Make PvP areas that PvE players have to pass by in order to continue doing PvE

Starlock

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Remove all the vestiges from Cyrodiil and let us all play the rank-and-file soldiers and I'd be all in for it. There'd be set templates of soldier classes with fixed abilities you'd rank up through playing them. It'd be way easier to balance, way easier on performance, and feel more like a real military campaign.

Sounds a lot like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Battlefront which was successful enough to have sequels.
And yeah, sharply reducing skill sets would make balancing a lot easier.

Yeah, I played the original of that back in the day. Good stuff. I haven't touched the remake due to the shenanigans at release though.

Honestly, I'm not that into competitive gaming stuff these days... but every so often I get that itch. And a solid, fantasy-based castle siege PvP wargame would be pretty darned sweet.

bmnoble

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

One of the reasons that PvE players might not be interested in doing PvP is that they don't find other players at their level that is easy for them to kill. By making PvP areas that other PvE players are there they can find other players at their level. If you make PvP areas that other PvE players have to pass by in order to continue doing PvE you can achieve this.

Question once your through the PVP zone and enter the PVE zone does that zone have Wayshrines? If it does after a few days people will just port into the PVE zone and completely ignore the PVP area on the way and your new area will be dead.

As for PVP players not being able to find players that are there level that they can kill, what happens when all the high level PVP players turn up to farm all these low level PVP players? The low level PVP players then leave, defeating the whole point.


Forcing PVP onto PVE players is one of the quickest ways to get PVE players to ignore an area.



Best compromise I can think of is create a new zone the same size as the beginner islands, that only low level PVP players can use to fight among themselves in a small area, no Alliance restrictions, no grouping just purely solo.

If its popular add a CP version, problem of course is those zones will fill up fast and will result in queue's just like the campaigns we have now.

Maybe if there is No AP rewards and just pure PVP they could offset the overpopulation of the zones somewhat.

ArzyeL

That is a terrible idea, it will simpy not work

Na0cho

OP’s suggestion wouldn’t work.

Here’s some things they should do though:

Make all pvp gear bop so pve players cannot buy them. Just as we cannot buy dungeon sets/monster sets.

Remove all pve from cyrodil. You want rewards from mm then you should have to pvp.

Just like if I want the rewards from ANY OTHER event I am forced to pve.

MercilessnVexed

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Forcibly funneling players through the most technically deficient and socially caustic part of the game is a poor customer retention strategy for a title heavily focused on pve questing.

We're asking to have people try pvp. You dont have to remind us of how end game PVE players act.

Eh, I've done pvp. I'm not ever going there again. Not fun. Those who think it might be fun, fine - go for it. The premise of the OP in this thread though.... well, that would be a reason I would never give this game any real money again. And I do spend more than my fair share over a year.

It wouldn't be everything else wrong with the game?

Here's yet another person who isn't listening. WE. DON'T. LIKE. TO. PVP. Don't like it. Not gonna LEARN to like it. I don't have any problem with the rest of the game.

Look, the fact is, I want nothing to do with PVP. You're the one refusing to get the message, capiche?

Dusk_Coven

Na0cho wrote: »

Make all pvp gear bop so pve players cannot buy them.

Maybe they could also make PvP gear more relevant so there isn't so much of a reliance on PvE sources. Or even duplicate certain sets into PvP sources so there needn't be so much crossover.

Desperately wanting any particular set, though -- that's a problem players created themselves by wanting to always follow meta. Apparently not a problem ZOS cares about so much as they seem happy enough with the PvP sets they provided.

jainiadral

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I find it interesting that there have been so many threads in the last month or so promoting "open world pvp". What's the deal here?

Just a guess: Amazon decided to get rid of full unrestricted PvP in its forthcoming game, New World. The stated reasoning from the devs includes lots of the standard stuff you see getting cited here: ganking and griefing lowbies, ganking questers, toxicity, etc. Apparently Amazon likes money more than satisfying a hardcore minority

So all the disappointed hardcore PvPeeps are trying to get more of what they want out of existing larger MMOs. Can't say I blame them-- from everything I've read, existing indie PvP survival gankboxes aren't exactly fun.

jainiadral

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

One of the reasons that PvE players might not be interested in doing PvP is that they don't find other players at their level that is easy for them to kill. By making PvP areas that other PvE players are there they can find other players at their level. If you make PvP areas that other PvE players have to pass by in order to continue doing PvE you can achieve this.

How about we be honest and come out with it. You want to gank easy targets. Thats all this is.

