Nerf jabs

technohic

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I think some people here may not be realizing that not all situations are the same in terms of going against jabs/sweeps.

A Stam build in a CP environment wouldn’t find it too difficult to deal with it. Just block or roll through it and apply your damage.

But what about a Magicka build in no-CP? If this starts with a Toppling Charge, you’ve got to spend like 5400 stamina to break free. Then you have to roll through it? If you’re at only half stamina or so at the start, then you can’t even roll once and you’ll die because Jabs/Sweeps out-DPSes anything a magicka player has. And you certainly won’t be able to roll through it more than like one more time. Anyways, if you’ve broken free and dodge rolled once or twice, you’d better have somehow gotten the Templar on their back foot before your stun immunity wears off, because you definitely won’t have the stamina to break free and dodge roll again. Doing that probably requires using an ultimate or getting a lucky proc from a proc set, which isn’t balanced if that’s what you need to rely on to beat a spammable. Meanwhile, if you run away from the Jabs/Sweeps with an ability like Streak or Elusive Mist or Race Against Time, then they can just immediately gap close you unless you’ve gotten around a corner. You also don’t really have easy access to Major Evasion on most magicka builds.

Basically, Jabs/Sweeps are not so hard to counter in some situations, but with magicka characters in no-CP they actually are quite hard to deal with. You won’t have the stamina to keep avoiding them and break free, you will almost certainly lose a fight against them if you stand your ground, and they can pretty easily gap close you if you try to run away.

You need to do that with most classes on you. A MagDK will stun and root you in one ability.

MagDKs are hard to deal with for Magicka characters in no-CP for that exact reason. But there is a difference. If you’re out of stamina for dodge rolling and basically just have to stand and fight, you can beat a MagDK. A MagDK simply cant output the kind of sustained damage that Jabs/Sweeps can. Not even close. Same goes for every other Magicka class. Jabs/Sweeps with Burning Light provides sustained damage much greater than anything non-Templar magicka classes can do. It’s basically the equivalent of an ultimate or a delayed burst ability every single second. For example, on equal stats, a full Jabs/Sweeps with a Burning Light proc does roughly equal damage to the Merciless Resolve proc or a fully charged Molten Whip or a Ferocious Leap.

Because Jabs/Sweeps with Burning Light do so much sustained damage, you basically have to kite it or have Major Evasion to actually beat it, and magicka characters in no-CP can’t really do either (aside from Magblades having access to major evasion). The only other hope you usually have if the Templar is decent is to get some kind of huge burst, likely with help of an ultimate or lucky procs of proc sets. It can be done, but relying on that to beat a spammable isn’t exactly balanced, since they could also use their own ultimates and whatnot. And bursting people from full health to zero in no-CP is much harder than in CP anyways.

I play a lot of magicka characters in no-CP. And honestly, unless I’m on my own Magplar, when faced with a Templar in BGs, here’s what I basically have to do: I try rolling through the Jabs/Sweeps. If a player is bad, that can confuse them and give me enough of an opening to punish them. If they show themselves to be decent players though, I basically just stun them and run away around a corner unless either I’ve got teammates with me or an ultimate up.

And by the way, this is coming from someone whose most-played character by far is a Magplar. I like Sweeps a lot when I use them, of course, but they really do wreck magicka characters in no-CP.

Lol magdk may not be in the best spot, but it shouldn't have a problem once you are out of stam because you then are not blocking that leap that's about to dunk on you.

coletas

ecru wrote: »

fun fact #1: jabs does roughly equal damage to blastbones and warden's shalks, and 20% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #2: jabs with a burning light proc does 35% more damage than blastbones and shalks and 70% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #3: each full channel of jabs has about a 70% chance to proc burning light.

fun fact #4: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs and a burning light proc will do 15% more damage than blastbones and shalks.

fun fact #5: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs will do 95% as much damage as dizzying swing.

fun fact #6: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only three ticks and a burning light proc will do 40% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #7: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only two ticks and a burning light proc will still do 10% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #8: one channel of jabs and a burning light proc has the highest damage ceiling of any non conditional/non damage over time ability besides take flight, which only does 1% more damage than jabs + burning light. no, i'm not kidding. you can do as much damage as a DK's biggest damaging ult, the ability with the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, with one channel of templar's spammable and it's proc that shows up ~70% of the time. this includes executes like killer's blade, which still don't rival jabs and a burning light proc on a target under 25%. hit a button, use a 1s channel, do as much damage as a 110 cost ult. that makes sense.

jabs is already hilariously overtuned compared to every other spammable in the game, and it gets completely ridiculous when you factor in burning light procs.

so yeah nerf jabs. i know, i know. every templar has already posted or is about to post how terrible jabs is, how unreliable it is, how it's literally impossible to use (despite all of them using it), or whatever else. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter at all because it's ceiling is too high, so when it works like it's supposed to, it's way, way too good, and completely throws balance out of the window. major evasion should not be a requirement in pvp because one class has a spammable that has a ceiling higher than almost every ult in the entire game.

