Class Identity: 5 Points

juhislihis19

Great post.

To recap:

ESO, "dumbing the game down since 2017".

Finedaible

I hope someone passed this thread along to some of the Class Representatives. Hopefully one of them could get ZoS to read it.

Xvorg

CassandraGemini wrote: »

A TL;DR would be nice. I'm really not opposed to reading longer texts and what you have to say seems interesting - but it's just too much. Way too much. It really might have been better to stick to what's most important and leave some of the rest out, because I seriously doubt that many people will read through the whole text, and, as I said, it actually seems interesting, so that's a bit sad.

In simple words, at some point ESO had class identity defined by class skills, and those class skills also could define your own identity; for example, flame lash, a skill that rewarded you for setting your enemy off balance without having to CC him first (it stunned enemies off balance) creating a different identity on the same class if you were able to build that way. Now everything is so homogenized it is almost the same playing a mDK than a melee mageblade. What makes the distinction is a couple passives and, of course, gear (mainly gear).

Xvorg

Czekoludek wrote: »

As a nightblade main:

I loved my saptank until it was gutted...
Then I loved my melee mageblade... gutted
then I made a ranged mageblade using agony+meteor (high ulti generation)... gutted
then I started thinking outside of the box and made a ranged dotblade... gutted
then, as a last attempt, I made a mageblade off healer using dots for dmg and swapping to save the group with soul siphon (a skill I swear I had never used before)... the following patch ZoS decided to roll back the buff to DoTs and give cast time to soul siphon... soul siphon, the last ultimate that needs a cast time (not that the others need them too)...

Then I gave up...

Currently I'm using my mageblade in DoS2 with necromancy, scourge and warfare and I can feel again a similar sentiment to what I felt when I had a Sap Tank... so, thanks Larian

Tommy_The_Gun

Xvorg wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

As a nightblade main:

I loved my saptank until it was gutted...
Then I loved my melee mageblade... gutted
then I made a ranged mageblade using agony+meteor (high ulti generation)... gutted
then I started thinking outside of the box and made a ranged dotblade... gutted
then, as a last attempt, I made a mageblade off healer using dots for dmg and swapping to save the group with soul siphon (a skill I swear I had never used before)... the following patch ZoS decided to roll back the buff to DoTs and give cast time to soul siphon... soul siphon, the last ultimate that needs a cast time (not that the others need them too)...

Similar story. My last attempt was NB hybrid Werewolf... also gutted

Xvorg

@Joy_Division thanks for sharing this... it is what most of us feel regarding the game and how it has evolved from a world full of possibilities into Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" video...

Valgar0r

I agree at 100%.

Class identity is having a hard time. Sadly, i feel like if ZOS ignore all the constructive player's feedbacks.

PVP lost so many players because of these nonsense changes, add it to the horrible performance and huge skills delays we got with the update 25.

Yes, ZOS should seriously rework their strategy to make PvP more attractive (and at least playable).

Sriivah

Nooo, don't send me on a nostalgia trip like this, Joy. It makes me sad about all the fun, probably mildly stupid things that I used to enjoy that aren't there anymore...

Like wandering around in Cyrodiil, iirc near the dolmen south of Farra, and hearing the now familiar buh-boom, fwsshhhh noise of a meteor, thinking, hey, I wonder what's going on, and finding a pair of the better-known vampire dks seeing how many meteors they could simultaneously play ping-pong with. By the time I found them it was just an arc of blue-white light from something like 6 meteors reflecting between them. I barely even play my DKs now, and I still want ZOS to give the class back their reflects because they were awesome.

Or laughing as a DK boldly leaps at you to get into an inner keep, only to take a Javelin to the face, plummet to the ground, and die to fall damage.

Or the satisfaction the first time I got veils up every manti stomp while progressing Sanctum with Eight Divines, and then every poison phase on the Serpent. Sure, I couldn't outparse the mDKs, no one could, but I kept the team alive. Back then, veil/nova were incredibly important and powerful ultimates. Now veil is a joke and people only like nova because Harmony makes that synergy hurt real bad.

Or, Sanctum again, the "I'm a real tank now!" feeling of solo tanking my first no-poison run. ZOS taking away the ability for a good tank to control the poisons was an awful mistake that took away a lot of that trial's fun. I guess at least Ozara is a real boss now?

