Please add some realistic weapon models.

StormeReigns

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Now lets try some images to make you understand better since everything written obviously flies over your head.
Anime styled and unrealistic

Just looks like a Two handed version of the Egyptian Khopesh (which the 1Handed version of Pellitine is designed after)

Ram-Dao

Long handle Da-Dao

Urumi

Just cause they are curved, wide, or weird shaped blades doesn't mean unrealistic, or even anime.
Most 1single handed swords in game have very real world counterparts. Most studio artists will scale these up to use as two handed weapons as well to save on time, cost and scheduling.

Vyvrhel wrote: »

Your turn, show me a Valejo picture with a human with a wrongly sized or shaped sword.

Also, there is no such thing as wrongly shaped or size for weapons. Practicality and usability on oversized and "unique" shaped blades outside of niche usage (ie.: executioner blades) on the other hand is a more accurate argument.

Morgha_Kul

Vyvrhel wrote: »

I love the photorealistic graphics of the game. Yet I miss some realistic (i.e. period) looking european style swords. We have rather good looking daito and nihonto (soul shriven models) but nothing like real longsword (a greatsword in game terms) or an arming sword (one handed sword).
Some examples:
Period renaissance longsword
https://www.zornhau.de/original-der-woche-7-original-of-the-week-7/
other swords, sadly I did not find anything with an english text, just check the images
http://www.digladior.cz/category/historicky-serm/historicke-zbrane/
Modern replicas based more or less on the original swords
https://www.coldsteel.com/italian-long-sword.html
https://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/Longsword.html
A longsword model I did ages ago for Fallout 3, but since the game had not 2 handed sword animations I scaled it down and used as one handed, though IIRC some guys later modified it either for Fallout New Vegas or Skyrim.
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/3621/?tab=description
So please something like that.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have a really hard time trying to equip my characters with weapons that don't look absurd... gigantic Games Workshop type stuff.

I actually made a comment about this the other day in the outfits thread.

kind_hero

Vyvrhel wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

There are several historical designs in the game:

The argonian kukri shaped swords and knives are also very nice. But what I wanted to be added was something else. I wanted just a plain, normal, medievan european sword. Which, in my opinion, is missing.

I think there are a few similar to a "medieval European" sword, but unfortunately they are to bulky or coarse. The sapiarch sword is close.

Molag Kena outfit:

I like the way they designed the Molag Kena sword. It resembles a medieval sword, but it has some fantasy twist to it, with that crystal giving it magic powers. True, those spikes pointing towards your hand are silly, but overall it is a nice fantasy sword.


However, what do you mean by "medieval"? The middle ages starts roughly after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (Charlemagne is early middle ages) and continues up to the fall of Constantinopole (1453). These time markers vary from one historian to another, so you can say medieval even when talking about 16th century Europe, because knights were still important on the battlefield.

The sword designs changed a lot during this period, from the one handed hilt "viking" sword, to the 1.5 hand swords used in the 15th century, going through several designs imported from the Middle East or North Africa (like the falchion or the curved kilic used by the Ottoman cavalries)

The Yokudan motif has a sword like the falchion, widely used in the European middle ages:





I think the weapons are not so bad, except for the ridiculous 2h weapons like the sledge hammer posted above which will most likely break from the shaft and unbalance the wielder on hit.

What I would like to change slightly is the direction they have on armors, and by that I mean the floating hip flaps and crotch rags. This is not about realism, those flaps are annoying in the way they float but also I dislike how the weapons clip through those flaps. What is the point of having them? OK, some one could show me some middle age or samurai armor, which has some hip/leg protection. But as I said in my earlier post, the weapons and armors are shaped by the way warfare is fought, not the other way around. Those armors are intended to be used on horseback, so since our characters fight on foot all the time, there is little reason to keep that similarity. Furthermore, I might understand extra protection for metal armor, but why have floating flaps on robes or jerkins?

TheShadowScout

zaria wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The thing is, the "tech level" of tamriel is more "early middle ages" - so, viking raids, karolus magnus, norman conquest of britain, mongol hordes overruning kievan rus, early crusades, that sort of thing. So any "long sword" like designs that were more a thing for the -late- middle ages would -actually- be a little bit out of place...

It would still be nifty, and could make for a good "breton noble" style, yes? The more options the merrier after all (as long as we don't go to "fencing" weapons which would be -quite- useless against fully armored opponents on the battlefield...)