dizzling swings hits 100% of time. In cyro, to hit a complete jabs channeling to anyone, he has to be making coffee on the kitchen.
And is not (by far) the worst spammable lol... molten whip, warden birds, blastbones (i would prefer that secured Major defile instead of a burning light... 70% lol, have u ever used a templar before? with 70% burning light nobody would play other class lol) .... the only problem is that you keep there, eating all 4 jabs every time. Is an extremely easy skill to counter, specially with lag. No matter then Nerf % you ask for, if you are dying today being jabbed, you Will be with less damage too

Deathlord92

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

Edziu

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

still better than elder nightblades online
here you alteast see most of your opponents xD

Deathlord92

Edziu wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

still better than elder nightblades online
here you alteast see most of your opponents xD

Prefer nb meta it’s all I play even now so countering nbs is easy lol we should get major fracture back on surprise attack imo mainly because of tanky builds.

Edziu

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

still better than elder nightblades online
here you alteast see most of your opponents xD

Prefer nb meta it’s all I play even now so countering nbs is easy lol we should get major fracture back on surprise attack imo mainly because of tanky builds.

I was maining NB for years since beta, got sick of it but I keep knowledge about this class like for others
I never like to play against nb even when I was nb myself xD they was most annyoing to fight because of their hiding, not like it was so big big problem...it was...it is just most annyoing thing in pvp and so I never like them to fight agains - again I will write it xD - even when I was pleying myself as nb xD

technohic

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

still better than elder nightblades online
here you alteast see most of your opponents xD

Prefer nb meta it’s all I play even now so countering nbs is easy lol we should get major fracture back on surprise attack imo mainly because of tanky builds.

I want defile on the stam ulti again and no cast time (on any of them really) for my NB. And I honestly would like to see all instant melee spammables on jabs level in different ways.

RiskyChalice863

technohic wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I think some people here may not be realizing that not all situations are the same in terms of going against jabs/sweeps.

A Stam build in a CP environment wouldn’t find it too difficult to deal with it. Just block or roll through it and apply your damage.

But what about a Magicka build in no-CP? If this starts with a Toppling Charge, you’ve got to spend like 5400 stamina to break free. Then you have to roll through it? If you’re at only half stamina or so at the start, then you can’t even roll once and you’ll die because Jabs/Sweeps out-DPSes anything a magicka player has. And you certainly won’t be able to roll through it more than like one more time. Anyways, if you’ve broken free and dodge rolled once or twice, you’d better have somehow gotten the Templar on their back foot before your stun immunity wears off, because you definitely won’t have the stamina to break free and dodge roll again. Doing that probably requires using an ultimate or getting a lucky proc from a proc set, which isn’t balanced if that’s what you need to rely on to beat a spammable. Meanwhile, if you run away from the Jabs/Sweeps with an ability like Streak or Elusive Mist or Race Against Time, then they can just immediately gap close you unless you’ve gotten around a corner. You also don’t really have easy access to Major Evasion on most magicka builds.

Basically, Jabs/Sweeps are not so hard to counter in some situations, but with magicka characters in no-CP they actually are quite hard to deal with. You won’t have the stamina to keep avoiding them and break free, you will almost certainly lose a fight against them if you stand your ground, and they can pretty easily gap close you if you try to run away.

You need to do that with most classes on you. A MagDK will stun and root you in one ability.

MagDKs are hard to deal with for Magicka characters in no-CP for that exact reason. But there is a difference. If you’re out of stamina for dodge rolling and basically just have to stand and fight, you can beat a MagDK. A MagDK simply cant output the kind of sustained damage that Jabs/Sweeps can. Not even close. Same goes for every other Magicka class. Jabs/Sweeps with Burning Light provides sustained damage much greater than anything non-Templar magicka classes can do. It’s basically the equivalent of an ultimate or a delayed burst ability every single second. For example, on equal stats, a full Jabs/Sweeps with a Burning Light proc does roughly equal damage to the Merciless Resolve proc or a fully charged Molten Whip or a Ferocious Leap.

Because Jabs/Sweeps with Burning Light do so much sustained damage, you basically have to kite it or have Major Evasion to actually beat it, and magicka characters in no-CP can’t really do either (aside from Magblades having access to major evasion). The only other hope you usually have if the Templar is decent is to get some kind of huge burst, likely with help of an ultimate or lucky procs of proc sets. It can be done, but relying on that to beat a spammable isn’t exactly balanced, since they could also use their own ultimates and whatnot. And bursting people from full health to zero in no-CP is much harder than in CP anyways.

I play a lot of magicka characters in no-CP. And honestly, unless I’m on my own Magplar, when faced with a Templar in BGs, here’s what I basically have to do: I try rolling through the Jabs/Sweeps. If a player is bad, that can confuse them and give me enough of an opening to punish them. If they show themselves to be decent players though, I basically just stun them and run away around a corner unless either I’ve got teammates with me or an ultimate up.

