State of ESO on the Mac 2020

Vivifier

I play in windowed borderless. The one called windowed ( fullscreen)


EDIT : I use switchressX to change into 1080p. You could try easyRess which is in the appstore free and take it to 1152, I guess the performance will be similar

BlueRaven

Thanks!

demerdecanswrath

Given the Greymoor launch, the Stadia launch, the advances in performance improvements and what-not, is there any progress on the Mac client yet @ZOS_GinaBruno / @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ? Have you contracted any Mac dev to get the dirty work done right?

It's insane how long it's been.

BlueRaven

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Given the Greymoor launch, the Stadia launch, the advances in performance improvements and what-not, is there any progress on the Mac client yet @ZOS_GinaBruno / @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ? Have you contracted any Mac dev to get the dirty work done right?

It's insane how long it's been.

Personally, I have pretty much given up hope at this point.

Soulshine

So I guess no ESO on Big Sur...

demerdecanswrath

MASSIVE news from WWDC20.

I'm not going to speculate for Apple or ZoS on this matter, I'm just going to quote what I said in April:

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

People miss a serious point: Macs aren't PCs. Macs aren't consoles either. Macs are macs.

They might not be a big market, but they are a solid market. With a strong tendency to spend. It is kind of a shame that we're still in the middle of a massive transformation for the Mac - Metal APIs & DriverKit for software, ARM chips for hardware -, but this will only serve what the Mac always did best: remain a solid platform with a loyal customer base for the decades to come.

....

ZoS: Apple will always be Apple. Don't try to overcome it, delay it or even ignore it. Start scheming and get some actual resources on it, the Metal move was superb just keep "honing" the client!

Although I'm somewhat optimistic given the courageous Metal move back in 2018 with the minimal resources ZoS has had back in that day, here are just a couple of action points ZoS should do, or even barely communicate about, IMO:

1. Plan for proper macOS client compilation to the Apple Universal 2 binary. (so both Intel & Apple chips run it) with all compatibilities and feature additions in mind. No more lack of mind-bendingly basic features.
2. Drop the PC/Mac coupled branding, or at least get rid of the 2010-era sticker for something more relevant.

demerdecanswrath

Back once again, with a bucket full of hope for Monday's PTS.
Remember dear friends, no Mac-specific entries in the patch notes (or replies here, for that matter) is directly related to:

1. >3 months of the same, defective client.
2. No apparent progress in ZoS' communications or business strategies
3. Direct violations of this community's trust.

demerdecanswrath

Mac Game Client
Windowed (Fullscreen) mode on Mac will now use a borderless window.

Interesting, a design choice. Don't have the resources to check it out on the PTS atm.

Hopefully this means someone is charging up the defibrillators for that 8 year old DoA executable and they're not just messing around with the Info.plist file again.

BlueRaven

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Mac Game Client
Windowed (Fullscreen) mode on Mac will now use a borderless window.

Interesting, a design choice. Don't have the resources to check it out on the PTS atm.

Hopefully this means someone is charging up the defibrillators for that 8 year old DoA executable and they're not just messing around with the Info.plist file again.

I honestly don’t understand. Of all the things to work on for the Mac client, they chose this?

Do our bug reports do anything at all? Does anybody actually read them?

Maybe I should go back to submitting them each and every time my system crashes. I recently had to open a ticket to have a character moved since I could not log back into one that was in an area of western Skyrim.
If they are not going to fix the client, at least it will get some of my frustrations out.

thedavidventer

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Mac Game Client
Windowed (Fullscreen) mode on Mac will now use a borderless window.

Interesting, a design choice. Don't have the resources to check it out on the PTS atm.

Hopefully this means someone is charging up the defibrillators for that 8 year old DoA executable and they're not just messing around with the Info.plist file again.

Yeah, here's hoping it's a proper macOS Fullscreen/spaces/multitasking integration and not just hiding the window border while it's still not properly fullscreen with the dock and taskbar still visible. I truly hope they integrated it the right way; the way that apps are supposed to function in fullscreen mode on macOS. Apple has all the guides and documentation available for developers to do it the right way. Here's hoping they actually pay attention to Apple's guidelines so that the macOS client can truly be macOS compatible.

There's been another patch and I was once again hoping that controller input would also get fixed, but still no fix or even an acknowledgement of the controller input issue from ZOS staff. I've been reporting it since April along with links to Apple Developer documentation on how to fix it. If the dev team would just actually read Apple's guides, or hire someone who actually knows what they're doing with macOS integration, then these things would be super easy and quick to fix. I don't understand why these issues appear to be either impossible and monumental or irrelevant and unimportant to the dev team. It's as if the macOS game client is just an afterthought and as long as it barely runs, with low resolution and lack of macOS feature integration, they seem happy about it. It's seriously disappointing.

demerdecanswrath

thedavidventer wrote: »

It's seriously disappointing.

