PvP is Broken

phairdon

Templars are fine. Just because some players cannot kill them with a couple of bashes, does not make them over powered. Any class can look overpowered in the hands of a good player.

Jabbs_Giggity

Kartalin wrote: »

I've added my responses in bold:

NaomiHutt wrote: »

I don't care if people try and rip me apart for saying this, but whilst Templar's are the way they are currently in PvP the game just feels very broken. (Mag Templar in particular are just over preforming in so many ways).

Classes like the Dragon Knight just don't stand any chance of killing them if the person even has quarter of a brain, because all they have to do is purge and heal up, nullifying any dots that they just had put on them.

Ritual (4762 magicka) and Rushed Ceremony (4498 magicka) are among our most expensive abilities, with Ritual continually having it's cost increased and Rushed Ceremony repeatedly nerfed. Any MagDk worth their salt will have more than 5 effects on you at once so you have to use Ritual twice if you want to clear them all.

They have multiple stuns.

True, but after we CC you once there's a cooldown after you break free so it doesn't matter if we have 1 or 10.

They heal whist they are attacking.

True, but the size of this heal is easily outpaced by basically every HoT in the game, particularly Resolving vigor and rapid regen.

They have the most powerful burst heal in the game.

You've forgotten about magsorcs (twilight matriarch)

They have amazing burst damage potential.

I guess? I think it's more of a consistent pressure than pure burst.

They snare anyone that gets close to them.

Going away in the next update

They can purge 2 things at once whilst healing and damaging the enemy.

The other morph is way better, fighting 2+ enemies always results in having at least 6 negative effects on you so the vast majority of templars run Extended ritual instead of Retribution

They have a long range access to major defile.

Have you seen how slow that thing moves, and the cast time? Completely telegraphed in a 1v1. Useful against potatoes and people engaged in fighting others I guess.

They have a long range execute.

So do magsorcs and magblades, and theirs is not a channel making it even more effective than magplars.

They have access to off balance and knock back.

Spear is knock down not knock back, I can't knock people off oil ledges any more Off balance is getting a cool down next update which nerfs it pretty heavily. While a few other classes get access to it also I'd say magplars have the first or second best version (stamden chicken throwers). But this is part of class diversity, where other classes have access to things like major brutality and sorcery where templars don't (class abilities only).

They have constant access to minor mending.

If by constant access you mean by maintaining uptime on particular skills, yes. By this logic DKs have constant access to major mending.

They have major maim and major protection.

Both from class ultimates. Other classes get different buffs/debuffs from their ultimates which is part of what makes them unique.

They have reduced cost off all of their skills (including their ultimate)

Same as sorcs

They do extra damage to enemies that block.

This occurs when we have a skill from one skill line in particular slotted. Other classes have unique variations when slotting/using abilities from certain skill lines. Is 10% extra damage to a blocking target all that much when blocking (especially with sword and shield or ice staff equipped) is higher than normal mitigation?

They have built in minor protection whilst attacking.

Just from one class skill line is this true. Wardens can get minor protection for much longer from one skill by using Ice Fortress which is also their armor buff. All classes can get passive minor protection just by slotting psijic ultimate. Other classes get different buffs for doing different things. Balance doesn't mean having exactly the same tool kit, otherwise there'd be no need for any classes.

They even have the shadow mundus stone as part of their passives.

By this logic Nightblades get the thief and shadow mundus when attacking from stealth while using Assassination skills. Again, each class gets different buffs from passives.

Not to forget if they happen to play as a high elf, they get 5% reduction to all damage whilst they are channeling an ability (which let's face it they do it a lot)

Or if we play as nords then we get 3960 additional armor which is about 6% mitigation. Each class can be any race, so I think that's mostly separate from a class balance discussion. I do agree that there is synergy with certain magplar builds in being a high elf. Just like healers of any class have synergy with being an argonian. My magplar is breton fwiw.

This is not a nurf thread (but maybe a thread to open people's eyes to how broken things are)

I think a lot of the issues that people have with class X is that they've only played class Y and never tried class X. Each class has their strengths and excels more in certain types of builds versus others. I agree Templars are in a solid place right now but not nearly as strong as when we had the DoT meta. Isn't it better to make suggestions as to how we can bring classes like nightblade up rather than pushing the others down?

