RNG or no RNG

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

Idk what all this means but I just want to buy my way through...what good is being a rich trader when u have nothing but gold to crown to use the gold for...ugh also can we pls get bigger caves? I need more space to stash my billions of septims...

Donny_Vito

I'm fine with the current system. It rewards people who play the game more.

If you can only play an hour or two a night/week then you cannot, and should not, expect to be geared like someone who plays much more.

Kombinator

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm fine with the current system. It rewards people who play the game more.

If you can only play an hour or two a night/week then you cannot, and should not, expect to be geared like someone who plays much more.

True, but i would like to see saying the same, if you want an item, and it doesn't drop in 2000 try. Also i prefer skill over grind.

Starlock

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm fine with the current system. It rewards people who play the game more.

That's not how randomness works though. Playing the game "more" doesn't equate to getting the drops you want for your character. That's the problem, really. People who play "more" are NOT necessarily getting rewarded. Nay, many of them are just getting frustrated.

It's one of the many reasons why I do not go out of my way to get specific gear drops in this game. If it can't be bought on a guild trader or crafted myself, I pretty much ignore that it exists. Coupling randomness with nonsensical gear binding is part of what makes the system in ESO especially bad. I could get on board with it if our characters were trading underwear or something (because who wants used underwear, gross!) but they're exchanging greaves and gloves here. There's no logical reason why gear would be "bound" to our characters.

Nestor

One thing that would help, is Magic Set Weapons drop in Sticks and Stamina drop in Melee. Perhaps Tank sets drop Shield and Ice Staff too.

Starlock

Nestor wrote: »

One thing that would help, is Magic Set Weapons drop in Sticks and Stamina drop in Melee. Perhaps Tank sets drop Shield and Ice Staff too.

Not everybody matches their weapon type to their resource type, though, and there be hybrids. This would be a really bad change for those characters and their players. I'd have to delete my ashlander if this change was made or only use crafted gear on him, because I refuse to use a bloody staff on a magicka dragonknight...

Kombinator

Starlock wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I'm fine with the current system. It rewards people who play the game more.

That's not how randomness works though. Playing the game "more" doesn't equate to getting the drops you want for your character. That's the problem, really. People who play "more" are NOT necessarily getting rewarded. Nay, many of them are just getting frustrated.

It's one of the many reasons why I do not go out of my way to get specific gear drops in this game. If it can't be bought on a guild trader or crafted myself, I pretty much ignore that it exists. Coupling randomness with nonsensical gear binding is part of what makes the system in ESO especially bad. I could get on board with it if our characters were trading underwear or something (because who wants used underwear, gross!) but they're exchanging greaves and gloves here. There's no logical reason why gear would be "bound" to our characters.

Well it would increase the number of bot users, and gold traders, because technically you could just buy everything from gold at a guild vendor.

Though you can still go pure legendary from there already as crafted items are not bound, and it is possible to craft legendary gear.

But you are right about that playing more does not necessarily reward it. I farmed White Gold tower for days. Got like 5 two-handed imperium, 3 spell cure sword, and countless other stuff before i got a dagger. From all the one-handed a freaking dagger. Man i glad i can just use outfit to change it's looks, but still it's kinda immersion breaking for me. If i were the guy who wants Imperium onehanded Sword, then something tells me, that i would need to grind it way over a hundred times to get it.

bmnoble

Voted for A hybrid currency system.

Keep the drops as they are but also add currency drops to each boss unique to each dungeon(aside from the 2 versions they share the same currency due to the same sets) with no limits on how much you can have stored in the currency tab.

That way you still have to farm the dungeon with the set pieces your after, not just running FG1 until you had enough currency to buy whatever set you wanted.

No stupidly low drop rates of the currency either, at most two runs of the dungeon should earn you enough to buy 1 piece of gear, that way at most you need to do 10 runs for a full set, still in random traits so people need to use transmute stones and can't turn up in PVP with a full Impen set of dungeon gear as an example.

