Normalize the Races - Let Us Pick Our Racials, Rename Them Adventurer Skills

TankHealz2015

Love to have a choose your own passives/ birth stone type racial passive system.

Each race has 5 - 6 racial passive options that are all in sync with the lore.
From those options you would choose 3 - 4.

This would allow players to make their characters more personalized
Enhance the role play/ identity aspects of the character creation process.

Deioth

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Put me down as a "no" to normalized races. Like it or not, the Elder Scrolls is an extended universe and they've always come with their own set of racial passive and active skills. We can debate on what those skills should be in the context of ESO, but to throw them to the side entirely wouldn't make sense in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

And yet, you aren't capped out at 75 skill points in weapons skills as an Altmer in the single player games, so you being able to hit 100 in Blade means you can be just as good as a Redguard or Dunmer or any other Blade bonus race. However, in ESO, you're never as good as Stamina and Weapon races as a stamina Altmer. People argue that races will lose their identity through homogenization, but when it comes to actual moment to moment gameplay ESO is more restrictive and arbitrarily so. This is why the skill point cost racial passives should be reworked into "Adventurer Skills" to reflect your individual character's abilities. The "Tier 0" free passive would remain the racial bonus while players could then choose their desired passive from each following tier's pool. Stats in the SP games were associated to skill lines, but now there are no skill lines. A change like this would actually better reflect the original games and fit far better into an MMO format than current.

Drammanoth wrote: »

Equality is BS. If one wants ALL races to have THE SAME racial traits, sooo... where's the variety? We choose a given race more on the basis of the traits they have (gameplay), and we know why they have them (lore).

Also, I do realise there are some average Joes who just play ESO to waste away their life. No RP, no fun - just wasting time "getting achievements" (because they haven't acheived much in real life).

My TOTALLY BLIND guess is that people got accustomed to being able to be just about any race and class by WoW. Yes, there were some limitations - mind you, *some* is the keyword here - but in general a Human, just like an Orc could have been a proficient rogue, mage, warlock, warrior etc. In latter expansions it got even more convoluted, as some races were allowed to be what they were not originally. In ESO you can be whichever race and class you want and succeed (or fail) on the basis of your choices.

No one is arguing for the same traits. The "Tier 0" free passive would remain the racial identity passive because it reflects well to what the original SP games did. Opening up Tiers 1-3 as "Adventurer Skills" would better reflect what the SP games did because you could get to 100 Heavy Armor whether you were an Orc, a Wood Elf, or a Breton. We only have health, magicka, stamina, spell damage, and weapon damage in ESO. Clinging to a more strict racial identity with a base system that is already far more restricted itself is an active detriment to RP and an active detriment to player choice for the min-maxers. In the SP games I could be just as good a spell caster as an Orc as an Altmer. That isn't the case in ESO.

And WoW is a bad example. Its racials (at least when I played) were negligible in use or value, it features far less variety in build options, and it has class locking. There is no class lock in ESO.

Stx wrote: »

I dont think they should ever do away with racial bonuses. There is no point in letting you choose them, that's what gear and mundus stones are for.

If anything, they could reduce their overall effectiveness, like instead of 2k stamina 258 weapon damage for an orc, it could be 1080 stamina and 129 weapon damage, or even 700 stam/ 80 damage.

The different races have always been born with natural traits... this game does NOT need homogenization.

If you want to play an orc wizard, or a high elf warrior, you can do that, and be VERY effective... just not quite AS effective as a high elf mage or an orc warrior, because evolution has shaped those races that way.

Honestly, the bottom line is, if you care about min/maxing then pick your race for the stats. If you care about your characters race for RP reasons, then forget about min/maxing and just have fun.