Best response, that I have read through thus far. I was going to do a write-up too, but you nailed it. Also, to add, Mag Javelin still has knock back, Stam has knock down. Also, Off-Balance rarely is taken advantage of (In regard to CP passive) on Magplar due to the changes in Sweeps/Jabs, unless you have some DoTs on your bar; no reason to waste CP into Thaum to get the 75 CP cost passive...

I saw a response from OP saying he/she doesn't play DK in response to another user stating it. Curious what class the OP mains that's having an issue with Templars on - I see mostly NB players posting nerf threads against Templars...Smh...However, NB is not in the best spot currently and could use some love.

PVP has a huge learning curve, and newer players (and/or Casuals) still don't understand the concept of this...It's not like PVE where everything is preset and you can practice for it by memorizing the mechanics. PVP takes time to make mistakes and learn by both playing for a long time and playing the other classes to understand the fundamentals that make each class different. Without a base understanding for each class, you cannot learn how to counter.

Yes, ZOS has broken many aspects of ESO and no, that will not change. They really just aren't very great at creating content that is fast-paced and somewhat balanced. However, most of these broken things are either bugs or purposefully coded designs to sell new content (an example is Necro Ults and self synergies, making the new class somewhat OP to sell content behind their paywall concepts).

Current scorecard for PVP (regarding terms of DPS/Tankability/Sustain in a solo-small group context), IMO:
1. Stamcro
2. StamDK
3. Magsorc
4. Magplar
5. Stamplar (Interchangeable with Stamden, based on skill)
6. Stamden (Interchangeable with Stamplar, based on skill)
7. Magcro
7. Stamsorc
8. Magdk
9. Stamblade
10. Magblade

For those wonder, I main a Stamplar. I spend equal amount of time these days on StamDK, Magplar or StamNB. I also play MagDK and Stamden. I shelved my Magsorc because it's boring to me and refuse to purchase Necro.

NupidStoob

Since people keep saying DK is a dot class which stamdk this patch even relies on dots? It's all about dizzying swing and onslaught while dots are just supportive. Noxious breath for major fracture and poison injection if they run master's bow as well as maybe double dot poisons for some pressure and stamina return. Pretty much all the 1vX stamina frontbars except for stamplar look the same and dots aren't required to kill anyone:

Dizzy - Executioner - Camo Hunter - Forward Momentum/Rally - Sub Assault/Noxious Breath/Bound Armaments/Relentless Focus/Blastbones - Onslaught


I agree that magPlar is certainly strong, but it also has some clear weaknesses. MagPlar always struggled with going on the offensive when pressured and that hasn't changed at all. The change to mistform that you can't cancel it anymore to keep major expedition outside of it seriously hurt the already bad mobility of the class as well. i've seen quite a few people run ironblood since there is no way to escape on magplar anyways so might as well just be super tanky and hope not too many enemies swarm you.

sproattt

Stamblade needs love but Mag even more so.

Nightblade can crush any class in PvP, all depends on the player and opponents. In an X situation you're most likely dead fighting 2+ competent players, spamming roots n stuns n snares to slow your burst endlessly is what grinds my gears.

You're class has a cast/travel time associated with your offensive abilties, no other class has cast times. ZoS put us here, until our offensive abilties have either no cast or reduced cast/travel times we are going to be underwhelming and. Other classes have better burst potential and more survivability.

Solaire

Oh, boy, enough with these childish nerf threads.

NaomiHutt

Solaire wrote: »

Oh, boy, enough with these childish nerf threads.

I already stated it's not a nerf thread, if anything that's a bit of a childish comment.

Na0cho

Don’t worry. They are adding a new monster set that will give them a shield now as they jab for damage/healing.

Oh and mana back from blocking too....

Mr_Walker

Eric_Prince wrote: »

Wow! I guess I need to try Templar...

Yes, do. Join the other 80% of cyrodiil.

Juhasow

Kartalin wrote: »

I've added my responses in bold:

NaomiHutt wrote: »

I don't care if people try and rip me apart for saying this, but whilst Templar's are the way they are currently in PvP the game just feels very broken. (Mag Templar in particular are just over preforming in so many ways).

