Please give NB a viable defensive PvP alternative to cloak. Or give us our burst back.

olsborg

Decimus wrote: »

While I don't think NB is terrible atm...

Considering wardens are getting 10% critical damage for practically free in this update (you know, because they definitely needed more damage /s), I wonder if it'd be too much asked for Relentless to grant Minor Force (or Minor Berserk again).

Just getting one more skill slot on NB (by not having to run RAT or Camo Hunter for max damage) would help a lot I think.


They could also make cloak a lot more reliable/fun to play with if det pots didn't have such a ridiculous duration (15,7 seconds), which makes fighting groups using them a rather painful experience where you don't really have any offensive window or ability to engage out of stealth. For comparison, other actual abilities designed to counter cloak each last around 3-5 seconds (Camo Hunter, Radiant Magelight) and have significantly less range (6m with Camo, 12m with Radiant... 20m with det pots). And you can't even tell someone is using det pots (because there's no visual indicator)... until it's too late.

I believe det pots to still be the main reason NBs get zerged down & why so many dislike playing the class.

Minor berserk on focus would help abit. In the case of stamblade tho... id like to see medium armor getting a slight penetration bonus if wearing 5 pieces of it. *deadhorse*

Jeezye

Czekoludek wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

I don't think they will ever give a stealth class a burst heal cause that could be pretty broken with the ability to already reset the fight and adding a spammable burst heal I'm guessing you guys are imagining like the templar breath of life or pet heal on magsorc, they definitely could increase the heals they have though on hots though with the new dmg mitigation

Solution for that is pretty easy, give NB reliable burst heal for other morph of cloak. So you can have burst heal OR invisibility. Easy peasy

I have propagated this solution since summerset, but people that actually invest thoughts into issues are sadly not the ones receiving most attention in forums like this...

ApostateHobo

Magblade could definitely use some buffing. I love playing one, but a lot of the time it hits like a wet noodle unless I'm against another nightblade. Our heals could use a bit of love too. Just putting the minor vitality back on swallow soul would help a lot.

sproattt

Just ran NMA, spriggan, Bspwn, Mast Bow and Onslaught and it as terrible. Do not play it n think of the good old times as your worlds gonna crash quicker than the Venszuelan Dollar.

mb10

Mag NB is in such a bad place atm it’s unbelievable.

Didn’t Gilliem join ZOS and was a former NB himself? Surely these changes aren’t coming from him...?

Who would have thought looking back at the Wrobel days, they were great compared to the utter incompetent crap we have now smh

Iskiab

Jeezye wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

I don't think they will ever give a stealth class a burst heal cause that could be pretty broken with the ability to already reset the fight and adding a spammable burst heal I'm guessing you guys are imagining like the templar breath of life or pet heal on magsorc, they definitely could increase the heals they have though on hots though with the new dmg mitigation

Solution for that is pretty easy, give NB reliable burst heal for other morph of cloak. So you can have burst heal OR invisibility. Easy peasy

I have propagated this solution since summerset, but people that actually invest thoughts into issues are sadly not the ones receiving most attention in forums like this...

I’ve said the same thing but everyone wants something different depending on how they play.

Juhasow

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

You stated yourself cloak+roll+shade (and loss)is what is needed to make cloak work most of the time otherwise we both know how it end's if you use just cloak.

Also your argument of avoid cloak counters don't make much sense(the actual half baket arguement),how about you evade Jabs;streak,curse,detection pot and so on if it's so easy then you should never get hit with ever class,reality is different.


Cloak is a l2Pissue,is just people expect to be able to counter it 100% of the time which is wrong oterwhise the skill would be useless.

Streak is is good as cloak(if not better) right now yet where is the sorc nerf hammer?

I agree that can be hard to balance but can be done in other ways instead of gutting the class.
Reduce the counter of cloak and add the cloak fatigue just to say one possible way.
Weaker,punish mistake but is a bit harder to counter.

