A conversation about shortcuts and skipping things...

RaveRaveRaveRave

So on a couple (maybe a few) of my characters, I only need a few more achievements under the Veteran Dungeons category. Unfortunately those achievements are locked behind people skipping them. Like Kill 50 Flame Bone Colossus in City of Ash 2 and Kill 500 Obsidian Warriors in Fungal Grotto 2. Everyone runs and/or skips past those things. My DPS is very good, I can nuke those things pretty damn quick. I can understand skipping things if this is 5 years ago when these dungeons were actually challenging. I find it faster to kill everything than it is to do some of the methods used to skip things. Do you know how long I've waited for people to do "the jump" in Mazzatun or City of Ash 2? I probably could've killed all the things you are attempting to skip watching you try to jump up the wall. It's downright frustrating at times.

What about jumping off the waterfalls in Fungal Grotto 1? Are those two bosses too hard? Especially during an event when they drop plunder skulls...or if someone says they are looking for gear in the beginning of the dungeon, yet they skip easy AF bosses that I can kill in mere seconds. I'm usually tank when I play so if someone jumps off the side, I'll let them sit down there while I take my time getting to the end out of spite.

So what are your thoughts on skipping things and dungeon etiquette? If someone says they are looking for something, doing the quest, etc... I am a very considerate player towards that. I usually see if anyone is doing the quest even if they don't say it and I'll help them or wait for what needs to be done...

Guess I'm just getting tired of some of the more crappy players I've been dealing with...and I don't mean crappy as in skill-wise because I can carry that, I mean crappy as in attitude/gameplay.

Kel

As in all things pugging, you have to take what the GF gives you. All the complaints about low DPS, fake roles, and even skipping things, all can be alleviated by forming your own groups.

The group finder is a dice roll...you may get wonderful people who might do low DPS but want to learn...you may get elitist players who run ahead and act like the rest of the group are NPC's...it's random, and not just the content, but the players you're grouped with.

I understand players might not be available to run in thier own groups for a vast number of reasons. That doesn't change the fact that you're (in a general sense, not personally) never going to enforce or enact any kind of etiquette in Group Finder. You play the hand that's delt to you...that's just the reality. One that's stretched into every MMO that has this functionality.

The best solution to these problems remain in forming your own groups of like minded individuals.

Edit: This isn't me in any way, shape, or form defending these types of behaviors. This is me simply stating the reality of these situations and the futility of thinking there's some magical solution to solving player behavior in a random encounter.

Taleof2Cities

Kel wrote: »

As in all things pugging, you have to take what the GF gives you. All the complaints about low DPS, fake roles, and even skipping things, all can be alleviated by forming your own groups.

^Exactly this.^

If you need a specific outcome from a dungeon run, don't use the dungeon finder.

Find a pre-made group instead ... where players agree to clear achieves.

srfrogg23

I think skipping things is a sign that people have played the content far too many times. They should take a break. From the game. Maybe even gaming in general.

That's what I do when I run out of patience with even little things like spending a few seconds on some trash packs in dungeons.

Stebarnz

I get the content as fast as possible!

zyk

I think that once a game reaches a point when a player is skipping as much content as possible -- and therefore doing something they probably don't enjoy -- for the sake of more loot, it's time to rethink their relationship with the game.

At this point, is one playing because it's fundamentally fun or because they're conditioned by the endorphin rush of loot?

The most poignant example of this is when PVP is a factor in an event. It seems thousands of players subject themselves to something that makes them miserable for shiny holiday loot boxes -- which are basically addictive scratch cards, like crates.

CompM4s

Make and let them know you are farming or need quest. Ill usually skip stuff unless someone asks

Ruvalie

Speaking as a (sort of) new player, this happened to me when I did Fungal Grotto I for the first (well, second) time recently. I couldn't figure out how the other people jumped up onto where the last boss is after jumping down the waterfall, so I ended up mostly missing the fight after going up on the other side and killing the spiders or whatever by myself. I have no clue how I'm supposed to learn this, and I've stayed away from dungeons since then.

SirLeeMinion

I generally say, "Hello all, anyone questing or are we speed running?" By the time I get that typed after the loading screen, folks are usually attacking and killing (or being killed by) the first mob group. Sometimes people reply.

Overall, though, I find the shortcuts are okay if you maintain a sense of humor. For instance, you should always mount and use rapids at the end of CoA 2. The time you save speeding down and up the pathway allows you to type helpful comments for the guy that took a header into the lava. Blackheart haven... why wouldn't you skip the early mobs? That first boss inevitably kicks someone off the platform, and that person will wind up killing them for you anyway. You can banter in guild chat while they do it. Jumping the falls in FG1 is a tough call. I always suggest it if other group members are higher level. It's rare for people to reply, but if you hang back, sometimes the group will split, and then it's like a 'choose your own adventure.' Go with the tank, who jumped or help the DPS who is hacking at the dreugh mobs, what to do? what to do?

