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Class Identity: 5 Points
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Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaggygaming wrote: »Blame PVP players for ZOS removing unique abilities from the classes. Blame end game PVE players for ZOS making a majority of abilities the same across the board. One cried for nerfs and the other wanted a better end game. If ZOS makes all the abilities less unique then it makes balancing easier. Another issue is the uphill battle ZOS started facing immediately with their decision for no skill cool downs. Yes I know internal 1 second cool down but I’m talking about abilities A hits for 5k and ability B hits for 2500 why would I use ability B when both are on the same cool down of 1 second.
This is a tough one. I personally enjoy where end game pve is now compared to vMOL days.
There was far superior overall balance in a Stam vs Stam and Mag vs Mag perspective before they started overhauling everything. Some classes needed work, yes, but generally speaking, the balance was overall better before Elsweyr. Elsweyr just gave us a Necro meta and dumpstered classes that were moderately competitive previously (Stamden, Stamblade, etc)1 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Great post mate, I agree 100%!
Class differences are respected in other MMOs
Too bad there is a need magdk thread sitting above this at the moment... FFS 🙄0 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »As a nightblade main:
I loved my saptank until it was gutted...
Then I loved my melee mageblade... gutted
then I made a ranged mageblade using agony+meteor (high ulti generation)... gutted
then I started thinking outside of the box and made a ranged dotblade... gutted
then, as a last attempt, I made a mageblade off healer using dots for dmg and swapping to save the group with soul siphon (a skill I swear I had never used before)... the following patch ZoS decided to roll back the buff to DoTs and give cast time to soul siphon... soul siphon, the last ultimate that needs a cast time (not that the others need them too)...
Then I gave up...
Currently I'm using my mageblade in DoS2 with necromancy, scourge and warfare and I can feel again a similar sentiment to what I felt when I had a Sap Tank... so, thanks Larian
Yes, a million times, yes. The nightblade class used to be interesting and you could build in many different ways and have lots of fun. Now, I kind of hate my non-redundant tool kit. it's bland.Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--1 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeI remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?Edited by Alcast on March 13, 2020 8:04AMhttps://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I'm not sure why they keep insisting on the cast times that everyone detests.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX11 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
That is quite possibly the coolest thing I've ever seen in this game, the video also plays on repeat with a sick beat lol.Edited by MashmalloMan on March 13, 2020 10:27AMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit3 -
Shaloknir✭✭✭I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
Amazing! 😁 this summarizes the need for POWERFUL skills. Every class needs them!0 -
JanTanhide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great write up Joy. I agree, now the game is meh. Nerfed into Oblivion and people still cry for more nerfs.1 -
Shaggygaming wrote: »Blame PVP players for ZOS removing unique abilities from the classes. Blame end game PVE players for ZOS making a majority of abilities the same across the board. One cried for nerfs and the other wanted a better end game. If ZOS makes all the abilities less unique then it makes balancing easier. Another issue is the uphill battle ZOS started facing immediately with their decision for no skill cool downs. Yes I know internal 1 second cool down but I’m talking about abilities A hits for 5k and ability B hits for 2500 why would I use ability B when both are on the same cool down of 1 second.
This is a tough one. I personally enjoy where end game pve is now compared to vMOL days.
Not all PvP players wanted ZOS to gut the interesting, class defining and unique skills. As a magblade main (or former over this past year), I've fully defended skills such as wings which hard counter my class as a whole because I know it's stupid to remove class defining skills like that.
yup... most PvPers that were not focused only on one class were against arbitrary nerfs. Taking away frags and shards stun was idiotic. Taking away cloak's purge was stupid. Taking away wings reflect was a crime. Taking away reach and scatter shot CC was genocidal and did even more dmg to all classes...
But cast time on ultis... especially on soul syphon... that was the tombstone
Preach.0 -
Lybal✭✭✭I didn't see this post before, but I just feel the need to tell how well it's written and how all these changes last years lade the game less and less interesting and fun to play.