No one is arguing to get rid of racial bonuses. The "Tier 0" bonuses would remain the racial identifiers. And no, gear and mundus stones will never make a stamina build Breton as good as a stamina build Redguard because they can get the same gear and stones, and that is the point of this post. Yet, a heavy armor and axe Breton in the SP games COULD be just as good as a heavy armor and axe Orc or Redguard because that is how those games' stat systems worked. In the moment to moment gameplay, there was very little that most racials genuinely did unless you want to include the active skill racials which ESO does not have and were not moment to moment gameplay since they often had game-day long cooldowns.

The stats VS RP reasons argument is a red herring, as well. If I want to RP as an orc wizard, my stats should reflect that. My skills and prowess should reflect that. In ESO, they do not, because instead of being able to get magicka bonuses as an orc I am forced into less to non-helpful stamina and weapon related passives. The argument for turning racials into Adventurer Skills is pro roleplay and pro min-max. There is no logical argument in any roleplay, gameplay, or lore related point against this proposal given the base design of ESO and the base design of the SP games it was based on.

And when the game first launched, racial passives were incredibly negligible. Making them useful in the first place is what introduced the problem of how they negatively affect player agency and choice in min-maxing and in roleplay.

Stx

But that's simply not true... many races have always had passive bonuses. Bretons and argonians for sure. Not to mention each race started with different stats in past games such as strength, willpower, etc. Which basically equate to stamina and magicka in this game. The racial passives always mattered in older TES games... the only difference was that you could eventually level everything to 100 and cap everything... which you cant do in this game.

Cathexis

Idk why they wouldn't make racials just focus on game variables that don't provide immediate combat benefits. Then racials wouldn't impact things like trials or PvP.

Things like
-Gold gains
-Quest reward bonuses
-Experience bonuses
-Fencing bonuses
-Crafting supply costs
-Bag space
-Crafting experience bonuses
-Out of combat bonuses (recoveries, running or mount speed, sprint cost, skill costs)
-Bounty
-Non score AP gains
-Food/Drink durations
-Skill line gains
-Pickpocketing
-Lockpicking

There is a lot they can offer without emphasizing base stats, and I'm sure there's more things I haven't listed.

Deioth

Stx wrote: »

the only difference was that you could eventually level everything to 100 and cap everything... which you cant do in this game.

My entire point. Racial stuff in the SP games were more flavor and preference, if you wanted to be a master mage it was just easier to get there as certain races, but all could get the same "important" stuff in the end. There is no grinding you can do to get missing magicka as an orc or redguard or imperial or nord etc.. Simply revamping racials (those that cost skill points) to be available to everyone matches the SP games and the MMO's inherent design and systems far better than arbitrary "Magicka users should only be X races" for both RP and min-max both.

gabriebe

That's what Mundus Stones are for. The current racial passives are pretty decently balanced in the sense that they still give people going against the type something they can use that is relevant.

Stx

Deioth wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

the only difference was that you could eventually level everything to 100 and cap everything... which you cant do in this game.

My entire point. Racial stuff in the SP games were more flavor and preference, if you wanted to be a master mage it was just easier to get there as certain races, but all could get the same "important" stuff in the end. There is no grinding you can do to get missing magicka as an orc or redguard or imperial or nord etc.. Simply revamping racials (those that cost skill points) to be available to everyone matches the SP games and the MMO's inherent design and systems far better than arbitrary "Magicka users should only be X races" for both RP and min-max both.

And I'm saying your point is flawed, because racial passives impacted the traditional elder scrolls games in a huge way...

Deioth

Stx wrote: »

Deioth wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

the only difference was that you could eventually level everything to 100 and cap everything... which you cant do in this game.

My entire point. Racial stuff in the SP games were more flavor and preference, if you wanted to be a master mage it was just easier to get there as certain races, but all could get the same "important" stuff in the end. There is no grinding you can do to get missing magicka as an orc or redguard or imperial or nord etc.. Simply revamping racials (those that cost skill points) to be available to everyone matches the SP games and the MMO's inherent design and systems far better than arbitrary "Magicka users should only be X races" for both RP and min-max both.