And by the way, this is coming from someone whose most-played character by far is a Magplar. I like Sweeps a lot when I use them, of course, but they really do wreck magicka characters in no-CP.

Lol magdk may not be in the best spot, but it shouldn't have a problem once you are out of stam because you then are not blocking that leap that's about to dunk on you.

That is true. But that also requires use of an ultimate. Also, in no-CP, a Ferocious Leap and Molten Whip combo isn’t generally going to do more than like 50% damage to someone who isn’t super glass cannon. That can be negated by a fight reset ult like the resto ult, and then suddenly the MagDK isn’t quite so scary (or at least not as scary as a Templar spamming Jabs/Sweeps when you’ve got no stamina).

And for reference, Jabs/Sweeps with a Burning Light proc does the same sort of damage per GCD as Ferocious Leap (even considering passives and assuming Engulfing Flames is up) and fully charged Molten Whip. So a Templar can basically drain someone’s stamina and then consistently put up damage equivalent to a MagDKs delayed burst + ultimate burst combo. It’s a lot stronger, because it’s not a burst window followed by lower damage, but rather a constant stream of really high DPS.

Again, I don’t say this as a complaint. It’s true that Templars are probably my toughest class to fight, but I also main a Magplar. I just can recognize from both the experience of playing my own characters and how difficult it is to play against different classes that Templars spamming Jabs/Sweeps are really tough for magicka classes to deal with in no-CP.

Joinovikova

coletas wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

fun fact #1: jabs does roughly equal damage to blastbones and warden's shalks, and 20% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #2: jabs with a burning light proc does 35% more damage than blastbones and shalks and 70% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #3: each full channel of jabs has about a 70% chance to proc burning light.

fun fact #4: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs and a burning light proc will do 15% more damage than blastbones and shalks.

fun fact #5: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs will do 95% as much damage as dizzying swing.

fun fact #6: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only three ticks and a burning light proc will do 40% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #7: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only two ticks and a burning light proc will still do 10% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #8: one channel of jabs and a burning light proc has the highest damage ceiling of any non conditional/non damage over time ability besides take flight, which only does 1% more damage than jabs + burning light. no, i'm not kidding. you can do as much damage as a DK's biggest damaging ult, the ability with the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, with one channel of templar's spammable and it's proc that shows up ~70% of the time. this includes executes like killer's blade, which still don't rival jabs and a burning light proc on a target under 25%. hit a button, use a 1s channel, do as much damage as a 110 cost ult. that makes sense.

jabs is already hilariously overtuned compared to every other spammable in the game, and it gets completely ridiculous when you factor in burning light procs.

so yeah nerf jabs. i know, i know. every templar has already posted or is about to post how terrible jabs is, how unreliable it is, how it's literally impossible to use (despite all of them using it), or whatever else. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter at all because it's ceiling is too high, so when it works like it's supposed to, it's way, way too good, and completely throws balance out of the window. major evasion should not be a requirement in pvp because one class has a spammable that has a ceiling higher than almost every ult in the entire game.

dizzling swings hits 100% of time. In cyro, to hit a complete jabs channeling to anyone, he has to be making coffee on the kitchen.
And is not (by far) the worst spammable lol... molten whip, warden birds, blastbones (i would prefer that secured Major defile instead of a burning light... 70% lol, have u ever used a templar before? with 70% burning light nobody would play other class lol) .... the only problem is that you keep there, eating all 4 jabs every time. Is an extremely easy skill to counter, specially with lag. No matter then Nerf % you ask for, if you are dying today being jabbed, you Will be with less damage too

Try also another class. Dizzy swing is 100% harder to hit and can be easily 100% denied not posible to jabs at least Part of the jabs will hit targer and jabs Jave 60% more dmg then dizzy so even you Leng Part of jabs it still stronger then any spamable. Lags helps mainly to templar To land full jabs. Because they reduce react time.. this skill must be nerf

relentless_turnip

Templars and in particular jabs are absolutely fine...

I main a MagDK and don't find them as OP as everyone claims. I have never played a templar past level 10 so I am in no way defending them.

I find Templar healing to be the hardest thing to counter. I save my fossilize for when they are below 50% health so you can stop them healing back to full. Other than that... never have many problems.

Jabs are constant pressure which I think can cause a bit of panic, like any class you just need to return that pressure and push them of their offensive.
A MagDk is nearly always screwed when they forced onto their backbar, where as a templar has reset buttons
That is fine though as these are defining traits of each class. A Templar is a healing class and a MagDK is rewarded with resource for being on the offensive.

I think maybe only their healing needs addressing, nothing wrong with their spammable. Even their healing doesn't bother me though....

