Update Racial Passives Please

Cundu_Ertur

idk wrote: »

Pretty sure I recall Zos stating earlier this year they would not revisit racial passives during the current process of reworking combat. It would not make sense to constantly revisit it during the process.

Second, based on both the comments Zos made leading into U21 and the end effect it is clear Zos intended to provide us more worthy choices for builds, including hybrids, but they were not interested in homogenizing.

It is clear from Zos' statements and actions with U21 they wanted multiple race choices for mag build, stam builds, and hybrid builds. But were not interested in making all race choices good for all areas in the manner OP is suggesting. I think the approach Zos made works well for the game.

I don't think many people are asking for a whole-sale revamp, just some tweaks.

MartiniDaniels

Udrath wrote: »

4

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

What's the point of this? Double SD/WD bonus won't increase their dps to topl level, altmer still will be poor for stamdps and orc still poor for magdps. Breton will become OP in PVP with imminent consequent nerf.
Probably worst suggestion on racial passives I've ever seen.

Because the third tier serves no point if you want to play an altmer stamina or orc magicka. These races are limited to their playstyles to strictly magicka or stamina, but not both. These are suggestions that have very little impact, so what's the harm? And explain how 7% stamina reduction will make breton OP?

1. breton is already BiS in PVP magicka, reducing cost on stamina (i guess this will apply to roll-dodge, block etc) will do nothing good and in the same time breton still will be much weaker for stamina builds then pure stamina races
2. you need to apply this to all races, not only to this 3... for example bosmer should have then both 258 stamina/magicka recovery, dunmer and khajiit should be buffed because now they are slightly weaker because their stats are distributed etc.. this will create such problems with balance unless you totally overhaul all system
3. ESO most valuable asset is lore, implementing such changes goes against all we knew about TES universe for 30 years.
4. Proposed changes won't change anything in PVE and for PVP current racial passives are completely ok. Both altmer, breton and orc are extremely good races for all game modes right now, why change something that is already good? Races who require tweaks are bosmers, argonians, khajiits, redguards, imperials. Nord, dunmer, breton, orc and altmer are already good and different polls showed that mains of this races are overall satisfied with changes.

My main reason for this suggestion is out of all the passives the altmer one does not benefit a stamina user unless they wear Pelinal's Aptitude or something. Where as bosmer passives are not terrible for PVP as magicka. The other races as well still get decent benefits from all of their passives as both magicka and stamina. A breton would be saving maybe 1k stamina every 4 break frees in a no-cp environment.

Bosmer's passives are terrible for magicka. To make most of bosmer's passives you must fight in melee range and roll-dodge on cooldown, which you can't afford on magicka toon. Also it is almost must have to use bow, so your roll-dodge always grants you major expedition as well, and you can't use bow on magicka hybrid toon unless with Pelinal's aptitude..

Ok, I agree that changes to double SD/WD for altmer/orc won't give much balance problems, but they will make dunmer race completely pointless, so you need to overhaul at the very least dark elves too..

So again proposed changes will bring a lot of concerns and complains from other races and in the same time players who want to use stam bretons and magicka orcs still will be underdogs in comparison to pure stamina or pure magicka races.

To make ESO closer to TES games where race almost doesn't matter in end game, devs need to completely overhaul everything, unify penetration, unify crit chance, remove damage/healing from max stamina and max magicka and make that damage/healing tooltip is determined exclusively by SD/WD... they will never do anything like that.

Sergykid

i just want my argonian's healing done to be doubled as well. It's not fair that all other races have their power based on set bonuses power, and while the set bonus of healing done went from 2% to 4%, argonian remained at 6% instead of 12%, or split it 6% done 6% received idc just give the deserved buff

Udrath

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

4

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

What's the point of this? Double SD/WD bonus won't increase their dps to topl level, altmer still will be poor for stamdps and orc still poor for magdps. Breton will become OP in PVP with imminent consequent nerf.
Probably worst suggestion on racial passives I've ever seen.

Because the third tier serves no point if you want to play an altmer stamina or orc magicka. These races are limited to their playstyles to strictly magicka or stamina, but not both. These are suggestions that have very little impact, so what's the harm? And explain how 7% stamina reduction will make breton OP?