Yes I've stated that cloak defensively is just a part of the bigger picture of tools that nb have because that is actually a thing for every class defining defense mechanic. And it's also worth to mention that while it's a defensive mechanic it also resembles possibility for very strong offensive behaviour. There is no ability in the game that would be strong as it is without the supporting features. For example templar BoL spam wouldnt be that strong without ability to cleanse with ritual and to heal while holding block , sorc streak wouldnt be as effective without possibility to use dark deal after few streaks etc. This is how defense abilities works - together with other features , taking cloak out of context and debating it in a vacuum is just silly.

You know for example when templar wants to avoid BoL counters like defiles he wont just use BoL , he'll use extended ritual and then BoL. Same goes for cloak counters. To avoid those You are not gonna use cloak , You'll use other things like roll dodge and shadow image to 1st create the distance and then enter cloak.

Very often not being able to deal with cloak counters is also L2P issue but expecting cloak to work 100% of a time is wrong because in that case cloak would be straight broken if You would always be able to just vanish from fight immidiately when needed.

Streak also have counters. They're called mobility and gap closers and streak as ability itself have increase cost fatigue which is counter on its own. I assume on average in PvP there is way more nbs escaping from the fights with cloak then sorcs escaping from the fight with streak.

Without counters to cloak or with counters reduced too much cloak would be simply too strong. As I said in my 1st comment cloak is simply too good when it works. We're talking about ability that when works grants 100% dmg mitigation and complete evasion from the fight while still doing damage to enemy and having adventage of element of suprise. Problem is that lack of cooldowns on abilities makes stealth playstyle in ESO very hard to balance.

Juhasow

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

Yeah because carrying around a couple of detection pots is such a hard thing to do and it's also such a weak counter to be able to completely neutralise cloak for 15 sec...

But I do agree that the detection skills are a bit weak, they should increase the range of them a bit and if you don't use a 360 degree aoe skill it can be a pain to pull them out.
But detection pots are a hard counter and it's not hard to craft a few and have them ready if you fight a nightblade.

Problem is that by using detection pot You're getting possibility to fight nightblade for 15 our of 45 seconds but he can still fight You back or even escape out of the distance of detection pot if playing properly and since You've used detecton potion You've crippled Yourself in other departaments that other potions are good for and You're normally using (for example stam user will loose 20% stam regen). You do not neutralise cloak for 15 sec You just have chance for it if enemy nb was not prepared for that for the cost of loosing some other potion feature for that 45 sec. Most of the nightblades is not prepared because they're caught off guard but those who are very eften easily escapes.

Not to mention that decent detection pots require sometimes corn flower to make which is also making fighting nightblades kinda expensive hobby when stack of those potions can go for ~30k+ which for many people can actually be an issue on its own.

Juhasow

Xvorg wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

on 1v1, cloak can be very strong, even in 1v2 or 1v3. But when you are against an organized group, in which one of the guys is there just to press q and reveal the NB, cloak is useless, so the most reliable source of burst and defense for an entire class is not reliable.

Considering that this game caters towards organized groups, there will be a point in history Cloak is not used for competitive purposses and it will be a wasted slot, so giving something besides cloak to NBs seems like the right option, but I understand that ZoS wants to avoid at all costs the use of cloak for burst healing windows (which imho defines the class even more than cloaked attacks)

When You're against a group of organised players that have counters to Your playstyle You're supposed to die doesnt matter what setup You're playing on. At certain point every defense will fail if multipple decent players will attack one. Like seriously You're using an argument that cloak is weak because You cannot kill groups of decent players running together ?

Cloak will always be used by nightblades. Maybe not by everyone but always nightblades playing solo as rogues will use it.

Freakin_Hytte

Juhasow wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

Yeah because carrying around a couple of detection pots is such a hard thing to do and it's also such a weak counter to be able to completely neutralise cloak for 15 sec...

But I do agree that the detection skills are a bit weak, they should increase the range of them a bit and if you don't use a 360 degree aoe skill it can be a pain to pull them out.
But detection pots are a hard counter and it's not hard to craft a few and have them ready if you fight a nightblade.

