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intelligence
Quotes from @Joy_Division :
"The other player is at maximum range, did not even try to engage Alcast in a meaningful way, and got hit with a 13.8K Take Flight which means they have either zero concept or care for self-preservation."
"They chose to unthinkingly launch a meteor at a player who was at maximum range, had no strategy that entailed following up the ultimate, and did so without any consideration for the target's defensive capabilities. This is about as baseline brainless as you can get..."
"Why couldn't the PuG use a minutia of brainpower to target someone else?"
Nah, you're absolutely right, you in no way provided commentary on the player's intelligence...
You can only get 2 of these. Choose wisely!
1.Strong and unique class skills/abilities
2.Decent balance between classes
3.Continue to get more powerful and get more content/stuff
Joy_Division wrote: »
All of those quotes are in direct reference to the strategy they are using or their build. The terrible tactics in that video need to be clearly called out because bad strategy or just poor gameplay should not be used as an example of how to balance the game. Just because you think I'm insulting the actual player does change the fact that the player got the ultimate reflected back at them because they used poor judgement.
Which is the whole point. You keep repeating your belief that a skill should not reflect on ultimate, but that's looking at things in a vacuum. A player can;t have the meteor reflected back at them if they don't use it against a Dragonknight with wings up or if they use a double reflect. As long as there are ways to defeat DK Wings, then a player wont get a meteor reflected back at them unless these use poor tactics like the player in Alcast's video.
People came up with numerous ideas with how to reform Wings. Did ZOS listen? No. Because they held an unshakable view that DK Wings was a balance concern and thus the subject was a non-starter. This is precisely why things should not be viewed in a vacuum because that leads to uncompromising positions. This is why we shouldn't look at the video and just proclaim DK Wings is problematic. Without destroying the class's identity, how might it be possible to keep the DK's reflect without making it so burdensome?
One attractive idea was to set DK Wing's such that it only reflected projectiles that were cast from over 15 meters away (thus enabling close ranged attacks to bypass the Wings).
ZOS already had 2 skills which always defeated Wings: the Templar Eclipse and Defensive Posture. It's no surprise that these two unique skills no longer possess that functionality. Which is the whole point of this thread: ZOS has gotten rid of many of the options we once had. More such skills would allow players a means to defeat Wings.
Other people have suggested shortening the duration so it could only be used reactively rather than allowing a DK 100% uptime.
The point is there are other measures that could have been taken to reform the skill to keep what was an interesting and entertaining mechanic, but that path has not been taken because ZOS just chose to take an absolutist position that Wings ability to reflect just had to go. This was why I challenged your contention that the video showed what was an extreme balance issue. It was more the case of showing a player who played poorly. If we just go with the view that Wings should just not reflect a meteor, then there is no possibility for compromise.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
It is really difficult to approach your arguments with credibility and assume you are trying to be objective when you can't admit that you are wrong. I even posted the definition of intelligence for you.
Intelligence, per definition, consists of the ability to understand a new or trying situation, and you are directly questioning the player's ability to understand the new or trying situation they are in.
I mean, c'mon, @Joy_Division you literally wrote, "Why couldn't the PuG use a minutia of brainpower to target someone else?"
That is direct commentary on the player's intelligence, per the definition of intelligence. It is very clear.
Concerning the specific wings/meteor example. I think it is extreme when a single, easily slottable and readily available skill gives a player the ability to press a single button, within a 3 second window, to both completely mitigate and return the damage of an ultimate ability.
Though I don't think your arguments are very strong against my claim that wings/meteor is an extreme example, it is clear that you are unwavering and do not see things the same way. I don't think there is much more to gain from this back and forth.
Be well.
1 and 2
each class has different strenghts and that's why I came with the example of blazeplars and sap tanks, 2 classes that on their own right could counter a class that used to prey on them just by adjusting their build...
Ok but what reason would people have to continue playing? For a good amount of time people will be happy but not for forever, then what. Once they farmed their final set and played it to boredom. As sad as it sounds the grind is necessary. If you introduce new classes, armor sets, skill lines, as well as other combat stuff it will create imbalances.
The most effective way to keep people playing is to give them new content but the supply never meets the demand. The next best way is to give them shiny new stuff worth the time drain that it takes to get it. Adding any new and more powerful stuff to the game will always create imbalance bcz not everything is effected equally by changes.
My Point is its rare to get a game that has all 3. At times some games do but it does not last and eventually the pendulum swings the other way.
You can only get 2 of these. Choose wisely!
1.Strong and unique class skills/abilities
2.Decent balance between classes
3.Continue to get more powerful and get more content/stuff
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
It is really difficult to approach your arguments with credibility and assume you are trying to be objective when you can't admit that you are wrong. I even posted the definition of intelligence for you.
Intelligence, per definition, consists of the ability to understand a new or trying situation, and you are directly questioning the player's ability to understand the new or trying situation they are in.
I mean, c'mon, @Joy_Division you literally wrote, "Why couldn't the PuG use a minutia of brainpower to target someone else?"
That is direct commentary on the player's intelligence, per the definition of intelligence. It is very clear.
Concerning the specific wings/meteor example. I think it is extreme when a single, easily slottable and readily available skill gives a player the ability to press a single button, within a 3 second window, to both completely mitigate and return the damage of an ultimate ability.
Though I don't think your arguments are very strong against my claim that wings/meteor is an extreme example, it is clear that you are unwavering and do not see things the same way. I don't think there is much more to gain from this back and forth.
Be well.
Only 2? I'd be happy if we got at least 1 of those.
#1: Skills have been stripped of their unique effects continuously since release.
#2: Eh maybe? It's not as bad as it used to be.
#3: Last year saw an unprecedented barrage of nerfs. My chars are still ~20% weaker than a year ago. Vertical progression has been halted altogether. I would love to get more powerful for once, that would be great.
Actually they failed in end game content not becuase t was bad but because they just looked at PvP as end game. IC was the first attempt to add somethng else to end game PvP and failed.
They should have made the pvp much more dynamic and not only focused on cyro.
I want unique and powerful class skills.
I want all classes to be competitive
I want to continue to get powerful and get new and better stuff.
You can choose 2.