Classes like the Dragon Knight just don't stand any chance of killing them if the person even has quarter of a brain, because all they have to do is purge and heal up, nullifying any dots that they just had put on them.

Ritual (4762 magicka) and Rushed Ceremony (4498 magicka) are among our most expensive abilities, with Ritual continually having it's cost increased and Rushed Ceremony repeatedly nerfed. Any MagDk worth their salt will have more than 5 effects on you at once so you have to use Ritual twice if you want to clear them all.

They have multiple stuns.

True, but after we CC you once there's a cooldown after you break free so it doesn't matter if we have 1 or 10.

They heal whist they are attacking.

True, but the size of this heal is easily outpaced by basically every HoT in the game, particularly Resolving vigor and rapid regen.

They have the most powerful burst heal in the game.

You've forgotten about magsorcs (twilight matriarch)

They have amazing burst damage potential.

I guess? I think it's more of a consistent pressure than pure burst.

They snare anyone that gets close to them.

Going away in the next update

They can purge 2 things at once whilst healing and damaging the enemy.

The other morph is way better, fighting 2+ enemies always results in having at least 6 negative effects on you so the vast majority of templars run Extended ritual instead of Retribution

They have a long range access to major defile.

Have you seen how slow that thing moves, and the cast time? Completely telegraphed in a 1v1. Useful against potatoes and people engaged in fighting others I guess.

They have a long range execute.

So do magsorcs and magblades, and theirs is not a channel making it even more effective than magplars.

They have access to off balance and knock back.

Spear is knock down not knock back, I can't knock people off oil ledges any more Off balance is getting a cool down next update which nerfs it pretty heavily. While a few other classes get access to it also I'd say magplars have the first or second best version (stamden chicken throwers). But this is part of class diversity, where other classes have access to things like major brutality and sorcery where templars don't (class abilities only).

They have constant access to minor mending.

If by constant access you mean by maintaining uptime on particular skills, yes. By this logic DKs have constant access to major mending.

They have major maim and major protection.

Both from class ultimates. Other classes get different buffs/debuffs from their ultimates which is part of what makes them unique.

They have reduced cost off all of their skills (including their ultimate)

Same as sorcs

They do extra damage to enemies that block.

This occurs when we have a skill from one skill line in particular slotted. Other classes have unique variations when slotting/using abilities from certain skill lines. Is 10% extra damage to a blocking target all that much when blocking (especially with sword and shield or ice staff equipped) is higher than normal mitigation?

They have built in minor protection whilst attacking.

Just from one class skill line is this true. Wardens can get minor protection for much longer from one skill by using Ice Fortress which is also their armor buff. All classes can get passive minor protection just by slotting psijic ultimate. Other classes get different buffs for doing different things. Balance doesn't mean having exactly the same tool kit, otherwise there'd be no need for any classes.

They even have the shadow mundus stone as part of their passives.

By this logic Nightblades get the thief and shadow mundus when attacking from stealth while using Assassination skills. Again, each class gets different buffs from passives.

Not to forget if they happen to play as a high elf, they get 5% reduction to all damage whilst they are channeling an ability (which let's face it they do it a lot)

Or if we play as nords then we get 3960 additional armor which is about 6% mitigation. Each class can be any race, so I think that's mostly separate from a class balance discussion. I do agree that there is synergy with certain magplar builds in being a high elf. Just like healers of any class have synergy with being an argonian. My magplar is breton fwiw.

This is not a nurf thread (but maybe a thread to open people's eyes to how broken things are)

I think a lot of the issues that people have with class X is that they've only played class Y and never tried class X. Each class has their strengths and excels more in certain types of builds versus others. I agree Templars are in a solid place right now but not nearly as strong as when we had the DoT meta. Isn't it better to make suggestions as to how we can bring classes like nightblade up rather than pushing the others down?

It's funny that to justify features of magplar You need to compare it to all the other classes together. That pretty much shows what we're dealing with right now.

Also lot of the points You've made is simply flawed.

Juhasow

phairdon wrote: »

Templars are fine. Just because some players cannot kill them with a couple of bashes, does not make them over powered. Any class can look overpowered in the hands of a good player.