Problem is that by using detection pot You're getting possibility to fight nightblade for 15 our of 45 seconds but he can still fight You back or even escape out of the distance of detection pot if playing properly and since You've used detecton potion You've crippled Yourself in other departaments that other potions are good for and You're normally using (for example stam user will loose 20% stam regen). You do not neutralise cloak for 15 sec You just have chance for it if enemy nb was not prepared for that for the cost of loosing some other potion feature for that 45 sec. Most of the nightblades is not prepared because they're caught off guard but those who are very eften easily escapes.

Not to mention that decent detection pots require sometimes corn flower to make which is also making fighting nightblades kinda expensive hobby when stack of those potions can go for ~30k+ which for many people can actually be an issue on its own.

Yes and I think it should stay that way. You can't have it all, everyone got to decide on the pros and cons of different actions and decide if it's worth it it. So is it worth loosing 20% stam regen and two other effects in order to make that nighblades defense neutralised for 15 sec?

I would say yes all the way, if you don't think that then slot a detect skill even if they are underwhelming. You can and shouldn't be able to have it all about anything.
The same with the cost, there is always the option to farm flowers and get them for free and you barely use detect pots. I haven't gone through my stack of 200 in 2 months. If you can't afford 30k every few months, it's that persons issue, because that isn't expensive and you don't go through 200 detect pots in a week if you use them strategically against nightblades.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

You stated yourself cloak+roll+shade (and loss)is what is needed to make cloak work most of the time otherwise we both know how it end's if you use just cloak.

Also your argument of avoid cloak counters don't make much sense(the actual half baket arguement),how about you evade Jabs;streak,curse,detection pot and so on if it's so easy then you should never get hit with ever class,reality is different.


Cloak is a l2Pissue,is just people expect to be able to counter it 100% of the time which is wrong oterwhise the skill would be useless.

Streak is is good as cloak(if not better) right now yet where is the sorc nerf hammer?

I agree that can be hard to balance but can be done in other ways instead of gutting the class.
Reduce the counter of cloak and add the cloak fatigue just to say one possible way.
Weaker,punish mistake but is a bit harder to counter.

Yes I've stated that cloak defensively is just a part of the bigger picture of tools that nb have because that is actually a thing for every class defining defense mechanic. And it's also worth to mention that while it's a defensive mechanic it also resembles possibility for very strong offensive behaviour. There is no ability in the game that would be strong as it is without the supporting features. For example templar BoL spam wouldnt be that strong without ability to cleanse with ritual and to heal while holding block , sorc streak wouldnt be as effective without possibility to use dark deal after few streaks etc. This is how defense abilities works - together with other features , taking cloak out of context and debating it in a vacuum is just silly.

You know for example when templar wants to avoid BoL counters like defiles he wont just use BoL , he'll use extended ritual and then BoL. Same goes for cloak counters. To avoid those You are not gonna use cloak , You'll use other things like roll dodge and shadow image to 1st create the distance and then enter cloak.

Very often not being able to deal with cloak counters is also L2P issue but expecting cloak to work 100% of a time is wrong because in that case cloak would be straight broken if You would always be able to just vanish from fight immidiately when needed.

Streak also have counters. They're called mobility and gap closers and streak as ability itself have increase cost fatigue which is counter on its own. I assume on average in PvP there is way more nbs escaping from the fights with cloak then sorcs escaping from the fight with streak.

Without counters to cloak or with counters reduced too much cloak would be simply too strong. As I said in my 1st comment cloak is simply too good when it works. We're talking about ability that when works grants 100% dmg mitigation and complete evasion from the fight while still doing damage to enemy and having adventage of element of suprise. Problem is that lack of cooldowns on abilities makes stealth playstyle in ESO very hard to balance.

Streak got soft counter,gap closer are not real counters,you can even use streak to stun people and make it impossible to close the gap.
The cost increase it's to help to keep it in check,since unlike cloak you can't suppress it or stop it in any way.
BoL is the same always works,you might use a form of defile but even if the templar don't cleanse it he get the heal.
Cloak instead might work or not it's not guaranted.
This is how ZoS balanced cloak with the amount of counters avaible in the game.

