What are your feelings on Animation Canceling and LA Weaving

Stebarnz

d0e1ow wrote: »

The game's combat is bad in general, and the people who defend this game's laggy, de-synced, absolutely chaotic, button mashy gameplay by trying to pretend being good at ESO is some kind of noble skill the plebs should aspire to are delusional.

Combat is the number one cited reason in my experience for why people dislike the game. It has a horrible reputation for a reason, and that reason probably isn't "cuz they just need to l2p" like the lag causing locusts of Cyrodiil and "Vet Trials" gosugamers seem to imply.

Nobody is forcing you to play this game, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out! People who are bad at things and don't accept it always find a reason to justify being bad.

Dusk_Coven

At this point, especially considering the various decisions and non-actions in just this year alone, I think it's sort of pointless to talk about even Animation Cancelling anymore.
- overlapping an event with a mandatory download?
- tying RNG to event tickets
- adjusting an old set to promote a new one?
- complete silence on PvP bugs that can look like cheats
- no evidence of actually following up on investigation and bans with the costume exploit
- no evidence of investigating bug and cheat reports at all, such as https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6583710 where people were getting rollbacks
They're just going to botch any changes if they did make them. Not even sure they are competently able to make changes at all, hence the silence on so many issues.

d0e1ow

Stebarnz wrote: »

d0e1ow wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

Whats this shrink the gap between top and bottom??? Do you have this attitude in all walks of life?

Olympics? football? NBA? doctors? That man can run too fast, attach weights to him that'll slow him down to my pace!

Just take your participation medal and stop trying to handicap people.

There will always be people who are bad and people who are good at everything, its up to you where you land! How do you get to Carnegie hall?

Comparing being a virtuoso musician or Olympic athlete to being a weirdo who is overly invested in defending a gameplay bug. A real big brain moment from you.

C'mon man, you're not a weirdo.

Semantics.

I'm rubber you're glue.

Stebarnz

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

At this point, especially considering the various decisions and non-actions in just this year alone, I think it's sort of pointless to talk about even Animation Cancelling anymore.
- overlapping an event with a mandatory download?
- adjusting an old set to promote a new one?
- complete silence on PvP bugs that can look like cheats
- no evidence of actually following up on investigation and bans with the costume exploit
- no evidence of investigating bug and cheat reports at all, such as https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6583710 where people were getting rollbacks

They're just going to botch any changes if they did make them. Not even sure they are competently able to make changes at all, hence the silence on so many issues.

Correct! everyone asking for a combat change don't know what they are asking for, I see 213443212 different 'this will be better' BS posts that will only be better for them.

If ZOS changed it and pandered to the scrubs, good lord, I cant imagine what would happen to it.

This is the game, you choose to play, if you don't like it, don't play it!

imno007b14_ESO

It's the result of bad design, no counter-arguments I've seen have convinced me otherwise, but on the other hand most of those who've mastered it wouldn't want to give up any advantages it gives them over people who haven't, so I would expect that most of those who like it are people who've been playing for years and who regularly do a lot of pvp and/or endgame content. In other words, almost no one just starting the game would look at it and say, "Wow, what a brilliant mechanic." Speaking for myself, it's always felt like making the best of a bad thing.

Ohtimbar

LA weaving is not great for people with rsi. I don't usually look to MMO'S for apm clickfests. If I want that, I can play Dota. But it is what it is, and I have no expectations that it will change.

ZeroXFF

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

It's not really popular though. What you're seeing on the forums is the result of selection bias. You don't see people who quit the game because of it, and I guarantee you, they are not an insignificant portion of the players who did not stick around.

Also, nobody stayed because of it, a lot of people merely got used to it and are unwilling to change, hence you get the impression of it being "popular".

Think what you want and say what you want, I have proof, you don't!

A/C is more popular than not, end of chat.

Hearing this BS a lot lately, majority votes one way but yet the minority coming up with random ass crap to poo poo the figures because they cant take being told they are wrong. If it was a vote A/C stays, if they change it, it wont matter this game hasn't got a long life left either way.

Main reason and lets face it there is only 1 why they wont change it $$$$$$$ its not profitable to do so.

In WW2 the allied forces were trying to work out how to make sure that more planes made it back to base. The initial investigations have shown that most planes that were inspected had damaged wings, so they reinforced the wings. Perfectly logical, right? Reinforce the areas that take the most damage, and more planes will return home. So they did that. And guess what? The rate of planes returning to base hasn't changed.

Then along came a certain fellow named Abraham Wald, and he recommended that the reinforcement is put on areas that showed the least damage, and voila! The number of planes that made it back to base increased dramatically. And the reason is simple, the initial study was only looking at planes that made it back to base, it didn't take into account those that got destroyed because of the damage in those critical areas where the researchers saw no damage on the planes that returned.

Well, in our case the base is the forums, the planes are the players, and the battlefield is the game. But math remains math.

dazee

Stebarnz wrote: »

To remove it now would make it a different game!

It is better with it for people who are good its better without it for people who are bad, FACT!

This is true to a degree but ignores the actual issue with Animation Cancelling- the fact that it looks terrible and uncool, and combat without it is way cooler and thus more fun.