Disagree here, say TES is late renaissance level, you have things like water powered sawmills with carriage return.
Yes that feature in Skyrim is an real thing, however you had to pull an level to activate it. its an replica of an 1700 sawmill near me. Windmills are common and you have drop hammers. Printing presses so good they have to be industrial age or more likely magical, because books are everywhere. Still in 1600 large part of the world was still stone age.
And yes I too prefer realistic weapons. Armor, not so much

Well, I would agree that Tamriel has -some- pearls of higher tech (I mean, the dwemer stuff is full-out clockworks and steampunk!), and -definitely- throws off the curve through all the magic...
...but generally...
...they are using -catapults- instead of -cannons- (which were a thing in actual renaissance), they are still totally into heavy armor and haven't yet seen that decline through advance of better ranged weapons which was also one of the defining things of the actual renaissance, the cities are more medieval-ish in size and setup, not the sprawling collections of humanity that the renaissance could brag of (or not, considering the side effects), the landscape is still medieval-ish half-tamed with monsters in the woods instead of the renaissance "don't worry about the wolves, worry about the humans!", the social constructs are way more medieval-ish then anything else, and most importantly, the advance of natural philosophy (aka, "science") that actually made the renaissance what it was is nowhere to be seen (since in Tamriel, religion actually is cause and effect often enough)

Oh, and we have not seen a -single- printing press in all of tamriel as of yet. Though with all the books, I reckon there have been thousands of daedra summoned to hand-copy texts all over tamriels history (which would explain why they hate being summoned by mortals so much they go out of their way to torture mortals any chance they get - if you were called from your evening meal and a cuddling date with your favorite Mazken to copy boring books for hours and hours and not even get paid... you'd be grumpy too! )

Oh, and in 1600, the only parts of the world still "stone age" were parts of america, australia and some isles here and there (and the european imperialist had already started on america and australia...). Africa had been sort of in the iron age for millenia at that time (not in the least because in many parts they kinda skipped the bronze age due to lack of the proper metals as I dimly recall), pretty much all of asia had been civilized longer then most of europe anyhow...
...while in Tamriel, yeah, there are some corners that are a bit of a mixed bag, tech-wise... the reachmen, bosmer and argonians especially are often a bit too close to nature to be all that technically sophisticated, tho they do make up for it with magic I reckon...

Still.
All that being said, Tamriel -does- portray a -wide- range of styles, and we DO already have some late middle ages full plate styles, so a bit more of that like a longsword or two would not be totally out of place. As long as its just one or two I guess... and does not go into "rapier/smallsword" categories, those only start to make sense when armor starts to go out of style through muskets in the actual "renaissance" tech levels, and tamriel won't be there for the next millenia at the very least as we know they haven't gotten there by TES-V:Skyrim anyhow...

LordVox wrote: »

I want to see some bigger shields. I hate the shields in this game.

I love the shields in this game for being a nice size an "adventurer" would carry.
But... I agree that some styles could go for a bigger design, so those who want to go "tower shield" can find a shield that matches their preference as well!

Hamish999

Chrysamere would like a word ...

Michae

Can you show me those chainmail bikinis in ESO everyone seems to be talking about? I'm asking for a friend.

And on the topic TES games never had realistic gear, I don't see why they should do it now. It's ok at the moment, nothing more silly than we've seen before. You want medieval realism? Go play Kingdom Come: Deliverance or Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

kind_hero

TheShadowScout wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The thing is, the "tech level" of tamriel is more "early middle ages" - so, viking raids, karolus magnus, norman conquest of britain, mongol hordes overruning kievan rus, early crusades, that sort of thing. So any "long sword" like designs that were more a thing for the -late- middle ages would -actually- be a little bit out of place...

It would still be nifty, and could make for a good "breton noble" style, yes? The more options the merrier after all (as long as we don't go to "fencing" weapons which would be -quite- useless against fully armored opponents on the battlefield...)

Disagree here, say TES is late renaissance level, you have things like water powered sawmills with carriage return.
Yes that feature in Skyrim is an real thing, however you had to pull an level to activate it. its an replica of an 1700 sawmill near me. Windmills are common and you have drop hammers. Printing presses so good they have to be industrial age or more likely magical, because books are everywhere. Still in 1600 large part of the world was still stone age.
And yes I too prefer realistic weapons. Armor, not so much

