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Update Racial Passives Please
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
.....
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Because a PvP focused, lore as an afterthought combat team threw a bunch of racial passives in a hat, handed them out and then when only Bosmer and Argonian were left, handed each of them the wrong leftovers.
They stated in the patch notes that they wanted each race to be unique, so no stealth for both Khajiit AND Bosmer. Yet they give stamina racials to several races, magicka buffs to multiple others, etc. But why they would swap the resistances (poison for disease) and invalidate whole in-game quests and blocks of text and lines of dialogue is inexplicable. Clearly a case of poor planning and not considering the ramifications of the choices. And they have yet to go back and change any of the narrative to fit their new racial vision, almost a year later.
Edited by Jaraal on December 7, 2019 7:24PMRIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.7 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.0 -
Aptonoth✭✭✭✭✭All races should give the same bonus. I am sick of being punished for liking different things. Argonian who wants to dps.5
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.7 -
Aptonoth✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.
Racial abilities like the ones in ES don't work in ESO all they do is punish people and force them to play meta races or they can't play the ones they like. Ever since playing ESO I've been a big proponent of removing them or making all of them completely equal for all races this way the people who want to play a specific race with a specific role can finally do so and not be sub-par. Does it make lore sense? No but honestly a lot in this game doesn't and its just here for the MMO. I think this is one of those times it has to be done.2 -
DarkPicture✭✭✭✭✭Why should all races give equal bonuses? What's the purpose of af race if they all had the same bonuses?
And most importantly, you can play anything with any race, it's not like 250 spell damage will break your game play, especially if you care about being an orc shaman
if u play pve stamina u need to be orc or just dont play as stamina. So...0 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
"So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great."
Oh, wow, here we go. Because posting stats from Arena is somehow proof that you're not wrong. Ok, sure.
"I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?"
Because in ESO they would be next to useless. You haven't provided any reason why they SHOULD be reflected in ESO other than the fact that you're complaining that they aren't like the single player games.
"Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games"
Again, why do the Altmer passives have to reflect passives from a single player game? What is not lore-friendly about a passive named 'Spell Recharge' for a spellcasting race?
"The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome."
Yes, exactly. Just like in every other MMO, races have bonuses that distinguish them from other races. There is nothing strange or out of the ordinary here.
"Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?"
Again, why does every racial passive from every TES game have to be reflected in this MMO for the races to be lore friendly?
"Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making."
Yeah, but that's not the argument YOU are making, my dude. You've sat there complaining that Bosmer are not specifically thieves and they are now guards (whatever that is supposed to mean). They are meant to be good at certain aspects of the game, as previously mentioned, and there is nothing that would indicate that Wood Elves are now 'bad at sneaking'. High Stamina and Stam regen means that they will be able to sneak longer than other races. High Stamina increases Bow damage and High Stam regen is conducive to Bow use over a longer period of time. Stealth detection is in line with the races amenity to Hunting and/or Tracking. And I've already conceded that the dodge roll penetration passive is whack, but that's the best one you've got.
"In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso."
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?Edited by Kahnak on December 7, 2019 7:54PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.
Racial abilities like the ones in ES don't work in ESO all they do is punish people and force them to play meta races or they can't play the ones they like. Ever since playing ESO I've been a big proponent of removing them or making all of them completely equal for all races this way the people who want to play a specific race with a specific role can finally do so and not be sub-par. Does it make lore sense? No but honestly a lot in this game doesn't and its just here for the MMO. I think this is one of those times it has to be done.
However, it worked just fine for four years, and how many people complained about them? A new team decided they wanted to change things around for the sake of change. None of this discussion would be taking place (for the last 10 months) if they had left well enough alone. Yet, here we are. And the curious changes just keep on coming, the boards are getting filled with protests about all the changes, and who knows what other surprises are still in store for those who stick around.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Why should all races give equal bonuses? What's the purpose of af race if they all had the same bonuses?
And most importantly, you can play anything with any race, it's not like 250 spell damage will break your game play, especially if you care about being an orc shaman
if u play pve stamina u need to be orc or just dont play as stamina. So...
But you don't have to be orc to play Stamina. People play orc because it provides the largest mathematical advantage, but that doesn't mean that skill isn't also a factor. I don't understand why people think playing a certain race automatically makes you meta or even good at the game. The skill gap in this game is larger than a racial passive gap could ever be, so unless you're in a score running group that is trying to optimize, you should be able to play whatever you want to play. No one is forcing you to play Orc.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like races not being simply cosmetic as they are in other games such as GW2 and SWTOR (although I feel it made sense in SWTOR) and I’m not someone who min-maxes and chooses based on meta (informed by it, sure, but I’d never play a vampire, for instance, no matter if it was totally OP). It can be interesting to play against type as well and find ways to incorporate different strengths into something unique.