I can't wrap my head around how such nice people like @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno haven't gotten a minute off of their working day (which, I'm sure has been very demanding, especially these past few months) to reassure a living, breathing portion of their community that, even if nothing is on the pipeline at least acknowledge that the situation is being monitored (which besides our rants & ramblings I'm sure it is, even at a bare minimum). Last message was a dismissal 1.5 years ago.

A community without any sort of vocal representation internally in the company is, well, nothing but a sales front.

..and that's why I distanced myself when I saw all those glorious Skyrim/Greymoor announcements.
Because it's not really meant for us. The "Mac" logo is there just to keep the CFO happy.
Not for any developers, community managers, or support staff.

Rewrite the mac client if I'm wrong. To think the first post in this entire thread is still immensely relevant insults everyone in here.

BlueRaven

I am still having a multitude of issues with the Mac client, but at this point it feels like it’s pointless to report them or even post about it here.
Everything has been said and it feels like little if anything is being done about it.

“ Mac Game Client
Windowed (Fullscreen) mode on Mac will now use a borderless window.”

Was this a pressing issue with this community?
Was this such a difficult update that this is the only “fix” for the Mac community this patch?

demerdecanswrath

Ok now please, someone from ZoS come forth and explain why any Mac ESO player's intelligence shouldn't be insulted with the home NPC "pathing" demo. These aren't priorities. This is reaching absolute nonsense.

4 Y E A R S after Chris Dillman left and there are absolutely no signs of any kind of Mac client maintenance still on the horizon. This is literally a couple months' contract work, by ZoS' actual QA standards. No communication, no compensation, untrained Mac support staff & not a single relevant job posting.

I'm done playing, as well as advocating for this. It's a tremendous loss of time, money and attention. It's been a great 6 years and I would never wish this gaming fate to any of the rest of The Elder Scrolls fans.

As always, and forever, refer to the first post for the age-old persisting issues.

Godspeed to the rest of you faithful TES fans with an eye for design.

P.S.: Thank you for making this the most viewed thread of 2020 in this section so far. At least this community's priorities and intentions are crystal clear. Now for this forum account's last dying wish, I'd ask for @ZOS_BillE or @ZOS_GinaBruno to lock this thread, as it has been deemed irrelevant by me, and by the practices followed in this organisation.

BlueRaven

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Ok now please, someone from ZoS come forth and explain why any Mac ESO player's intelligence shouldn't be insulted with the home NPC "pathing" demo. These aren't priorities. This is reaching absolute nonsense.

4 Y E A R S after Chris Dillman left and there are absolutely no signs of any kind of Mac client maintenance still on the horizon. This is literally a couple months' contract work, by ZoS' actual QA standards. No communication, no compensation, untrained Mac support staff & not a single relevant job posting.

I'm done playing, as well as advocating for this. It's a tremendous loss of time, money and attention. It's been a great 6 years and I would never wish this gaming fate to any of the rest of The Elder Scrolls fans.

As always, and forever, refer to the first post for the age-old persisting issues.

Godspeed to the rest of you faithful TES fans with an eye for design.

P.S.: Thank you for making this the most viewed thread of 2020 in this section so far. At least this community's priorities and intentions are crystal clear. Now for this forum account's last dying wish, I'd ask for @ZOS_BillE or @ZOS_GinaBruno to lock this thread, as it has been deemed irrelevant by me, and by the practices followed in this organisation.

I don't think the people who did the pathing are the same people who work on the Mac client. I don't think it's an either/or issue. So I am not at all upset by the addition.

"Mac Game Client
Windowed (Fullscreen) mode on Mac will now use a borderless window."

This is much more frustrating to me. Implementing a borderless window feels like a half a day, cut and paste from a "how to" article on the internet "fix". Over the past three months, this is all they did with the client?

thedavidventer

Just tried the latest update. Windowed (Fullscreen) mode is STILL NOT fullscreen. It's just Windowed (Borderless). They literally just disabled the border but there's still no fullscreen/spaces/multitasking integration. I don't think that ZOS staff knows how Fullscreen works in macOS. If only they would take 5 minutes to look at Apple's Developer Documentation this could easily be fixed.