Well, I would agree that Tamriel has -some- pearls of higher tech (I mean, the dwemer stuff is full-out clockworks and steampunk!), and -definitely- throws off the curve through all the magic...
...but generally...
...they are using -catapults- instead of -cannons- (which were a thing in actual renaissance), they are still totally into heavy armor and haven't yet seen that decline through advance of better ranged weapons which was also one of the defining things of the actual renaissance, the cities are more medieval-ish in size and setup, not the sprawling collections of humanity that the renaissance could brag of (or not, considering the side effects), the landscape is still medieval-ish half-tamed with monsters in the woods instead of the renaissance "don't worry about the wolves, worry about the humans!", the social constructs are way more medieval-ish then anything else, and most importantly, the advance of natural philosophy (aka, "science") that actually made the renaissance what it was is nowhere to be seen (since in Tamriel, religion actually is cause and effect often enough)

Oh, and we have not seen a -single- printing press in all of tamriel as of yet. Though with all the books, I reckon there have been thousands of daedra summoned to hand-copy texts all over tamriels history (which would explain why they hate being summoned by mortals so much they go out of their way to torture mortals any chance they get - if you were called from your evening meal and a cuddling date with your favorite Mazken to copy boring books for hours and hours and not even get paid... you'd be grumpy too! )

There are some misconceptions about Europe and Renaissance, mostly because of the Western culture bias.

Regarding the printing press... Printing press is not "renaissance".
This invention was pretty old when Europeans started using it. The Chinese used woodblock printing around 200 AD, and the movable type by the 11th century, about four centuries earlier than Guttemberg. Also, the Chinese invented paper in antiquity, while in Europe and the Middle East, people were still using papyrus and vellum until the Arabs got the invention from the Chinese around 8th century. Europeans got access to paper much later. BTW many irreplaceable ancient works written on vellum were erased and overwritten (palimpsests) in the early middle ages because the Europeans did not know how to make paper.

Also.. the Chinese knew and used gunpowder very early on compared to the Europeans. True, they did not use cannons, but they had all sorts of crude missile type weapons and mines.

Much of what we attribute to Renassaince as being an European invention are Chinese, Arab or Indian discoveries made centuries before the Europeans, or are based on Arab sciences (even numerals, medicine or astronomy knowledge). People in Europe could not do even basic math until the indian-arab numerals including zero were introduced in the middle ages. In this time the Arabs were able to do quadratic equations and trigonometry

My point is that people tend to see Renaissance Europe as the most advanced civilization at that time, ignoring that Chinese, Arab, Persian, and Indian cultures were more advanced in many ways, and that Renaissance happened in Europe thanks to the influence of these cultures, and not the other way around.

I see Tamriel as a mix of historic cultures. You do get the impression that the Altmer are more advanced in every way than Bretons or Redguards. Also you see that Nords are less developed, the Dunmer have their own very distinct and sophisticated culture, while the Bosmer and Argonians are similar to native American cultures. The Imperials have a very distinct Roman Empire vibe, while the Bretons are closest to the "medieval Europe" stereotype, which is fine. Even their churces are very similar to the gothic chatedrals of Western Europe. It's a shame that you can't properly join one of the many Breton knightly order like in Daggerfall (TES2).

MaleAmazon

Agree with OP. Now, ESO is far from the worst offender in this department, but it does suffer from the almost endemic disease among designers called 'addmoreitis'.

"Look this lovely longsword! Now, if we just add some nonsensical barbs to it..."

"This is a great dagger. Let me just add a distracting green glow to it."

"Nice shoulder pads. Let's just see how far up the scaling slider goes..."

Less is sometimes more.

eklhaftb16_ESO

Michae wrote: »

And on the topic TES games never had realistic gear, I don't see why they should do it now.

"Never" is a bit exaggerated. Daggerfall still had mostly realistic gear. Designers didn't really go crazy with clumsy and unwieldy stuff until Morrowind.

The worst offender are bows in Skyrim, though. Apparently, nobody ever told the designers that the bow limbs are supposed to be flexible.

Gundug

I can put up with weird weapon designs. The thing that bothers me the most about weapons in this game is they are all scaled around 1.25 - 1.5 times actual size with respect to the character scale. It’s easy to see this in particular with the grips of single handed weapons being way too thick and able to fit two hands, and seeing daggers as long as short swords.

I have always assumed this is so players can more easily make out what type of weapon is being used from a distance, and to show the details of the weapon, but the characters look comical, rather than cool to my eye.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Gundug wrote: »

I can put up with weird weapon designs. The thing that bothers me the most about weapons in this game is they are all scaled around 1.25 - 1.5 times actual size with respect to the character scale. It’s easy to see this in particular with the grips of single handed weapons being way too thick and able to fit two hands, and seeing daggers as long as short swords.

I have always assumed this is so players can more easily make out what type of weapon is being used from a distance, and to show the details of the weapon, but the characters look comical, rather than cool to my eye.