So much stuff they should just rollback to what it was before, so many moments where I feel like they just ignore the whole community and force changes when most people didn't like it with *** explanations.
Honestly, sometimes I just think they're killing the game cause I can't see how anyone with a bit of logic and understanding of their own game could agree to some of these changes.
I even made a character that isn't a Nb after 6 years playing only Nb, I feel like they broke me these last patch.Edited by Lybal on March 13, 2020 4:22PMOut of this game, tired of horrible performance and a lot of changes.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.5 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
So balanced means boring? Wings mitigated a lot of my main toolkit but it was definitely fun ability to use and one of dks signature move. Also it was useless against melee so not "one defense skill to mitigate it all"5 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd be able to live with some imbalance like old DK wings if it also meant Nightblades would be fun again and not the mutilated mess they are now.5 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Czekoludek wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
So balanced means boring? Wings mitigated a lot of my main toolkit but it was definitely fun ability to use and one of dks signature move. Also it was useless against melee so not "one defense skill to mitigate it all"
Nope. Balance doesn't have to be boring.1 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
So balanced means boring? Wings mitigated a lot of my main toolkit but it was definitely fun ability to use and one of dks signature move. Also it was useless against melee so not "one defense skill to mitigate it all"
Nope. Balance doesn't have to be boring.
There should be skills extremely effective against some playstyles. True balance should be around group play. If your group fight against group with dk, as a magblade you should focus different target, maybe enemy healer or squishy dd. DKs should be a struggle to you, philosophy of rock, papier, scissors, etc. Right now we lost so many good skills because for some ppl being extremely effective against SOME classes, skills is a big no no. If wings are good against projectiles only, why not letting it be so?1 -
Squidgaurd✭✭✭First, the team focused on making players’ actions feel more meaningful. Rather than letting players just hit a button and watch animations go off and health meters rise or fall, Firor and his team focused on player agency.
Combat was sped up and animations were trimmed down, all in the hope of shaving a few hundred milliseconds off the time between when a player hit a button and their character moved in the game. It doesn’t sound like much, but Firor says it was a months-long, cross-disciplinary effort that pulled in groups of artists and designers from across the entire development team. The result was a first-person fighting experience more on par with Skyrim.1 -
PhoenixGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
So balanced means boring? Wings mitigated a lot of my main toolkit but it was definitely fun ability to use and one of dks signature move. Also it was useless against melee so not "one defense skill to mitigate it all"
Nope. Balance doesn't have to be boring.
Everyone's idea of balance is pretty different which is why its pointless beyond a certain extent.
Games are supposed to be fun and entertaining, not balanced and boring like whatever the current *** is.7 -
RaptorRodeoGod✭✭✭✭✭I don't agree with everything the OP asserts, but I do generally agree that combat in this game leaves much to be desired. I don't view aesthetics as mere "fluff" as the OP does, but it is true that the aesthetic distinctions should ideally be backed by mechanical distinctions. I think that the OP highlights some of the "worst case" changes made that resulted in abilities becoming more bland rather well, but that they also overlook "best case" changes that made abilities more interesting.
In the spirit of that, what about abilities that have become better and more distinct over time? Are there many players who think the original iterations of Bound Armor and its morphs were more interesting than what we have now? What about Searing Strike, which got a damage type shift for the stamina morph to work better with the CP system? How about Rune Focus where we got a morph that gives stamina characters a stamina recovery skill? Were these sorts of things bad changes? Are the homogenizing and/or providing more options for different character types?
I'm not going to pretend to have an answer. Besides, there's only opinions anyway.
I absolutely preferred the original Bound Armor. Summoning a set of armor was one of the main reasons I played a Sorcerer over the other classes. I was IMMENSELY let down when they gutted the appearance of the skill because people complained about the way it looked.