Winning alone will get old fast. Winning while being cool as hell is always good. therefore AC is a problem and one which should be addressed- not in a way which ruins the flow of gameplay, but it should not increase dps.

Dusk_Coven

If they could fix it they should. But clearly ZOS has shown they're not competent. Animation Cancellation is just one of the early gross incompetencies they covered up with some vague talk to avoid embarrassment.
Now they don't even try to cover anything up. They just keep quiet.

Just look at the bug about scroll-dropping in Cyrodiil. It's unavoidable if it's not intentional, and it's hard to prove when it's intentional. But ZOS doesn't even bother to say anything, investigate, or promise to fix. They just let the community war with each other endlessly.
Worst PvP management ever.

Animation Cancellation is just probably one of the earliest debacles and you can see how long it's continued.

Don't simply listen to what ZOS says. Look at what they do or not do. Like how they handled Iceheart.

Somewhere

Well your light attack continues to deal damage after you cancel the end of it with a skill because it is considered instantaneous. Melee weapons hit immediately, and projectiles fire away with a instant click. Are people seriously suggesting that I am forced to watch the entire light attack animation in it's full 1 second entirety in order to use it? No one would use light attacks so I fail to see what the point is.

This is what light attack weaving is, and it appears this is what people are complaining about.

Opalblade

Unless they plan on reworking the entire combat system, I'd rather they keep animation canceling. When I first joined and didn't know about weaving, most of the attacks I did just felt way too slow. Now that I know how to weave, I'm actually enjoying ESO's combat.

kirgeo

Animation Canceling is needed in this game for reactive combat. LA Weaving that improve DPS by a lot not that much.
Not sure how/if ZOS will fix it. Most people in my opinion don't know it as its not clearly presented in-game. It mainly helps people just skip mechanics(not good design) and makes content too hard or too easy for some.

I don't care either way but fixing the DPS boost will probably be better for game longevity like reworking the CP (if done properly) would.

Septimus_Magna

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players (122 vs 85) and 44% of console players (34 vs 22) don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.
Yeah, it's still a majority but it's actually pretty close to 50/50.

I wish there was an option to enable animation priority so people could experience how combat would feel when you have to wait for the entire animation to finish before you can light attack, block, dodge or barswap.

People saying they dont like AC doesnt mean they know what the impact will be when it changes. This discussion has been brought up several times on this forum and it usually turns into casual (anti-AC) versus elite (pro-AC). Sadly nobody seems to care about arguments, its all about making the game more suited to camp casual or camp elite.

stevenyaub16_ESO

If they reduced the animations to when you can light attack. Then it will no longer be called animation cancelling and people can't say it's an exploit.

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players (122 vs 85) and 44% of console players (34 vs 22) don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.
Yeah, it's still a majority but it's actually pretty close to 50/50.

I made s suggestion on it here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/512150/animation-cancelling-needs-to-be-reviewed-for-combat-changes#latest

The big issue is, the people who can do it, really like it. But we can't alienate those who cannot it's their game too. They need to make it take less time to get from 15k to 35k+.

And yes all it takes is a dummy and time.

Qbiken

Why are people still complaining about this feature (yes it´s a feature and something that needs to stay)? It´s been in the game for 6 years and is a one of the fundamentual combat mechanics of this game. Wether people like it or not it´s one of the key components to the fast paced combat that makes ESO unique compared to many other MMO´s. Removing it at this point will cause significantly more harm than good, trust me and those people who defend it. If you want to play more slow-paced game like WoW ,you know where to go.......

The amount of time and effort it takes to learn how to do it isn´t as immense as some people try to make it. I remember when I was newer to the game. When I first read about AC and learned what it was, I realised I had been doing it for quite some time already.

My take on AC and LA-weaving: It should stay as it is because it´s a wonderful feature that me and many others enjoy.

dazee

LA weaving and animation cancellation of skill animations are 2 completely different things and should not be confused.

Stebarnz

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players (122 vs 85) and 44% of console players (34 vs 22) don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.
Yeah, it's still a majority but it's actually pretty close to 50/50.

Your maths is as bad as your A/C

For 175
Against 131

As of 00:00 15/2/20

Majority love A/C!

Stebarnz

dazee wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

To remove it now would make it a different game!

It is better with it for people who are good its better without it for people who are bad, FACT!

This is true to a degree but ignores the actual issue with Animation Cancelling- the fact that it looks terrible and uncool, and combat without it is way cooler and thus more fun.

Winning alone will get old fast. Winning while being cool as hell is always good. therefore AC is a problem and one which should be addressed- not in a way which ruins the flow of gameplay, but it should not increase dps.

Not to the Majority! I don't care what my char looks like so long as the combat is fast and engaging which it currently is to me, I don't want to watch my character twirl around doing the same animation over and over and over and over!

You are, look good to you and lose, id rather look how I want and win!

Stebarnz

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

It's not really popular though. What you're seeing on the forums is the result of selection bias. You don't see people who quit the game because of it, and I guarantee you, they are not an insignificant portion of the players who did not stick around.

