Normalize the Races - Let Us Pick Our Racials, Rename Them Adventurer Skills

hakan

Deathlord92 wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

if you think it matters that much you dont know sht about the game.

racials always had huge impact on ES single games. Even after maxing out.

PvE wise, they posted dummy results here and they didnt even have like 10k damage difference. it was around 2-3k at most and considering damage parses were around 60-70k and difference is scalable, you wont feel anything with your pesky 30-40k parse.

For pvp, you always need to bank on different stats not just your max mag/stam. Most people wear shackle like hybrid sets or make enchants to benefit all three stats.

you can use your bretons innate magicka abilities and never have to invest on magicka if you wanna play stam.

Source: Day1 dunmer stambladehere.

Day 1 Breton stamblade my yt channel has lots of 1vxs 1v1s I literally have no problems but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to improve my stats my Breton is a cutthroat not a mage

thing is whether you want or not, you are kind of a mage anyway in this universe.

Every skill stamblade uses are magic. Killer blade, Ambush, incap, surprise attack. Only weapons seem pyhsical even they have some magic too.

Cuttthroats arent rtards that cant use magic. (except nords?? LOL)

AcadianPaladin

Thing is, our characters are special - The Chosen One. In Oblivion, we were The Champion of Cyrodiil. In Skyrim we were The Dragonborn. In ESO we are The Vestige. We can do things no one else can do because we are so unique and special. Yet, when it comes to race, we must fit into a box. My Bosmer cannot be gifted with magic - she must get by on less magic talent than a Breton blacksmith. As unique as we are, it is not possible to be born as an Altmer who happens to be less than five feet tall.

I think that racial choice in ESO should restrain or limit us exactly as much as gender choice does (zero).

IronWooshu

I'm a magicka Imperial Dragonknight.. racial bonuses mean very little unless your a mix/max score pushing player.

Drako_Ei

Please do this, im sick and tired of being an orc

Deioth

vestahls wrote: »

If you care about the meta so much, then don't let aesthetics get in the way. And don't take away from one of the basic aspects of this game series, which is different racial pros and cons, because of your perceived "competitive" shortcomings.

If anything, I think the racials should be even more different and drastic. Ideally, Argonians should not be able to wear boots and closed helmets, because their bodies are too different to fit into normal armor. Same for Khajiit. ZOS is already being excessively generous imo.

MMORPGs are different animals from single player games, especially when said SP game you're comparing to can be modded freely. MMOs, for many people, is about playing the way that you want to. If there isn't sound enough reason between game lore (if it is that important) and game mechanics to apply certain things in certain ways (e.g. racial passives) then forcing them in place becomes arbitrary. MMOs like ESO are very friendly to theory crafting and creating lots of different builds and finding ones you like. It also has no class locking like most MMOs, let alone gender locking like more easterns. At launch, racial passives were flavorful but also nigh on meaningless in actual practice. Given the game's innate designs coupled with the racial overhaul making race choice a more important aspect to designing builds and the current design seems arbitrary. Some people like aesthetics AND min-max, or at least dislike feeling gimped for playing what they want.

And playing Argonian only to find the Boots of Levitation pissed me off because I couldn't wear them. Good design, bad implementation. If there was something only beast feet races could get as a reasonable equivalent, maybe, but I digress.

Bobby_V_Rockit

So we’d have even more tall cowboy hat wearing high elf ladies running around in spandex? Pass! No more elder fashions please

Deioth

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So we’d have even more tall cowboy hat wearing high elf ladies running around in spandex? Pass! No more elder fashions please

???

Lance_Caugheyb14_ESO

Hard disagree. Racial passives make every race feel unique and gives them some much needed flavor. You can always just play against your racial passives, the bonuses won't make or break your build.

Skjaldbjorn

More importantly, they need to balance out the abuse cases like Orcs, which was grossly overtuned.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Deioth wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So we’d have even more tall cowboy hat wearing high elf ladies running around in spandex? Pass! No more elder fashions please

???

I don’t know what platform you play on, but in Elden Root it seems 2 out of 3 players are a lady high elf in a cowboy hat and either the dark seducer costume or some type of spandex costume.

That bugs me enough as it is, but if race is made into a cosmetic only, then we’ll just see an influx of “pretty” characters and the whole thing will be purely RPing fashion scrolls online.