I care more about the racial bonuses fitting with the majority of TES lore than being completely balanced. That is why it bothers me that Bosmer no longer receive any bonus to stealth when obviously they should. It makes no sense to say that Khajiit needed to be the only ones with the bonus to be unique as it is the blend rather than one specific bonus that makes each unique — or it should be. And definitely Argonians should be resistant to both disease and poison to fit with lore as well.
And yes, some abilities from the single player games might not transfer well into an MMO but I’m not asking for my Bosmer to be able to call the forest to fight for them, just to have their stealth bonus back.4 -
Aptonoth✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.
Racial abilities like the ones in ES don't work in ESO all they do is punish people and force them to play meta races or they can't play the ones they like. Ever since playing ESO I've been a big proponent of removing them or making all of them completely equal for all races this way the people who want to play a specific race with a specific role can finally do so and not be sub-par. Does it make lore sense? No but honestly a lot in this game doesn't and its just here for the MMO. I think this is one of those times it has to be done.
However, it worked just fine for four years, and how many people complained about them? A new team decided they wanted to change things around for the sake of change. None of this discussion would be taking place (for the last 10 months) if they had left well enough alone. Yet, here we are. And the curious changes just keep on coming, the boards are getting filled with protests about all the changes, and who knows what other surprises are still in store for those who stick around.
I haven't played that long an likely won't since this game is so *** broken now. I want to play but the servers are just so *** right now. Server finder, in game server, pvp zones. This game is quickly becoming as buggy as Fallout 76. Makes me think they foisted the 76 "programmers" on us. I can't say I've ever seen such bad programmers in my life with such a unique way of destroying good things.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Araneae6537 wrote: »I care more about the racial bonuses fitting with the majority of TES lore than being completely balanced. That is why it bothers me that Bosmer no longer receive any bonus to stealth when obviously they should.
Agreed. Not every player is a meta chasing stat micromanager. Some of us rolled wood elves because we liked the sneaky, one-with-nature forest assassin style of play we were used to in other games. So to take away our core identity and replace it with a PvP only passive that nobody wanted or asked for (sets with stealth detection are decon trash that don't even sell on traders) is just adding insult to injury.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.11 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Wrong. Zos threw out lore as they felt like it.
What lore supports non stealthy Bosmer and Argonians without immunity?#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom8 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
"So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great."
Oh, wow, here we go. Because posting stats from Arena is somehow proof that you're not wrong. Ok, sure.
"I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?"
Because in ESO they would be next to useless. You haven't provided any reason why they SHOULD be reflected in ESO other than the fact that you're complaining that they aren't like the single player games.
"Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games"
Again, why do the Altmer passives have to reflect passives from a single player game? What is not lore-friendly about a passive named 'Spell Recharge' for a spellcasting race?
"The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome."
Yes, exactly. Just like in every other MMO, races have bonuses that distinguish them from other races. There is nothing strange or out of the ordinary here.
"Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?"
Again, why does every racial passive from every TES game have to be reflected in this MMO for the races to be lore friendly?
"Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making."
Yeah, but that's not the argument YOU are making, my dude. You've sat there complaining that Bosmer are not specifically thieves and they are now guards (whatever that is supposed to mean). They are meant to be good at certain aspects of the game, as previously mentioned, and there is nothing that would indicate that Wood Elves are now 'bad at sneaking'. High Stamina and Stam regen means that they will be able to sneak longer than other races. High Stamina increases Bow damage and High Stam regen is conducive to Bow use over a longer period of time. Stealth detection is in line with the races amenity to Hunting and/or Tracking. And I've already conceded that the dodge roll penetration passive is whack, but that's the best one you've got.
"In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso."
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
Yes I show reasons why the racials are not reflected in lore because of;JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
And;JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I have shown examples from previous games AND in ESO why the racials are badly done. You challenged me to show proof and I have multiple times. And your response is that it’s an mmo so it should be different? Are you serious? What does that have to do with anything?
This is an elder scrolls game, based in the elder scrolls universe. If they want to make a game based on that universe maybe they should actually base it on what happens in that universe. When I go see a Star Wars movie Wookiees should be brave fighters not scared diplomats because someone could not be bothered caring about that universes lore.