By the time I stopped playing my Sorcerer, all the unique skills that convinced me to make one had gone away.Add a Scribing skill that works like Arcanist beam.
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Veteran players have been alienated and disengaged from Overland since One Tamriel, due to the lack of difficulty, and pushed into dungeons and trials; the minority of content in the Elder Scrolls Online. We can't take the repetition anymore, fix Overland engagement for Vet players. I don't even care if it's not combat related anymore, just make Overland engaging again.
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Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. Make a self debuff mythic. Literally anything at this point.0 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Almost everything should absolutely be solo. The idea that people should be forced to group is obsolete and stupid, especially in this day and age.
That said, every class should have their own unique ways of doing it.Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Almost everything should absolutely be solo. The idea that people should be forced to group is obsolete and stupid, especially in this day and age.
That said, every class should have their own unique ways of doing it.
Nobody is forced to group, just that some content requires a group. Nothing wrong with an mmo having group content.
Edit: i still dont understand how is your comment connectedEdited by zvavi on March 14, 2020 12:15PM3 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
I mean other classes can negate damage entirely such as using cloak or streak, so I really don't see what the issue is. The wing's nerf was awful as are many of the changes ZOS has made to the game, in particular classes over the years.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.5 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think things really downturned when they began to make the resource changes and light/heavy attack changes. I agreed with the ideas at the time, looking back it seems the changes didn’t age well.
There were an abundance of changes though through the years and they have consistently moved toward homogenization. Some of the changes were unavoidable as they were merely factors of a growing experience in the player base.
I rarely have time to play anymore, but I also am not very attracted to the game anymore.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
I was fine with the imbalance of Wings versus projectiles, back when heavy attacks dealt real damage and you could hold your heavies for the wings to drop. The imbalance with Wings became overbearing when heavies auto completed and dealt crappy damage.
Well, that, and when DKs were monsters in melee and immune to range. It was the best of both worlds.
That said, before the heavy attack changes I had no real complaints with Wings being too powerful.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
I mean other classes can negate damage entirely such as using cloak or streak, so I really don't see what the issue is. The wing's nerf was awful as are many of the changes ZOS has made to the game, in particular classes over the years.
The issue wasn’t negating the damage entirely. It was negating the damage and returning the damage in the same button. It was useless against melee and OP versus range.
But like I said above, before the resource and heavy attack changes I never had too much trouble with wings.
Wings was imbalanced vs one type of attacker. However, there were better ways to work around it. Then it became even more unbalanced. Then it was nerfed to a balanced but very boring state.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »I think things really downturned when they began to make the resource changes and light/heavy attack changes. I agreed with the ideas at the time, looking back it seems the changes didn’t age well.
There were an abundance of changes though through the years and they have consistently moved toward homogenization. Some of the changes were unavoidable as they were merely factors of a growing experience in the player base.
I rarely have time to play anymore, but I also am not very attracted to the game anymore.
Sad.
I remember this poster. From years ago. Liked playing an archer. Was pretty active giving feedback. Haven't seen them in a long, long time. Of all the games I've spent hundreds of hours playing: Skyrim, Total Annihilation, Baldur's Gate, Duke Nukem, Dragon Age, Civilization I-IV, Neverwinter Nights, Europa Universalis, etc., none of them was because I stop being attracted to them.2 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭Great post. Just a few points of contention, but they're more for clarification purposes as I ultimately agree with the intent of the content.
Post does sound biased against PvP. A lot of the stamblade damage nerfs were a result of the stamblade PvE meta. The points you stated about PvP whining resulting in nerfs were true, but overall tone does suggest a bias. Both forms of gameplay have caused issues for the other.