Also i don't think NB expect cloak to work all the time,i always see the opposite,people that don't know how to use counter and/or expect to counter cloak on demand.

Also just to be clear,im saying if we reduce the counter of cloak we can add a fatigue or something to prevent abuse,not reducing or remove counters randomly.

Iskiab

God I hate PTS time sometimes.

Pre-PTS almost everyone agrees NBs are underpowered. As soon as PTS comes up the L2P posts start flooding the forums.

If you’re having issues with NBs in the game you need to learn to play, big time. Everything else is noise.

Juhasow

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

You stated yourself cloak+roll+shade (and loss)is what is needed to make cloak work most of the time otherwise we both know how it end's if you use just cloak.

Also your argument of avoid cloak counters don't make much sense(the actual half baket arguement),how about you evade Jabs;streak,curse,detection pot and so on if it's so easy then you should never get hit with ever class,reality is different.


Cloak is a l2Pissue,is just people expect to be able to counter it 100% of the time which is wrong oterwhise the skill would be useless.

Streak is is good as cloak(if not better) right now yet where is the sorc nerf hammer?

I agree that can be hard to balance but can be done in other ways instead of gutting the class.
Reduce the counter of cloak and add the cloak fatigue just to say one possible way.
Weaker,punish mistake but is a bit harder to counter.

Yes I've stated that cloak defensively is just a part of the bigger picture of tools that nb have because that is actually a thing for every class defining defense mechanic. And it's also worth to mention that while it's a defensive mechanic it also resembles possibility for very strong offensive behaviour. There is no ability in the game that would be strong as it is without the supporting features. For example templar BoL spam wouldnt be that strong without ability to cleanse with ritual and to heal while holding block , sorc streak wouldnt be as effective without possibility to use dark deal after few streaks etc. This is how defense abilities works - together with other features , taking cloak out of context and debating it in a vacuum is just silly.

You know for example when templar wants to avoid BoL counters like defiles he wont just use BoL , he'll use extended ritual and then BoL. Same goes for cloak counters. To avoid those You are not gonna use cloak , You'll use other things like roll dodge and shadow image to 1st create the distance and then enter cloak.

Very often not being able to deal with cloak counters is also L2P issue but expecting cloak to work 100% of a time is wrong because in that case cloak would be straight broken if You would always be able to just vanish from fight immidiately when needed.

Streak also have counters. They're called mobility and gap closers and streak as ability itself have increase cost fatigue which is counter on its own. I assume on average in PvP there is way more nbs escaping from the fights with cloak then sorcs escaping from the fight with streak.

Without counters to cloak or with counters reduced too much cloak would be simply too strong. As I said in my 1st comment cloak is simply too good when it works. We're talking about ability that when works grants 100% dmg mitigation and complete evasion from the fight while still doing damage to enemy and having adventage of element of suprise. Problem is that lack of cooldowns on abilities makes stealth playstyle in ESO very hard to balance.

Streak got soft counter,gap closer are not real counters,you can even use streak to stun people and make it impossible to close the gap.
The cost increase it's to help to keep it in check,since unlike cloak you can't suppress it or stop it in any way.
BoL is the same always works,you might use a form of defile but even if the templar don't cleanse it he get the heal.
Cloak instead might work or not it's not guaranted.
This is how ZoS balanced cloak with the amount of counters avaible in the game.

Also i don't think NB expect cloak to work all the time,i always see the opposite,people that don't know how to use counter and/or expect to counter cloak on demand.

Also just to be clear,im saying if we reduce the counter of cloak we can add a fatigue or something to prevent abuse,not reducing or remove counters randomly.

That is why I also said that counter to streak is simply mobility. If You have setup that have decent mobility tool like some source of major expedition and gap closer You'll be able to chase that sorc and get him almost always because at certain point he'll have to stop streaking. Yes good sorcs are problematic to chase but good nightblades are also problematic to take down because most of the time they'll choose the spots that fit their playstyles where they can take adventage out of cloak even if enemies have counters to it.