Also, saptanks. I still can't understand how anyone can genuinely think that the boring meathead mit-based "stand there and take it to the face" thing that Nightblades have now is anywhere near as fun as the active, hot-stacking, evasive, aoe-based sustain monster that existed before Morrowind made Siphoning Attacks suck.
Is balance better now? Honestly, yes, at least there isn't one class that plays a completely different game to all the others anymore. But it came at the cost of the classes actually feeling any different from each other. My three tanks, nb, dk, warden, all feel the same with different colors. Every single spec minus petsorc has the same basic bar setup and rotation in pve, dots dots spammable maybe execute if you've got one etc. Bound Armaments is blatantly just better Grim Focus, so ZOS idea of "Stamsorc Identity" is clearly "Stamblade, but blue". And so on.

Honestly? I'd rather have the iffy balance back if it meant that when I logged onto my Magblade, I didn't feel like a gimpy Sorc, or I once again had to be careful taking potshots at a disorganized group lest my pew pews come back to my face courtesy of an angry DK. It was *fun* when every class had something that was OP that dictated how you fought with or against them, Sorcs streaking to the horizon and back, DK ping-pong, Nb cloak and shade-nanigans, templars purging and healing like it was going out of style. Sure, every trial group was "Get a couple templar healers, a nightblade veil spammer, maybe a sorcerer for AA, and then as many dks as you can fit", but it's not like that's changed overmuch considering the current stamnecro stacking, and you can tweak numbers to change optimal trial comps. Finding fun is much harder.

Raammzzaa

Thank you, @Joy_Division for the time you put into this post. It is spot on.

Kinnahz

All very true and on point.

Thank you for taking the time to write up what i feel may be a pretty consistent thought among a large amount of the player base.

Bradyfjord

I appreciate your thoughtful words, @Joy_Division .

JinxxND

Can the dev's actually look at this post and take something away from it please, spot on.

zDan

Good stuff man I agree with a lot of it. Also with quotes from ZOS to back it up, there's no way they can avoid these valid statements

Helgarth

Created an account only to say bravo to this ! 😁

Been playing since long, having a pause right now because I got more and more bored to play my class on the top of it being tougher.

Also I would emphasise that I think we actually also need more stuns. Or at least less reactive time. Having people 1Vxing is one of the biggest non sense I could not grasp... But why is it even possible? Because we cannot control them, we cannot make them stand still long enough... I personally think that the frame when you cannot be stunned after being controlled once is somehow non sense... It's making the purpose of playing as a team a bit less relevant. I can get not being stunned by the same spell twice as we don't really have a cd... But why can't we, as a team, chain stun someone and make those Benny Hill chananigans stop? Would have also less complains on nighblades with that 😁.

Personal opinion tho 😊

Alchimiste1

Original post hit the nail on the head for so many things wrong with the direction of the game. I too will be taking a break from eso when my subscription ends.

Game now just lacks that fun aspect.

usmguy1234

MusCanus wrote: »

ZOS in the meantime: "Nah, it's all fine, our revenues increased x-fold since launch. That means people are happy."

Ignorance is bliss is exactly why zos caters to new players who can't see past the crown store fluff to how the game truly performs. Sadly most large gaming companies don't makes games out of passion anymore, it's all about maximizing profit.

Shantu

Exquisitely insightful post. I can just picture the combat dev team's response: "TL;DR"

I wish the wannabes at ZOS has even a smidgen of your intelligence, insight, and care for this game.

FrankonPC

Amazing post. I agree with most of it. The only things I disagree with were that wings were such a hard counter to reflecting projectile builds and some counter play there would have been nice if they didn't neuter the skill completely.

Reflecting/purging/cloaking/streaking meteors was one of the best parts of this game when i first started playing. Then enough people complained about it and now it always hits you. That was a needless change imo because most competent players knew to cc if they were going to drop a rock on someone's head.

Just those little skill edges around the corner over time have turned this game into what it is, and why they won't reveal the new "class identity" idea stuff they were hinting at is just weird to me. If they said "although we can't reveal in depth what we are looking at, or in final details, i can tell you that atronach will have a stamina morph". I am pretty sure stam sorcs would be pumped.

adirondack

Everything said in the OP is 100% correct and insightful. It would be wonderful to have ZOS reply, just so we can be assured they actually read user comments and thoughts.

HackTheMinotaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TT5U5RLJE0

PhoenixGrey

Really nice post @Joy_Division . I hope some dev reads this. (which they probably won't. Imagine ZOS looking at non nerf posts with actual substance )

I honestly believe that the eso community also is equally culpable with the constant whining for nerfs.