And I'm saying your point is flawed, because racial passives impacted the traditional elder scrolls games in a huge way...

I missed out on Arena and Daggerfall, but I still remember Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. For better or worse, over time, races have had less and less dramatic gameplay affecting racial differences, but for the moment to moment gameplay, the core gameplay loop, every race could do every thing (unless you were Argonian/Khajiit and found the Boots of Levitation and promptly cursed every Divine and Daedra equally and furiously). In the end, I'd be just as good a warrior at 100 blade and heavy armor as an Imperial as I would a Breton. I'd be just as good a mage at 100 destruction conjuration as a Dunmer as I would a Redguard. The only difference is how long it would take me to hit 100 stat points. The problem with the current iteration of racials in ESO is that this same model is not being followed whatsoever. In ESO, I fundamentally am not as good a warrior as a Breton because that is how Breton's racials work. I am fundamentally not as good a mage as a Redguard for the same reason. Full stop. This is what I am getting at. If they really want to introduce more interesting and thematic racial bonuses, they certainly can, but in keeping with the original games' design, the inherent design of ESO, the very nature of a themepark MMO, improving RP options, and benefiting min-maxers, they absolutely should turn Tiers 1-3 of the racial skills into Adventurer Skills that anyone can get (with some, especially redundant ones, being tweaked and balanced out or rolled together into one single passive)

Perhaps this is the better way to word my argument: Races' combat potential should be normalized by making non-class stat affecting passives universally accessible because this is how the previous games worked. Had ESO been designed from the ground up to make picking a race a meaningful choice then this post would never have happened. I mean, look at Crowfall as an excellent example of where race is a deeply important choice to building your character, compare that to WoW where it's more aesthetic/class and faction preference. ESO is only modestly improved over WoW in that respect because race stats mean something, but given the inherent design of the game that is just a silly, arbitrary, and restrictive execution of giving races interesting differences.

Deioth

gabriebe wrote: »

That's what Mundus Stones are for. The current racial passives are pretty decently balanced in the sense that they still give people going against the type something they can use that is relevant.

No, this is not what Mundus stones are for, because every race can take every mundus bonus. I don't magically overcome a Redguard's bonuses to stamina and weapon skills by taking a stamina boosting mundus as a Breton. They are still better than a Breton and they can leave me just as far behind as a Breton by taking the same stone buff anyway.

Drammanoth

Deioth said:
I still remember Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. For better or worse, over time, races have had less and less dramatic gameplay affecting racial differences, but for the moment to moment gameplay, the core gameplay loop, every race could do every thing (unless you were Argonian/Khajiit and found the Boots of Levitation and promptly cursed every Divine and Daedra equally and furiously). In the end, I'd be just as good a warrior at 100 blade and heavy armor as an Imperial as I would a Breton. I'd be just as good a mage at 100 destruction conjuration as a Dunmer as I would a Redguard. The only difference is how long it would take me to hit 100 stat points.

Yes, racials were becoming negligible in the endgame in TES IV and V – but this was in single-players; the primary difference for me – and thus the thing that made me buy ESO - was that ESO is multi-player, not single. Here, there has to be something that makes other races different - but making them different on the basis of ONE trait is silly. However, what TankHealz2015 said would be great:

TankHealz2015
Each race has 5 - 6 racial passive options that are all in sync with the lore.
From those options you would choose 3 - 4.

This would allow players to make their characters more personalized
Enhance the role play/ identity aspects of the character creation process.

Absolutely love this idea. Not every Dunmer has to be skilled in Dual Wielding, BUT environmental lava resistance, or at least fire resistance, is by all means reasonable and justified.

Deioth said:
The problem with the current iteration of racials in ESO is that this same model is not being followed whatsoever. In ESO, I fundamentally am not as good a warrior as a Breton because that is how Breton's racials work. I am fundamentally not as good a mage as a Redguard for the same reason. Full stop.