Problem is it looks overpowered even in hands of bad players. Which there is a lot playing on magplar atm. Good players are just taking it to the extreme.

BaiterOfZergs

Magdk and magplar hard counter each other, it really comes down to the better player and better setup. It’s always been that way between them.

NaomiHutt

phairdon wrote: »

Templars are fine. Just because some players cannot kill them with a couple of bashes, does not make them over powered. Any class can look overpowered in the hands of a good player.

Haha don't make me laugh, any newbie can do great with a Templar.

Let's be honest here, the people that think they are not over preforming compared to other classes are likely Templar mains.

Bam_Bam

phairdon wrote: »

Templars are fine. Just because some players cannot kill them with a couple of bashes, does not make them over powered. Any class can look overpowered in the hands of a good player.

Agreed.

Maybe the REAL issue is that the other classes are simply under-powered.

JonnytheKing

mmmm i mean this in the nicest way , but if your a dk that cant kill a normal temp, our doing it wrong , maybe think about what your doing wrong befor saying pvp is broken , i find poeple are why to quick to blame the game on sted of they own skill lv ,

NaomiHutt

JonnytheKing wrote: »

mmmm i mean this in the nicest way , but if your a dk that cant kill a normal temp, our doing it wrong , maybe think about what your doing wrong befor saying pvp is broken , i find poeple are why to quick to blame the game on sted of they own skill lv ,

I already stated I'm not a DK, I just used them as an example.

All classes find it hard to kill them in a 1 v 1 situation because of their shear survivability.

I'm not saying I or others can't kill them I'm just stated that they are over performing in their current state.

They have amazing heals and great DPS at the same time.

sproattt

Class balance right now is the biggest disparity it's ever been in ESO and the fact people defend this "balance" are so out of touch from the classes that are under performing aka both variants of Nightblade.

Now I'm not calling for nerfs but, buffs to us.

Buff NB, buff DK class dots(buffing then over nerfing them leaving them downright useless, I KNOW FOR A FACT NO ONE TESTED DOTS BEFORE THE OVERBUFF THEN OVERNERF. NO ONE.

Solaire

NaomiHutt wrote: »

Solaire wrote: »

Oh, boy, enough with these childish nerf threads.

I already stated it's not a nerf thread, if anything that's a bit of a childish comment.

Yea totally not a Nerf Thread.

Ragnarock41

Heimpai wrote: »

Cirantille wrote: »

Heimpai wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

NaomiHutt wrote: »

I don't care if people try and rip me apart for saying this, but whilst Templar's are the way they are currently in PvP the game just feels very broken. (Mag Templar in particular are just over preforming in so many ways).

Classes like the Dragon Knight just don't stand any chance of killing them if the person even has quarter of a brain, because all they have to do is purge and heal up, nullifying any dots that they just had put on them.

They have multiple stuns.
They heal whist they are attacking.
They have the most powerful burst heal in the game.
They have amazing burst damage potential.
They snare anyone that gets close to them.
They can purge 2 things at once whilst healing and damaging the enemy.
They have a long range access to major defile.
They have a long range execute.
They have access to off balance and knock back.
They have constant access to minor mending.
They have major maim and major protection.
They have reduced cost off all of their skills (including their ultimate)
They do extra damage to enemies that block.
They have built in minor protection whilst attacking.
They even have the shadow mundus stone as part of their passives.

Not to forget if they happen to play as a high elf, they get 5% reduction to all damage whilst they are channeling an ability (which let's face it they do it a lot)

This is not a nurf thread (but maybe a thread to open people's eyes to how broken things are)

Templars, stamcros, and wardens are all broken af atm. Nur if you say anything the over powered defense force will come out and insult you.

Magsorc is as well

If after 6 years of nerfing you still can not beat mag sorcs, problem is you

Lmao I have no issues with any class listed, just stating it's on par with them..unless you don't know how to play one?

We don't use logic and reasoning in here, if you dare to say sorcs are anything but underpowered as hell you will get criticized and ridiculed.