This is one of my main issues with the weapons in game, the oversizing. I can't fathom why people want even bigger weapons. We have daggers the size of swords, longswords the size of greatswords, and don't get me started on the maces and mauls. Several of those would snap from their own weight and be almost impossible to swing.

MaxJrFTW

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Preview the weapons to see what fits your pajamas....

The new style page rewards Knight of the Circle in PvP will satiate your appetite.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-tyFg0lrto8

Thnx @Tianlein for showing off this style and many others for peeps, peeping owo

For the most TESO is being realistically to TESO with the cool factor that most of us love.

You have to do Cyrodiil for it. I'm a PvPer, and i don't go to Cyrodiil, so i can't even begin to imagine for PvErs feel about this.

Morgha_Kul

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Preview the weapons to see what fits your pajamas....

The new style page rewards Knight of the Circle in PvP will satiate your appetite.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-tyFg0lrto8

Thnx @Tianlein for showing off this style and many others for peeps, peeping owo

For the most TESO is being realistically to TESO with the cool factor that most of us love.

You have to do Cyrodiil for it. I'm a PvPer, and i don't go to Cyrodiil, so i can't even begin to imagine for PvErs feel about this.

Really? They're locking it behind PvP? I have to assume it can be sold on the guild traders, but that's still not acceptable.

TheShadowScout

kind_hero wrote: »

Regarding the printing press...

Only had that because it was used as example.
Remember why I am posting there, because I disagree with the:

zaria wrote: »

Disagree here, say TES is late renaissance level, you have things like...

...notion. And all I am saying is, Tamriel is definitely not "three musketeers" renaissance, but more like "crusader knights, viking raids, mongol hordes" early to mid medieval in general technology theme. With some advancements scattered here and there, true, but overall... classic "medieval fantasy" and definitely not "renassiance fantasy"! (which would be cool all by itself, but... isn't ESO)

kind_hero wrote: »

Also.. the Chinese knew and used gunpowder very early on compared to the Europeans.

Indeed.
Again, I was just trying to point out that the general theme of the setting.
And a case -could- be mande that the people in tamriel have magic, which is... kinda a bit like guns. Small "hand-case" spells, bigger "staff-cast" spells, and there are definitely "knock down your house" kind of rituals as well... pretty much comparable to pistols, rifles and cannons, right?

And the rise of gunpower DID play one very, very important role that shaped the "picture" of renassiance - the decline of heavy armor. Something that -clearly- has yet to happen in ESO, or in TES games set a thousand years later, so... there is that.

kind_hero wrote: »

My point is that people tend to see Renaissance Europe as the most advanced civilization at that time, ignoring that Chinese, Arab, Persian, and Indian cultures were more advanced in many ways, and that Renaissance happened in Europe thanks to the influence of these cultures, and not the other way around.

Agreed!
One of the -major- things that made the renaiisance possible is that religion lost influence, and suddenly all those "heathen" thoughts were no longer blasphemous, but worthy of consideration (and imitation).
The way I see it, the renassiance is the -end- of an artificially induced limitation on reason... a catching up if you will on what was lost during the collapse of antiquity with the decline of the roman empire, the dark times where the region was in total chaos, and the so-so times of the middle ages where religion was a two-edged sword, on one hand preserving some things from the old times that probably would have been lost otherwise, but also stifling growth out of fear about "blasphemous thoughts" and all that. (and the drive to secure their own powerbase...)

kind_hero wrote: »

I see Tamriel as a mix of historic cultures.

Yeah, definitely.
Although, all within the same "mediaval-ish" range, or below that development level (Reachmen, Argonians, Bosmer... Gobbos...)
The altmer may be a bit more "refined", and the nords a bit more "barbaric style", but when it comes down to it, their development is not that far off (the altmer do have a huge advantage though from living in a very fertile part of tamriel, where they can get by with a lot less effort then feeding themselves as the nords... and thus have more time to spend on other pursuits. Also, they have been around a lot longer... tho that is also a bit of a iffy thing, because considering HOW many millenia they have been around, they are clearly stagnating...)
Even the empire which is very "roman-themed" is often showing a medieval-ish flair in gear and such... one of the things that makes it fun, the version of "what if the roman empire had never fallen?" (though of course in ESO... well... it just did. Fall that is. Mainstory wise anyhow)
And the nords may have that "viking barbarians" flair... but when you get down to it, their development is not that behind compared to the others, a bit more rough and unpolished, but they obviously can keep up when it comes to crafting and such... even if they DO use more furs then dunmer tailors might consider civilized. (but then, that is a dunmer thing, they like to consider -everyone- who isn't dunmer some sort of uncivilized outlander N'wah! )

kind_hero

TheShadowScout wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Also.. the Chinese knew and used gunpowder very early on compared to the Europeans.