1. breton is already BiS in PVP magicka, reducing cost on stamina (i guess this will apply to roll-dodge, block etc) will do nothing good and in the same time breton still will be much weaker for stamina builds then pure stamina races
2. you need to apply this to all races, not only to this 3... for example bosmer should have then both 258 stamina/magicka recovery, dunmer and khajiit should be buffed because now they are slightly weaker because their stats are distributed etc.. this will create such problems with balance unless you totally overhaul all system
3. ESO most valuable asset is lore, implementing such changes goes against all we knew about TES universe for 30 years.
4. Proposed changes won't change anything in PVE and for PVP current racial passives are completely ok. Both altmer, breton and orc are extremely good races for all game modes right now, why change something that is already good? Races who require tweaks are bosmers, argonians, khajiits, redguards, imperials. Nord, dunmer, breton, orc and altmer are already good and different polls showed that mains of this races are overall satisfied with changes.

My main reason for this suggestion is out of all the passives the altmer one does not benefit a stamina user unless they wear Pelinal's Aptitude or something. Where as bosmer passives are not terrible for PVP as magicka. The other races as well still get decent benefits from all of their passives as both magicka and stamina. A breton would be saving maybe 1k stamina every 4 break frees in a no-cp environment.

Bosmer's passives are terrible for magicka. To make most of bosmer's passives you must fight in melee range and roll-dodge on cooldown, which you can't afford on magicka toon. Also it is almost must have to use bow, so your roll-dodge always grants you major expedition as well, and you can't use bow on magicka hybrid toon unless with Pelinal's aptitude..

Ok, I agree that changes to double SD/WD for altmer/orc won't give much balance problems, but they will make dunmer race completely pointless, so you need to overhaul at the very least dark elves too..

So again proposed changes will bring a lot of concerns and complains from other races and in the same time players who want to use stam bretons and magicka orcs still will be underdogs in comparison to pure stamina or pure magicka races.

To make ESO closer to TES games where race almost doesn't matter in end game, devs need to completely overhaul everything, unify penetration, unify crit chance, remove damage/healing from max stamina and max magicka and make that damage/healing tooltip is determined exclusively by SD/WD... they will never do anything like that.

I have no doubt they'd be underdogs but they would be slightly more viable than they are now though. Concerning dark elves, I think their passives are good considering they nearly have 2k max magicka and stam. And bosmer magblade is not that complicated. You can play destro/resto no problem, and it does play best with a typical get in and out playstyle that the other magicka oriented races do better but not by a huge difference. The extra 250 stamina recovery is noticeable.

MartiniDaniels

Udrath wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

4

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

What's the point of this? Double SD/WD bonus won't increase their dps to topl level, altmer still will be poor for stamdps and orc still poor for magdps. Breton will become OP in PVP with imminent consequent nerf.
Probably worst suggestion on racial passives I've ever seen.

Because the third tier serves no point if you want to play an altmer stamina or orc magicka. These races are limited to their playstyles to strictly magicka or stamina, but not both. These are suggestions that have very little impact, so what's the harm? And explain how 7% stamina reduction will make breton OP?

1. breton is already BiS in PVP magicka, reducing cost on stamina (i guess this will apply to roll-dodge, block etc) will do nothing good and in the same time breton still will be much weaker for stamina builds then pure stamina races
2. you need to apply this to all races, not only to this 3... for example bosmer should have then both 258 stamina/magicka recovery, dunmer and khajiit should be buffed because now they are slightly weaker because their stats are distributed etc.. this will create such problems with balance unless you totally overhaul all system
3. ESO most valuable asset is lore, implementing such changes goes against all we knew about TES universe for 30 years.
4. Proposed changes won't change anything in PVE and for PVP current racial passives are completely ok. Both altmer, breton and orc are extremely good races for all game modes right now, why change something that is already good? Races who require tweaks are bosmers, argonians, khajiits, redguards, imperials. Nord, dunmer, breton, orc and altmer are already good and different polls showed that mains of this races are overall satisfied with changes.

My main reason for this suggestion is out of all the passives the altmer one does not benefit a stamina user unless they wear Pelinal's Aptitude or something. Where as bosmer passives are not terrible for PVP as magicka. The other races as well still get decent benefits from all of their passives as both magicka and stamina. A breton would be saving maybe 1k stamina every 4 break frees in a no-cp environment.