Skullderic

Templar & DKs both working overtime. Has alot to do w/ Lagg & "CC immunity" (Totaly Broken).
When you get Immo & Snared, Brake free & Dodgeroll just to get Immo & Snared .5 sec later, you burn your Stam pool so fast.

MCBIZZLE300

I don't rly enjoy using a templar but i have one, I dont think they are OP though. You just have to know their weaknesses. Having said that, holding block while spamming Honor of the dead needs to be looked at. Block in general is a bit too strong IMO. Personally I find a good stamplar is more of a challenge than a magplar.

Raudgrani

I ran one Battlegrounds match with a Stamplar during the event, just to get the "Star-made Knight" title on him. Ended up with 23-0-10 score for me, and it was one of these "bad matches", where out team lacked one player almost the entire time.
Some may say "Höa höa höa, that's a BAAD score, you noobz!". Well, only time I've had better numbers, was in werewolf form with same Templar, when ww was still actually playable.

I could have killed twice that amount, if it wasn't for the fact that we had to chase the opposing teams around the place. Templars sure are performing very well now. If there's one thing that could be done to bring them down a bit, it would be to look at the cleanse thing. You can successfully apply like 5 different dots, to no avail whatsoever - you are almost better off not doing it, and trying to get some burst in instead. BUT then, they are really tanky too so good luck with that in most cases.
I have zero problem with magicka for almost overusing cleanse, as a Nord Stamplar. I think that might be part of the problem.

EDIT: I don't call for "nerf hammer", maybe something should be done - over all - to cleansing DOT's, not just for Templars. If anything is done, I hope it's a reasonable and a gradual adjustment. Not some overnight complete change. We have seen enough of that.

NaomiHutt

Solaire wrote: »

NaomiHutt wrote: »

Solaire wrote: »

Oh, boy, enough with these childish nerf threads.

I already stated it's not a nerf thread, if anything that's a bit of a childish comment.

Yea totally not a Nerf Thread.

Hey if you want to think of it as a nerf thread that's up to you not me.

I already clearly stated it wasn't.

I was clearly just pointing out the facts that Templar's are over performing compared to the other classes.

In stead of automatically thinking negative and seeing everything as a cry for a nerf how about you could see it as I'm asking for Zos to give all other classes more utilities so that they can complete at a fair level.

Or is that to hard for you to understand?

StormeReigns

NaomiHutt wrote: »

Solaire wrote: »

NaomiHutt wrote: »

Solaire wrote: »

Oh, boy, enough with these childish nerf threads.

I already stated it's not a nerf thread, if anything that's a bit of a childish comment.

Yea totally not a Nerf Thread.

Hey if you want to think of it as a nerf thread that's up to you not me.

I already clearly stated it wasn't.

I was clearly just pointing out the facts that Templar's are over performing compared to the other classes.

In stead of automatically thinking negative and seeing everything as a cry for a nerf how about you could see it as I'm asking for Zos to give all other classes more utilities so that they can complete at a fair level.

Or is that to hard for you to understand?

Well, to be fair. It does read like your sub standard nerf thread, as well as many of your responses do as well.
If your looking to bring other builds and classes up to par, instead of starting off listing what said class is capable of in a negative light and retorting it back, over and over. Why not start off with suggestions to bring the other builds and classes up?

Juhasow

What is funny with magplar is that by solving 1 issue ZoS is just reinforcing another one. Right now passive snare from ritual is simply stupid so ZoS is changing it...into block mitigation bonus. So templar looses 1 strong feature which was braindead snare that was snaring everyone around 100% of a time and gets another feature which is spamming heals on block , buffed.
It's a nerf to stamplar and status quo for magplar.

Karmanorway

Buff stamsorc, nerf everything else ☺️👍

npuk

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Without a base understanding for each class, you cannot learn how to counter.

Absolutely, the best way to learn how to beat a class is to play that class and see what kills you.

NaomiHutt

Oh and I forgot to add most of their offensive skills can't even be dodged, making one of the base game mechanics pointless.

JanTanhide

LOL!

Iskiab

Class balance is okay right now if you’re a Stamnecro, warden, DK or Sorc.

curtisnewton

Do you think that every class should in 1v1 with every class have 50% chance of winning?

Basically: do you think classes should be balanced? Why should that be the case?