Yes BoL is the same always because biggest counter to it is the same always and it's called damage. Damage combined with defile may cause situation where amount of heal gained by BoL is lower then amount of damage that BoL user is getting. That is not the case all the time of course but it's related not to the BoL itself but to the fact how burst healing works in the game in general and how it synergises with other features like block and to the fact that ZoS messed up balance of heals vs damage. BoL is the same always because unlike cloak You cannot stop taking all the damage while healing. Cloak creates that possibility. That possibility when used properly creates extreme adventage so it's obvious cloak requires more counters to make it harder to use when enemies have counters to it. Otherwise it would be simply broken ability.

To be fair it's both. Nightblades expecting for cloak to work always and non nightblades expecting for cloak counters to work always. That doesnt change how cloak and cloak counters work though.

Problem is that if we reduce cloak counters strenght but cloak itself will get some fatigue it wont matter because possibility to vanish safely out of combat is worth that fatigue more then anything else. The issue is that in ESO we have fast paced combat without cooldown on abilities and that makes stealth playstyle hard to balance because both cloak and cloak counters can be abused by using them too often in a fight. I am not saying though that fast paced combat in ESO is bad. I just point out that it makes stealth playstyle hard to balance.

Katahdin

BalticBlues wrote: »

NB still is the most powerful PvP class.
During the current Midyear Mayhem, Bomber Teams of only 2 NBs
are taking out any groups having to stand on flags to take camps and keeps.

There is no counter, even if you know what can happen.
due to the combination of "cloak", "vicious death", "distance detonation" [...] and "sap essence".
Especially if there is a guy in light armor, this means "game over" for all people in a group.

There needs to be a cost increase on Cloak, as there is one on Streak.
Moreover, Light Armor needs to get buffed to be on par with Heavy Armor again.
Even with 2 shields up, no Light Armor guy can survive a Two-NB-Bomber attack.

There is a hard counter to bomb blades
Here it is:



Ready for it?




DON'T STACK ON THE FLAG
SPREAD OUT

You don't need to stack on the flag to flip it.

Put caltrops on the floor approaching the doors and flags in keeps so the bomber gets revealed before getting to you.

BalticBlues

@Katahdin
Did you ever play the game in Light Armor?
Probably not.

1. Slots playing with Light Armor
Already having to sacrifice two slots for LA shields is limiting gameplay enough. In your oppinion, a LA armor MAG user also should sacrifice a third slot for caltrops (a stam skill) against Bombers?

2. Caltrops
Caltrops are entirely useless if smart NB bombers use gap closers to reach their target.

3. Spreading out
There is no room to spread out when people are repairing a door or taking a small outpost flag. Moreover, renewing two shields in LA while repairing is tedious - and does not even help at all against a two-bomber-team.

It is always funny when STAM users try to mansplain their game to MAG users.
Because of NB-bomber-teams and nerf-crippled shields,
having just one LA player in a group is a DEATH RISK for all group members.

ZOS, please bring LA shields (costing 2 slots) at least on par with the new HeavyTank meta (costing 0 slots).

jadarock

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Buff dark cloak. Push players away from the gank playstyle.

Spoken like a true sorc XD

This is the problem with these forums. Someone posts something actually in support of the general premise of the post and fools insult them.

Cloak is useless in group play which is most pvp. Buffing the morph that allows nb to actually help their teammates rather be parasitic cowards hiding in stealth would be good.

Ps: I have 2 nightblades.

Talk about insult and later call people fool,parasitic coward for playing a playstyle he don't enjoy.

The irony.

Pretty sure my AD comrades dont believe I'm a parasite when my burst hits our opponents while defending keeps and outposts

Xvorg

Juhasow wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

Yeah because carrying around a couple of detection pots is such a hard thing to do and it's also such a weak counter to be able to completely neutralise cloak for 15 sec...