Indeed.
Again, I was just trying to point out that the general theme of the setting.
And a case -could- be mande that the people in tamriel have magic, which is... kinda a bit like guns. Small "hand-case" spells, bigger "staff-cast" spells, and there are definitely "knock down your house" kind of rituals as well... pretty much comparable to pistols, rifles and cannons, right?

And the rise of gunpower DID play one very, very important role that shaped the "picture" of renassiance - the decline of heavy armor. Something that -clearly- has yet to happen in ESO, or in TES games set a thousand years later, so... there is that.

kind_hero wrote: »

My point is that people tend to see Renaissance Europe as the most advanced civilization at that time, ignoring that Chinese, Arab, Persian, and Indian cultures were more advanced in many ways, and that Renaissance happened in Europe thanks to the influence of these cultures, and not the other way around.

Agreed!
One of the -major- things that made the renaiisance possible is that religion lost influence, and suddenly all those "heathen" thoughts were no longer blasphemous, but worthy of consideration (and imitation).
The way I see it, the renassiance is the -end- of an artificially induced limitation on reason... a catching up if you will on what was lost during the collapse of antiquity with the decline of the roman empire, the dark times where the region was in total chaos, and the so-so times of the middle ages where religion was a two-edged sword, on one hand preserving some things from the old times that probably would have been lost otherwise, but also stifling growth out of fear about "blasphemous thoughts" and all that. (and the drive to secure their own powerbase...)

True, we can imagine that battle magic is somehow like the canons that broke the walls of Constantinopole. They were a game changer. Here spells tend to be less destructive because it is a mmo, so players can't blast 100 soldiers with a giant fireball (wouldn't that be fun?)

Heavy armor did not decline until 16-17th century, because it was still effective against pistol/musket fire. Even in the 18th century towards the early 18th century, cavalry used a cuirass steel breastplate which was tested against real musket shots.

This is Prince Eugene de Savoy's armor (early 18th century) on which you can see the bullet marks

I disagree that Renaissance took place because religion lost influence, on the contrary, the Inquisition started during the Renaissance, and the church was stronger than ever. Besides, most of the universities started around abbeys because the church kept most of the books and knowledge back then, including forbiden books. Actually, a pope is responsible for introducing to Europe the indo-arab numerals we use today (Silvester II). However the church imposed certain views which slowed down research, but it also had interest in sciences. The Renaissance happened mostly because of trade which brought ideas from the other civilizations, and also because of the fall or decline of two major civilizations, the Arabs and the Romans (Byzantines). In Spain, the Reconquista pushed the Moors outside the Iberian Peninsula and thus aquired many tehnologies and much knowledge from the more advanced Moors. After the decline of the Arab civilization their knowledge reached Europe through trade and refugees (running from the Mongol hordes), same happened when the Byzantines were pushed back and conquered. An other cause is that by early Renaissance, the Ottomans owned the Silk Route, cutting off the European powers from their trade to Asia. The Ottomans were also controlling the Mediteranean, so this forced the West to improve navigation and find another route to "the Indies". All this progress was motivated by trade. The telescope, the clock, the chronometer, the cosmic theories, gravity and so on, were important technologies or physics needed for deep sea navigation. Developing those technologies required new sciences and this need created a golden age of discoveries. The church was still pretty vigilant, especially when new theories started to claim the universe looks different.

For the question "what if the roman empire had never fallen" you have the Eastern Roman Empire, now known as the Byzantines, which were around until 1453. They have never called themselves Byzantines, but Romans, and they were the continuators of Rome even though they spoke Greek.

One of the things which is odd in fantasy is how civilizations stagnate for millenia, despite using certain technology (metallurgy, chemistry, navigation, paper, etc) which would allow accelerated progress. But if you consider that Tamriel has periodic apocalyptic events such as the planemeld, oblivion crisis, hostile dragons, mad cults, vengeful daedric lords, it's no wonder they are still in a late "bronze age" stage.

Vyvrhel

Guys I am glad to get so many responses and most of you come with an interesting info or insight. However what surprises me is the amount of people who get trigered by a simple request to add ONE MORE model to the game. The guy who called me a racist aside (some people ten to say "you are a racist" instead of "I do not like you" or "I disagree"), at least 3 of you told me to go to play another game? Why? Do you realize I ask for just one more model, while I do not want to remove anything or rework anything existing?