Here is a video from last weekends PvP I fought at least 3 templars in it(some are clearly potatoes).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B9Hi0j4EQuM

Every build has a counter though and sometimes we notice that more prominently in a particular classes.
We need to learn to accept this or change our build, not ask for the game to change to our playstyle.
The amount of presumably glass cannons still complaining about nightblades is upsetting. The poor *** need a buff not more nerfs and Templars are in a good place, let's leave them there!

I imagine a lot of nerf requests will be centred around Stamcro this patch and will be unplayable in the next.
Everyone then complains at ZOS saying they can't balance a game after 6 years. Is it any wonder with the data they receive.

I would like to see class reps take more of an active role in culminating data from the community and that being presented to the dev's instead of everyone just posting they're latest death recaps. Perhaps an invite to the forums only comes after a year of play. It needs to be filtered in some way if we ever want "balance".

Lord-Otto

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

WoppaBoem

Templars are fine and yes i am biased as I now main a stamplar. I have no issue fighting other templars the only issue is magplar from 1% to 100% with 1 button over an over again. That is extreem. For the rest I think they function really well and don't see anything wrong with it. Match it up to a stamnecro, stamdk or stamwarden I would say these are all very balanced between the top stam classes for open world. On the magica side templars excel compared to any other class this is mainly magica overall is not in a good place. I would address there OP healing but thats it.

MagDK need better sustain.
Magwarden and MagNecro do not access to a good stun, bring back stun on Shock staff pretty please
Magblade are unique and good fighters will do good on them, no strong opinion there possible a better burst heal
Magsorc there in a good place, you need to dedicate yourself on the class and you do really well, little bit of love could be needed

Joinovikova

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

If u increase widely increase dmg you only help tank meta. There is only one solution how to fight tank meta change resistance reduction from exact number to % this is only way how to hit tank meta.

Joinovikova

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Templars and in particular jabs are absolutely fine...

I main a MagDK and don't find them as OP as everyone claims. I have never played a templar past level 10 so I am in no way defending them.

I find Templar healing to be the hardest thing to counter. I save my fossilize for when they are below 50% health so you can stop them healing back to full. Other than that... never have many problems.

Jabs are constant pressure which I think can cause a bit of panic, like any class you just need to return that pressure and push them of their offensive.
A MagDk is nearly always screwed when they forced onto their backbar, where as a templar has reset buttons
That is fine though as these are defining traits of each class. A Templar is a healing class and a MagDK is rewarded with resource for being on the offensive.

I think maybe only their healing needs addressing, nothing wrong with their spammable. Even their healing doesn't bother me though....

Here is a video from last weekends PvP I fought at least 3 templars in it(some are clearly potatoes).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B9Hi0j4EQuM

Every build has a counter though and sometimes we notice that more prominently in a particular classes.
We need to learn to accept this or change our build, not ask for the game to change to our playstyle.
The amount of presumably glass cannons still complaining about nightblades is upsetting. The poor *** need a buff not more nerfs and Templars are in a good place, let's leave them there!

I imagine a lot of nerf requests will be centred around Stamcro this patch and will be unplayable in the next.
Everyone then complains at ZOS saying they can't balance a game after 6 years. Is it any wonder with the data they receive.

I would like to see class reps take more of an active role in culminating data from the community and that being presented to the dev's instead of everyone just posting they're latest death recaps. Perhaps an invite to the forums only comes after a year of play. It needs to be filtered in some way if we ever want "balance".

This is mostly related to mmr reset after reset i also start understand why people cry about mag sorc and snipe build... they are brutal strong on low mmr..

technohic

Joinovikova wrote: »

coletas wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

fun fact #1: jabs does roughly equal damage to blastbones and warden's shalks, and 20% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #2: jabs with a burning light proc does 35% more damage than blastbones and shalks and 70% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #3: each full channel of jabs has about a 70% chance to proc burning light.

fun fact #4: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs and a burning light proc will do 15% more damage than blastbones and shalks.

fun fact #5: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs will do 95% as much damage as dizzying swing.

fun fact #6: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only three ticks and a burning light proc will do 40% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #7: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only two ticks and a burning light proc will still do 10% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #8: one channel of jabs and a burning light proc has the highest damage ceiling of any non conditional/non damage over time ability besides take flight, which only does 1% more damage than jabs + burning light. no, i'm not kidding. you can do as much damage as a DK's biggest damaging ult, the ability with the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, with one channel of templar's spammable and it's proc that shows up ~70% of the time. this includes executes like killer's blade, which still don't rival jabs and a burning light proc on a target under 25%. hit a button, use a 1s channel, do as much damage as a 110 cost ult. that makes sense.

jabs is already hilariously overtuned compared to every other spammable in the game, and it gets completely ridiculous when you factor in burning light procs.

so yeah nerf jabs. i know, i know. every templar has already posted or is about to post how terrible jabs is, how unreliable it is, how it's literally impossible to use (despite all of them using it), or whatever else. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter at all because it's ceiling is too high, so when it works like it's supposed to, it's way, way too good, and completely throws balance out of the window. major evasion should not be a requirement in pvp because one class has a spammable that has a ceiling higher than almost every ult in the entire game.

