What are your feelings on Animation Canceling and LA Weaving

Kiralyn2000

My thoughts?

I'm bad at it; but because I don't do any high-end and/or competitive content, it doesn't matter. /shrug

Hanokihs

I'd like it better if the devs actually knew how to balance the skills and larger combat system around it. As it stands, I'm constantly sitting around shaking my head and thinking, "This is a lot of button-mashing to feel like I'm doing zero damage."

spartaxoxo

I don't have a problem with it.

thadjarvis

For PvE dps
It gives me something to continue to learn and hone. If/when I perfect it I think DPS will start to become boring for me. Also really like that it gives lower CP/geared players an avenue into difficult content instead of just grinding.

PvP: similar idea but with lag I wouldn’t miss it

Noxavian

kathandira wrote: »

I know we have had polls about Animation Canceling in the past. But I wanted to see where people's opinions stand based on the platform they play on.

Feel free to answer the poll, and also discuss what you like, or do not like about these things. Please state your platform when discussing the topic.

Animation cancelling is pretty stupid and regardless of what people think they're working to remove it anyways.

Animations are there for a reason.

As they mentioned, cancelling animations causes a de-sync to occur and is over-all pretty bad.

Septimus_Magna

I like weaving as a mechanic very much, its a skill that everyone can develop regardless of CP, gear, age etc.

I dont really use block cancelling but I understand thats important to prioritize block over the animation of skills so I dont have a problem with it.

Barswap cancel helps to speed up combat and is easy to learn so its also fine imo.

youninjabro

I personally like it, makes combat feel way more fluid and dynamic in my opinion.

Without it I think it’d be way more boring, just sitting there spamming skills and whatnot I’m all for it.

Nerouyn

Hate.

Uvi_AUT

I like it. It makes the combat flow in a unique way.
Only problem is the gap between people who do it and people who dont.
You can literally do like 500% more damage just be Weaving and Canceling.
Thats one of the main reasons why the difficulty in ESO is all over the place. Things are either ridiculously easy (Overland Content, Normal Dungeons, nMA) or impossibly hard (DLC-Vetdungeons). I understand why. There is no way to design challenging content when you have to factor in 500% DPS-Differences.

Sephyr

I've played other games where they try to do what ESO has made and fell severely short on the mechanics of both player abilities and combat mechanics. Here's hoping they do more with it!

r34lian

Well I don't care nor do I have problem weaving but relating animation cancelling to "skill" feels very dumb
You don't associate bugs with skill

FierceSam

I would like it a load more if ZOS introduced some in game tutorials and practice features which allowed you to understand and fine tune your AC abilities.

As it is, I have to rely on external tutorials and combat metrics to allow me to see whether I am going LA skill, LA skill. And even then it doesn’t tell me if I am getting any benefit from the LA animation cancelling.

Na0cho

I like how it makes the game feel more responsive and faster but I get that some people cannot do it so honestly the animations themselves should just be changed imo so NO ONE has to sit through a long animation without having to cancel it.

sekou_trayvond

I have no ability to do whatever this is. Mebbe by accident sometimes? /shrug

I press buttons. Things die. Am happy.

Seems like a big hullabaloo over nothing.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I would rather weaving not have such a significance in terms of damage but as a skill gap it is a nice progression (if only the servers were performant enough to make it viable for everyone)

ZeroXFF

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

ZeroXFF

Stebarnz wrote: »

forztr2 wrote: »

I hate weaving because:-

having to mindless click the left mouse button every second during combat just aggravates the RSI in my right shoulder.

the server connections are too inconsistent and screw up the timings which are different for different skills.

I'd much rather they had a shorter internal cooldown for skills to maintain the "pace" of combat and ditched weaving. I'd also like the option to have skills fire on key-press instead of key-release.

Get an auto clicking mouse to left click once a second for you on a toggle?

I mean if I got injured by pressing a mouse button I would look at a lifestyle change.

Sounds like you're advocating for usage of macros, proving anti-AC people's point. LA weaving with AC is absolute garbage, and macros are the only way to make the game enjoyable as long as that's the way it works.