At each of the dungeons entrances there should be a merchant, that has all the set pieces for the dungeon for you to choose from with your currency, no random loot box crap like the PVP gear vendors, the only random thing should be the trait, all sold at blue quality so people can't farm purple mats with the currency especially purple rings.

Mr_Walker

Pure RNG exists to have people keep playing the content, but oft-times it's a false economy. Ask someone who's run CoA 483 times how many times they'll run coa after they get that bsw inferno staff.

barney2525

Seems to me that there are just too many possible 'treasures' that can be found to Not use an RNG system.

IMHJO

redlink1979

Keep it as it is.

peacenote

I am fine with what we have now, but I wouldn't mind seeing a system that, similar to the transmutation system, would allow us to earn a currency, even at the slowest rate imaginable, where ultimately we could buy a piece. I say this after running CoA a gazillion times for my BSW staff and never succeeding, and being unable to obtain a second Jorvuld's lightning staff for my healer despite running it countless times with a friend and obtaining every other set in that dungeon five times over.

I would even be fine with the "shop" per dungeon only being unlocked after x amount of attempted runs and players only being limited to buying one piece per month (or other long period of time), account-wide.

A system that could VERY SLIGHTLY slightly offset the worst RNG of all time, without ruining the replay-ability of content, would gain my support. It does take the fun out of trying new sets or new combos when that one piece NEVER drops and there is no other method to acquire it.

5cript

i farmed around 32 hours for my burning spellweave inferno staff.
I did start to wish for a currency hybrid system.

Will never come though. MMOs are specifically designed to "waste" time. I argue that they wouldn't work without.

It also felt reaaalllyy gooood to have the staff I needed.

huntgod_ESO

I'd like to see gear continue to drop, as there is a definitely a reward response when something you want drops, you lose that with currency. Now, supplementing that with a currency that can be used to then buy any piece you want from a dungeon vendor or similar would be great. Each boss kill also generates a token, 3-5 tokens for a weapon of choice, 3 per armor piece, that would be awesome.

It would also be nice if you just made all that gear BOE and allowed people to sell them.

I would like either system.

Grianasteri

Kombinator wrote: »

So if you were given a decision to alter drop system as you see fit, then which approach would you choose.

2. would mean, that bosses would no longer drop gear set pieces. Instead they would drop some sort of currency, that you can trade for their drop.
3. would mean both. Bosses drop some gear, and small ammount of currency, that can be exchanged for whatever gear you want. So no matter how unlucky your RNG is you can grind out any piece of equipment.
4. would mean, that you can pay gold at the start of the dungeon to increase the droprate of one set piece you want. This gold is lost the moment you pay it, and NPC despawn the moment you or your team kills the first boss. But given enough gold you could guarantee the drop of any set piece. You could only pay for one piece/run.

Im not sure the OP has set out the idea particularly clearly, 3 numbers but 4 options? Did I miss something...

Anyway, I have often thought that the punishment from bad RNG is way way way over the top. Here is an example.

-I dropped 2 Burning Spell Weave fire staffs within just a few runs of City of Ash, I think I barely got into double figures.
-I have completed well over 300 runs of Arx Corinium, in search of the elusive Undaunted Infiltrator shock staff - in this time I have dropped every other staff and weapon a dozen times or more.

This kind of RNG disparity is not fun. Computer games are supposed to be fun.

Every defeat of the boss should provide 1 currency, with say 100 of that currency (so 100 runs) finally allowing purchase of whatever item you want. This does not remove the grind, it merely means that when the RNG is punishing someone to the point of insanity, where it is no longer fair or fun, the player can get the item they have invested so heavily in trying to obtain.

Katahdin

How about just better drop chances on rare weapons that people really want like fire staves and daggers?

I'm not for more currency systems or paying gold for guaranteed drops

idk

LOL. after a couple of days and not even 100 people have chosen to vote Zos probably sees the the results more that people are so fine with the current system they do not think it is worthy to even vote.

krachall

As one of the millions of players staking claim to the "worst RNG in the game" title, I have to admit that I think it should stay as is. Grinding versus the RNG is an integral part of MMORPGs and is part of the reason we play. The physiological responses to the anticipation of a drop are what "gamification" activities are based on.