But I do agree that the detection skills are a bit weak, they should increase the range of them a bit and if you don't use a 360 degree aoe skill it can be a pain to pull them out.
But detection pots are a hard counter and it's not hard to craft a few and have them ready if you fight a nightblade.

Problem is that by using detection pot You're getting possibility to fight nightblade for 15 our of 45 seconds but he can still fight You back or even escape out of the distance of detection pot if playing properly and since You've used detecton potion You've crippled Yourself in other departaments that other potions are good for and You're normally using (for example stam user will loose 20% stam regen). You do not neutralise cloak for 15 sec You just have chance for it if enemy nb was not prepared for that for the cost of loosing some other potion feature for that 45 sec. Most of the nightblades is not prepared because they're caught off guard but those who are very eften easily escapes.

Not to mention that decent detection pots require sometimes corn flower to make which is also making fighting nightblades kinda expensive hobby when stack of those potions can go for ~30k+ which for many people can actually be an issue on its own.

Aren't there some jewelry glyphs that help with pot CD? Last timeI checked I could keep Alchemist up time around a 80% just by drinking a pot (it is quite strong on argonian NB).

Maybe I should try that build again.

Iskiab

Xvorg wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

Yeah because carrying around a couple of detection pots is such a hard thing to do and it's also such a weak counter to be able to completely neutralise cloak for 15 sec...

But I do agree that the detection skills are a bit weak, they should increase the range of them a bit and if you don't use a 360 degree aoe skill it can be a pain to pull them out.
But detection pots are a hard counter and it's not hard to craft a few and have them ready if you fight a nightblade.

Problem is that by using detection pot You're getting possibility to fight nightblade for 15 our of 45 seconds but he can still fight You back or even escape out of the distance of detection pot if playing properly and since You've used detecton potion You've crippled Yourself in other departaments that other potions are good for and You're normally using (for example stam user will loose 20% stam regen). You do not neutralise cloak for 15 sec You just have chance for it if enemy nb was not prepared for that for the cost of loosing some other potion feature for that 45 sec. Most of the nightblades is not prepared because they're caught off guard but those who are very eften easily escapes.

Not to mention that decent detection pots require sometimes corn flower to make which is also making fighting nightblades kinda expensive hobby when stack of those potions can go for ~30k+ which for many people can actually be an issue on its own.

Aren't there some jewelry glyphs that help with pot CD? Last timeI checked I could keep Alchemist up time around a 80% just by drinking a pot (it is quite strong on argonian NB).

Maybe I should try that build again.

I would, with clever alchemist it’ll be a good build after the patch. Only issue is you’ll stilll be a magblade.

brandonv516

BalticBlues wrote: »

@Katahdin
Did you ever play the game in Light Armor?
Probably not.

1. Slots playing with Light Armor
Already having to sacrifice two slots for LA shields is limiting gameplay enough. In your oppinion, a LA armor MAG user also should sacrifice a third slot for caltrops (a stam skill) against Bombers?

2. Caltrops
Caltrops are entirely useless if smart NB bombers use gap closers to reach their target.

3. Spreading out
There is no room to spread out when people are repairing a door or taking a small outpost flag. Moreover, renewing two shields in LA while repairing is tedious - and does not even help at all against a two-bomber-team.

It is always funny when STAM users try to mansplain their game to MAG users.
Because of NB-bomber-teams and nerf-crippled shields,
having just one LA player in a group is a DEATH RISK for all group members.

ZOS, please bring LA shields (costing 2 slots) at least on par with the new HeavyTank meta (costing 0 slots).

Your poor and frankly strange usage of that term assumes that Stamina players are men and Magicka players are women.

The rest of your response comes off as a dog barking so apologies but I can't reply to any other part of it.

Tommy_The_Gun

I watched a podcast / commentary recently of Isth3reno1else & ll El Lobo ll and at the beginning of it, El Lobo quite accurately summed up current NB situation and how many people react to this on forums (2:00 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs

btw. It is quite an interesting commentary.

Xvorg

Iskiab wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

The price nb pays for having cloak and shadow image in current forms.