This is not a „problem” but a solution to the homogeniety that was present in IV and V. Nobody is born equal, no terrain in all Nirn is equal everywhere.

Deioth said:
Had ESO been designed from the ground up to make picking a race a meaningful choice

Don’t we choose race because of the lore and/or the passives that they have?

Deioth said:
I mean, look at Crowfall as an excellent example of where race is a deeply important choice to building your character

Do you mean identifying yourself with the character? I haven’t played the game, and Crowfall wikia doesn’t offer much info – contary to UESP.

temjiu

First off, Probably won't happen. Although I respect the desire to have the change happen, it isn't my first choice. I'm perfectly fine with the current structure in place.

Also, completely opening up every racial for players to pick and choose is pretty much destructive to the concept of the passives to begin with. each race has some nice ones a and some averages ones and some poor ones (mostly) for "balance" (tm). if they open them up, they might as well just delete half the passives, because no one would take them.

The better solution (if they were to change it), would be to set up Adventurer "background" sets. Like the nord passives could be set up under the "Northern Barbarian" background. The Argonian set could be placed in the "Hist Shaman" Background, etc. That way you gotta take the good with the bad, but it's not linked to race. This would enhance the RP aspect, keep the passive groups as a balanced whole forcing choice, but allow players to pick a look they like along with a background buff that they want.

Something else they could do to keep the races themselves special is to give them a bonus to their actual racial backgrounds. Like if a Nord chose the "Northern Barbarian" background, they'd get a minor increase to the passive stats (since it's they racial and cultural background). This all would enhance both sides of the debate without overtly affecting one or the other. I honestly think it would enhance the current RP options, while allowing flexibility for those who just want the min/max.

Luckylancer

Changin racials to weaker for of other races would be nice. People will get their aestetics but at a cost.

Imperial: get 1500 mana instead of 2k stam etc. This would hurt no one.

Stx

Honestly all they need to do is balance the racials a little better. Orc being the elephant in the room.

Vyvrhel

A very good idea.

Deioth

Drammanoth wrote: »

Yes, racials were becoming negligible in the endgame in TES IV and V – but this was in single-players; the primary difference for me – and thus the thing that made me buy ESO - was that ESO is multi-player, not single. Here, there has to be something that makes other races different - but making them different on the basis of ONE trait is silly. However, what TankHealz2015 said would be great:

There does not necessarily need to be any single thing that makes them different other than lore and aesthetics. TES as a series has always given you the room to create any character you wanted and master any skill. This is the fundamental problem with ESO's current approach to racial skills. Morrowind is rather a benchmark it seems to me and that game's most fundamental differences between races was mostly starting stats, but all could hit 100 in a skill (beast races' not withstanding with gear restrictions). There were a couple passive things, but that didn't prevent you from playing what you wanted to, even if it was against the natural or typical affinity of that race. You cannot achieve the equivalent of 100 in a skill in ESO because of the way the stat system works in akin to the racials. With things intentionally normalized for sake of an MMO setting with competitive PvP we were in a reasonably acceptable spot in vanilla because racials were minute in what they'd provide. Compare that to now where they can on their own represent pieces of gear and buffs. They should just let us pick and choose.

And no, Tankhealz idea would just make the current problem worse and be a more complicated attempt to fix than what I propose.

This is not a „problem” but a solution to the homogeniety that was present in IV and V. Nobody is born equal, no terrain in all Nirn is equal everywhere.

With all due respect, this is not an argument, and is one I've already countered repeatedly. Homogeniety has been inherent in every TES game, except now ESO is an exception because they made racials that much more impactful.

Don’t we choose race because of the lore and/or the passives that they have?

Especially in an MMO that was built from the ground up as homogenized only for racials to be significantly altered post launch, we can no longer choose the race we want if we care about having passives that work with the build I want, let alone match up to how I imagine my character. The stat differences in races today are an inherent deterrent to roleplaying the character you really want to.