dizzling swings hits 100% of time. In cyro, to hit a complete jabs channeling to anyone, he has to be making coffee on the kitchen.
And is not (by far) the worst spammable lol... molten whip, warden birds, blastbones (i would prefer that secured Major defile instead of a burning light... 70% lol, have u ever used a templar before? with 70% burning light nobody would play other class lol) .... the only problem is that you keep there, eating all 4 jabs every time. Is an extremely easy skill to counter, specially with lag. No matter then Nerf % you ask for, if you are dying today being jabbed, you Will be with less damage too

Try also another class. Dizzy swing is 100% harder to hit and can be easily 100% denied not posible to jabs at least Part of the jabs will hit targer and jabs Jave 60% more dmg then dizzy so even you Leng Part of jabs it still stronger then any spamable. Lags helps mainly to templar To land full jabs. Because they reduce react time.. this skill must be nerf

If it really did 60% more damage, why do I not see a lot of threatening templars? I know it has potential to be strong but I dont see a lot of the meta chasers going templar. I only ever see a couple. Most templars are run of the mill fodder if you single them out. Now dizzy swing in other classes I see everywhere because other class spammable suck and only 2 magicka classes seem close to capable outside of coordinated group play.

If they nerf jabs/sweeps by much; it's just going to be the end of class spammable where everyone then is fully on dizzy swing unless it gets nerfed as well to where we get even deeper into this "tank" meta. And there will be one less magicka close to being useable as an independent, self sufficient build. Might even remove stamplar as they dont have the defense other classes do. The spammable having potential to do more damage is the only reason to run it.

technohic

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

I've brought this up and I get stuff like "jabs does as much damage as leap"

Joinovikova

technohic wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

I've brought this up and I get stuff like "jabs does as much damage as leap"

Hm if leap wíll be cheap spamable.... now lets nerf jabs to do only 120% dmg of dizzy, not 160% ..

BNOC

Joinovikova wrote: »

coletas wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

fun fact #1: jabs does roughly equal damage to blastbones and warden's shalks, and 20% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #2: jabs with a burning light proc does 35% more damage than blastbones and shalks and 70% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #3: each full channel of jabs has about a 70% chance to proc burning light.

fun fact #4: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs and a burning light proc will do 15% more damage than blastbones and shalks.

fun fact #5: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs will do 95% as much damage as dizzying swing.

fun fact #6: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only three ticks and a burning light proc will do 40% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #7: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only two ticks and a burning light proc will still do 10% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #8: one channel of jabs and a burning light proc has the highest damage ceiling of any non conditional/non damage over time ability besides take flight, which only does 1% more damage than jabs + burning light. no, i'm not kidding. you can do as much damage as a DK's biggest damaging ult, the ability with the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, with one channel of templar's spammable and it's proc that shows up ~70% of the time. this includes executes like killer's blade, which still don't rival jabs and a burning light proc on a target under 25%. hit a button, use a 1s channel, do as much damage as a 110 cost ult. that makes sense.

jabs is already hilariously overtuned compared to every other spammable in the game, and it gets completely ridiculous when you factor in burning light procs.

so yeah nerf jabs. i know, i know. every templar has already posted or is about to post how terrible jabs is, how unreliable it is, how it's literally impossible to use (despite all of them using it), or whatever else. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter at all because it's ceiling is too high, so when it works like it's supposed to, it's way, way too good, and completely throws balance out of the window. major evasion should not be a requirement in pvp because one class has a spammable that has a ceiling higher than almost every ult in the entire game.

dizzling swings hits 100% of time. In cyro, to hit a complete jabs channeling to anyone, he has to be making coffee on the kitchen.
And is not (by far) the worst spammable lol... molten whip, warden birds, blastbones (i would prefer that secured Major defile instead of a burning light... 70% lol, have u ever used a templar before? with 70% burning light nobody would play other class lol) .... the only problem is that you keep there, eating all 4 jabs every time. Is an extremely easy skill to counter, specially with lag. No matter then Nerf % you ask for, if you are dying today being jabbed, you Will be with less damage too

Try also another class. Dizzy swing is 100% harder to hit and can be easily 100% denied not posible to jabs at least Part of the jabs will hit targer and jabs Jave 60% more dmg then dizzy so even you Leng Part of jabs it still stronger then any spamable. Lags helps mainly to templar To land full jabs. Because they reduce react time.. this skill must be nerf

Lag makes jabs very difficult to land.
Simple enemy movement or jumping, affects jabs massively.
Jabs are not doing 60% more damage than dizzy.
Jabs are among the skills that face the most mitigation - brp is about a straight 55% reduction, on its own.

Give Templar an unblockable cc like everyone else has.
Stop mitigating us so much with *** ass sets like brp - which btw, why that was removed from ripostes 5 set and slapped onto a 2h stam set with easier trigger conditions, I have no idea.
Change purifying into a skill like bone and sub, where it’s just one click and wait for the burst.