And just because you can’t come up with any arguments for your statements does not make you entitled to start name calling.
Edited by BlueRaven on December 7, 2019 8:21PM6 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
A lot of words about something you don't know about. What you are saying is that ZOS should ignore lore of previous games if they see fit. Veterans of TES who come to play ESO instead of other MMORPGs did it exclusively because of wonderful lore single player games had and we don't like when that lore is twisted for marketing reasons. But of course it's your right to disagree, but don't put your opinion as an axiom. Unlike Blue Raven you provided zero facts about your point, you just saying you are right because you are saying it, lol. And you ignore facts that argonians are poison resistant and bosmers are talented thieves even in ESO lore.
And here look at this thread and amount of support gathered until that thread was locked because of trolls (89 pages! this is easily one of the most popular threads of this year):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459007/wood-elf-bosmer-losing-stealth-passive-an-open-letter/p1
So if you are ok when lore is sacrificed for gameplay reasons to encourage race change tokens sales, there is ton of people here who disagree, and disagree with bullet-proof facts. Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago.
9 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.
They never said they would not revisit racial passive ever again so to do so would not be back pedaling. Racial passives were the first step they took into this long dark path of reworking combat. It would make zero sense and be rather absurd to keep "tweaking" these passives during this process as everything is changes significantly.
You are also ignoring that Zos intended for multiple races to be worthy of magicka builds, several for stamina, and several for hybrids, but not all for everything which is the direction of OP's suggestion.
Lore is not very relevant as OP is not interested in lore. OP is not interested in lore as they are not supporting their suggestion with lore. Bringing that up seems to be grasping at straws in a manner that makes zero sense.1 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just for you, let’s forget the single player games and 25 year old IP which are the main draw for ESO.
In THIS game, in ESO itself, for 5 years and ongoing, the in-game text currently says that Bosmer are stealthy and Argonians are poison resistant and yet the combat team removed those attributes.
Now show your work and try not to name-call.
Edit: this didn’t appear under the right person.Edited by max_only on December 7, 2019 8:36PM#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom5 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
A lot of words about something you don't know about. What you are saying is that ZOS should ignore lore of previous games if they see fit. Veterans of TES who come to play ESO instead of other MMORPGs did it exclusively because of wonderful lore single player games had and we don't like when that lore is twisted for marketing reasons. But of course it's your right to disagree, but don't put your opinion as an axiom. Unlike Blue Raven you provided zero facts about your point, you just saying you are right because you are saying it, lol. And you ignore facts that argonians are poison resistant and bosmers are talented thieves even in ESO lore.
And here look at this thread and amount of support gathered until that thread was locked because of trolls (89 pages! this is easily one of the most popular threads of this year):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459007/wood-elf-bosmer-losing-stealth-passive-an-open-letter/p1
So if you are ok when lore is sacrificed for gameplay reasons to encourage race change tokens sales, there is ton of people here who disagree, and disagree with bullet-proof facts. Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago.
"A lot of words about something you don't know about. What you are saying is that ZOS should ignore lore of previous games if they see fit."
I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion, because you obviously didn't read what was said, nor did you take the whole reply in context. I'm saying that aspects of a single player game are not compatible with an MMO - it doesn't take posting elements of a 25 year old game to figure that out.
"Veterans of TES who come to play ESO instead of other MMORPGs did it exclusively because of wonderful lore single player games had and we don't like when that lore is twisted for marketing reasons."
This must be more of those bullet-proof facts you referenced. It's really interesting that you have 'veterans' and 'exclusively' paired together as if this statement is somehow definitive in any way, or as if to imply that I must not be a veteran of TES because I don't agree with you. Yep, super bullet-proof.
" Unlike Blue Raven you provided zero facts about your point, you just saying you are right because you are saying it, lol. And you ignore facts that argonians are poison resistant and bosmers are talented thieves even in ESO lore."
I love how both of you are pretending that Bosmer stats from a 25 year old game are somehow proving anyone wrong. How am I ignoring argonians are poison resistant and bosmers are talented thieves even in ESO lore.? Please tell me. Is it because I stated that each race has 4 racial attributes and there are racial passives that are more relevant than others or was it the part about 'Thieves', 'Scouts' and 'Archers' being an actual class archetype that you could choose in every TES game up until Skyrim? I guess you missed that part. Strange how half of the races seem to be excellent thieves in their TES race description in every game. I mean, if you think that the inclusion of 50% poison resistance is more important than a resource stat increase, by all means, but you should probably be playing one of the single player TES titles instead.