On that point, let's talk wings, magsorcs were the most vocal but don't forget magblades are essentially locked out of veiled strikes leaving them with 0 counter-play to reflect wings. Wasn't a fan of the removal of reflect myself, but near 100% uptime of 100% ranged mitigation is too strong. While a Dk spamming wings isn't likely to kill anyone , it does promote the "stalemate" gameplay that you yourself criticized in your post. Quantum had an interesting mechanic that allowed for actual counter-play and personally I think a hybrid of the old reflect and current mitigation would have been better (infinite reflect for 1.5 seconds and 25% mitigation for 4 seconds. This would promote reactive use of wings, keep identity and provide a soft counter to range without making the ability useless.) No other game has complete immunity on a spammable ability and that's what wings was to range. Yes, as a magsorc I could kill a DK but it was very long and the skill floor for the DK was raised to near the skill ceiling of the sorc unless the sorc also used cheese like pets/mine but thats comparing poor design to poor design).
Hard counters like old wings, old shield breaker and detect potions shouldn't exist. They wouldn't have to if the base abilities were properly balanced. Current shields aren't over powered (I'd argue slightly underperforming but that has to do with mag kits as a whole) so we know that balance is possible. I agree that some classes should perform better in certain situations but counter-play is still important. in your scenario, as a wizard, you have options to keep that berserker at a distance. magblades couldn't even get cripple past wings and sorcs only options was to camp mines which was also an unhealthy gameplay pattern. ZoS and your post kind of confuse counter-play with low impact design. New wings does not promote counter-play, it just reduced the impact of the ability.If a DK wants to spam wings there was and is still nothing a sorc/mnb could do about it.
Using an ability should never result in a zero-sum for the user, at least not for an extended period of time. Wings actually resulted in a negative-sum (resources used and also required to block/dodge reflected ability for 4 seconds). The class had to sit and wait, which actually resulted in players disengaging from the fight. Counter-play should always exist, the class identity (strength/weakness) comes from the difficulty/sacrifices of pulling of the counter-i.e. effort vs reward ratios. For example if it is easy for a DK to keep up a low-impact wings it should be hard for the sorc to pull of the counter (reverse for high-impact wings) OR the sorc sacrifices something to counter. Quantum's proposal did the latter by forcing the ranged opponent to skirt the DKs kill range in order to deal damage, which is exactly where the DK would want them. If no direct counter-play exists then the impact should be low and be "countered" by generic decision making. You could compare wing spam to shield stack spam. Neither was truly healthy at the time wings was changed.
The topic of wings reflect can and has spawned entire threads so I won't linger on it. But the point is, ultimately this all stems for lazy design, which you touched on. Instead of balancing reflect wings, they removed them. Instead of balancing shields they introduced shield breaker. Instead of balancing cloak they introduced detect pots. Healing meta? Meet Defile. Proc meta? Meet tank meta. Tank meta? Meet damage + healing meta.
Instead of encouraging players to learn mechanics, they oversimplify or flat out remove them. Instead of addressing the issue they introduce "new content" to deal with it. Instead of accepting that the more skilled player wins they keep adjusting passive mitigation/healing to match damage to the point where the floor matches the ceiling.
Damage should ALWAYS out parse healing otherwise combat never ends. That just isn't the case and a lot of it stems from lazy design resulting in homogenized combat meaning there is less options to surpass your opponent in terms of outgoing damage--looking at you cast times
And for those who don't understand why damage should out parse healing/mitigation (shields), it's because 1. the point of the game is combat meaning someone should die, and 2. If you force your opponent into a defensive posture or "turtling" they are no longer dealing damage to you at which point, for that specific offensive window, your incoming healing outpaces their out-going damage.
So while a direct comparison of a 5 second parse for both healing and damage should show higher damage, over a fight between equally skilled players the damage parse will end up closer to the healing because you will not always be dealing damage to the same degree that you SHOULD be healing/mitigating.