Czekoludek

adirondack wrote: »

Everything said in the OP is 100% correct and insightful. It would be wonderful to have ZOS reply, just so we can be assured they actually read user comments and thoughts.

The best you can expect from them is:

ZOS wrote:

Greetings all,

After removing a few rude and off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,

They are known well for not acknowledging their mistakes. It is sad but I don't think anyone from ZOS care even to read this and use it to improve the actual game

zvavi

Good posts like this should be on the front page.

Finedaible

I feel it is important that the devs know about this post because I'm sure many players can share the same sentiments regarding class identity in its current state this patch. Therefore, I will be tagging all the class reps that I can find in the hopes that one of them can present our concerns if at all possible. I don't know what else I can do, so sorry if this isn't the proper way to contact the reps: @Alcast @FeaR Turbo @GandTheImpaler @Masel @Quantum_V @CAB_Life @cicisch @Glorious_One @Nefas @RebornZombie

Please pass along this thread if any of you can.

Varana

pieratsos wrote: »

We need the timeline for more skills. Frags, rune prison, pets, wings etc.

The UESP has a list of the patch notes like this for every skill. You just have to find the original version of the article (easy in a wiki) to find the starting point.
The UESP is awesome like that. ;D

Sylosi

A game where classes can perform all roles, use all types of weapon / armour, where the majority of skills, traits, etc are available to every single class (guild, weapon, armour, race, world, CP tree, etc) and where all classes use the same mechanics is an absolute joke in terms of class identity.

No one who genuinely prioritises class identity as a big factor plays this game, it has always been very weak in that regard.

Shaggygaming

Blame PVP players for ZOS removing unique abilities from the classes. Blame end game PVE players for ZOS making a majority of abilities the same across the board. One cried for nerfs and the other wanted a better end game. If ZOS makes all the abilities less unique then it makes balancing easier. Another issue is the uphill battle ZOS started facing immediately with their decision for no skill cool downs. Yes I know internal 1 second cool down but I’m talking about abilities A hits for 5k and ability B hits for 2500 why would I use ability B when both are on the same cool down of 1 second.

This is a tough one. I personally enjoy where end game pve is now compared to vMOL days.

Drdeath20

I want unique and powerful class skills.

I want all classes to be competitive

I want to continue to get powerful and get new and better stuff.

You can choose 2.

Rikumaru

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Blame PVP players for ZOS removing unique abilities from the classes. Blame end game PVE players for ZOS making a majority of abilities the same across the board. One cried for nerfs and the other wanted a better end game. If ZOS makes all the abilities less unique then it makes balancing easier. Another issue is the uphill battle ZOS started facing immediately with their decision for no skill cool downs. Yes I know internal 1 second cool down but I’m talking about abilities A hits for 5k and ability B hits for 2500 why would I use ability B when both are on the same cool down of 1 second.

This is a tough one. I personally enjoy where end game pve is now compared to vMOL days.

Not all PvP players wanted ZOS to gut the interesting, class defining and unique skills. As a magblade main (or former over this past year), I've fully defended skills such as wings which hard counter my class as a whole because I know it's stupid to remove class defining skills like that.

Xvorg

Rikumaru wrote: »

Shaggygaming wrote: »

Blame PVP players for ZOS removing unique abilities from the classes. Blame end game PVE players for ZOS making a majority of abilities the same across the board. One cried for nerfs and the other wanted a better end game. If ZOS makes all the abilities less unique then it makes balancing easier. Another issue is the uphill battle ZOS started facing immediately with their decision for no skill cool downs. Yes I know internal 1 second cool down but I’m talking about abilities A hits for 5k and ability B hits for 2500 why would I use ability B when both are on the same cool down of 1 second.

This is a tough one. I personally enjoy where end game pve is now compared to vMOL days.

Not all PvP players wanted ZOS to gut the interesting, class defining and unique skills. As a magblade main (or former over this past year), I've fully defended skills such as wings which hard counter my class as a whole because I know it's stupid to remove class defining skills like that.

yup... most PvPers that were not focused only on one class were against arbitrary nerfs. Taking away frags and shards stun was idiotic. Taking away cloak's purge was stupid. Taking away wings reflect was a crime. Taking away reach and scatter shot CC was genocidal and did even more dmg to all classes...

But cast time on ultis... especially on soul syphon... that was the tombstone