"And here look at this thread and amount of support gathered until that thread was locked because of trolls (89 pages! this is easily one of the most popular threads of this year):"
Look at all of the support gathered, but it got shut down because of trolls? Doesn't seem like that much support if you were getting trolled so hard that the thread got shut down. Lol
[b]
"So if you are ok when lore is sacrificed for gameplay reasons to encourage race change tokens sales, there is ton of people here who disagree, and disagree with bullet-proof facts.
Yeah, I'm ok when 50% Poison Resistance is 86ed in favor of something more valuable and relevant to this MMO. You got me.
Just another 'If you don't agree with my position then you are a shill' post with nothing constructive to add.
"Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago."
If you want to pretend that ignoring feedback on Racial Passives Bosmer is even marginally responsible, that's cool, but you'd be ignoring the larger and much more persistent issues that actually keep people from playing the game. I mean, this is still about Bosmer - it's not even about racial passives as a whole.
I'm going to be laughing about "Bullet-Proof facts" all day. Thanks for the chuckle.Edited by Kahnak on December 7, 2019 8:58PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"1 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭No. Stop these stupid threads about this. You can still play your High Elf stam character if you want.1 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭i just want my argonian's healing done to be doubled as well. It's not fair that all other races have their power based on set bonuses power, and while the set bonus of healing done went from 2% to 4%, argonian remained at 6% instead of 12%, or split it 6% done 6% received idc just give the deserved buff
Yeah I hear ya. My Argonian is a Nightblade Tank so im kinda relying on the crazy heals NB's can do. It might have been left that way due to the potion passive. If im wrong then im not sure.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago.
It is easy to toss out such statements but difficult find anything that backs it up.
Considering the several months of decline base on the only metric (Steam Charts) we can see happened well after the racial passives were changes it seems to be a huge stretch to make the claim I quoted above. With the decline in server performance and what seems to be a clear sign from the forums players are experiencing change fatigue it seems other factors are lining up better with those months of decline than the racial passives.
In other words, changes to the skills we use and server performance are more likely factors to population changes in the game than race passives.Edited by idk on December 7, 2019 10:34PM0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Tbh. The only race they should change (update / buff, whatever) are Wood elves & Argonians.
In Wrathstone they were balancing racials according to gear set peace bonuses. Argonians ended up with 6% more healing (live mender passive) in the end, but later on they updated gear set bonus:
Adds 2% Healing -> Adds 4% Healing
If Zenimax is all about standardization and balancing, then it means that Argonians should also get more healing done, since gear set bonus that they were using as a measurement in balancing got doubled in effectiveness (just because it was uselessly weak).
So Argonians should either get twice of that 6% -> 12% (since gear set bonus got doubled) or at least 10%.
I agree with argonians. It should be 10% and in line with the ritual mundas.
This would make argonians OP. Only change I think that should be made is either change Khajit to 1200 in all 3 stats or change the bonus back to crit.
nope, is only correct for argonian. Warrior mundus for example gives u equal to orc passive. Why not ritual mundus give equal to argonian passive? Khajiit is in a good place rn, balanced fine enough to not be changed anything.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I've trimmed out a bunch here, obviously.If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here.
I just want to point out this is false.
In the written lore, Bosmer ARE explicitly called out as being thieves, and it is in fact a central part of their culture: it's called the Rite of Theft. This is why Altmer have long established outposts in Valenwood; they took advantage of the Rite of Theft to get the land for those settlements. Additionally there is a part of the main questline in Greenshade that is centered around the Rite. There is nothing as well established for Khajiiti culture. Absolutely there are a lot of famous Khajiiti thieves in the lore, but there are as many Bosmeri ones.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago.
It is easy to toss out such statements but difficult find anything that backs it up.
Considering the several months of decline base on the only metric (Steam Charts) we can see happened well after the racial passives were changes it seems to be a huge stretch to make the claim I quoted above. With the decline in server performance and what seems to be a clear sign from the forums players are experiencing change fatigue it seems other factors are lining up better with those months of decline than the racial passives.
In other words, changes to the skills we use and server performance are more likely factors to population changes in the game than race passives.