Cloak is and always will be a L2P issue,the game is full of counters for it,shadow image got some nerf aswell.

The only price NB pay is be a class that kill bad player easily,which every class can do aswell but "ClOaK!1!1!"

This half baked argument again. I could use the same level of eloquence and counterargue that not knowing how to avoid those cloak counters is l2p issue because most of those counters is weak and easily avoidable with proper gameplay. We could continue that discussion endlessly because reality is that cloak and shade (plus dodge roll on stam) can create extremly strong synergy but can be also pretty lackluster based on multiple factors. Stealth playstyle in ESO is simply a bad design because ability to disengage from fight on demand is extremly strong feature in MMO games and ZoS always had issues to build a class properly around it without making it too strong or too weak. Currently when it works it works too good so it was obvious at some point ZoS will start to take away some tools from nightblades.

Yeah because carrying around a couple of detection pots is such a hard thing to do and it's also such a weak counter to be able to completely neutralise cloak for 15 sec...

But I do agree that the detection skills are a bit weak, they should increase the range of them a bit and if you don't use a 360 degree aoe skill it can be a pain to pull them out.
But detection pots are a hard counter and it's not hard to craft a few and have them ready if you fight a nightblade.

Problem is that by using detection pot You're getting possibility to fight nightblade for 15 our of 45 seconds but he can still fight You back or even escape out of the distance of detection pot if playing properly and since You've used detecton potion You've crippled Yourself in other departaments that other potions are good for and You're normally using (for example stam user will loose 20% stam regen). You do not neutralise cloak for 15 sec You just have chance for it if enemy nb was not prepared for that for the cost of loosing some other potion feature for that 45 sec. Most of the nightblades is not prepared because they're caught off guard but those who are very eften easily escapes.

Not to mention that decent detection pots require sometimes corn flower to make which is also making fighting nightblades kinda expensive hobby when stack of those potions can go for ~30k+ which for many people can actually be an issue on its own.

Aren't there some jewelry glyphs that help with pot CD? Last timeI checked I could keep Alchemist up time around a 80% just by drinking a pot (it is quite strong on argonian NB).

Maybe I should try that build again.

I would, with clever alchemist it’ll be a good build after the patch. Only issue is you’ll stilll be a magblade.

Correction, a Bombastic mageblade xD

I still have to decide If I go sorc or templar... In fact I was thinking about a sort of Witcher hybrid sorc using silver shards and curse (crossbow - Aard)... I was interested in doing it with pelinal's + war maiden, but the combo Alchemist + war maiden seems quite like Geralt of Rivia

Lucky28

mb10 wrote: »

Mag NB is in such a bad place atm it’s unbelievable.

Didn’t Gilliem join ZOS and was a former NB himself? Surely these changes aren’t coming from him...?

Who would have thought looking back at the Wrobel days, they were great compared to the utter incompetent crap we have now smh

pretty much. the current combat team is really really bad. i think the people who are in charge now are probably the ones responsible for all the changes over the years we've 'hated' considering how those poor changes seemed to go into high gear once Wrobel left.

Nyladreas

Lucky28 wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Mag NB is in such a bad place atm it’s unbelievable.

Didn’t Gilliem join ZOS and was a former NB himself? Surely these changes aren’t coming from him...?

Who would have thought looking back at the Wrobel days, they were great compared to the utter incompetent crap we have now smh

pretty much. the current combat team is really really bad. i think the people who are in charge now are probably the ones responsible for all the changes over the years we've 'hated' considering how those poor changes seemed to go into high gear once Wrobel left.

Indeed, now it almost feels like Wrobel kept those guys in check, since the crap we're seeing from the combat devs lately is beyond idiotic.

I mean look at the DK changes too...

Iskiab

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched a podcast / commentary recently of Isth3reno1else & ll El Lobo ll and at the beginning of it, El Lobo quite accurately summed up current NB situation and how many people react to this on forums (2:00 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs

btw. It is quite an interesting commentary.