Fawn4287

Part of PvP is also knowing what you are fighting, knowing your opponent is an argonian lets you know when they use a pot they are going to get a huge resource boost, knowing you are fighting a woodelf or orc lets you know if they are going to run or roll, you wanting to have different aesthetics is for some mundane role-play reason would impede others. Can I also have my sword and board look like a bow and my dks buff look like an nbs while we’re at it?

newtinmpls

vestahls wrote: »

If anything, I think the racials should be even more different and drastic. Ideally, Argonians should not be able to wear boots and closed helmets, because their bodies are too different to fit into normal armor. Same for Khajiit. ZOS is already being excessively generous imo.

^^^quoted for truth. Yes, absolutely yes.

Dusk_Coven

(1) Lore-friendliness is an important part of ESO. Without that it's just another RPG. Even though they are trying very hard to destroy the lore now, what with pony imports from Noweyr and what not.
(2) I bet you someone will find a way to min-max their way into an exploit or unintended overtuned combination. If you care about meta, then absolutely not.
(3) They already try very hard to help you succeed no matter your power fantasy. Even if you chose the "wrong" build for a race, it's not unplayable. You won't be optimized, but if you care about roleplaying your character, that's not your top issue anyway.

Deioth

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Part of PvP is also knowing what you are fighting, knowing your opponent is an argonian lets you know when they use a pot they are going to get a huge resource boost, knowing you are fighting a woodelf or orc lets you know if they are going to run or roll, you wanting to have different aesthetics is for some mundane role-play reason would impede others. Can I also have my sword and board look like a bow and my dks buff look like an nbs while we’re at it?

With the sole exception of Argonian and Khajiit, every race looks exactly the same unless they choose to outfit hide their helmet and make it obvious and even then its difficult from distance. In full armor, my orc looks exactly like any man or mer in the same gear. You learn more knowing your opponent's class. You can't even be sure their outfit is the armor they are wearing since you can outfit heavy to look light, anyway. I find this to be an unpersuasive argument against.

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

(1) Lore-friendliness is an important part of ESO. Without that it's just another RPG. Even though they are trying very hard to destroy the lore now, what with pony imports from Noweyr and what not.
(2) I bet you someone will find a way to min-max their way into an exploit or unintended overtuned combination. If you care about meta, then absolutely not.
(3) They already try very hard to help you succeed no matter your power fantasy. Even if you chose the "wrong" build for a race, it's not unplayable. You won't be optimized, but if you care about roleplaying your character, that's not your top issue anyway.

1. Racials that, while thematic, are effectively just stat boosts don't make for very exciting or compelling racial differences at all. The point costing racials are what would become available to everyone and they'd simply be called "Adventurer Skills" to reflect your character's particular prowess. A Nord mage, trained well enough, could excel well beyond plenty of talented Altmer.
2. I find that unlikely since each tier features plenty of "side grade" stat choices. Players may be able to maximize certain builds, but they won't become overpowered just because they have a few more mix and match options. There may be a couple that become too optimal at the expense of other choices, but some balance tweaks would adjust that without issue.
3. Some people enjoy more than one aspect of an MMORPG. Some people like maximizing their potential and still roleplaying, or their roleplay as a character to reflect their RPG statistics and strengths/weaknesses. Intriguing concept, I know. While it may be true that every race offers something helpful to every build and class, expanding racials to become universal skills to mix and match as one sees fit would further expand build potential and give players a lot more choices to make, including the ability to make use of certain under utilized gear sets because they can compensate with their racials or min-max other gear sets to push their potential.

The only fundamental arguments I can think of as legitimate cons against this change are those arguing against racial homogenization, but when you consider the rest of the game's inherent design it certainly strikes me that player agency is more important than racial identity via passives and other systems. They've allowed any race into any alliance since day 1 and now you can adventure in opposing faction zones, nevermind that there is no class lock in this game. Might as well do away with an unnecessary and arbitrary racial restriction that was implemented purely because the SP games do it. PvP arguments are weak because race silhouettes looks the same and all races can be all classes so knowing an enemy's race is of minimal value. Lore/RP reasons are weak because if I'm a highly trained swordsman of comparable skill to Yokudan of legend then I am because I earned it, not because I was a Redguard. Passive stats that allow us to pick and choose meaningful options towards our desired build and playstyle would enhance roleplay because then I actively reflect that in actual gameplay rather than through /me.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings all,

After removing a few baiting and inappropriate posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive. Please see Community Rules here and thank you for your understanding.

newtinmpls

Deioth wrote: »

when you consider the rest of the game's inherent design it certainly strikes me that player agency is more important than racial identity via passives and other systems.