I just know that there was abundance of raids in the spring, even before Elsweyr and after July leaked patch notes that abruptly ended with ton of people quitting. And I didn't said that it was because of racial passives, I said it began with racial passives. ZOS stopped listening to the people (other then for PVP nerfs)... of course impact of racials was minimal, because most popular races were kept alright, i.e. altmers, bretons, dunmers, nords, khajiits. But then ZOS nerfed magsorcs and group healing despite all community precautions
There were so many ground breaking changes in U22-U23-U24 with obvious imbalanced things thrown to game.. I don't believe that stupid people can work at ZOS to do that occasionally. This changes were done on purpose. Purpose to sell tokens, adventure edition, Elsweyr, necromancer and then guild skill lines. I think nobody thinks it is coincidence when guild skill lines become OP and in the same patch they are starting to be sold in crown store?
So first they stepped on lore in U21, then they nerfed DK and NB in U22 probably to make people switch to necro... then they nerfed magsorcs and buffed guild skill lines in U23, then they nerfed it all back in U24 because power creep in U23 was crazy. What will be next? P2W? We already have soft version of one in this patch in form of that pet with extra inventory.. yeah it is just inventory slots, but they are unobtainable other then from CS or CS gift, so it is not pure cosmetics, it is cosmetics with unique bonus. So when that person above started claiming that devs can do whatever they want with ESO just because why not... well, population dropped 1.5 times in comparison to spring and 10% drop in comparison to last year. I love this game, I don't want it to die, so my opinion devs should listen to community (like all facts gathered in bosmer thread or detailed feedback of top healers after U23 leak) or next year there will be even less players to play with.1 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.
Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.
It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.
I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.
Obviously. You missed the point where Zos has commented they are not interested in making any tweaks while the current process is going on.
And at that it goes against the grain of their stated approach to the racial passives. You seemed to miss both points.
They've backpedaled on many hastily implemented changes, so it's not unreasonable to think they could make small tweaks to racials as well, if they wanted. And even if they weren't interested in changing anything, it still doesn't make it right, still doesn't fix broken in-game lore, and still doesn't mean we as players have to "move on" and forget about it.
Exactly. I haven't 'missed' anything.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »JamuThatsWho wrote: »No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.
High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.
Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.
With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.
Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.
Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.
I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.
I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.
•••
Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.
(Hopefully I got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Thieves...hmmm.
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Thieves again...
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Skill Bonuses
Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
Skill Bonuses
Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10
Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)
Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)
And I should just as well mention;
Elder Scrolls Online (original description)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.
Morrowind;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor
High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion
Oblivion;
Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor
High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10
Skyrim;
Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)
High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?
Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?
And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).
Disagree? Show your work.
"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."
That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.
It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.
Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?
Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.
Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.
Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.
There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.
"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"
Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.
"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."
Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.
Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.
So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.
I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.
I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?
Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?
Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.
https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png
Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?
And I love this bit;
“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“
Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.
The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.
In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.
The other games are not MMO's and they are not multiplayer games. That design philosophy was not adopted because it's not compatible with the MMO game format.
You're obviously just a Bosmer fanboy who doesn't like the MMO format who has chosen to nitpick other races to make it seem like he's not only upset about Bosmer. Is it really + 5 stealth and poison resistance that's breaking this game for you?
Just a year ago game was much more active and now it is on decline... of course there are multiple reasons of this, but ignoring player feedback on racial passives was just a beginning, after ZOS started butchering classes with massive nerfs to DKs, NBs and even sorcs which led to half-empty rosters of guild which were flourishing just half-year ago.
It is easy to toss out such statements but difficult find anything that backs it up.
Considering the several months of decline base on the only metric (Steam Charts) we can see happened well after the racial passives were changes it seems to be a huge stretch to make the claim I quoted above. With the decline in server performance and what seems to be a clear sign from the forums players are experiencing change fatigue it seems other factors are lining up better with those months of decline than the racial passives.
In other words, changes to the skills we use and server performance are more likely factors to population changes in the game than race passives.
I just know that there was abundance of raids in the spring, even before Elsweyr and after July leaked patch notes that abruptly ended with ton of people quitting.
Elsweyr is U22 which launched in the middle of May. U21 from February as when Zos did the race passive pass. Race passives (the focus of this thread) was five months before you suggest the players left in mass so I do not see how the two are related. That was my point.0 -
Kuratius✭✭✭I agree that Argonians and maybe Bosmer are currently in need of a buff. For Argonians, the idea to buff their healing passive back up seems like a good spot. Changing their potion passive to synergize with that is an option, but not necessary.
One my favorites was changing the potion passives to a 10-20 % multiplicative potion CDR and allowing argonians to grant a small amount of resources (similar to imperial passive, except on healing instead of damage) to the user or targets healed.Edited by Kuratius on December 8, 2019 2:37AM1