We hear the same drivel on Xbox, in the main duelling spot, with all the meta chasers - oddly enough, there’s 1 Templar and the rest are stam dk, dks that are hitting 35k+ burst in a second.

Classes doing 35k unavoidable burst and you dopes are sitting here saying the easiest skill in game to avoid is op 😂😂

stamcro

Destyran wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

This skill is perfectly fine imo.

Jabs total brutal OP to any other spamable. It sad but its nearly Imposible to fight in mele as non max tank build agains three button templar Jabs /Puncturing Sweep most op AOE and one target spamble, Empowering Sweep/ Crescent Sweep stongest ulti, Purifying Light/Power of the Light best delay dmg and if templar have some esence of skill he also put Toppling Charge....

I donno the Necro ultimate has been hitting me for 21k never seen a temp ultimate do that I just think your mad coz you believe you are good but a templar keeps slaying you

You know when that big aoe appears on the ground. Someone just spent 230ish ulti to come out and smash your head. That’s when you MOVE out of it..

Lord-Otto

Joinovikova wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

If u increase widely increase dmg you only help tank meta. There is only one solution how to fight tank meta change resistance reduction from exact number to % this is only way how to hit tank meta.

I don't think so. Increasing spammable damage means putting more pressure on a defensive opponent, overwhelming him faster, as you can't blockheal pressure forever. Crux of tank builds' offense is they only need a proper burst to kill. Leap and Onslaught come to mind. It's not sustained dps from a tank that's killing you.
And also, spammables are commitment. To use them, you need to lower your guard for a window, giving your opponent a chance at counterattack. Unlike burst, which usually happens when you're stunned anyway.

Deathlord92

Edziu wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Jabs is very strong that can’t be denied and tbh I think it’s very unfair jabs being as strong as it is especially after nerfing surprise attack into the ground but it’s elder templars online now I guess yay more tanky skill less meta 😒

still better than elder nightblades online
here you alteast see most of your opponents xD

Prefer nb meta it’s all I play even now so countering nbs is easy lol we should get major fracture back on surprise attack imo mainly because of tanky builds.

I was maining NB for years since beta, got sick of it but I keep knowledge about this class like for others
I never like to play against nb even when I was nb myself xD they was most annyoing to fight because of their hiding, not like it was so big big problem...it was...it is just most annyoing thing in pvp and so I never like them to fight agains - again I will write it xD - even when I was pleying myself as nb xD

Just use detect pots most nbs that spam cloak are bad nbs or camo hunter I use both.

Joinovikova

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

If u increase widely increase dmg you only help tank meta. There is only one solution how to fight tank meta change resistance reduction from exact number to % this is only way how to hit tank meta.

I don't think so. Increasing spammable damage means putting more pressure on a defensive opponent, overwhelming him faster, as you can't blockheal pressure forever. Crux of tank builds' offense is they only need a proper burst to kill. Leap and Onslaught come to mind. It's not sustained dps from a tank that's killing you.
And also, spammables are commitment. To use them, you need to lower your guard for a window, giving your opponent a chance at counterattack. Unlike burst, which usually happens when you're stunned anyway.

But it also mean non tank build will die faster so not Even to dmg

Lord-Otto

Joinovikova wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Controversial opinion:
Bring other spammables up to Jabs standard to balance them and fight the tank meta at the same time?

If u increase widely increase dmg you only help tank meta. There is only one solution how to fight tank meta change resistance reduction from exact number to % this is only way how to hit tank meta.

I don't think so. Increasing spammable damage means putting more pressure on a defensive opponent, overwhelming him faster, as you can't blockheal pressure forever. Crux of tank builds' offense is they only need a proper burst to kill. Leap and Onslaught come to mind. It's not sustained dps from a tank that's killing you.
And also, spammables are commitment. To use them, you need to lower your guard for a window, giving your opponent a chance at counterattack. Unlike burst, which usually happens when you're stunned anyway.

But it also mean non tank build will die faster so not Even to dmg

If that means tanks are incentivized to turtle less and actually engage in combat, I'm all for it.

Drdeath20

Why are we worried about tanks?

Lord-Otto

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Why are we worried about tanks?

They are overperforming at the moment. Have for quite some time, now.