If you don't understand the last bit, you don't understand PvP.3 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PhoenixGrey wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Czekoludek wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I remember how awesome it felt to reflect a meteor in the enemies face and leaping after him with my Stam DK. As an enemy you would only do that a few times, till you learned to not drop meteors on Dragonknights (or take the risk). But learning something so simple had to be nerfed! And now the fun is gone, wings has been reduced to a pile of garbage (from a DK perspective). Sure it still might be strong, but it is for sure NOT fun to use.
I wish they would delete Stonefist, I dislike the current form heavily. However, ZOS spent a whole 2-3 patches to complete this one skill, so I doubt they will change it again.
About the cast time on Stonefist, I find it interesting to see that both Fragmented/Igneous Shield and Stonefist have the same lenghty animation, yet Stonefist gets a cast time and the other one not?
I get the gist of what you are saying, but the meteor example is extreme. Wings was definitely a problem when it's status as a regular skill allowed it to not only cancel damage from meter (an ultimate that was already noticeably telegraphed), but also reflect that damage. Yes, it was unique and could make for funny clips like that, but it was also quite silly how imbalanced it was.
So balanced means boring? Wings mitigated a lot of my main toolkit but it was definitely fun ability to use and one of dks signature move. Also it was useless against melee so not "one defense skill to mitigate it all"
Nope. Balance doesn't have to be boring.
Everyone's idea of balance is pretty different which is why its pointless beyond a certain extent.
Games are supposed to be fun and entertaining, not balanced and boring like whatever the current *** is.
Actually consider the example I was referring to when you run it through a "fun and entertaining" checker. @Alcast posted a video of a regular slottable skill (one that can be activated at any time) completely mitigating the damage of as well as reversing the damage of an ultimate skill (one that has to be built up to use and by design is stronger than other skills).
Fun and entertaining is great, but you also have to consider the experience of the player on the other side of that combat instance. Their ultimate was not only useless against the opponent, but also harmful to them -- all because a player could use an easily slottable, readily available skill (wings) that effectively allowed them to use 2 ultimate skills at once against the other player (the reflected meteor and the leap). How fun and entertaining is it for the player who cast the meteor?
That example truly is a balance concern, and anyone with enough experience with how the game operates and plays can recognize it as such if they look at everything that happens in that video objectively. Hence why I called it an "extreme" example.
It's also a bummer that someone with the platform and potential influence of @Alcast basically calls the wings/meteor interaction from the video a L2P issue. He didn't recognize any sort of imbalance in the video and simply says, "But learning something so simple had to be nerfed!"
Again, I see that as a bummer. I would hope that someone who ZOS has, in the past, given their ears to (whether they listen or not) would have better recognition of L2P and balance. This example was just too extreme, which is why I said I understood the gist of what he was saying, but wanted to point out that it was extreme.3 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@IAVITNI
Who's biased here? MagBLADES were definitely the most vocal in regards to wings nerf, as 100% of their toolkit was reflected. They even questioned why Strife is considered a projectile. Magsorcs weren't happy, but had Curse, Fury and later Force Pulse to deal with wings.
Dude!
>=C0 -
IAVITNI✭✭✭✭✭@IAVITNI
Who's biased here? MagBLADES were definitely the most vocal in regards to wings nerf, as 100% of their toolkit was reflected. They even questioned why Strife is considered a projectile. Magsorcs weren't happy, but had Curse, Fury and later Force Pulse to deal with wings.
Dude!
>=C
What? I was just stating that every time op began to discuss a nerf the post directed the cause to PvP when the reverse is true for other issues that don't fall into the scope of the OP. Just wanted to be clear about the fact that both PvP and PvE affect each changes, it's not just PvP affecting balance, which is what the OP makes it sound like.
This also had nothing to do with the wing discussion, which was a long segway into lazy design decisions. And yes magsorcs were more vocal because there are more magsorcs. If you read my post I literally say magsorcs were more vocal but indicate that magblades were actually countered more so.
Not sure what you're getting at or if you actually read my post or just read Bias+Wings+magsorc+mnb and decided to argue with me based on that.0