Player agency is the reason that MMORPGs exist at all, so I'm not seeing the relevance of this argument to TES gaming in particular.

Deioth wrote: »

They've allowed any race into any alliance since day 1 and now you can adventure in opposing faction zones, nevermind that there is no class lock in this game.

Not sure what you mean by "no class lock" - personally I find the whole concept of "classes" highly annoying and not in line with previous TES games. I would like to see all "skill lines" completely unlocked.

Deioth wrote: »

Might as well do away with an unnecessary and arbitrary racial restriction that was implemented purely because the SP games do it.

And to those of us who come to ESO via TES, it is absolutely necessary BECAUSE the single player versions do it. In a TES game, skills are open to all, and despite my dislike of "classes" there are plenty of open skill lines (and increasing, slowly).

Deioth wrote: »

Lore/RP reasons are weak .

Then go play something else. I am here to play "Morrowind with friends" (my hubby to play "Skyrim with friends" but sorta same thing).

We are here to celebrate, build on, or sometimes overcome our racials and that is part of the joy of it being a TES game. Lore is a vibrant and important part of the world, the play and the progress and the process. To me, the existance of a "class" system is annoying enough - for heaven's sake if you want to scrape off the "TES"ness of it, then make something else.

.

Helgarth

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I don't see how enacting the OPs idea would stop people who want to play a stereotype to do exactly that. And I don't see how allowing players who want to not play the stereotype would hurt someone else's game. Choice is a good thing and those who want to play Altmer mages would not really see any change.

My wood elf has played both archers and mages since 2007 (Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO). ESO is more unfriendly to her as a mage than either of its predecessors.

I'd be fine if I could play a tiny Altmer, make her look like a Bosmer and pretend she's a Bosmer. But the game won't allow me to do that either (no tiny Altmer).

This. The suggestion is not limiting anybody. I don't get why people would not be happy with it! 😅

Helgarth

newtinmpls wrote: »

Deioth wrote: »

when you consider the rest of the game's inherent design it certainly strikes me that player agency is more important than racial identity via passives and other systems.

Player agency is the reason that MMORPGs exist at all, so I'm not seeing the relevance of this argument to TES gaming in particular.

Deioth wrote: »

They've allowed any race into any alliance since day 1 and now you can adventure in opposing faction zones, nevermind that there is no class lock in this game.

Not sure what you mean by "no class lock" - personally I find the whole concept of "classes" highly annoying and not in line with previous TES games. I would like to see all "skill lines" completely unlocked.

Deioth wrote: »

Might as well do away with an unnecessary and arbitrary racial restriction that was implemented purely because the SP games do it.

And to those of us who come to ESO via TES, it is absolutely necessary BECAUSE the single player versions do it. In a TES game, skills are open to all, and despite my dislike of "classes" there are plenty of open skill lines (and increasing, slowly).

Deioth wrote: »

Lore/RP reasons are weak .

Then go play something else. I am her to play "Morrowind with friends" (my hubby to play "Skyrim with friends" but sorta same thing).

We are here to celebrate, build on, or sometimes overcome our racials and that is part of the joy of it being a TES game. Lore is a vibrant and important part of the world, the play and the progress and the process.

The game is built to work first then the story is on top of it...

This is a MMO before being a TES, along with the pros and cons inherent to an MMO. This is way more than TES with friends since you have raids for example and to be honest I think your vision is more on the not natural side of the game than his.

newtinmpls

Helgarth wrote: »

The suggestion is not limiting anybody. I don't get why people would not be happy with it! 😅

Well, speaking for me, it's because it's not limiting "appropriately" that it's disliked.

I like the TES universe; if people started adding Harry Potter style images and magic, I would not like it - not because I dislike HP, but because I come "here" for Elder Scrolls stuff.