Joinovikova

BNOC wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

coletas wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

fun fact #1: jabs does roughly equal damage to blastbones and warden's shalks, and 20% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #2: jabs with a burning light proc does 35% more damage than blastbones and shalks and 70% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #3: each full channel of jabs has about a 70% chance to proc burning light.

fun fact #4: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs and a burning light proc will do 15% more damage than blastbones and shalks.

fun fact #5: even against major evasion, a full channel of jabs will do 95% as much damage as dizzying swing.

fun fact #6: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only three ticks and a burning light proc will do 40% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #7: even against major evasion, a channel of jabs with only two ticks and a burning light proc will still do 10% more damage than dizzying swing.

fun fact #8: one channel of jabs and a burning light proc has the highest damage ceiling of any non conditional/non damage over time ability besides take flight, which only does 1% more damage than jabs + burning light. no, i'm not kidding. you can do as much damage as a DK's biggest damaging ult, the ability with the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, with one channel of templar's spammable and it's proc that shows up ~70% of the time. this includes executes like killer's blade, which still don't rival jabs and a burning light proc on a target under 25%. hit a button, use a 1s channel, do as much damage as a 110 cost ult. that makes sense.

jabs is already hilariously overtuned compared to every other spammable in the game, and it gets completely ridiculous when you factor in burning light procs.

so yeah nerf jabs. i know, i know. every templar has already posted or is about to post how terrible jabs is, how unreliable it is, how it's literally impossible to use (despite all of them using it), or whatever else. it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter at all because it's ceiling is too high, so when it works like it's supposed to, it's way, way too good, and completely throws balance out of the window. major evasion should not be a requirement in pvp because one class has a spammable that has a ceiling higher than almost every ult in the entire game.

dizzling swings hits 100% of time. In cyro, to hit a complete jabs channeling to anyone, he has to be making coffee on the kitchen.
And is not (by far) the worst spammable lol... molten whip, warden birds, blastbones (i would prefer that secured Major defile instead of a burning light... 70% lol, have u ever used a templar before? with 70% burning light nobody would play other class lol) .... the only problem is that you keep there, eating all 4 jabs every time. Is an extremely easy skill to counter, specially with lag. No matter then Nerf % you ask for, if you are dying today being jabbed, you Will be with less damage too

Try also another class. Dizzy swing is 100% harder to hit and can be easily 100% denied not posible to jabs at least Part of the jabs will hit targer and jabs Jave 60% more dmg then dizzy so even you Leng Part of jabs it still stronger then any spamable. Lags helps mainly to templar To land full jabs. Because they reduce react time.. this skill must be nerf

Lag makes jabs very difficult to land.
Simple enemy movement or jumping, affects jabs massively.
Jabs are not doing 60% more damage than dizzy.
Jabs are among the skills that face the most mitigation - brp is about a straight 55% reduction, on its own.

Give Templar an unblockable cc like everyone else has.
Stop mitigating us so much with *** ass sets like brp - which btw, why that was removed from ripostes 5 set and slapped onto a 2h stam set with easier trigger conditions, I have no idea.
Change purifying into a skill like bone and sub, where it’s just one click and wait for the burst.

We hear the same drivel on Xbox, in the main duelling spot, with all the meta chasers - oddly enough, there’s 1 Templar and the rest are stam dk, dks that are hitting 35k+ burst in a second.

Classes doing 35k unavoidable burst and you dopes are sitting here saying the easiest skill in game to avoid is op 😂😂

Jabs has more then 60% thats true just count best dizzy option dizzy on stamsorc vs jabs but true in avarage it 65%...lags is better for land jabs just because Victim of that stupid op need to be nerf ability have less time to do anything but on most class hm its never mind still habe zero counter.. dizzy is much more easy to fully dodge less range no area. Amd have 0.8s to ‘dodge or mitigate 100% of dmg just try another class ..

relentless_turnip

Joinovikova wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Templars and in particular jabs are absolutely fine...

I main a MagDK and don't find them as OP as everyone claims. I have never played a templar past level 10 so I am in no way defending them.

I find Templar healing to be the hardest thing to counter. I save my fossilize for when they are below 50% health so you can stop them healing back to full. Other than that... never have many problems.

Jabs are constant pressure which I think can cause a bit of panic, like any class you just need to return that pressure and push them of their offensive.
A MagDk is nearly always screwed when they forced onto their backbar, where as a templar has reset buttons
That is fine though as these are defining traits of each class. A Templar is a healing class and a MagDK is rewarded with resource for being on the offensive.

I think maybe only their healing needs addressing, nothing wrong with their spammable. Even their healing doesn't bother me though....

Here is a video from last weekends PvP I fought at least 3 templars in it(some are clearly potatoes).

https://youtube.com/watch?v=B9Hi0j4EQuM

Every build has a counter though and sometimes we notice that more prominently in a particular classes.
We need to learn to accept this or change our build, not ask for the game to change to our playstyle.
The amount of presumably glass cannons still complaining about nightblades is upsetting. The poor *** need a buff not more nerfs and Templars are in a good place, let's leave them there!

I imagine a lot of nerf requests will be centred around Stamcro this patch and will be unplayable in the next.
Everyone then complains at ZOS saying they can't balance a game after 6 years. Is it any wonder with the data they receive.

I would like to see class reps take more of an active role in culminating data from the community and that being presented to the dev's instead of everyone just posting they're latest death recaps. Perhaps an invite to the forums only comes after a year of play. It needs to be filtered in some way if we ever want "balance".

This is mostly related to mmr reset after reset i also start understand why people cry about mag sorc and snipe build... they are brutal strong on low mmr..