Vyvrhel

kind_hero wrote: »

However, what do you mean by "medieval"?

A very good question and you are indeed right. So lets say that Kust des Fechtens dates roughly from 14th to 16th century, and since I said medieval, lets make it a 14 - 15th century then.
However I believe you suggest that saying medieval was not the best idea and here I fully agree. What I had to say was functional or realistic. Meaning a relatively slender and balanced blade, wide and straight or slightly forward bend crossguard and a hilt free of oversized crystals, spikes etc.

Anyway most fantasy genres freely mix longswords, bows, crossbows, rapiers, arming swords and shields with knightly armor, even jousting armor used on feet, plus all kind of Japanese blades. I do not have a problem with that at all, I just prefer the functional shapes.

Vyvrhel

kind_hero wrote: »

I disagree that Renaissance took place because religion lost influence, on the contrary, the Inquisition started during the Renaissance, and the church was stronger than ever. Besides, most of the universities started around abbeys because the church kept most of the books and knowledge back then, including forbiden books. Actually, a pope is responsible for introducing to Europe the indo-arab numerals we use today (Silvester II). However the church imposed certain views which slowed down research, but it also had interest in sciences. The Renaissance happened mostly because of trade which brought ideas from the other civilizations, and also because of the fall or decline of two major civilizations, the Arabs and the Romans (Byzantines).

Very well put but since we talk weaponry, I would prefer to follow the technology trail. The most significant game changers were two. First, the end of the heavy cavalry dominanceand the rise of elite heavy infantry, ie Swiss and landsknechts, second (tied to the first) firearms and dawn of bows and crossbows.
As for the firearms, it started with hussites back in 13th century, and it also trigerred the decline of armored horsemen, culminating in renaissance with landsknechts.

kind_hero

Vyvrhel wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

I disagree that Renaissance took place because religion lost influence, on the contrary, the Inquisition started during the Renaissance, and the church was stronger than ever. Besides, most of the universities started around abbeys because the church kept most of the books and knowledge back then, including forbiden books. Actually, a pope is responsible for introducing to Europe the indo-arab numerals we use today (Silvester II). However the church imposed certain views which slowed down research, but it also had interest in sciences. The Renaissance happened mostly because of trade which brought ideas from the other civilizations, and also because of the fall or decline of two major civilizations, the Arabs and the Romans (Byzantines).

Very well put but since we talk weaponry, I would prefer to follow the technology trail. The most significant game changers were two. First, the end of the heavy cavalry dominanceand the rise of elite heavy infantry, ie Swiss and landsknechts, second (tied to the first) firearms and dawn of bows and crossbows.
As for the firearms, it started with hussites back in 13th century, and it also trigerred the decline of armored horsemen, culminating in renaissance with landsknechts.

Sorry for derailing your thread, wasn't my intention, but the discussion was interesting enough to make some comments.

I agree with you that we need some more functional weapon designs.

I am trying to avoid "realistic" because this somehow triggers people who consider that realism does not mix with fantasy.

And I am going to expand this a bit: realism is such that even in ESO a humanoid character has two arms, which move following the human anatomy. So, with this "realism" in mind, two human hands can't properly wield some of the bulky sword/maul/axe designs in this game (see below), especially since these weapons are not magical (we see they are made from metals) and thus we are not shown they behave differently than an ordinary melee weapon (like the lightsaber in SW).

Unfortunately, with the content will see this year (more nords and vampires), it is unlikely you will see a simple clean one handed sword, but more bulky nord designs or fangs/spikes themed vampire motifs.

MattVH

I agree. There are more and more ridiculous models being released and I often feel like sticking with the lower tier and vanilla (2014) weapon styles because they just keep getting more insane with every motif release. Two handers are the worst. The armors are getting better at least.

The models are one thing though, it's the size that is most ridiculous. Damn the size of all weapons is beyond crazy. Only the lower tier axes, maces look acceptable and only swords like redguard scimitars, vanilla nord style and the blue dragon slayer sword look kinda normal. It's all just large ass weapons that look like they go "squeack" when you'd hit something... Well or 'snap'. At least the new thane style incoming with Greymoor has a normal axe

TheShadowScout

kind_hero wrote: »

Heavy armor did not decline until 16-17th century, because it was still effective against pistol/musket fire. Even in the 18th century towards the early 18th century, cavalry used a cuirass steel breastplate which was tested against real musket shots.

That is exactly what I mean.
When I say "heavy armor declined" I mean the fully armored knights that were the poster boys of the middle ages went out of favor, because they simply weren't worth the resources needed when faced with pikeman formations and even moreso massed ranks of cheap musketeers.