That said, I highly doubt the RNG is truly an RNG. There are obviously some algorithms in play that remove the randomness from a lot of things we assume are actually random. I'd like to see these removed. ZOS has admitted they employ "max drops per day" rules for some items -- I want to know which ones and when those reset. i.e. farming Nirn in Craglorn at 8AM mid-week results in about 1 potent and 3 fortified nirn every 30 min. That same route at 9PM gives me zero of either in 2+ hours. random? maybe but not probable.

There are plenty of anecdotal examples (i.e. getting the same reward from vMA 5 times in a row) but also a lot that have been statistically proven to be non-random and obviously under the influence of some other game mechanics. Let's get rid of those.

And some of it is just creepy. I've been doing daily writs on 2-7 characters a day for 4+ years. I've never run out of an alchemy ingredient until 2 days ago when I ran out of wormwood. And the next day, with 100+ of every alchemy ingredient EXCEPT wormwood, 6 of my 7 characters had "Deliver 3 wormwood" as the daily writ. random? maybe but HIGHLY unlikely.

I'm fine grinding against an RNG but I'm not fine unknowingly grinding against zero-chance non-random drops. There's some devious stuff going on behind the scenes other than a simple RNG.

EDITED: And please don't respond with an incorrect "sample size" argument. Most people who don't truly understand statistics GROSSLY overestimate the number of samples needed to prove randomness or lack thereof. In a test of light vs. medium vs. heavy drops from overland chests that I did, someone claimed I needed to open "tens of thousands" of chests before I could prove it was not random. Incorrect. Someone else actually did the calculation and the number was right around 300 chests needed.

Kombinator

krachall wrote: »

As one of the millions of players staking claim to the "worst RNG in the game" title, I have to admit that I think it should stay as is. Grinding versus the RNG is an integral part of MMORPGs and is part of the reason we play. The physiological responses to the anticipation of a drop are what "gamification" activities are based on.

That said, I highly doubt the RNG is truly an RNG. There are obviously some algorithms in play that remove the randomness from a lot of things we assume are actually random. I'd like to see these removed. ZOS has admitted they employ "max drops per day" rules for some items -- I want to know which ones and when those reset. i.e. farming Nirn in Craglorn at 8AM mid-week results in about 1 potent and 3 fortified nirn every 30 min. That same route at 9PM gives me zero of either in 2+ hours. random? maybe but not probable.

There are plenty of anecdotal examples (i.e. getting the same reward from vMA 5 times in a row) but also a lot that have been statistically proven to be non-random and obviously under the influence of some other game mechanics. Let's get rid of those.

And some of it is just creepy. I've been doing daily writs on 2-7 characters a day for 4+ years. I've never run out of an alchemy ingredient until 2 days ago when I ran out of wormwood. And the next day, with 100+ of every alchemy ingredient EXCEPT wormwood, 6 of my 7 characters had "Deliver 3 wormwood" as the daily writ. random? maybe but HIGHLY unlikely.

I'm fine grinding against an RNG but I'm not fine unknowingly grinding against zero-chance non-random drops. There's some devious stuff going on behind the scenes other than a simple RNG.

EDITED: And please don't respond with an incorrect "sample size" argument. Most people who don't truly understand statistics GROSSLY overestimate the number of samples needed to prove randomness or lack thereof. In a test of light vs. medium vs. heavy drops from overland chests that I did, someone claimed I needed to open "tens of thousands" of chests before I could prove it was not random. Incorrect. Someone else actually did the calculation and the number was right around 300 chests needed.

It is clear, that certain item types have lower chance. In my experience regular armor parts drop the most, and weapons the least. Jewelry is in the middle. At least from normal, and vet. dungeons.

It might be, that the gear you wear has lowered chance to drop further pieces. When i farmed the Imperium onehanded as tank i got every armor, jewelry, a resto, a lightning, a flame staff, and more than one onehanded sword from the spell cure set. From Essence thief i also got a lot of stuff including 2 dagger, and a bow. I was able to put 5-5-2 set magicka, and stamina gear before i finally got that one weapon i was looking for.