MMR is only your individual ranking and as it is reset there are going to be a mix of skill levels. I had been high MMR for a long time and have only found it easier since the reset. You do occasionally have more skilled players, but I havent done any worse in BG's since the reset. You may find there are more because solo players had got fed up with playing premades and may be doing more BG's and cyrodiil being broken doesn't help...

Joy_Division

Joinovikova wrote: »

Jabs has more then 60% thats true just count best dizzy option dizzy on stamsorc vs jabs but true in avarage it 65%...lags is better for land jabs just because Victim of that stupid op need to be nerf ability have less time to do anything but on most class hm its never mind still habe zero counter.. dizzy is much more easy to fully dodge less range no area. Amd have 0.8s to ‘dodge or mitigate 100% of dmg just try another class ..

The more you type, the more you demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who has ever played a templar knows that jabs (and Blazing Spear) is unusable in lag, more so than any instant cast skills in the game.

Jabs does more damage because players can literally walk through a templar or to the side and avoid getting hit by them. This can not happen with spammables like crushing shock. An instant cast will hit a walking target. Players who account for mobility, snare removal, and speed in their builds (i.e. good and intelligent players) don't struggle with jabs. Jabs is like one of the easiest noob tests on these forums: if someone is complaining how they are oppressive, unfair, and get murdered by them, that's a sign they just aren;t good at PvP or aren;t being honest and have an agenda. Everything has been so nerfed to crap it's difficult for me to believe anything is oppressive or unfair, though all the no damage tank builds out there is certainly annoying.

So keep typing away and demonstrating to everyone reading this forum you are easy AP.

Edziu

Joy_Division wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Jabs has more then 60% thats true just count best dizzy option dizzy on stamsorc vs jabs but true in avarage it 65%...lags is better for land jabs just because Victim of that stupid op need to be nerf ability have less time to do anything but on most class hm its never mind still habe zero counter.. dizzy is much more easy to fully dodge less range no area. Amd have 0.8s to ‘dodge or mitigate 100% of dmg just try another class ..

The more you type, the more you demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who has ever played a templar knows that jabs (and Blazing Spear) is unusable in lag, more so than any instant cast skills in the game.

Jabs does more damage because players can literally walk through a templar or to the side and avoid getting hit by them. This can not happen with spammables like crushing shock. An instant cast will hit a walking target. Players who account for mobility, snare removal, and speed in their builds (i.e. good and intelligent players) don't struggle with jabs. Jabs is like one of the easiest noob tests on these forums: if someone is complaining how they are oppressive, unfair, and get murdered by them, that's a sign they just aren;t good at PvP or aren;t being honest and have an agenda. Everything has been so nerfed to crap it's difficult for me to believe anything is oppressive or unfair, though all the no damage tank builds out there is certainly annoying.

So keep typing away and demonstrating to everyone reading this forum you are easy AP.

I remember how I was compaining on jabs when I was playing as gankblade and stamplays...was not much usable yet
then friend explained me who is very good in theoryctafting and in overall with practise with ESO as jabs was not anything op and he made me aware of how noob my movement was against this aong with buld - so glass cannon without snare removal and at all not walking/dodging into behind of this templar fro his jabs

Joinovikova

Joy_Division wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Jabs has more then 60% thats true just count best dizzy option dizzy on stamsorc vs jabs but true in avarage it 65%...lags is better for land jabs just because Victim of that stupid op need to be nerf ability have less time to do anything but on most class hm its never mind still habe zero counter.. dizzy is much more easy to fully dodge less range no area. Amd have 0.8s to ‘dodge or mitigate 100% of dmg just try another class ..

The more you type, the more you demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about. Anyone who has ever played a templar knows that jabs (and Blazing Spear) is unusable in lag, more so than any instant cast skills in the game.

Jabs does more damage because players can literally walk through a templar or to the side and avoid getting hit by them. This can not happen with spammables like crushing shock. An instant cast will hit a walking target. Players who account for mobility, snare removal, and speed in their builds (i.e. good and intelligent players) don't struggle with jabs. Jabs is like one of the easiest noob tests on these forums: if someone is complaining how they are oppressive, unfair, and get murdered by them, that's a sign they just aren;t good at PvP or aren;t being honest and have an agenda. Everything has been so nerfed to crap it's difficult for me to believe anything is oppressive or unfair, though all the no damage tank builds out there is certainly annoying.

So keep typing away and demonstrating to everyone reading this forum you are easy AP.

You only demonstrated your lack of math skills, you should start work on it asap have problem with such basis thing like calculate percentage......dizzy is not instant if you want to take to compare ranged skills like crushing shock first dont be noob and check their dmg and compare those skills to jabs. i have all classes include templar and for me is easy to land jabs in lag just your l2P issue thats all its just easier to dodge dizzy if you state anything else so inteligent player is not your case, but you already demonstrated this fact on lack of math skills...