Bosmer's passives are terrible for magicka. To make most of bosmer's passives you must fight in melee range and roll-dodge on cooldown, which you can't afford on magicka toon. Also it is almost must have to use bow, so your roll-dodge always grants you major expedition as well, and you can't use bow on magicka hybrid toon unless with Pelinal's aptitude..

Ok, I agree that changes to double SD/WD for altmer/orc won't give much balance problems, but they will make dunmer race completely pointless, so you need to overhaul at the very least dark elves too..

So again proposed changes will bring a lot of concerns and complains from other races and in the same time players who want to use stam bretons and magicka orcs still will be underdogs in comparison to pure stamina or pure magicka races.

To make ESO closer to TES games where race almost doesn't matter in end game, devs need to completely overhaul everything, unify penetration, unify crit chance, remove damage/healing from max stamina and max magicka and make that damage/healing tooltip is determined exclusively by SD/WD... they will never do anything like that.

I have no doubt they'd be underdogs but they would be slightly more viable than they are now though. Concerning dark elves, I think their passives are good considering they nearly have 2k max magicka and stam. And bosmer magblade is not that complicated. You can play destro/resto no problem, and it does play best with a typical get in and out playstyle that the other magicka oriented races do better but not by a huge difference. The extra 250 stamina recovery is noticeable.

Lack of 500+ spell power is noticeable too I think

Kahnak

I'll concede that Bosmer's stealth detection racial is a little whack.

However, the way that they have the races set up is consistent with every other ES game in the series. Bretons and Altmer have never gotten bonuses for a 'warrior' archetype and neither have Orc or Redguard ever gotten bonuses for a 'wizard' archetype. There are reasons established in the lore for many of these decisions - Redguard and Altmer come to mind immediately. Racial passives aren't preventing you from playing against the archetype, it's just preventing you with keeping up with the meta. There are more options for Stam and Magicka in the game now than there have ever been. Not to mention that if they decided to change racial passives less than a year after their previous adjustment they would probably lose another chunk of the player base.

JobooAGS

Kahnak wrote: »

I'll concede that Bosmer's stealth detection racial is a little whack.

However, the way that they have the races set up is consistent with every other ES game in the series. Bretons and Altmer have never gotten bonuses for a 'warrior' archetype and neither have Orc or Redguard ever gotten bonuses for a 'wizard' archetype. There are reasons established in the lore for many of these decisions - Redguard and Altmer come to mind immediately. Racial passives aren't preventing you from playing against the archetype, it's just preventing you with keeping up with the meta. There are more options for Stam and Magicka in the game now than there have ever been. Not to mention that if they decided to change racial passives less than a year after their previous adjustment they would probably lose another chunk of the player base.

In Skyrim, redguards got a bonus to destruction magic

TheShadowScout

Udrath wrote: »

Elemental Talent
Rank III - Unlocked at Altmer (High Elf) 50
Increases your Spell Damage by 258
This should also increase Weapon Damage by 258

Nope, high elves are good with magic, lorewise, not swords.

Udrath wrote: »

Rank III - Unlocked at Orsimer (Orc) 50
Increases your weapon damage by 258
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%
This should also increase Spell Damage by 258

Nope, orcs are strong, lorewise, not magically inclined.

Udrath wrote: »

Rank III - Unlocked at Breton 50
Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%
This should reduce the cost of both magicka and stamina abilities by 7%

Nope, bretons inherited the magical aptitude from their elf blood, not any physical advantage.

Udrath wrote: »

There are orc shamans in game and a orc holding a staff in ESO related artwork. There is a high elf getting knocked off a cliff using a sword in the Summerset cinematic and High Kinlord Rilis uses a two-handed sword. The Breton assassin in the cinematic who rerolled necromancer never seems to have sustain problems with stamina or magicka. Fits the lore and will make these races more viable in other departments and isn't game breaking.

Nah, just because a race had an edge in one field does NOT mean everyone in that race will specialize in that firld, nor does anyone of that race specializing in a differenr field mean they somehow changed their racial abilities. They just had to work a bit harder to get to the same point then a race that has an advantage in that particular field...

Vildebill wrote: »

Why should all races give equal bonuses? What's the purpose of af race if they all had the same bonuses?