Here's a little hint on how it's supposed to work: Open literally ANY other app/game on Mac (Try any game from the App Store or even World of Warcraft) - see the green dot at the top left of the window? Click it. BOOM, see that? Is it magic? No, It's just a properly integrated Windowed (Fullscreen) mode. Now swipe left or right with two fingers on your trackpad or Magic Mouse... What's that? Oooh Magic? No, that's called spaces and multitasking/app switching; something that properly coded Windowed (Fullscreen) apps can do on macOS. You know; the ability to swipe out to Discord or whatever while you're gaming in Windowed (Fullscreen) mode. Glorious isn't it? But this...

Dear ZOS, This...



... is NOT Windowed (Fullscreen). Also, the resolution is still limited. Oh and, controller input is still broken too.

PLEASE FIX THE MACOS GAME CLIENT! LOOK AT APPLE DEVELOPER DOCUMENTATION. STUDY THE GAME CONTROLLER FRAMEWORK AND GAMEKIT API AND FIX THIS MESS! Thanks.

thedavidventer

Some interesting news:

https://www.engadget.com/microsoft-buys-zenimax-bethesda-id-arkane-131006192.html

Could this mean that they'll finally have the means to employ actual macOS developers and finally give us a great gaming experience in ESO? or perhaps the fact that it's Microsoft would mean that they're going to be even less helpful when it comes to the macOS game client? Microsoft makes some great apps for macOS and iOS though so I'm sure the macOS support will continue, and hopefully improve because, the current state of things is just tragic.

Gattopardo

thedavidventer wrote: »

I'm sure the macOS support will continue

I'm not so sure about that, if they get the starting issues out of the Stadia version, they have the best excuse to get rid of the mac client, in the end they haven't done proper maintenance on the client for years, and in the new patch notes there is nothing that actually fixes any issues (only thing is the random new graphic option), so maybe they keep it alive for a few more patches but with Microsoft buying them, I think it's the beginning of the end for the mac client esp with Apple moving to their Silicon chips in the future
But I'm happy to be proven wrong and get a fixed client at some point

thedavidventer

Gattopardo wrote: »

thedavidventer wrote: »

I'm sure the macOS support will continue

I'm not so sure about that, if they get the starting issues out of the Stadia version, they have the best excuse to get rid of the mac client, in the end they haven't done proper maintenance on the client for years, and in the new patch notes there is nothing that actually fixes any issues (only thing is the random new graphic option), so maybe they keep it alive for a few more patches but with Microsoft buying them, I think it's the beginning of the end for the mac client esp with Apple moving to their Silicon chips in the future
But I'm happy to be proven wrong and get a fixed client at some point

Microsoft has a good relationship with Apple. Their apps for macOS and iOS (Office 365, Microsoft Selfie, Skype, Edge, ZOOM, etc.) always use the latest Apple API’s and they’re working on an Xbox remote play app for iOS (not the game streaming service, just a remote play app that’ll allow you to play Xbox games you own from your own Xbox on your iPhone when connected to the same network, kinda like Steam Link). So I’m seriously hoping that with Microsoft in charge, that we’ll see some adoption of Apple’s new API’s in ESO for macOS so that we can have decent controller support and a functioning full screen experience. Here’s hoping.

karpok

Well actually the full screen thing is getting worst over time.
Until last patch you could go to window full screen mode simply by sliding the game window to a new workspace. And it was behaving just as @thedavidventer mentioned.
But now it doesn't work anymore, you keep getting this borderless window in any situation.

BlueRaven

thedavidventer wrote: »

Gattopardo wrote: »

thedavidventer wrote: »

I'm sure the macOS support will continue

I'm not so sure about that, if they get the starting issues out of the Stadia version, they have the best excuse to get rid of the mac client, in the end they haven't done proper maintenance on the client for years, and in the new patch notes there is nothing that actually fixes any issues (only thing is the random new graphic option), so maybe they keep it alive for a few more patches but with Microsoft buying them, I think it's the beginning of the end for the mac client esp with Apple moving to their Silicon chips in the future
But I'm happy to be proven wrong and get a fixed client at some point

Microsoft has a good relationship with Apple. Their apps for macOS and iOS (Office 365, Microsoft Selfie, Skype, Edge, ZOOM, etc.) always use the latest Apple API’s and they’re working on an Xbox remote play app for iOS (not the game streaming service, just a remote play app that’ll allow you to play Xbox games you own from your own Xbox on your iPhone when connected to the same network, kinda like Steam Link). So I’m seriously hoping that with Microsoft in charge, that we’ll see some adoption of Apple’s new API’s in ESO for macOS so that we can have decent controller support and a functioning full screen experience. Here’s hoping.