In the pecking order of PvP you are 3 levels below the green PvPer newbie that refuses to learn how things work.

Yup I think this sums it up.

OP sounds like the people in SWTOR who hang out in otherwise completely dead open PvP instances waiting hours just for a PvE person to use the PvP instance for their questing (because those instances are so otherwise completely devoid of anyone, PvP or otherwise). Then they emerge from stealth and gank that person.

All the while safely away from real PvP competition. They could have used their time more productively queuing for PvP content. But no... Why? And SWTOR's open PvP instances are dead. Why?

SWTOR's zones are dead as a doornail. During the last few months, I've been doing most of my actual dailies in the PvP instance. Only once have I seen "PvP"-- during the Dantooine event on a low-level gunslinger. A level 75 with max gear and probably max iRating ROFL-stomped me when I was trying to gun down some trash mobs. Other than that, the PvP instance is a solo player's paradise. On Onderon, especially, Imps and Pubs actively skirt each other's AOEs and jet out of each other's sight as fast as possible. We're all just there to get things done

Dusk_Coven

jainiadral wrote: »

SWTOR's zones are dead as a doornail. During the last few months, I've been doing most of my actual dailies in the PvP instance. Only once have I seen "PvP"-- during the Dantooine event on a low-level gunslinger. A level 75 with max gear and probably max iRating ROFL-stomped me when I was trying to gun down some trash mobs. Other than that, the PvP instance is a solo player's paradise. On Onderon, especially, Imps and Pubs actively skirt each other's AOEs and jet out of each other's sight as fast as possible. We're all just there to get things done

That I think is one of the key differences in mentality between PvP and PvE.
PvE = get things done, be productive
PvP = stop others from getting things done

That PvP mentality has a proper place. Like alliance versus alliance in Cyrodiil. Everywhere else, you are basically being a jerk.

Sylvermynx

jainiadral wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I find it interesting that there have been so many threads in the last month or so promoting "open world pvp". What's the deal here?

Just a guess: Amazon decided to get rid of full unrestricted PvP in its forthcoming game, New World. The stated reasoning from the devs includes lots of the standard stuff you see getting cited here: ganking and griefing lowbies, ganking questers, toxicity, etc. Apparently Amazon likes money more than satisfying a hardcore minority

So all the disappointed hardcore PvPeeps are trying to get more of what they want out of existing larger MMOs. Can't say I blame them-- from everything I've read, existing indie PvP survival gankboxes aren't exactly fun.

Ugh. I wouldn't touch a game from amazon with a hundred foot pole. Well.... I don't think they're going to get what they want here. Maybe they should all go find a 100% pvp game and play that. Or if there aren't any, maybe they should decide they really do know better than the devs, and make one.

Pvpers in any game remind me of the Mongers in April White's Immortal Descendants series.

Mr_Walker

No thanks. When I'm PvEing, I like to do it in peace, not have to deal with some kid with delusions of adequacy.

Zulera301

today on "List of worst ideas ever suggested..."

and this is from someone who primarily makes PvP/BG builds, so it's not like I don't get in my share of PvPing now and again. but I like that they are separate and assert that they should remain separate.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Na0cho wrote: »

Make all pvp gear bop so pve players cannot buy them.

Maybe they could also make PvP gear more relevant so there isn't so much of a reliance on PvE sources. Or even duplicate certain sets into PvP sources so there needn't be so much crossover.

Desperately wanting any particular set, though -- that's a problem players created themselves by wanting to always follow meta. Apparently not a problem ZOS cares about so much as they seem happy enough with the PvP sets they provided.

This would be a really great idea, and it would cut down on the time PVPers have to pve for gear. The same would hold true for PVEers. And it makes sense. You can only get PVP sets in Cyrodiil and of course those sets would actually have to be useful in PvP. PVE and trial sets would be found in their respective areas and would be useful for that.

Rave the Histborn

Daimonion82 wrote: »

Well, PvPers have terrible reputation only because some of them hunts for PvErs for easy AP. You can't reason with this kind of PvPer - he will tell you: adapt, this is PvP area, so be good or get lost! While at the same time he ISN'T HERE FOR THE CHALLENGE! He isn't fighting other PvPer, instead only stalking people, who are here for shards.
Cyrodill and Imperial City suffer from bad design - if it's open PvP zone, why putting PvE missions there? What's the point in towns repeatable quests? Purely PvP repeatables aren't enough? So I completely disagree with OP - PvE content shoudn't be locked behind forced PvP, because it only creates hostility between PvErs and PvPers.
I think flagged PvP is best option. You play with people who wants to play with you. But I guess many of those "great PvPers" will be against it... No PvE noobs to gank... Meh... No fun...