Exactly.

It has -always- been a part of TES lore that some races are better at some things... redguards are good with the physical, altmer good with the magical, orcs strong and tough, bosmer small and agile, argonians a little amphibic, nords tough and good in snow and ice, etc.

People really ought to make -choices- rather then demans they get "candoitall" options...

Vildebill wrote: »

And most importantly, you can play anything with any race, it's not like 250 spell damage will break your game play, especially if you care about being an orc shaman

Yeah.

IF anything, then we could add a new set of passives that could support people in "play as they like" ways... like:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442350/character-background-passives

karthrag_inak

Udrath wrote: »

Yes, server performance should be priority but these racial passives should be updated.

Elemental Talent
Rank III - Unlocked at Altmer (High Elf) 50
Increases your Spell Damage by 258
This should also increase Weapon Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Orsimer (Orc) 50
Increases your weapon damage by 258
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%
This should also increase Spell Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Breton 50
Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%
This should reduce the cost of both magicka and stamina abilities by 7%


There are orc shamans in game and a orc holding a staff in ESO related artwork. There is a high elf getting knocked off a cliff using a sword in the Summerset cinematic and High Kinlord Rilis uses a two-handed sword. The Breton assassin in the cinematic who rerolled necromancer never seems to have sustain problems with stamina or magicka. Fits the lore and will make these races more viable in other departments and isn't game breaking. The rest of the races are fine.

Thanks for reading! Feel free to comment.

cut the bonuses in half, and then they can be hybrids too.

/khajiit

Kahnak

JobooAGS wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'll concede that Bosmer's stealth detection racial is a little whack.

However, the way that they have the races set up is consistent with every other ES game in the series. Bretons and Altmer have never gotten bonuses for a 'warrior' archetype and neither have Orc or Redguard ever gotten bonuses for a 'wizard' archetype. There are reasons established in the lore for many of these decisions - Redguard and Altmer come to mind immediately. Racial passives aren't preventing you from playing against the archetype, it's just preventing you with keeping up with the meta. There are more options for Stam and Magicka in the game now than there have ever been. Not to mention that if they decided to change racial passives less than a year after their previous adjustment they would probably lose another chunk of the player base.

In Skyrim, redguards got a bonus to destruction magic

What is your point? Are you going to add to the discussion or are you just here for the 'Well Actually'?

Vhozek

If you have low IQ but are physically very strong, should god give you more IQ just cause you wanna be a mathematician?
Dealing with the hand you're dealt is way more interesting than shutting down the diverse differences between races and it would honestly make the game boring.
Orc shamans have no magicka but they still wanna be shaman. Too bad, they won't be as good as someone with magicka. They're better off being warriors or even athletes but there's nothing wrong with being whatever they want. Just understand they won't be the best at everything.

JobooAGS

Kahnak wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

I'll concede that Bosmer's stealth detection racial is a little whack.

However, the way that they have the races set up is consistent with every other ES game in the series. Bretons and Altmer have never gotten bonuses for a 'warrior' archetype and neither have Orc or Redguard ever gotten bonuses for a 'wizard' archetype. There are reasons established in the lore for many of these decisions - Redguard and Altmer come to mind immediately. Racial passives aren't preventing you from playing against the archetype, it's just preventing you with keeping up with the meta. There are more options for Stam and Magicka in the game now than there have ever been. Not to mention that if they decided to change racial passives less than a year after their previous adjustment they would probably lose another chunk of the player base.

In Skyrim, redguards got a bonus to destruction magic

What is your point? Are you going to add to the discussion or are you just here for the 'Well Actually'?

Well my stance is that while racials are going in the step in the right direction, there are a few slight problems (bosmer stealth being one, redguard being pigeonholed another, orc being bis for nearly everything stam related is another) which is unrelated to my comment yes. Mag races I am quite happy with how they turned out.

Kahnak

"Well my stance is that while racials are going in the step in the right direction, there are a few slight problems (bosmer stealth being one, redguard being pigeonholed another, orc being bis for nearly everything stam related is another) which is unrelated to my comment yes. Mag races I am quite happy with how they turned out."