Here is an article about Microsofts 23 first party game studios.

https://kotaku.com/microsoft-now-has-23-first-party-studios-heres-what-th-1845135898

Twenty three studios working on who knows how many titles. And while the "mac" shows up five times, and they are all about past titles. Their relation ship with Apple may be a lot less contentious, but that does not mean they make a lot of game software for the Mac.
I think Mac/ESO relationship will continue, but I really don't expect anything to appear to change for us.

BlueRaven

Side Note: Is anyone else freezing a lot on the character selection screen lately?

thedavidventer

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think Mac/ESO relationship will continue, but I really don't expect anything to appear to change for us.

Yeah, I'm probably being delusional but I love this game so ####ing much. Decent macOS support & integration would be the best thing ever!

thedavidventer

Found an interesting workaround to get ESO to run Fullscreen properly, with multitasking/spaces support.

1. Set the game to Windowed mode.
2. Click "Window" in the macOS menu bar and select "Tile Window to Left of Screen"
3. Click anywhere in the left and it'll expand to fill the entire screen.
4. You now have a properly functional Fullscreen mode, no dock or menubar, and with ESO running in its own space that you can swipe in/out of, like any other properly coded macOS app/game.

You're welcome.

Honestly, it's ridiculous that ZOS can't manage to get this working properly from the Windowed (Fullscreen) setting but at least this workaround FINALLY allows us to enjoy actual fullscreen mode on macOS that doesn't lock you into the game.

Still waiting for that Gamepad input fix. Starting to wonder if it'll ever happen or if there's any point in raising issues on this "Customer Support" forum. Such "valued customers" we are, being completely ignored. *sigh*
But yeah, enjoy the fullscreen workaround guys, it makes a HUGE difference :-)

Wookyenub18_ESO

Comparison today of Mac version on Catalina 10.15.7 vs Windows 10 under bootcamp on a Late 2015 iMac 5K (no HDR) 27" w/ best video card w/ graphics on High, and 32 MB RAM.

Mac (no add-ons).
Only issue: when moving there are random stutters where toon pauses for 1 second before continuing. Especially noticeable when sprinting on horseback. This would be a showstopper in PvP Group raids in Cyrodiil. Never happened on Mac in 2017-2018. Does not happen on Windows in 2020.

Frame rate and ping much better than when I last played on Mac OS in 2018. If stand in corner in crowded Glenumbra Bank get 53 FPS. This is much better than my experience from 2014-2018 which was still good enough for PvP.

Keybindings are stored on the server so only have to do them once. I use a Corsair gaming keyboard and Numpad keys etc work on Mac. Similarly Razer Naga mouse settings in Razer Synapse app are cross-platform.

Cmd-F switched smoothly between fullscreen window and fullscreen for me.

Windows 10.
Has latest updates for base Windows. Then installed Feature Pack 2004 today and after awhile in game screen lines desynced and then Windows rebooted. Event log showed BSOD. Backed out the update.

Colors are noticeably brighter and richer than under Mac OS without being washed out. Am getting the P3 colors. Obviously colors in game were optimized for PC not Mac. Difference may not be noticeable on newer Mac w/ HDR.
Frame rate has been improving with recent releases - right now I'm getting 97 FPS standing in corner in Auridon Bank.

There are occasional game crashes in Cyrodiil at peak times but not more than some other players on actual PCs.
I have the latest AMD drivers installed but had random screen lockups; cause must be AMD-driver related (not overclocking, not overheating) but have seen only a couple of people report this problem and they were on PC a couple of years ago. I've had only one since removing add on LUI Extended (add-ons should not be able to cause crashes so idk).

TheBunny

Wookyenub18_ESO,

You should be able to calibrate your Macs Display color profile to match that of a PC, Gamma range etc and get matching colors like you see when running under windows if you really want to.

demerdecanswrath

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

* no true full screen/close options, macOS character menu popping up randomly, no dark mode, disappearing cursors, no Retina option support, no auto-keyboard switching to English (when a non latin character keyboard is enabled, leading also to white boxes for keyboard hints), poor PS4 & Xbox controller support (their drivers are now built into macOS Catalina) and doesn't really belong here but the Launcher needs some of these features mentioned here.

2 years later:
hEy gUYs We jUst fixED a BUg aBouT SitTinG in ChaIRs

aldriq

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

2 years later:
hEy gUYs We jUst fixED a BUg aBouT SitTinG in ChaIRs

I was gonna say... clearly porting to Apple silicon was always going out of the question when bugs like these take the bulk of dev resources

demerdecanswrath

Letter from Mac - ESO's future Mac support :

As most Mac users know, last summer Apple announced that new Macs will no longer be built with Intel CPUs. Instead, new Macs will utilize a new custom-built ARM CPU going forward. The first of these devices was announced earlier this month at an Apple event.