I think that ZoS initially thought that it would be "an MMORPG" with mostly PvP and a veneer of TES, but many of the folks who came in droves came *because* of TES. Many of the changes (housing and pets and so on) were requested out of love of the feel of the game and the headcannon and addons of many of the lovers of TES.

Not saying that those are the only fans/players, but it's a big chunk, and many of them are paying for various crown items which reflect and expand on lore and racial identity (look at how many costumes have a racial/cultural aspect).

Helgarth

newtinmpls wrote: »

Helgarth wrote: »

The suggestion is not limiting anybody. I don't get why people would not be happy with it! 😅

Well, speaking for me, it's because it's not limiting "appropriately" that it's disliked.

I like the TES universe; if people started adding Harry Potter style images and magic, I would not like it - not because I dislike HP, but because I come "here" for Elder Scrolls stuff.

I think that ZoS initially thought that it would be "an MMORPG" with mostly PvP and a veneer of TES, but many of the folks who came in droves came *because* of TES. Many of the changes (housing and pets and so on) were requested out of love of the feel of the game and the headcannon and addons of many of the lovers of TES.

Not saying that those are the only fans/players, but it's a big chunk, and many of them are paying for various crown items which reflect and expand on lore and racial identity (look at how many costumes have a racial/cultural aspect).

Oh well, I totally agree with you even tho I strongly think that the MMO aspect should be prevalent on the TES aspect.

What I still don't get is what would it change for that kind of people? You still could get the lore compliant passives with the right races, while min/maxers would be happy playing their aesthetically pleasant race with the best passives for their style.

I mean, I don't think it would be immersion breaking since in TES, you see some characters doing different things that their races are preconizing, you can think of the players as the same since race passives are numbers you won't see sticked to a player. But maybe I don't have a good knowledge enough of the lore tho. 😅😁

I still believe that it's a solution that would contentate almost everybody.

But I guess it's personal, I just don't get why it would be detrimental to some. Even tho I doubt it could be implemented anytime soon since lot of things are more urgent and prevalent 😁

But I like your way to answer, you sir! Just a little thank you for answering insightfully unlike lot of people here and considering other's opinions! 😉

Sorry if I make some mistakes, English is not my native lang. 😅

paganslyer

This will be a great update

if we can just pick the way that the race work....its allow for a diverse and interesting character creation experience.
if we can pick an orc and choose the max stam + to become max mag...and the weapon damage + to become spell damage....so we got an mage with fast sprint and weapon attack +.
its can be interesting .....i think Diverse character creation options is very important and fun in MMORPG.
im also think The uniqueness of the races will remain...

SydneyGrey

I was happy when they made it so Dark Elves and Khajiits could be either stamina or magicka. I'd love if more races were like this, actually.

idk

Deioth wrote: »

Everyone has their aesthetic choices, but PvP (and to a lesser extent PvE) requires smart builds and with the way this game's design works out you're gimping yourself playing a magicka orc, for example, or a stamina argonian.

The choice of racial passives are part of those smart builds.

TES games have always had a flavor with the choice of race. ESO is no different. With the recent changes to racial passives, most of them are not as significant as they once were. People can always choose their race for appearance or functionality. That is a choice.

BTW, There was a point Zos considered uncoupling the passives from the race. The original idea for offering the ability changing race was to merely change the appearance and keep the passive you already had. They decided against that and to keep the passives tied to the choice or race. It does seem this is somewhat set in stone now.

katorga

None of this will work. Regardless, one thing is always best, even if by a tiny margin.

Select bonuses? Then one combo will be top and that is all anyone will use.

Some races are over tuned, but the way things are today, you can still micro-adjust using a non-meta race.

Cirantille

The difference is really small.

I respecced my characters to stam and mag, tried this.

Nord magdk
Bosmer magden/healer
Altmer stamina sorcerer

They all worked out great

I also had 3 sorcerers
Altmer, Dunmer and Breton, just to see what the fuss was about.
The difference is not more than a few k dps in best cases

I understand, at first it seems like a big deal. I was thinking about these stuff before starting, because people make it sound like a big deal when you read topics and posts.

Truth is it only matters when you want the leaderboards in PvE.
In PvP is all about farm and leech. You will make it to leaderboards ez.

So you will definitely not be gimped by playing the way you want, enjoy!

Deioth

newtinmpls wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "no class lock" - personally I find the whole concept of "classes" highly annoying and not in line with previous TES games. I would like to see all "skill lines" completely unlocked.