Considering that Breton is the Magicka equivalent of a Redguard and Altmer is the Magicka equivalent of Orc, I'm curious as to why you're ok with the Magicka races but have a contention with Stam races? (With the exception of Bosmer)

MartiniDaniels

Kahnak wrote: »

"Well my stance is that while racials are going in the step in the right direction, there are a few slight problems (bosmer stealth being one, redguard being pigeonholed another, orc being bis for nearly everything stam related is another) which is unrelated to my comment yes. Mag races I am quite happy with how they turned out."

Considering that Breton is the Magicka equivalent of a Redguard and Altmer is the Magicka equivalent of Orc, I'm curious as to why you're ok with the Magicka races but have a contention with Stam races? (With the exception of Bosmer)

They are not equivalent. Cost reduction on weapon skills is not the same as cost reduction on everything magical. Also bretons got a hefty spell resistance on top while redguards got questionable in efficiency snare reduction. Snares work rather harsh in this game you either have snare removal/immunity or you don't, there is rare situation where "slightly less snared" instead of "snared" will change anything.

BlueRaven

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.

High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.

Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.

With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.

Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.

Kahnak

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

"Well my stance is that while racials are going in the step in the right direction, there are a few slight problems (bosmer stealth being one, redguard being pigeonholed another, orc being bis for nearly everything stam related is another) which is unrelated to my comment yes. Mag races I am quite happy with how they turned out."

Considering that Breton is the Magicka equivalent of a Redguard and Altmer is the Magicka equivalent of Orc, I'm curious as to why you're ok with the Magicka races but have a contention with Stam races? (With the exception of Bosmer)

They are not equivalent. Cost reduction on weapon skills is not the same as cost reduction on everything magical. Also bretons got a hefty spell resistance on top while redguards got questionable in efficiency snare reduction. Snares work rather harsh in this game you either have snare removal/immunity or you don't, there is rare situation where "slightly less snared" instead of "snared" will change anything.

It is a rough equivalent, but it is still an equivalent. Redguard is the Stam Sustain race and Breton is the Magicka sustain race. There are no races that have universally identical passives for their Magicka or Stamina counterpart, so I'm not understanding the necessary distinction you're making between Redguard and Breton when the same petty distinctions can be made between Orc and Altmer. That doesn't make them not equivalent in purpose, simply because they don't share identical racial passives.

Kahnak

BlueRaven wrote: »

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.

High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.

Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.

With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.

Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.

Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.

LoneStar2911

Nyladreas wrote: »

The purpose is aesthetics and freedom. If you don't understand that then I got nothing more to add.

Yes.
Freedom > Lore.
Yep, I said that.

I'm sure ZOS could make all of the races viable for stamina and magicka builds. I'd like to see more racial passives to choose from for each race! But just because something is "viable" doesn't mean it's the best choice. And just because there's new racials doesn't mean you have to put skill points into them.

Giving players more freedom in character options wouldn't hurt a thing. In fact, it may even make some of us quite happy. I think it sounds like a fantastic idea.

BlueRaven

Kahnak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.

High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.

Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.

With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.

Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.

Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.

I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.

I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.

•••

Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.

Morrowind;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

Oblivion;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

Skyrim;

Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.

Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?

Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?

Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?

And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

Disagree? Show your work.

richo262

Udrath wrote: »

Yes, server performance should be priority but these racial passives should be updated.

Elemental Talent
Rank III - Unlocked at Altmer (High Elf) 50
Increases your Spell Damage by 258
This should also increase Weapon Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Orsimer (Orc) 50
Increases your weapon damage by 258
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%
This should also increase Spell Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Breton 50
Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%
This should reduce the cost of both magicka and stamina abilities by 7%


There are orc shamans in game and a orc holding a staff in ESO related artwork. There is a high elf getting knocked off a cliff using a sword in the Summerset cinematic and High Kinlord Rilis uses a two-handed sword. The Breton assassin in the cinematic who rerolled necromancer never seems to have sustain problems with stamina or magicka. Fits the lore and will make these races more viable in other departments and isn't game breaking. The rest of the races are fine.

Thanks for reading! Feel free to comment.

The Breton version of stamina is Redguard. If they were both dual Stam/Mag then neither race would be unique.

