The change to Vykosa monster helm is a bad change

Royaji

I'd say it's actually a buff. Overall less mitigation but with signigicantly more reliable uptime. Especially since it's a unique effect now.

Optimising your build around live Vykosa is an incredible risk or an incredible waste. Either you are relying on a 3 second buff with extremely long 15 s cooldown which has only semi-reliable proc condition (sometimes you have to bash an interruptable mechanic and waste Vykosa entirely). Or having to build in such a way that you can survive even if Vykosa happenes to be on cooldown when you need it most and then why are you even using Vykosa in the first place?

typo

Urzigurumash

Despite the numbers at 4k boss damage, I agree with @Royaji , and the idea of using this in PvP with the 20% uptime to me was always absurd, at 66% uptime it's worth another look, in my opinion.

cheifsoap

This set would never be used in pvp vs. all of the other great pvp monster helm sets available: bloodspawn, Balorghs, Thurvokun; just to name a few. @Royaji It was specifically used in vSS > Nahvii and yes, you would have to time your bash...which isn't so crazy to fathom.

Royaji

cheifsoap wrote: »

This set would never be used in pvp vs. all of the other great pvp monster helm sets available: bloodspawn, Balorghs, Thurvokun; just to name a few. @Royaji It was specifically used in vSS > Nahvii and yes, you would have to time your bash...which isn't so crazy to fathom.

Being useful exclusively in one very specific fight is not a good place for a set to be in. PTS Vykosa is not a very strong set. But at least it's a lot more universally useful.

cheifsoap

Royaji wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

This set would never be used in pvp vs. all of the other great pvp monster helm sets available: bloodspawn, Balorghs, Thurvokun; just to name a few. @Royaji It was specifically used in vSS > Nahvii and yes, you would have to time your bash...which isn't so crazy to fathom.

Being useful exclusively in one very specific fight is not a good place for a set to be in. PTS Vykosa is not a very strong set. But at least it's a lot more universally useful.

It's a better place to be in than 75% of the monster helms in the game. This change; assuming it is a nerf, will place this niche helm in to that "useless" category.

IonicKai

Royaji wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

This set would never be used in pvp vs. all of the other great pvp monster helm sets available: bloodspawn, Balorghs, Thurvokun; just to name a few. @Royaji It was specifically used in vSS > Nahvii and yes, you would have to time your bash...which isn't so crazy to fathom.

Being useful exclusively in one very specific fight is not a good place for a set to be in. PTS Vykosa is not a very strong set. But at least it's a lot more universally useful.

Idk I feel like it was useful in a specific situation (vSS dragon breath) and is now a terrible set unless the bosses have 1000 weapon/spell damage and we all know it's more. The higher up time is nice in theory but there is a reason it was only used in vSS really. It was a timed high burst damage that you could mitigate a good chunk of with a well timed bash.

Urzigurumash

cheifsoap wrote: »

This set would never be used in pvp vs. all of the other great pvp monster helm sets available: bloodspawn, Balorghs, Thurvokun; just to name a few. @Royaji It was specifically used in vSS > Nahvii and yes, you would have to time your bash...which isn't so crazy to fathom.

Almost exclusively for use with Vanguard's Challenge, with either a personal survivability set or maybe Fasalla's Guile instead of Thurvokun. Not saying it's a great idea but this is an improvement.

Deltrox

Hey everyone, I actually did tests on the new Vykosa yesterday. You can check out the full video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbsg9ztIYAk&t=1s .

TL;DW For diminishing Veteran Olms' Storm the Heavens attack (which is where I felt Vykosa was most widely used), live Vykosa reduced about 4000 damage per bolt while PTS Vykosa will reduce damage by about 500 damage per bolt. This is an incredibly heavy nerf and will reduce Vykosa to useless-tier.

thadjarvis

Right now Vykosa sees use for low cp tanks learning vSS. Could use it in HRC for same reason. I’ve used on Vykosa just for kicks. Other than that is it used?

Maybe a better question is do NB tanks use power extraction often in hardest content? They're pretty similar and we usually opt to use a skill first over a set. I've used it, but my NB tank is pretty new.

Can either version beat out popular survival sets: Chudan, Stonekeeper?

Can either version beat out the current group benefit helms:

• Bloodspawn great in some instances for more utli but not great on most bosses as you get hit hard rather than not many times per second so it's meh in some harder encounters
• Lord Warden not often in range of DD's; better on healer typically
• Symphony of Blades: (my) default on any support as there doesn't seem to be any other (group) monster worthwhile most of the time
• Thurvokun: AOE minor main; great for trash/adds

It is a shame to see it go because the proc condition is awesome in that it's actively controlled by the player. Wish there were more not less monsters that gave player control of the proc. Maarselok is the only left?

Lisutaris

3seconds are short, yes. But its very useful, not only vsa dragon breaths. There it feels awesome yes, but only if a tank does not mess up bash and cd timer.
for example. Aa hm atro explosion, vhrc warrior aoe, and for more content, its also very strong if time management ist good.
high risk high reward set. Like it should be.
if they want to buff it, make 4seconds.

Or change to the 30% reduction buff (inc) if calculated dmg is the same.

umagon

The truly super glyph of weakening has better uptime, reduces more that the two piece monster set and only requires a light attack to activate. I don’t see how the change to the monster set is an improvement.

robpr

umagon wrote: »

The truly super glyph of weakening has better uptime, reduces more that the two piece monster set and only requires a light attack to activate. I don’t see how the change to the monster set is an improvement.

Its 348 if you use it on 2h weapon, where typically Crusher should be unless you want your healers to run it.
I'd bump the reduction to 500 or reduce the CD even further for a bonus of conditional set - it was clearly changed for the new set in mind that gives both major maim and vitality.