As in, certain classes are locked to certain races (or even genders) as has been the case in countless MMORPGs. And changing ESO to be classless would require an upheaval to balance and current systems and its core design since pre-alpha that they''re better off making another game. I'd have preferred they avoided traditional MMO trappings as well.

At least with the way things are now, simply making racials into "Adventurer" skills where to pick and choose from each tier would lean for more into a sense of roleplay than the current system does. You're a Breton with martial prowess? Take non-Magicka/light armor passives. Now instead of "useless" passives they reflect your character's skills and training. A far better implementation given the game's design as an MMORPG with classes and builds compared to how in the single player games you'd be able to max everything with anyone and races were more aesthetic than build based.

Cirantille wrote: »

*snip*

So, it'd be a good idea to do it this way as I proposed, anyway. You roleplay the character you want as the race you want. Magicka Altmer? Take LA/Magicka passives. Tank Altmer? Take HA/Health passives. Done. Your Altmer's passives match his skill as a person rather than arbitrary race bonuses.

BXR_Lonestar

Deioth wrote: »

Everyone has their aesthetic choices, but PvP (and to a lesser extent PvE) requires smart builds and with the way this game's design works out you're gimping yourself playing a magicka orc, for example, or a stamina argonian. The free racial seems to be the thematic racial while the rest push you towards certain builds for certain races. I like playing Argonian, but I'm gimped with a stamina build compared to Orc or Khajiit for example. Basically, I think that the three other racials should be freely chosen from among all race's racials of that "tier", so to explain Orc's "Brawny" and Breton's "Gift of Magnus" would share the same racial pool since that's the first racial tier. They would be renamed Adventurer Skills to fit with the change and improve clarity that you're picking these bonuses as a character. Resetting your skills would allow you to pick different Adventurer Skills.

This would not only allow players to choose races entirely aesthetically, a powerful tool for such a roleplay friendly game, but would make for a compelling new layer of depth in creating builds. Since every race can play every class and learn every skill line, and given the impact of the racial pass making racials that much more useful, a normalization pass so we can pick the racials we want would be a wonderful QOL feature.

Put me down as a "no" to normalized races. Like it or not, the Elder Scrolls is an extended universe and they've always come with their own set of racial passive and active skills. We can debate on what those skills should be in the context of ESO, but to throw them to the side entirely wouldn't make sense in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

So IMO, keep racials and passives tied to specific races. But I think it is entirely fair to debate what each race's passives should be. IMO, Woodelf is a big outlier for me. They get extra penetration on roll dodge and have no stealth passive. Really? Why not give them extra armor penetration when using a bow? There's a lore friendly (and actually useful) racial passive.

Opalblade

If they aren't going to make all the racial passives lore-friendly, they may as well let us pick them.

Drammanoth

Equality is BS. If one wants ALL races to have THE SAME racial traits, sooo... where's the variety? We choose a given race more on the basis of the traits they have (gameplay), and we know why they have them (lore).

Also, I do realise there are some average Joes who just play ESO to waste away their life. No RP, no fun - just wasting time "getting achievements" (because they haven't acheived much in real life).

My TOTALLY BLIND guess is that people got accustomed to being able to be just about any race and class by WoW. Yes, there were some limitations - mind you, *some* is the keyword here - but in general a Human, just like an Orc could have been a proficient rogue, mage, warlock, warrior etc. In latter expansions it got even more convoluted, as some races were allowed to be what they were not originally. In ESO you can be whichever race and class you want and succeed (or fail) on the basis of your choices.

Stx

I dont think they should ever do away with racial bonuses. There is no point in letting you choose them, that's what gear and mundus stones are for.

If anything, they could reduce their overall effectiveness, like instead of 2k stamina 258 weapon damage for an orc, it could be 1080 stamina and 129 weapon damage, or even 700 stam/ 80 damage.

The different races have always been born with natural traits... this game does NOT need homogenization.

If you want to play an orc wizard, or a high elf warrior, you can do that, and be VERY effective... just not quite AS effective as a high elf mage or an orc warrior, because evolution has shaped those races that way.

Honestly, the bottom line is, if you care about min/maxing then pick your race for the stats. If you care about your characters race for RP reasons, then forget about min/maxing and just have fun.