It's weird that there's so many people that claim to never PVP and in the same breath claim to know what Cyrodiil is like and how PVPers act.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Forcibly funneling players through the most technically deficient and socially caustic part of the game is a poor customer retention strategy for a title heavily focused on pve questing.

We're asking to have people try pvp. You dont have to remind us of how end game PVE players act.

Eh, I've done pvp. I'm not ever going there again. Not fun. Those who think it might be fun, fine - go for it. The premise of the OP in this thread though.... well, that would be a reason I would never give this game any real money again. And I do spend more than my fair share over a year.

It wouldn't be everything else wrong with the game?

Here's yet another person who isn't listening. WE. DON'T. LIKE. TO. PVP. Don't like it. Not gonna LEARN to like it. I don't have any problem with the rest of the game.

Look, the fact is, I want nothing to do with PVP. You're the one refusing to get the message, capiche?

No, I am listening, I'm just waiting for something that's not a giant excuse. It's always the same (non)reasons "Oh I'll die, oh people could be mean, oh I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, oh I'd have to learn to dps." It's just wild to me to see this mentality in people. The same people that complain that "There's no intro to Cyrodiil, they should have a tutorial, they should do this, they should do that, how are we supposed to compete with players that have played for so long" and they just miss the irony of people having to same effort into PVE in the same exact areas of gameplay.

Trust me I listen and the reason it seems to fall on dead ears in your mind is exactly what you said. You dont like it and and you dont want to try it because you'd have to improve yourself.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Eeew

Sylvermynx

I don't "have to improve myself" since I'm playing the game as I want to play it. That's all it is. I'm having a great deal of fun, though I would no doubt have more fun if I had a really good connection (which I don't, and which I will likely not ever have - living in a town of less than 100 full time families is not conducive to getting "real" broadband....) so I could actually figure out combat.

That's not happening in my lifetime (real broadband I mean), so what I see is what I get. I can't get past the "mini bosses" in quest lines due to major ping (not to mention gimped reflexes for which my age can be blamed), I can't solo normal dungeons, and there are quite a few delves that are pretty impossible for me.

Regardless, I pay two subs and play every day for hours. And I do have fun. MY way.

Rave the Histborn

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't "have to improve myself" since I'm playing the game as I want to play it. That's all it is. I'm having a great deal of fun, though I would no doubt have more fun if I had a really good connection (which I don't, and which I will likely not ever have - living in a town of less than 100 full time families is not conducive to getting "real" broadband....) so I could actually figure out combat.

That's not happening in my lifetime (real broadband I mean), so what I see is what I get. I can't get past the "mini bosses" in quest lines due to major ping (not to mention gimped reflexes for which my age can be blamed), I can't solo normal dungeons, and there are quite a few delves that are pretty impossible for me.

Regardless, I pay two subs and play every day for hours. And I do have fun. MY way.

Stopped reading after the bold. Point made

Sevn

I keep seeing the same statement over and over so I have to ask, this game is at least 75% pve. Not tacked on, but fully voiced quests and all that jazz.

Why are you all playing a predominantly pve game and complaining about having to do pve stuff?

Especially if you're on pc, isn't there a ton of dedicated pvp only games? Is this the only pvp you all are good at? Why are you only good at eso's version of pvp?

Super laggy, constant nerfs, minimum attention paid to it by the devs but here you all remain? I just don't get it.

Cirantille

Sylvermynx

Nah, you made no point. You may think everyone who plays a game for fun should "want to improve". That's as silly as anyone saying that if you want to play a game you have to do a bajillion jumps through hoops to get to level 2.

Games are to have fun. Each person who plays a game approaches that game in a manner which appeals to that person. Some people are type A sorts, who have to attack a game as if it's going to be the end of them if they don't attain godhood or whatever. Other people are just looking for a good time, whether that's ERP in Riften (or privately) and I don't personally care which it is, nor do I have any interest in it myself - or whether it's puttering about harvesting, crafting or fishing.

I improve my mind by various strategies. But playing this game is just for fun. It's a relief from outside distractions, and personal situations.

YMMV of course.

spartaxoxo

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

LoveForElderScrolls wrote: »

One of the reasons that PvE players might not be interested in doing PvP is that they don't find other players at their level that is easy for them to kill. By making PvP areas that other PvE players are there they can find other players at their level. If you make PvP areas that other PvE players have to pass by in order to continue doing PvE you can achieve this.