Do you mean identifying yourself with the character? I haven’t played the game, and Crowfall wikia doesn’t offer much info – contary to UESP.

Crowfall is in alpha right now. It features by design choice class restrictions so only certain races can be certain classes and each race is fundamentally different in far more than mere starting stats, nevermind that starting stats in CF are a significant part of choosing how to build your character compared to the likes of TES series. In ESO, prior to the racials pass that brought us to the current iteration, the most fundamental difference in actual racial powers was the free Tier 0 power that served to represent something of the race's traditional inherent bonuses and benefits. ESO's most significant problem with racials right now as that there are some that are actually useless if you don't build in a way that race wants you to, and that was never a thing in previous TES games. THAT is why they should become universal "Adventurer Skills".

Deioth

temjiu wrote: »

*snip*

There certainly are some racials that would need to be tweaked, either due to redundancy or due to potential balance problems because of they tier it is on, but here's the thing about that... Stacking towards a particular stat or bonus is kind of the point. This will greatly enhance build choice because it would be tremendously unlikely any particular or given set of passives would outpace every other. There are really good passives in each tier so the choices become a lot more meaningful. And, having a ton of stamina or "martial" related adv skills as an Altmer would represent that Altmer's background and skill set rather than sticking him with useless magicka bonuses if he just wants to swing an axe around, instead.

universal_wrath

Deioth wrote: »

Everyone has their aesthetic choices, but PvP (and to a lesser extent PvE) requires smart builds and with the way this game's design works out you're gimping yourself playing a magicka orc, for example, or a stamina argonian. The free racial seems to be the thematic racial while the rest push you towards certain builds for certain races. I like playing Argonian, but I'm gimped with a stamina build compared to Orc or Khajiit for example. Basically, I think that the three other racials should be freely chosen from among all race's racials of that "tier", so to explain Orc's "Brawny" and Breton's "Gift of Magnus" would share the same racial pool since that's the first racial tier. They would be renamed Adventurer Skills to fit with the change and improve clarity that you're picking these bonuses as a character. Resetting your skills would allow you to pick different Adventurer Skills.

This would not only allow players to choose races entirely aesthetically, a powerful tool for such a roleplay friendly game, but would make for a compelling new layer of depth in creating builds. Since every race can play every class and learn every skill line, and given the impact of the racial pass making racials that much more useful, a normalization pass so we can pick the racials we want would be a wonderful QOL feature.

I would rather normalize the classes skill lines more than the races.

Spearpoint

With the whole gender equality this, gender equality that going on in the world; for the love of Y'ffre, please stop this.

Lets keep Nirn a safehaven ...Where all the races can be whatever they set out to be, without being forced to be more similar to each other than they should be. Let men, mer, Beastfolk all choose for themselves. Even drunken Nords.


MOAR DIVERSITY!

ThePedge

You can use any race, on any class, for any role, in any content, as it is now.

Sure if you want to make life easier or min-max you want certain races for their passives. But it won't completely gimp your character.

The only reason I would agree is so I didn't have to play an ugly Orc to min-max. But once in-game you can't tell from the back of his head.

Deioth

universal_wrath wrote: »

I would rather normalize the classes skill lines more than the races.

They designed the MMO a particular way, for better or worse, so normalizing the classes now would just be a bad idea. Rather than a build diversity game, the core of it is designed around distinct classes, so each class should feel unique enough in its own right to play. Normalizing that would be an unnecessary expense of time and resources for minimal gain.

ThePedge wrote: »

You can use any race, on any class, for any role, in any content, as it is now.

Sure if you want to make life easier or min-max you want certain races for their passives. But it won't completely gimp your character.

The only reason I would agree is so I didn't have to play an ugly Orc to min-max. But once in-game you can't tell from the back of his head.