Stebarnz

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

forztr2 wrote: »

I hate weaving because:-

having to mindless click the left mouse button every second during combat just aggravates the RSI in my right shoulder.

the server connections are too inconsistent and screw up the timings which are different for different skills.

I'd much rather they had a shorter internal cooldown for skills to maintain the "pace" of combat and ditched weaving. I'd also like the option to have skills fire on key-press instead of key-release.

Get an auto clicking mouse to left click once a second for you on a toggle?

I mean if I got injured by pressing a mouse button I would look at a lifestyle change.

Sounds like you're advocating for usage of macros, proving anti-AC people's point. LA weaving with AC is absolute garbage, and macros are the only way to make the game enjoyable as long as that's the way it works.

Merely offering a way to ease this persons suffering, I wouldn't mind if someone for medical reasons ran a auto clicking mouse as it wouldn't change anything, you are the one with the problem!

If you cant play this game then don't, but don't try to bring other people down to your low skill level by advocating slowing things down to a crawl.

Stebarnz

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Shantu

If I've learned anything about ZOS and ESO it's to suck it up and adapt. No one who gives a poo is actually listening.

Ermiq

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players (122 vs 85) and 44% of console players (34 vs 22) don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.
Yeah, it's still a majority but it's actually pretty close to 50/50.

Siohwenoeht

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players and 44% of console players don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.

And the poll is of a small subset of all players. You can only say that more forum goers like a/c than don't.

Just ask my parents, they grew up before a/c. They hated it. They never want it to go away actually.😉

ZeroXFF

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

It's not really popular though. What you're seeing on the forums is the result of selection bias. You don't see people who quit the game because of it, and I guarantee you, they are not an insignificant portion of the players who did not stick around.

Also, nobody stayed because of it, a lot of people merely got used to it and are unwilling to change, hence you get the impression of it being "popular".

Ermiq

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Ermiq wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

Popular?
This poll shows that 41% of PC players and 44% of console players don't like it actually.
Also, 13% of the people who have participated in the poll don't care if there's AC or not.

And the poll is of a small subset of all players. You can only say that more forum goers like a/c than don't.

Just ask my parents, they grew up before a/c. They hated it. They never want it to go away actually.😉

Certainly, forum citizens are not those who represent the community. Yep.

MEBengalsFan2001

I honestly don't care but if animation cancelling is causing a rift in the community than it needs to be looked into to see what fixes can be applied to improve the game play.

Not all players are equal in skill when it comes to optimized timing of animation cancelling to maximize damage.

Easy way to fix this issue is the damage of abilities are applied after the animation has completed; cancelling the animation prior to it finishing results in zero damage. When I have seen this added to the game top damage dealer that are use to using animation canceling become the trash damage dealers and player who allow the animation to flow move to the top of the damage dealing ranking; over time both groups get closer to overall damage.

Some games simply force the animation and lock the player from doing anything else until that animation is completed, basically all abilities become channeling abilities. This doesn't solve the problem as there are time when you may want to cancel your animation.

My recommendation is going through all abilities adjust some to become channeling, some of them add a casting time, and the last group simply make them instant and reduce the animation for the ability by 50-75%. These minor tweaks would improve the overall experience for all players. This way animation cancelling and light attack weaving would still be in the game but the abilities offering it would be less than there are now, this would help get the players who may presently struggle with maximizing their damage from animation cancelling; this would shrink the gap between top players and average players.

As a side note, top players would still be able to do more damage because animation cancelling would still exist just not to the level it does today.

Stebarnz

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

I would like to add that AC is only bad if it's used for raw damage increase, not if it's used for defense. So LA weaving is bad, bash weaving too, but less so, because it's only very situationally usable and comes with a drawback. Block or dodge cancelling isn't.

I'm torn when it comes to bar swap, because it does increase DPS, but it is also used defensively when one has 1hs backbar or a shield skill. It would however be much more intuitive and immersive if a weapon swap was a tactical decision, and not a part of a rotation. When fighting someone irl, you wouldn't constantly swap weapons to do damage, you would do so if the situation changed (the enemy moved away, or you suddenly have to defend against a group of enemies), would be nice if that approach was reflected in game. I don't know how to do it though, and it would require a lot of fundamental changes to combat, so idk if it's good for the game or better be left to an ESO2.