If anything the Orc needs to be a hybrid like Dunmer / Kitteh

EP
Nord - Stam focus (Tank orientated)
Lizard - Mag focus (potion unique, also good for tanking/healing)
Dunmer - Hybrid (flat damage increase)

AD
High elf - Mag focus (flat damage)
Wood elf - Stam focus (stam regen)
Kitteh - Hybrid (crit damage)

DC
Breton - Mag focus (mag cost reduction)
Redguard - Stam focus (stam cost reduction)
Orc - Stam focus (flat damage, heals)

DC is missing a hybrid. Imperial also should be a hybrid.

Tommy_The_Gun

Sergykid wrote: »

i just want my argonian's healing done to be doubled as well. It's not fair that all other races have their power based on set bonuses power, and while the set bonus of healing done went from 2% to 4%, argonian remained at 6% instead of 12%, or split it 6% done 6% received idc just give the deserved buff

Exactly what I was saying earlier. The Healing bonus Argonians get from their passives is based on gear set bonus.
Gear set was buffed from 2% to 4%, so it was doubled in effectiveness. Argonias as you too have said also should received
6% -> 12% or 6% +6% splited healing done & received.
#Consistency

Other thoughts:
It is simply weird that a gear set bonus focused on healing (4% healing) is at least twice as weak (or possibly even more) as for example spell / weapon dmg bonus or max stat attribute bonus.

Those increase strength of your skills and also your healing. So If we have a gear set bonus that increase ONLY your healing it should be superior, as it does only that. It does not increase your dmg output.

Raisin

Amber322 wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

The purpose is aesthetics and freedom. If you don't understand that then I got nothing more to add.

Yes.
Freedom > Lore.
Yep, I said that.

I'm sure ZOS could make all of the races viable for stamina and magicka builds. I'd like to see more racial passives to choose from for each race! But just because something is "viable" doesn't mean it's the best choice. And just because there's new racials doesn't mean you have to put skill points into them.

Giving players more freedom in character options wouldn't hurt a thing. In fact, it may even make some of us quite happy. I think it sounds like a fantastic idea.

You have the freedom. They made racial passives a lot more option-friendly when they changed it so now it really is just a matter of minmaxing. Your choices are in no way restricted.

Kahnak

BlueRaven wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.

High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.

Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.

With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.

Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.

Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.

I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.

I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.

•••

Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.

Morrowind;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

Oblivion;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

Skyrim;

Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.

Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?

Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?

Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?

And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

Disagree? Show your work.

"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."

That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.

It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.

Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?

Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.

There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.

"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"

Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.

"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."

Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.

Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.

Iskiab

Udrath wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh. The only race they should change (update / buff, whatever) are Wood elves & Argonians.

In Wrathstone they were balancing racials according to gear set peace bonuses. Argonians ended up with 6% more healing (live mender passive) in the end, but later on they updated gear set bonus:

Adds 2% Healing -> Adds 4% Healing

If Zenimax is all about standardization and balancing, then it means that Argonians should also get more healing done, since gear set bonus that they were using as a measurement in balancing got doubled in effectiveness (just because it was uselessly weak).

So Argonians should either get twice of that 6% -> 12% (since gear set bonus got doubled) or at least 10%.

I agree with argonians. It should be 10% and in line with the ritual mundas.

This would make argonians OP. Only change I think that should be made is either change Khajit to 1200 in all 3 stats or change the bonus back to crit.

Imryll

Araneae6537 wrote: »

What isn’t lore friendly is Bosmer having no bonus to stealth. That breaks with long tradition in TES games as well as the replacement passive being pretty useless.

*Edited for typos

What is also lore unfriendly is altmer not having a mag regen bonus. Bretons getting cost reduction and resistance vs. other races getting regen and slightly more mag or spell power or flexibility was balanced conceptually even if the numbers needed some tweaking in order to make the magicka races equally desirable in ESO. Also, Argonians should resist poisons. Some changes are inevitable when adapting a single-player franchise for use in an MMO, but the most recent round of changes seems, at least in part, disrespectful of the game's roots.

BlueRaven

Kahnak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Kahnak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

No, racials are grounded in each races' respective lore.

High Elves and Bretons are adept at Magicka, Redguards and Orcs are brawny and athletic warriors.

Dark Elves have always been balanced fighters, integrating Destruction, swordplay and bows.

With 10 races to choose from, and the flexibility of each class, there's no need whatsoever to homogenise everything.