True enough that I won't be "gimped" but it is very pigeonholey in a game that initially didn't feature impactful racial skills. They were flavorful but not nearly as significant because they were fairly low percentage boosts.

Sinolai

When they tweaked racial passives last time I was hoping they would add something for both magicka and stamina game play for each race but that didn't happen, although it was a big improvement to old racials. Although I'd like to see some tweaking for the racials I hope that doesn't happen for atleast a year. ZoS has made too many flips back and forth with skills and passives lately.

Xologamer

Deioth wrote: »

Everyone has their aesthetic choices, but PvP (and to a lesser extent PvE) requires smart builds and with the way this game's design works out you're gimping yourself playing a magicka orc, for example, or a stamina argonian. The free racial seems to be the thematic racial while the rest push you towards certain builds for certain races. I like playing Argonian, but I'm gimped with a stamina build compared to Orc or Khajiit for example. Basically, I think that the three other racials should be freely chosen from among all race's racials of that "tier", so to explain Orc's "Brawny" and Breton's "Gift of Magnus" would share the same racial pool since that's the first racial tier. They would be renamed Adventurer Skills to fit with the change and improve clarity that you're picking these bonuses as a character. Resetting your skills would allow you to pick different Adventurer Skills.

This would not only allow players to choose races entirely aesthetically, a powerful tool for such a roleplay friendly game, but would make for a compelling new layer of depth in creating builds. Since every race can play every class and learn every skill line, and given the impact of the racial pass making racials that much more useful, a normalization pass so we can pick the racials we want would be a wonderful QOL feature.

now u say its good for roleplayer but trust me if they realese something i can already see the forum posts: new system breaks immersion,.....

Stx

Vote no on prop H! (Homogenization)

peacenote

Cathexis wrote: »

Idk why they wouldn't make racials just focus on game variables that don't provide immediate combat benefits. Then racials wouldn't impact things like trials or PvP.

Thank you! This is what I've been saying.

I am surprised that there are so many people against this idea when the last update made Bosmers so useless there was an "open letter" on the forums that went on for months. And a smaller uproar when Argonians lost their poison resistance.

The bottom line (to me) is that ESO shouldn't lose touch with its lore roots but having passives impacting combat, in an MMO, doesn't need to be one of those purist things. Especially since racials can be, have been, and may again be "balanced" which means that it's NOT like a traditional TES game where those racials are set in stone. They make a difference, but what each race excels IN doesn't stay static and this means it's not really a part of that race's identity. Next balance patch might completely break the vision for your character.

Class identity makes sense to me, because you choose a class because you're interested in a certain play style, and the class skills work together to create a unique experience. I'd like to see more effort be made to make classes feel unique, but make it so that racial choices are more driven by a player's lore preference. Quest dialogues should address your race, for example.

Sometimes I think we hold on very tightly to how ESO was when it launched, even though it has chanced significantly since then, and the mistakes made by ZOS and devs when trying to appease both viewpoints result in the compromises and nonsensical decisions we see today. After One Tamriel, Any Race, Any Alliance, Race Change tokens, and Racial Passive Balances, it just doesn't make sense, in my opinion, to cling to the idea that racial passives must be unique for ESO to feel like a TES game. All this really does is make it so end game, veteran players can't enjoy the role and the look of their characters as much as they'd like.

Deioth

peacenote wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Idk why they wouldn't make racials just focus on game variables that don't provide immediate combat benefits. Then racials wouldn't impact things like trials or PvP.

Thank you! This is what I've been saying.

Exactly why they should just be "Adventurer Skills" and be done with it. There is no inherent problem with races having fundamentally different passive sets, but it only works if the game is designed around it, of which ESO never was.

All this really does is make it so end game, veteran players can't enjoy the role and the look of their characters as much as they'd like.

Among the many why I proposed this idea in the first place. The current iteration just plain doesn't make sense from a balance or lore or player choice perspective.