You will find the majority of the PvE players would just stop going. The old argument that someone will like something it if they just try it has never worked and never will. Well it might work for a small minority. If players actually had an interest in PvP, or to keep things balanced, high level instanced content you wouldn't have to try and coerce them to try them out. Instead they would just do it on their own. Then there is the group that has tried it and wants nothing to do with it.

Your argument is invalid.

Because you don't like it? The reality is most PvE players want nothing to do with PvP and nothing you do will change that. Adding a forced PvP situation will only reinforce their beliefs. I'm sorry you don't like it but those are the facts whether you like them or not.

No, because you say it will never work then immediately contradict yourself by saying it might work. Realistically it would work more often than not.

Realistically, it wouldn't work well at all for the majority of people. And people just wouldnt do it. Which is why PvE servers with OPT-In only PvP are normalized throughout the industry, and why Imperial City has never been a popular zone for PvEers.

Forcing content on players doesn't do a lot to endear them to it. Offering incentives and letting them do it on their own does.

Akisohida

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Daimonion82 wrote: »

Well, PvPers have terrible reputation only because some of them hunts for PvErs for easy AP. You can't reason with this kind of PvPer - he will tell you: adapt, this is PvP area, so be good or get lost! While at the same time he ISN'T HERE FOR THE CHALLENGE! He isn't fighting other PvPer, instead only stalking people, who are here for shards.
Cyrodill and Imperial City suffer from bad design - if it's open PvP zone, why putting PvE missions there? What's the point in towns repeatable quests? Purely PvP repeatables aren't enough? So I completely disagree with OP - PvE content shoudn't be locked behind forced PvP, because it only creates hostility between PvErs and PvPers.
I think flagged PvP is best option. You play with people who wants to play with you. But I guess many of those "great PvPers" will be against it... No PvE noobs to gank... Meh... No fun...

It's weird that there's so many people that claim to never PVP and in the same breath claim to know what Cyrodiil is like and how PVPers act.

Beastygrowls wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Forcibly funneling players through the most technically deficient and socially caustic part of the game is a poor customer retention strategy for a title heavily focused on pve questing.

We're asking to have people try pvp. You dont have to remind us of how end game PVE players act.

Eh, I've done pvp. I'm not ever going there again. Not fun. Those who think it might be fun, fine - go for it. The premise of the OP in this thread though.... well, that would be a reason I would never give this game any real money again. And I do spend more than my fair share over a year.

It wouldn't be everything else wrong with the game?

Here's yet another person who isn't listening. WE. DON'T. LIKE. TO. PVP. Don't like it. Not gonna LEARN to like it. I don't have any problem with the rest of the game.

Look, the fact is, I want nothing to do with PVP. You're the one refusing to get the message, capiche?

No, I am listening, I'm just waiting for something that's not a giant excuse. It's always the same (non)reasons "Oh I'll die, oh people could be mean, oh I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, oh I'd have to learn to dps." It's just wild to me to see this mentality in people. The same people that complain that "There's no intro to Cyrodiil, they should have a tutorial, they should do this, they should do that, how are we supposed to compete with players that have played for so long" and they just miss the irony of people having to same effort into PVE in the same exact areas of gameplay.

Trust me I listen and the reason it seems to fall on dead ears in your mind is exactly what you said. You dont like it and and you dont want to try it because you'd have to improve yourself.

Rofl. You act like PvP is the only way to improve. Maybe it's because it's what you like and you're unable to understand that not everyone likes what you like. Maybe it angers you that people can dislike something you enjoy? Do you feel like it's an attack on you?

If this game forced PvP on everyone, I'd walk away. So would allot of players. And no, that does not mean we don't 'want to improve'.

It means we don't like PvP. We don't like ganksquads. We don't like griefers. We don't like having to build to a certain meta solely to ensure we don't get ROFLEstomped by some minmaxer who has spreadsheets of how much DPS/HPS you get out of every set of PvP gear.

We don't like the toxic mindset that seems to come with PvP. That same mindset you and the OP show with your comments about how people would just like it if they tried it! Or 'they clearly don't want to improve!'

You like PvP; fine. Go enjoy it. I don't have to enjoy it. I also don't have to play it. And if your enjoyment is somehow mitigated by the fact that it's not shoved down my throat, then you have a YOU problem. Stop hanging your enjoyment on complete strangers.

I'm tired of this 'You WILL enjoy what I enjoy!' mindset some people have. It's annoying and rather pitiful that you feel everyone has to play like you play, do what you do, and like what you like, or you get aggressive.