Given how popular LA weaving and A/C is with ESO then they will definitely have it in ESO2 so better buck up buttercup.

It's not really popular though. What you're seeing on the forums is the result of selection bias. You don't see people who quit the game because of it, and I guarantee you, they are not an insignificant portion of the players who did not stick around.

Also, nobody stayed because of it, a lot of people merely got used to it and are unwilling to change, hence you get the impression of it being "popular".

Think what you want and say what you want, I have proof, you don't!

A/C is more popular than not, end of chat.

Hearing this BS a lot lately, majority votes one way but yet the minority coming up with random ass crap to poo poo the figures because they cant take being told they are wrong. If it was a vote A/C stays, if they change it, it wont matter this game hasn't got a long life left either way.

Main reason and lets face it there is only 1 why they wont change it $$$$$$$ its not profitable to do so.

Stebarnz

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I honestly don't care but if animation cancelling is causing a rift in the community than it needs to be looked into to see what fixes can be applied to improve the game play.

Not all players are equal in skill when it comes to optimized timing of animation cancelling to maximize damage.

Easy way to fix this issue is the damage of abilities are applied after the animation has completed; cancelling the animation prior to it finishing results in zero damage. When I have seen this added to the game top damage dealer that are use to using animation canceling become the trash damage dealers and player who allow the animation to flow move to the top of the damage dealing ranking; over time both groups get closer to overall damage.

Some games simply force the animation and lock the player from doing anything else until that animation is completed, basically all abilities become channeling abilities. This doesn't solve the problem as there are time when you may want to cancel your animation.

My recommendation is going through all abilities adjust some to become channeling, some of them add a casting time, and the last group simply make them instant and reduce the animation for the ability by 50-75%. These minor tweaks would improve the overall experience for all players. This way animation cancelling and light attack weaving would still be in the game but the abilities offering it would be less than there are now, this would help get the players who may presently struggle with maximizing their damage from animation cancelling; this would shrink the gap between top players and average players.

As a side note, top players would still be able to do more damage because animation cancelling would still exist just not to the level it does today.

Whats this shrink the gap between top and bottom??? Do you have this attitude in all walks of life?

Olympics? football? NBA? doctors? That man can run too fast, attach weights to him that'll slow him down to my pace!

Just take your participation medal and stop trying to handicap people.

There will always be people who are bad and people who are good at everything, its up to you where you land! How do you get to Carnegie hall?

d0e1ow

The game's combat is bad in general, and the people who defend this game's laggy, de-synced, absolutely chaotic, button mashy gameplay by trying to pretend being good at ESO is some kind of noble skill the plebs should aspire to are delusional.

Combat is the number one cited reason in my experience for why people dislike the game. It has a horrible reputation for a reason, and that reason probably isn't "cuz they just need to l2p" like the lag causing locusts of Cyrodiil and "Vet Trials" gosugamers seem to imply.

d0e1ow

Stebarnz wrote: »

Whats this shrink the gap between top and bottom??? Do you have this attitude in all walks of life?

Olympics? football? NBA? doctors? That man can run too fast, attach weights to him that'll slow him down to my pace!

Just take your participation medal and stop trying to handicap people.

There will always be people who are bad and people who are good at everything, its up to you where you land! How do you get to Carnegie hall?

Comparing being a virtuoso musician or Olympic athlete to being a weirdo who is overly invested in defending a gameplay bug. A real big brain moment from you.

Stebarnz

d0e1ow wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

Whats this shrink the gap between top and bottom??? Do you have this attitude in all walks of life?

Olympics? football? NBA? doctors? That man can run too fast, attach weights to him that'll slow him down to my pace!

Just take your participation medal and stop trying to handicap people.

There will always be people who are bad and people who are good at everything, its up to you where you land! How do you get to Carnegie hall?

Comparing being a virtuoso musician or Olympic athlete to being a weirdo who is overly invested in defending a gameplay bug. A real big brain moment from you.

C'mon man, you're not a weirdo.

Semantics.