IonicKai

Yeah they really need to buff this if it's going to be a flat number or give it a flat scale that's not major maim so that it can be stacked as a unique like alkosh as a buff but instead it's a debuff of like 15%

code65536

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You say this because you think the 268 power reduction is much weaker than Major Maim? If I understand the note correctly, this new debuff will have a possible 66.6% uptime, whereas the live debuff has only a possible 20% uptime. I have no idea whether it's accurate or not, but I've read most bosses have 2500 weapon damage, which means Major Maim gives 750 power reduction.

Anyhow if these things are true (which they may not be), the new Vykosa provides a little more overall power reduction:

268*.666= 178.488 overall reduction
750*.2= 150 overall reduction

Also, I believe there are at least 2 other sources of Major Maim: Frozen Device, which might not be practical to use in most situations, and Solar Prison, which I assume is difficult to use to get 20% uptime on Major Maim in most groups, but regardless, the new unique debuff provides for more possible power reduction.

I assume we do not consider PvP use of Vykosa in this contemplation, if this is your concern I'm very interested in this build - if you're out there in Vykosa and Vanguard's Challenge then I'm impressed.

Uptime is irrelevant.

Incoming damage happens in bursts and is usually not a consistent stream. On paper, the new Vykosa might have more uptime, but in practice, it does not have more effective uptime because much of that uptime will be wasted on periods when we don't really care about the incoming damage.

Dealing with incoming damage is often reactive. And Vykosa on Live is a great tool for reactively dealing with damage. The PTS change makes it worthless for that and instead makes it useful for imagined use cases that exist on paper but not in reality.

cheifsoap

Deltrox wrote: »

Hey everyone, I actually did tests on the new Vykosa yesterday. You can check out the full video here <edited out video link to shorten reply>

TL;DW For diminishing Veteran Olms' Storm the Heavens attack (which is where I felt Vykosa was most widely used), live Vykosa reduced about 4000 damage per bolt while PTS Vykosa will reduce damage by about 500 damage per bolt. This is an incredibly heavy nerf and will reduce Vykosa to useless-tier.

And this is pretty much what I feared. Thank you for doing this.

All, my concern has never been "it'll make fights harder" - it won't, we'll adjust just like we always have. Its the concept that it was taking a very niche monster helm that actually had a purpose and a job and it's tossing it in with 75% of the monster helms in being useless. This philosophy IMO; is a bad one and not healthy for the game or itemization.

thadjarvis

Definitely, a player controlled special situation set becoming lackluster. Myself and another tank tried on various trials for about a month. We ended up dropping it generally but it had uses. It is a useful option to pull out if group is struggling to get through a particular boss damage mechanic. Avoiding blowing a support ultimate on barrier/maim/protection is nice. The lower potency version could still help but likely doesn't replace a defensive ultimate.

CaptainCarunch

It's a nerf and an unnecessary one. Plain and simple. Is it currently of "limited use"? Yes. But the key word is use. It has one. If changes go live it doesn't even warrant the inventory space in a storage coffer tucked away in the far corner of your house.

John_Falstaff

So, another great - if situational - set in tanks' arsenal that rewarded skill with great effect in some fights (I liked using it when tanking dragons in vSS) is reduced to garbage? Why am I not surprised.

I'm just peeking in from my long hiatus - I've last launched the game back in July - to see if there's any improvement with ESO combat. Nope, same thing - arbitrary and inexplicable nerfs, revenue-driven balancing, complete lack of communication from ZOS. The game's just getting worse and worse with each and every patch.

satanio

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So, another great - if situational - set in tanks' arsenal that rewarded skill with great effect in some fights (I liked using it when tanking dragons in vSS) is reduced to garbage? Why am I not surprised.

The fun part is that, they are releasing some new set, (that comes from upcoming DLC dungeon), that has the same effect but on 5th set piece. So it seems, that the key to solve the introduction of new sets and overall oversaturation of "not-so-great" sets is simply not solving it at all and recycling old "good" effects while nerfing it on the original set.

karekiz

This change basically says to me:

ZoS: What do we have for a tank set? I dunno re-release this other set in a different worse way. Gotcha.

This set would have been fine if it was its own monster set. Not a retrofit to smack the same thing onto a new set in a more clunky way.

Using Niche sets for specific encounters or abilities is exactly what monster sets should in general (Especially tanks) be. The real question is are people actually going to use the new 5 piece set instead of the current sets? If not, we basically removed a set from the game.

Need Huge burst reduction? Vykosa. Need Small reduction over a longer period of time? This (New) set. That way at least both be considered to use.

cheifsoap

karekiz wrote: »

This change basically says to me:

ZoS: What do we have for a tank set? I dunno re-release this other set in a different worse way. Gotcha.

This set would have been fine if it was its own monster set. Not a retrofit to smack the same thing onto a new set in a more clunky way.

Using Niche sets for specific encounters or abilities is exactly what monster sets should in general (Especially tanks) be. The real question is are people actually going to use the new 5 piece set instead of the current sets? If not, we basically removed a set from the game.

Need Huge burst reduction? Vykosa. Need Small reduction over a longer period of time? This (New) set. That way at least both be considered to use.

I doubt any tank will be using the new 5pc set because it requires 5pc for it to function. It won't replace ebon, yol, alkosh, hircine, worm, etc. I like the idea...but I would like it more if it was on a 2pc monster set > 5pc set

Ivan04

I actually tested this and overworld bosses, for example, actually have roughly 5000 weapon dmg, so 268 would be very weak. I am quite surprised with how some DLC sets are so weak, and some are overpowered.