Sayaka

I haven't read rest of the comments, however I agree with you. In an old mmo game that is dead nowadays (the servers are still up fsr... classic area probably trying to milk money. Nvm aeria is not the subject) had a race system similar to ESO's but more general.

All races have some sort of bonus towards their class. For example a human mage could cast faster, a zumi mage had more mana (idk what they really give im writing directly out of my mind) etc. So every race had their own unique bonuses, to all playstyles. These little bonuses didn't matter that much in the game, however they also had general traits you could choose from before creating a character. Every race had access to all traits. For example Leadership which increased health and mana, Guardian which increased your defense and resistances or Wisdom which increased healing and wisdom (there are more ofc, approximately 12 or something).

In Elder Scrolls, there are also Nord Mages (which ancient nord mages had a lot of impact on the lore), High Elf Warriors, Breton Assassins etc. However in this game, you cannot make an Altmer warrior. Not because you can't, but because of mostly ESO max-min community. I think implementing a bonus system like above could be very good. Maybe a magicka-focused nord could have more spell and elemental resistance, keeping their theme of being hardy. I think they could do something like this:

Every race has a base racial bonus. For example the bonus on Imperials finding extra coins. Then there could be 3 seperate Racial Traits to choose from. One focused on Magicka-Focused gameplay, one Stamina and the other Health. But every races would be different. Like High Elves magicka trait could be more on destruction while Argonians are more on restoration. Just my thoughts. I actually want to make several characters that their race and gameplay dont fit. However I dont think this will be implemented because ESO.

Aptonoth

I hate the restricted races. I think ESO is the only mmo around that does this. FF 14 has deep race lore that could easily force certain races to play certain ways, but they don't. Even the races in the old republic and world of warcraft again in lore these races should all be super different and be limited in play style.

However almost every mmo knows it has to sacrifice this for player choice and customization to mean anything in the end game. The only dumb MMO that doesn't get this is ESO for some reason. In a singleplayer having race specific abilities is fantastic because it doesn't affect anyone or anything except one players experience. However in an MMO player's have their favoruties they all like, but at the same time end game might force them to play one way. Having races forced into specific niches is the dumbest thing you can do form an MMO because it affects lots of players.

I wish I wasn't being gimped as an Argonian dps player but I am. Each race needs to have the same bonuses or completely do away with them. Or make them roleplaying only abilities. I don't get the argument of limiting player choice just because you hate to see people playing different things. It's a very selfish attitude to have.

MLGProPlayer

idk wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

For most people the bonuses actually add flavor to the races, and unless you are doing high end vet trials or making PvP montages (which many are not) then it's not going to make a significant difference in how the game plays out.

This is very accurate. A players skill plays the biggest factor for how well a character does vs gear, set bonus, set bonus and race passives.

What happens when you face someone of equal skill?

OmniDo

Breton Vampire Master race.

idk

Stx wrote: »

I dont think they should ever do away with racial bonuses. There is no point in letting you choose them, that's what gear and mundus stones are for.

If anything, they could reduce their overall effectiveness, like instead of 2k stamina 258 weapon damage for an orc, it could be 1080 stamina and 129 weapon damage, or even 700 stam/ 80 damage.

The different races have always been born with natural traits... this game does NOT need homogenization.

If you want to play an orc wizard, or a high elf warrior, you can do that, and be VERY effective... just not quite AS effective as a high elf mage or an orc warrior, because evolution has shaped those races that way.

Honestly, the bottom line is, if you care about min/maxing then pick your race for the stats. If you care about your characters race for RP reasons, then forget about min/maxing and just have fun.

You are correct that they should never get rid of racial bonuses because then it makes the choice of race boring and pointless. OP's idea is boring.

As for your comments, Zos already reduced the overall effectiveness when they changed from a % increase to stats or other aspects to the flat value you noticed. There is a lot of freedom of choice with how the passives are now. People may have preference as to how it is done in other games, but this is not those other games.