Orc, Altmer, Nord, Bosmer, and Argonian racials are NOT lore friendly.

Where is your support for that statement? Saying something isn't a way doesn't make it not that way.

I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work.

I have went into many long posts about the problems with the racials and lore but here is a small sample.

•••

Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

(Hopefully I got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Thieves...hmmm.

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Thieves again...

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Skill Bonuses

Marksman +15
Sneak +10
Light Armor +10
Alchemy +5
Acrobatics +5


Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



Skill Bonuses

Acrobatics +5
Alchemy +10
Alteration +5
Light Armor +5
Marksman +10
Sneak +10


Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim



Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

And I should just as well mention;

Elder Scrolls Online (original description)



Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth. Now they are bad at stealing and have become guards.

Morrowind;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

Oblivion;

Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

Skyrim;

Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.

Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?

Wood Elves drink fermented meat for alcohol and in at least two ES games have disease resistance listed as a racial passive. And they give disease resistance to Argonians? Why?

Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?

And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

Disagree? Show your work.

"I like how when other people say "The Racial are lore friendly", they get a pass. But someone who disagrees has to show work."

That's because it is generally accepted knowledge and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which I'm not seeing here.

It seems that most of your contention is that the racial passives are not entirely consistent between the single player games and the MMO. Racial passives can be consistent with the lore and different from the single player games at the same time - they aren't mutually exclusive.

Wood Elves have a quest chain about being poisoned. And argonians have a quest chain that promotes being immune to poison. So they give poison resistance to Bosmers? Based on what?

Skyrim has the Bosmer with poison resistance based on your own screenshot. It's not included because two races have the same resistances, so they gave one to one and one to the other. Again, limit 4 racial passives and a completely different game format.

Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere.

There is nothing to indicate that 'Orcs don't like shields' simply because a shield buff isn't included in their racial passives. Orcs are still brawny warriors and Altmer are still masters of magic. Nothing you're saying here refutes that, neither is Orc ever pigeonholed in any game as a tank simply because they have a predilection to heavy armor in the previous single player games. Tanking roles do not exist in those games in the same way they exist in this game. Again, a contention with the format of the game - not the lore.

"Why are Nords tanks instead of viking bezerkers?"

Um, a lot of reasons? Viking berserkers do not exist in ESO. Nords are not a 'Viking' stereotype, but more based off of Scandinavian culture and not every Norse individual is a raging barbarian. You keep repeating the word 'tank' like it's supposed to be relevant to a discussion on racial bonuses, but this is the first ES game where there is an actual tanking role. Just because Nord passives are ideal for a tanking role does not automatically make Nords a tank.

"And again Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood)."

Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game. If we're being consistent with the lore, Khajiit are more inclined to be thieves. So you're just defeating your own argument here. Additionally, 'Thief', 'Scout' as well as 'Archer' were class archetypes that you could select in the single player games when creating a new character and has nothing to do with being a thief as a profession or having a predilection to actual thievery. Seeing as there is no Thief class in ESO, I feel like the explanation for that is pretty obvious.

Just because these racials are not what YOU feel like they should be does not mean they are not lore consistent. The racials not being identical from the single player ES games has an obvious explanation. Posting a bunch of screenshots is not 'showing work' and that is not what I said. I said, support your statement, which could have been done without all of the ancient stats you dredged up from a game created 25 years ago. Expecting the racial bonuses to be the same from Arena or Morrowind or expecting them not to be adjusted for the MMO game format is unrealistic and a little bit silly.

So you decided to not show any proof of your claims, just generalities of your feelings and with zero proof of your own. Great.

I am on the road so I am keeping this relatively short.

I show orcs having a block (ie sword and shield) and heavy armor bonus where is that reflected in eso?

Nords have bonuses to light (ie medium in eso, or rather dps) armor where is that reflected in eso?

Show me where altmer have odd off spec regen in any of the stand alone es games.

https://i.imgur.com/XvodYhE.png

Why is this not reflected in argonian racials?

And I love this bit;

“Wood elves are not specifically guards or thieves in the lore, just like in every other game, they have a general description and excel at certain aspects of the game.“

Beyond that they were never mentioned at being guards and the multiple mentions of stealth and thievery, your general argument that wood elves can be what ever they want is exactly the argument that the people who want the racials relooked at are making.