Then i got bored of tanking, and started to play healer. In 2 days (~6 run) i got the onehanded Imperium.

Kombinator

Grianasteri wrote: »

Kombinator wrote: »

So if you were given a decision to alter drop system as you see fit, then which approach would you choose.

2. would mean, that bosses would no longer drop gear set pieces. Instead they would drop some sort of currency, that you can trade for their drop.
3. would mean both. Bosses drop some gear, and small ammount of currency, that can be exchanged for whatever gear you want. So no matter how unlucky your RNG is you can grind out any piece of equipment.
4. would mean, that you can pay gold at the start of the dungeon to increase the droprate of one set piece you want. This gold is lost the moment you pay it, and NPC despawn the moment you or your team kills the first boss. But given enough gold you could guarantee the drop of any set piece. You could only pay for one piece/run.

Im not sure the OP has set out the idea particularly clearly, 3 numbers but 4 options? Did I miss something...

Anyway, I have often thought that the punishment from bad RNG is way way way over the top. Here is an example.

-I dropped 2 Burning Spell Weave fire staffs within just a few runs of City of Ash, I think I barely got into double figures.
-I have completed well over 300 runs of Arx Corinium, in search of the elusive Undaunted Infiltrator shock staff - in this time I have dropped every other staff and weapon a dozen times or more.

This kind of RNG disparity is not fun. Computer games are supposed to be fun.

Every defeat of the boss should provide 1 currency, with say 100 of that currency (so 100 runs) finally allowing purchase of whatever item you want. This does not remove the grind, it merely means that when the RNG is punishing someone to the point of insanity, where it is no longer fair or fun, the player can get the item they have invested so heavily in trying to obtain.

My first idea about it something similar. Each final boss drops one currency, and all set piece cost 100. Except two-handed weapons which would cost 200, because it takes 2 slot in your equipment. It is not good enough to farm some easy stuff for hard gear, because a full gear is still 1200 run. From that many runs you very likely get everything anyway. It's more like getting that final few piece you looking for.

Maybe separate currencies based on level. I think, that 2 would be enough. One for dungeons, and one for trials.

idk wrote: »

LOL. after a couple of days and not even 100 people have chosen to vote Zos probably sees the the results more that people are so fine with the current system they do not think it is worthy to even vote.

Considering, that it has no marketing, and it's only 3 days old it's not a bad number. But trust me, if this would be on the top with a ZOS admin mark, and sticked for future patch, then there would be several thousands.

However the ratio seems to be a bit fixated by now. Hybrid currency is somewhat above the current system, pure currency is way below, and very few want gold involvement.

Given the same ratio among all active players full customer service would be making the hybrid system. But since the ratio is not overwhelmingly greater it's not really worth it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Honestly, I think transmute saved most of our issues. The only issue I really ever have is with specific weapons. Armor/Jewelry is just not that much of an issue.

I think the only thing they really need to do is weight the weapon loot pool to be a bit smarter with drops. Sure you might still get a resto staff of vicious ophidian once in a while, but a VO dagger or sword should be a much more common event (for example).

CrashTest

I actually found this thread through Google while searching for MMOs with no RNG or one with a token system.

3. would mean both. Bosses drop some gear, and small ammount of currency, that can be exchanged for whatever gear you want. So no matter how unlucky your RNG is you can grind out any piece of equipment.

This because it's not fun to play gear lottery.

If I run certain content for certain gear, I want to actually be working towards acquiring that gear if I don't actually win the RNG lottery to get the gear drop. It's why I really like the pledge key system; sure, there's still the RNG lottery to contend with, but that's mitigated because purple coffers are limited to only 2 dungeons and 1 type of gear piece. Unlike the current drop system that shares its loot table with all or almost all gear types which becomes unfun when you play content on repeat with no results or nothing to eventually guarantee your goal piece if you run the content enough times.