Also, nobody stayed because of it, a lot of people merely got used to it and are unwilling to change, hence you get the impression of it being "popular".

Think what you want and say what you want, I have proof, you don't!

A/C is more popular than not, end of chat.

Hearing this BS a lot lately, majority votes one way but yet the minority coming up with random ass crap to poo poo the figures because they cant take being told they are wrong. If it was a vote A/C stays, if they change it, it wont matter this game hasn't got a long life left either way.

Main reason and lets face it there is only 1 why they wont change it $$$$$$$ its not profitable to do so.

In WW2 the allied forces were trying to work out how to make sure that more planes made it back to base. The initial investigations have shown that most planes that were inspected had damaged wings, so they reinforced the wings. Perfectly logical, right? Reinforce the areas that take the most damage, and more planes will return home. So they did that. And guess what? The rate of planes returning to base hasn't changed.

Then along came a certain fellow named Abraham Wald, and he recommended that the reinforcement is put on areas that showed the least damage, and voila! The number of planes that made it back to base increased dramatically. And the reason is simple, the initial study was only looking at planes that made it back to base, it didn't take into account those that got destroyed because of the damage in those critical areas where the researchers saw no damage on the planes that returned.

Well, in our case the base is the forums, the planes are the players, and the battlefield is the game. But math remains math.

Nice story but I read the analogy different.

A/C is the wings that people think if we change it the game will get better, (it wont).
Lag and other important bugs are the critical areas that NEED fixing.
Abraham Wald was obviously a fan of A/C!
Casual forum queens who don't like A/C need to stick to Riften tavern rp events with all the *suspicious shadowy figures.

Stebarnz

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players (122 vs 85) and 44% of console players (34 vs 22) don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.
Yeah, it's still a majority but it's actually pretty close to 50/50.

I wish there was an option to enable animation priority so people could experience how combat would feel when you have to wait for the entire animation to finish before you can light attack, block, dodge or barswap.

People saying they dont like AC doesnt mean they know what the impact will be when it changes. This discussion has been brought up several times on this forum and it usually turns into casual (anti-AC) versus elite (pro-AC). Sadly nobody seems to care about arguments, its all about making the game more suited to camp casual or camp elite.

You do not understand what this would do to that game! It would slow it down to painful as characters whirled around like fairies and no damage got done. ZOS would have to increase the damage done by every skill and we all know how good they are at making changes! Be careful what you wish for.

mustangmorgan31

If you are just a roleplayer and only care about how your animations look while you are emoting with your friends on a mountain top. Please just stop posting. You cannot advise on competitive combat when you clearly do not participate in it.

Stebarnz

Bottom line is if you don't want to A/C then don't but don't take away the option for the MAJORITY who want to!

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

i don't play anymore but light attack weaving is very important to DPS. But theoretically speaking everything can be macro-ed. A "friend" played like that for 3 years and no one banned him. And I am not talking about combo macros, just the ones that spam light attack and the spell immediately afterwards when pressing 1,2,3,4,5, R

ZeroXFF

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

i don't play anymore but light attack weaving is very important to DPS. But theoretically speaking everything can be macro-ed. A "friend" played like that for 3 years and no one banned him. And I am not talking about combo macros, just the ones that spam light attack and the spell immediately afterwards when pressing 1,2,3,4,5, R

In a well-designed game things like that are not necessary. Pressing 2 buttons, one of which is always the same, to do essentially 1 action, is not "skill", it's just pointless.

dazee

mustangmorgan31 wrote: »

If you are just a roleplayer and only care about how your animations look while you are emoting with your friends on a mountain top. Please just stop posting. You cannot advise on competitive combat when you clearly do not participate in it.

Nobody said anything about emoting. this is a thread about combat, and clearly no one who doesnt care about combat would bother posting here. so how about using a brain cell or 2 and actually contribute to the conversation, if you care about it.

dazee

Stebarnz wrote: »

Bottom line is if you don't want to A/C then don't but don't take away the option for the MAJORITY who want to!

I dont want to stop people from doing AC, I want them to not have an advantage just becuase they dont give a *** about fun and care only about big numbers and fast clears.

Stebarnz

dazee wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

Bottom line is if you don't want to A/C then don't but don't take away the option for the MAJORITY who want to!

I dont want to stop people from doing AC, I want them to not have an advantage just becuase they dont give a *** about fun and care only about big numbers and fast clears.

Who are you to say what people find 'fun'. If people play better they should have an advantage over slower people!

Stop assuming everybody wants what you do, the poll says other wise!!! Literally proof they don't!

Drako_Ei

I will cancel my 12 month sub the day LA weaving gets removed

stevenyaub16_ESO

dazee wrote: »

I dont want to stop people from doing AC, I want them to not have an advantage just becuase they dont give a *** about fun and care only about big numbers and fast clears.

Its the only reason I find DDing fun. And the majority who got good at it feel the same way as you can see from the votes/comments.

Block weaving though is aids and I wouldn't want that to be a requirement.

James-Wayne

Only reason I don't like it is because in Australia with the high ping the game just doesn't respond to input fast enough, in fact due to the ping light attack weaving forces you to attack slower netting you even less damage.