The problem with the racials in eso is that they are hardwired abilities or advantages that can never be overcome.

In the other es games all abilities were just headstarts down a particular path. By the time the player was deep into the game, race became irrelevant. That is the design philosophy they should have adopted on eso.

FlowOne

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

Why should all races gave equal bonuses? What's the purpose of af race if they all had the same bonuses?

And most importantly, you can play anything with any race, it's not like 250 spell damage will break your game play, especially if you care about being an orc shaman

They don't all have the same bonuses. There are just wasted talent points to invest into if you play a magicka orc or stamina high elf. The other races like argonians, dark elves, nords, khajiits, wood elves can play either stamina or magicka just fine and benefit from all of their passives regardless.

Stamina Argonian DD? Hehehehe, no.

Stamina argonians still good for pvp on classes (or builds) where u need mag pool and sustain, but ye a bit lack of dmg. Imo argonians must have extra 1k stam. Zos can even reduce resources back from pots to 3500-3700. And it will be good hybryd race like khajiit.

zaria

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t mind some races being particularly gifted in magicka or stamina pursuits. And it is after all only one part of the equation and you can make any race any class and role. I have an Altmer tank that I enjoy!

So in my opinion, it is lore friendly as it stands: These races have always had similar bonuses to these in TES games but of course it doesn’t mean that you can’t have a skilled Orsimer mage or Altmer archer.

What isn’t lore friendly is Bosmer having no bonus to stealth. That breaks with long tradition in TES games as well as the replacement passive being pretty useless.

*Edited for typos

The Bosmer lack of stealth is also stupid as stealth is pretty weak as an trait, useful in PvP and then stealing only.
Was only made to make Khajiit more unique, not needed as they are unique with the bonus to crit damage and hybrid nature.

Worse with the Argonian lack of poison resistance. This Bosmer got instead.
Even if you have an Argonian in Elsweyr who was able to rescue some Khajiit as he was more resistant to a poison than them.
Swap and then tweak if needed.

zaria

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t mind some races being particularly gifted in magicka or stamina pursuits. And it is after all only one part of the equation and you can make any race any class and role. I have an Altmer tank that I enjoy!

So in my opinion, it is lore friendly as it stands: These races have always had similar bonuses to these in TES games but of course it doesn’t mean that you can’t have a skilled Orsimer mage or Altmer archer.

What isn’t lore friendly is Bosmer having no bonus to stealth. That breaks with long tradition in TES games as well as the replacement passive being pretty useless.

*Edited for typos

The Bosmer lack of stealth is also stupid as stealth is pretty weak as an trait, useful in PvP and then stealing only.
Was only made to make Khajiit more unique, not needed as they are unique with the bonus to crit damage and hybrid nature.

Worse with the Argonian lack of poison resistance. This Bosmer got instead.
Even if you have an Argonian in Elsweyr who was able to rescue some Khajiit as he was more resistant to a poison than them.
Swap and then tweak if needed.

Jeremy

Udrath wrote: »

Yes, server performance should be priority but these racial passives should be updated.

Elemental Talent
Rank III - Unlocked at Altmer (High Elf) 50
Increases your Spell Damage by 258
This should also increase Weapon Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Orsimer (Orc) 50
Increases your weapon damage by 258
Reduces the cost of Sprint by 12% and increases the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 10%
This should also increase Spell Damage by 258

Rank III - Unlocked at Breton 50
Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%
This should reduce the cost of both magicka and stamina abilities by 7%


There are orc shamans in game and a orc holding a staff in ESO related artwork. There is a high elf getting knocked off a cliff using a sword in the Summerset cinematic and High Kinlord Rilis uses a two-handed sword. The Breton assassin in the cinematic who rerolled necromancer never seems to have sustain problems with stamina or magicka. Fits the lore and will make these races more viable in other departments and isn't game breaking. The rest of the races are fine.

Thanks for reading! Feel free to comment.

If you made all the bonuses apply evenly that would negate the purpose of racial characteristics to begin with. For example: High Elves are suppose to be better with spells and Orcs are suppose to be better with Weapons. If you made them both get bonuses to spell damage and weapon damage that would defeat the purpose to begin with and just make them both equal. At that point, you may as well just get rid of racial passives all together and make them a cosmetic feature.