Rave the Histborn

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Nah, you made no point. You may think everyone who plays a game for fun should "want to improve". That's as silly as anyone saying that if you want to play a game you have to do a bajillion jumps through hoops to get to level 2.

Games are to have fun. Each person who plays a game approaches that game in a manner which appeals to that person. Some people are type A sorts, who have to attack a game as if it's going to be the end of them if they don't attain godhood or whatever. Other people are just looking for a good time, whether that's ERP in Riften (or privately) and I don't personally care which it is, nor do I have any interest in it myself - or whether it's puttering about harvesting, crafting or fishing.

I improve my mind by various strategies. But playing this game is just for fun. It's a relief from outside distractions, and personal situations.

YMMV of course.

Anyone that says they are "just doing it for fun" is lying.

"I dont have to self improve since" just changed to "I improve my mind by various strategies."

So which is it? Are you not improving yourself because "fun" or are you improving yourself because that's how human psychology works. You like something so you want to improve on it.

Smitch_59

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Nah, you made no point. You may think everyone who plays a game for fun should "want to improve". That's as silly as anyone saying that if you want to play a game you have to do a bajillion jumps through hoops to get to level 2.

Games are to have fun. Each person who plays a game approaches that game in a manner which appeals to that person. Some people are type A sorts, who have to attack a game as if it's going to be the end of them if they don't attain godhood or whatever. Other people are just looking for a good time, whether that's ERP in Riften (or privately) and I don't personally care which it is, nor do I have any interest in it myself - or whether it's puttering about harvesting, crafting or fishing.

I improve my mind by various strategies. But playing this game is just for fun. It's a relief from outside distractions, and personal situations.

YMMV of course.

Anyone that says they are "just doing it for fun" is lying.

"I dont have to self improve since" just changed to "I improve my mind by various strategies."

So which is it? Are you not improving yourself because "fun" or are you improving yourself because that's how human psychology works. You like something so you want to improve on it.

Wrong! I play ESO and I'm "just doing it for fun." And that's no lie!

Sylvermynx

@Rave the Histborn - I'm not at all sure why you seem so bent on insisting that I have some serious deficiencies as far as a game which I play for fun is concerned.

Strategies for improving my mind: reading hundreds of books a year; learning the new versions of CSS, HTML and PHP so I can keep up client websites as secure and viable entities; managing my household, finances, health, and keeping husband on track with his health; enjoying my family (well.... at least my daughter, SIL, and granddaughters); watching Shakespeare's plays on stage, as well as various contemporary plays; getting together with friends for food, fun and laughter....

We will have to agree to disagree. I hope you enjoy your road ahead; I will do my best to protect you on that road, as I enjoy my own road forward. I don't expect you to reciprocate.

BaiterOfZergs

Thread is interesting, seems many know that forcing pvp on pve player’s is a bad thing but at the same time can’t fathom why forcing pve on pvp players is also bad. It’s suddenly different. If one thing is blatantly obvious it’s how bias the eso community can be.

Sylvermynx

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Thread is interesting, seems many know that forcing pvp on pve player’s is a bad thing but at the same time can’t fathom why forcing pve on pvp players is also bad. It’s suddenly different. If one thing is blatantly obvious it’s how bias the eso community can be.

Oh, I have always thought that was equally bad. I've never had to deal with it from that side though, so perhaps I simply haven't a clue how bad it really is.

Dusk_Coven

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Thread is interesting, seems many know that forcing pvp on pve player’s is a bad thing but at the same time can’t fathom why forcing pve on pvp players is also bad. It’s suddenly different. If one thing is blatantly obvious it’s how bias the eso community can be.

Devs are doing you a favour with the PvE component. In Cyro it means you have something to do when other players aren't there to interact with you. Which is a lot of the time in Cyro (when an event isn't on). In IC it means you can get Tel Var.
How many times have you taken an objective guarded only by NPCs?

What's the alternative? Press a button and get loot? Or wait around until someone shows up? (you know, like looong BG queues?)

BaiterOfZergs

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Thread is interesting, seems many know that forcing pvp on pve player’s is a bad thing but at the same time can’t fathom why forcing pve on pvp players is also bad. It’s suddenly different. If one thing is blatantly obvious it’s how bias the eso community can be.

OK. Stop all your PvE in Cyrodiil. Just ignore those guards at the fort you're trying to take.

Nice strawman.

Sylvermynx

Uh.... I thought the post meant that pvp players have to pve in dungeons etc for gear?