Watched some of it, listening to them I agreed with some stuff and disagreed with a lot. Here’s all they need to do in general:

Make rapid regen a self only heal
Buff class dots by maybe 15%, less for DKs

I always find it annoying when stam complain about healing in general. I mean, use echoing vigor then. If the current healing so so over the top then you don’t need resolving and use the group heal.

Rapid regen being self only will stop mag being the weak link in groups and they’ll stop using radiating regen, less cross healing will happen naturally.

Hotdog_23

Iskiab wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched a podcast / commentary recently of Isth3reno1else & ll El Lobo ll and at the beginning of it, El Lobo quite accurately summed up current NB situation and how many people react to this on forums (2:00 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs

btw. It is quite an interesting commentary.

Watched some of it, listening to them I agreed with some stuff and disagreed with a lot. Here’s all they need to do in general:

Make rapid regen a self only heal
Buff class dots by maybe 15%, less for DKs

I always find it annoying when stam complain about healing in general. I mean, use echoing vigor then. If the current healing so so over the top then you don’t need resolving and use the group heal.

Rapid regen being self only will stop mag being the weak link in groups and they’ll stop using radiating regen, less cross healing will happen naturally.

I always find it funny when someone calls for a buff to all DOTs but not so much for DK dots. When Nercos have a passive that increases all DOTS whether in class or not and DK’s only increases passive only increases 3 class Dots’.

I agree make Rapid Regeneration a self-heal only and leave Radiating Regeneration the way it is.

Iskiab

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched a podcast / commentary recently of Isth3reno1else & ll El Lobo ll and at the beginning of it, El Lobo quite accurately summed up current NB situation and how many people react to this on forums (2:00 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs

btw. It is quite an interesting commentary.

Watched some of it, listening to them I agreed with some stuff and disagreed with a lot. Here’s all they need to do in general:

Make rapid regen a self only heal
Buff class dots by maybe 15%, less for DKs

I always find it annoying when stam complain about healing in general. I mean, use echoing vigor then. If the current healing so so over the top then you don’t need resolving and use the group heal.

Rapid regen being self only will stop mag being the weak link in groups and they’ll stop using radiating regen, less cross healing will happen naturally.

I always find it funny when someone calls for a buff to all DOTs but not so much for DK dots. When Nercos have a passive that increases all DOTS whether in class or not and DK’s only increases passive only increases 3 class Dots’.

I agree make Rapid Regeneration a self-heal only and leave Radiating Regeneration the way it is.

Reason being for DK dots to be less is last PTS they buffed DK dots to be stronger then other classes. It made sense if dots are over nerfed, but it dots are buffed I don’t see a point in leaving them stronger then other classes.

Nyladreas

Iskiab wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched a podcast / commentary recently of Isth3reno1else & ll El Lobo ll and at the beginning of it, El Lobo quite accurately summed up current NB situation and how many people react to this on forums (2:00 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTP1WSIUZhs

btw. It is quite an interesting commentary.

Watched some of it, listening to them I agreed with some stuff and disagreed with a lot. Here’s all they need to do in general:

Make rapid regen a self only heal
Buff class dots by maybe 15%, less for DKs

I always find it annoying when stam complain about healing in general. I mean, use echoing vigor then. If the current healing so so over the top then you don’t need resolving and use the group heal.

Rapid regen being self only will stop mag being the weak link in groups and they’ll stop using radiating regen, less cross healing will happen naturally.

I always find it funny when someone calls for a buff to all DOTs but not so much for DK dots. When Nercos have a passive that increases all DOTS whether in class or not and DK’s only increases passive only increases 3 class Dots’.

I agree make Rapid Regeneration a self-heal only and leave Radiating Regeneration the way it is.

Reason being for DK dots to be less is last PTS they buffed DK dots to be stronger then other classes. It made sense if dots are over nerfed, but it dots are buffed I don’t see a point in leaving them stronger then other classes.

DK is a dot-centric class and as far as I can remember always had to build around them. It's a part of their class identity and Imho it's nice to have one class excell at something