Cavalry changed from fully armored heavy cavalry to much lighter and way more moblile "Cuirassier" types that only wore breastplate and helmet, and went for fast flanking attacks instead a frontal charge... and yes, -those- kept in favor until the end of the 19th century (but very quickly were shown to have become painfully obsolete when machine guns became a battlefield weapon in the 20th...)

And those developments in turn changed the swords people used... suddenly you didn't want to have a big, heavy can-opener, you wanted a quick thrusting sword for self defense, because most people weren't turtoises anymore...

kind_hero wrote: »

I disagree that Renaissance took place because religion lost influence, on the contrary, the Inquisition started during the Renaissance, and the church was stronger than ever.

Not quite.
The inquisition as a general idea actually started in 12th century... but -expanded- in the wake of the protestant movement during the late middle ages and early renaissance (I am sure noone expected that... )
It was exactly the kind of heavy-handed move that pretty much stiffened the backbone of all the people who had their doubts about the catholic church. Because they felt they no longer had anything to loose, and the church had shown their "dark side" openly... and of course, it -was- exactly that, a heavy handed move to suppress free thought daring to question church doctrine.
By all accounts, Luther only wanted to start discussion when he came up with his thesis... but we all know it went in a somewhat unexpected diraction. And yes, the inquisition was amped up as a reflex reaction to that, out of fear the reformation might spread and cost the catholic chuirch even more believers... but it -only- gained in prominence -because- of the church becoming scared at their doctrinal power leaking away!

As for the church being stronger...
...look at the middle ages, where a pope could bring a king to his knees through excommunication.
...now look at the renaissance, where several kings pretty much gave the pope the finger and didn't even stumble.
Heck, one of them pretty much went like "eff the pope, Imma gonne make my own church instead..." - think that sort of thing would have been a thing during the "crusade for fun and salvation!" middle ages?

kind_hero wrote: »

Besides, most of the universities started around abbeys because the church kept most of the books and knowledge back then, including forbiden books.

Exactly.
And their contribution to preserving knowledge that might otherwise have been lost cannot be ignored, tho it does not really absolve them from suppressing exactly that either.

kind_hero wrote: »

The Renaissance happened mostly because of trade which brought ideas from the other civilizations, and also because of the fall or decline of two major civilizations...

Wrong premise.
Trade had happened all the time before as well. From viking traiders (a mix between trader and raider... they'd trade if you were too strong to raid, raid if you were not tough enough...) to byzantine caravans, there had always been trade over borders.

So why were those foreign ideas not picked up earlier? Who resisted that? Hmmm?

But yeah, that was the vector through which the change came, once the reformation movement and internal difficulties had weakened the doctrinal hold of the catholic church for foreign ideas to actually be considered without fear of excommunication and reprisal for "heresy".

I reckon, the war also helped. People in europe had just finished a whole generation killing each other not about which god to worship, but how to worship that god... and they were so sick of it, even the -catholic- cardinal of france told the pope off when rome tried to send him and the french as the next beater to contine the fight against the protestants.

THAT in my opinion as the event that showed -everyone- that the world had changed, and that people who DID pick up new ideas would no longer be pressured to recant on pain of getting burned at the stake. That was when the renassiance became irreversibe methinks.

kind_hero wrote: »

the Reconquista pushed the Moors outside the Iberian Peninsula

...during the late 15th century...
(and the reconquista and accompanies "clenase all the heathens, and the heretics too while we're at it, we must become oh, so holy" was one of the driving force behind the spanish inquisition)

kind_hero wrote: »

...refugees (running from the Mongol hordes)

...in the early 13th century...
(quite a bit earlier then the end of the middle ages, and if the khan didn't drop dead right there, they might have eaten eastern europe aline as well!)

kind_hero wrote: »

when the Byzantines were pushed back and conquered.

...in the late 15 century again.
(Altho they had been in decline and beset by arab conquerors nibbling away at the edges since the 11th century - the cruaders sacking Constantinople in 1204 probably didn't help either...)

kind_hero wrote: »

The Ottomans were also controlling the Mediteranean

...from the late 14th century until the battle of Lepanto in the late 16th century... they never really recovered from that, tho they still remained a power to be wary of.

kind_hero wrote: »

For the question "what if the roman empire had never fallen" you have the Eastern Roman Empire, now known as the Byzantines, which were around until 1453. They have never called themselves Byzantines, but Romans, and they were the continuators of Rome even though they spoke Greek.