Please be aware that these new ARM-based Macs cannot run software created for Intel-based computers. Additionally, these new machines will not support Boot Camp either, so you cannot dual boot an ARM-based Mac into Windows. This means that all software running on the new Macs must either be re-written for ARM or must run through an emulator. X86 emulation comes with a significant performance impact—in general, emulation is okay for software like office productivity apps, but not for gaming.

All of this puts a burden on software developers like ZOS to port their products to the new architecture. It is a huge undertaking to port a product as old, large, and complex as ESO to a new CPU, with no certain outcome of success. Because of these factors, we will not be porting ESO to run on the new ARM-based Macs. ESO will continue to run on Intel-based Macs, and we will support it as long as there is a large enough Mac user base to warrant it. While it will be technically possible to run ESO via x86 emulation on the new Macs, expect a subpar gaming experience that we will not officially support.

If you purchase a new ARM-based Mac, you will still have some options to play ESO. The most obvious one is that you can log into your account from any PC (or Intel-based Mac) and still be able to play with all of your account and character data. You also have the option of playing (with your current account and characters) on Stadia, a cloud-streaming service that uses the same servers as your current Mac-based accounts—so if you do use Stadia, you can continue to play uninterrupted with your existing account and character data.

Matt

Well, for a company that stands for inclusion and community, this screams hypocrisy.

I've been playing for 3 years. 2 of those years have been a financially overexploited, technically underdeveloped nightmare of an Elder Scrolls game that pulls you in partly thanks to the original TES nostalgia.

^ I'll leave this review wherever I can, hoping to get someone's head straight. Rot in hell, ZoS.

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO

demerdecanswrath wrote: »

Letter from Mac - ESO's future Mac support :

As most Mac users know, last summer Apple announced that new Macs will no longer be built with Intel CPUs. Instead, new Macs will utilize a new custom-built ARM CPU going forward. The first of these devices was announced earlier this month at an Apple event.

Please be aware that these new ARM-based Macs cannot run software created for Intel-based computers. Additionally, these new machines will not support Boot Camp either, so you cannot dual boot an ARM-based Mac into Windows. This means that all software running on the new Macs must either be re-written for ARM or must run through an emulator. X86 emulation comes with a significant performance impact—in general, emulation is okay for software like office productivity apps, but not for gaming.

All of this puts a burden on software developers like ZOS to port their products to the new architecture. It is a huge undertaking to port a product as old, large, and complex as ESO to a new CPU, with no certain outcome of success. Because of these factors, we will not be porting ESO to run on the new ARM-based Macs. ESO will continue to run on Intel-based Macs, and we will support it as long as there is a large enough Mac user base to warrant it. While it will be technically possible to run ESO via x86 emulation on the new Macs, expect a subpar gaming experience that we will not officially support.

If you purchase a new ARM-based Mac, you will still have some options to play ESO. The most obvious one is that you can log into your account from any PC (or Intel-based Mac) and still be able to play with all of your account and character data. You also have the option of playing (with your current account and characters) on Stadia, a cloud-streaming service that uses the same servers as your current Mac-based accounts—so if you do use Stadia, you can continue to play uninterrupted with your existing account and character data.

Matt

Well, for a company that stands for inclusion and community, this screams hypocrisy.

I've been playing for 3 years. 2 of those years have been a financially overexploited, technically underdeveloped nightmare of an Elder Scrolls game that pulls you in partly thanks to the original TES nostalgia.

^ I'll leave this review wherever I can, hoping to get someone's head straight. Rot in hell, ZoS.

Lol seriously ?
That’s their official response about apple taking a leap and huge gamble for ditching the ancient x86 ????
By switch the game to arm based they could even port their game easily to iOS & tvOS which are huge

demerdecanswrath

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lol seriously ?
That’s their official response about apple taking a leap and huge gamble for ditching the ancient x86 ????
By switch the game to arm based they could even port their game easily to iOS & tvOS which are huge

Porting to idevices would be a very complicated effort. Just. simply. :
1. Move launcher development in house
2. Hire an experienced mac dev
3. Profit

I don't understand why such large game studios delegate their work to contractors and just shrug their shoulders when the industry evolves. This is immensely dumb. ZoS needs to center their efforts around their customer's real experience. Just get it done. Now. Do it.

It can't be money or expertise or the ambiguity of Apple's plans this time. ZoS has no excuse they're just being milk drinkers.