Well, I was referring to a undivided roman empire. There are several "alternate reality" premises on the notion... you know missle ages with the roman empire in europe, though if it never fell there would not have been any middle ages, just humanity skipping a millenia of dark ages, and progressing straight into the industrial revolution some daydream about... it is a interesting thought. And I always say the cyrodillic empire are a little like that - "medieval romans"

kind_hero wrote: »

One of the things which is odd in fantasy is how civilizations stagnate for millenia, despite using certain technology (metallurgy, chemistry, navigation, paper, etc) which would allow accelerated progress. But if you consider that Tamriel has periodic apocalyptic events such as the planemeld, oblivion crisis, hostile dragons, mad cults, vengeful daedric lords, it's no wonder they are still in a late "bronze age" stage.

Yeah. Usually we can blame actual divine (and daedric) intervention for that.
Also magic. I mean, if a working magic system existed, all the smart people would study magic instead of advancings cience. And you know what happend when they study magic too much, right?
"...there once was a bright magical caster..."
"...who learned the arts faster and faster..."
"...but what can it mean..."
"...that he was nevermore seen..."
"...when he went to go summoning Hast-URP"

xTAKISx

kind_hero wrote: »

[*] The Silver Dawn dagger is very similar to a Hellenic Xiphos

Fixed it for ya.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

FACT: You do not know how heavy the materials that were used to make these weapons are, tell me how heavy is Ebony or Moonstone or whatever half of these FANTASY materials are called are? what is that you cannot give me an answer? exactly..

FACT: Just because your too weak to wield it does not mean a Vampire with a strength of a dozen men cannot.

ZarkingFrued

Why tho? These weapons are realistic to the fake universe created. This isn't real life, and it's not even based on Earth history. The game is fun because it's not real life.

Sylvermynx

LordVox wrote: »

I want to see some bigger shields. I hate the shields in this game.

I believe I mentioned (in reply) my Breton:

NotaDaedraWorshipper

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

FACT: You do not know how heavy the materials that were used to make these weapons are, tell me how heavy is Ebony or Moonstone or whatever half of these FANTASY materials are called are? what is that you cannot give me an answer? exactly..

FACT: Just because your too weak to wield it does not mean a Vampire with a strength of a dozen men cannot.

The races of man and mer have no sign of being stronger than normal people, most of the weapons are still made by normal material like steel, and I'm pretty damn sure the smiths of Elder Scrolls don't design their weapons to be wielded by some vampire unless it's a custom design job.

Suspension of disbelief is a thing. Which doesn't mean we shall completely throw away logic and reason because "fantasy" or "magic" or whatever the setting has. It's to ignore those things that breaks the rules of real life logic but follows the intern rules of the setting. Such as magic can do this and that, that creature can somehow live, vampirism is a disease, strange machines etc.
Things can break those intern rules and it can't just be explained with magic if it goes beyond what has been determined. Elder Scrolls have throughout the games no oversized weapons a la Warcraft or Anime. It goes against a rule of the setting to make very oversized weapons suddenly.

StormeReigns

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

FACT: You do not know how heavy the materials that were used to make these weapons are, tell me how heavy is Ebony or Moonstone or whatever half of these FANTASY materials are called are? what is that you cannot give me an answer? exactly..

FACT: Just because your too weak to wield it does not mean a Vampire with a strength of a dozen men cannot.

I know that me and the op @Vyvrhel started off on a wrong foot on certain aspects. But they have not indicate what so ever the player character being strong or weak enough to wield the current weapons (or the ones they want introduced) at all. Nor have they complain what material they are made from. They expressed their opinion on designs and more or less functionality of said designs and said sizes as certain shapes.

As well... what does eso vampire (and your head canon of their strength) have to do with introducing additional weapon styles that match more historical realistic weapons?

MattVH

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Why tho? These weapons are realistic to the fake universe created. This isn't real life, and it's not even based on Earth history. The game is fun because it's not real life.

To make things believable and mostly, to some of us, make it look better that way. Fantasy movies might have dragons, magic and the like, you still see Lord of the Rings and game of thrones use normal weapons armor and horses

Mitrenga

I'm at a loss. Made up races, made up universe, made up lands, made up creatures... And we want realistic weapon models? Realistic, in terms of what?
All weapons and armors in the game are serving their purpose. Design decisions are completely on the designers.
If you want a design close to the real world counterparts of the items, there are many motifs in the game. I'm sure you find something close to your liking.

Curious_Death

give more realism to a fantasy based mmo-rpg... yeah sure and force santa along with joda to work on ZOS side also - maybe we get better servers.