As others have said, if you are after achieves, form your own group. Because random people are, well, random.

richo262

They should make those sorts of achievements account wide. Then it wouldn't be such a pain to get those achievements. To be clear, it is not a pain because it is difficult, it is a pain because it is a lottery to get a group that is prepared to not skip. I do not blame groups for skipping past content, when most in the party are there to get there 2 undaunted keys they want to power through as fast as possible.

They could then go back to the higher requirements for skin unlocks if No Death / Time achieves were account wide. They nerfed it to simply, 'completed on vet' which is far too easy.

Leaving Completion and HM character based for the purposes of quest association, but moving the Speed / No Death and Kill X achievements to account wide would solve many of the problems.

zyk

richo262 wrote: »

They should make those sorts of achievements account wide. Then it wouldn't be such a pain to get those achievements. To be clear, it is not a pain because it is difficult, it is a pain because it is a lottery to get a group that is prepared to not skip. I do not blame groups for skipping past content, when most in the party are there to get there 2 undaunted keys they want to power through as fast as possible.

It doesn't have to be a lottery. You can find like-minded individuals to group with. The group finder should be a last resort, not the default option.

Pick up groups are supposed to suck just as it would suck in real life to be grouped with other people completely at random to complete a task.

Recent

You can't control the masses (pugs) but you can even ask here in player helping players for people interested in forming a group with you and working on those achieves...good luck

MartiniDaniels

Shortcuts/skips are for fun not for actual speed up

Dusk_Coven

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

What about jumping off the waterfalls in Fungal Grotto 1? Are those two bosses too hard?

Honestly I feel this is an exploit that ZOS should have fixed.
And the mentality is why the queue is so full of nonsense like fake roles and such -- people just want the daily reward and will find the shortest way to get it.

Unfortunately, ZOS is now tying in dungeon content with story progression. Just like putting books for people to read/find in a dungeon, it is a gross failure to recognize play patterns.

Zacuel

Well Ive skipped a lot of things and taken many shortcuts in life and look at me. I turned out great.

Fur_like_snow

If your goals don’t align with the other members of your group it’s unlikely they’ll do much beyond what is necessary to get their undaunted daily finished. Simple solution is to form your own group that way your goals are agreed upon from the beginning.

SirLeeMinion

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

...Unfortunately, ZOS is now tying in dungeon content with story progression. Just like putting books for people to read/find in a dungeon, it is a gross failure to recognize play patterns.

I was really disappointed by this; it's part of the reason I have not bought Dragonhold.

Kahmel

I used to be considerate and ask in group chat if people mind if I speed run but more often than not people of all levels just want to get the dungeon over with so I now start dungeons DPSing like I'm going for world records but if someone asks me to slow down I'll 100% slow down or if the other 3 are doing the quest and are waiting for NPC's to stop talking I'll stop and wait for them without complaint. I don't know if what I'm doing is still considered bad etiquette or some sort of grey area but I haven't had any complaints so far in fact I usually get thanked.

ProfessorKittyhawk

I wish they would add invisible walls to prevent skipping bosses like how they fixed porting to another dungeon and getting credit for doing the daily random. I was running a new toon on a new alt account through some dungeons and of course got stuck in a group that decided to skip bosses. Missed the 2 bosses before getting to the final boss in FG, and I hate how they made the Rat master boss in Wayrest 1 and the ghost boss in Wayrest 2 out of the way where you aren't forced to fight them because I STILL need those bosses. Very frustrating and annoying when you want the achievement for killing all the bosses.

And while leveling this new toon/account I did Vaults of Madness as a pledge and was doing the quest. Said as much at the beginning. After waiting for the npc's to stop talking after killing Grothdar... I get kicked from group. Really wish they could rework the older dungeons to let you talk to the npc's without having to wait for them to finish yammering.

RaveRaveRaveRave

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

I wish they would add invisible walls to prevent skipping bosses like how they fixed porting to another dungeon and getting credit for doing the daily random. I was running a new toon on a new alt account through some dungeons and of course got stuck in a group that decided to skip bosses. Missed the 2 bosses before getting to the final boss in FG, and I hate how they made the Rat master boss in Wayrest 1 and the ghost boss in Wayrest 2 out of the way where you aren't forced to fight them because I STILL need those bosses. Very frustrating and annoying when you want the achievement for killing all the bosses.

And while leveling this new toon/account I did Vaults of Madness as a pledge and was doing the quest. Said as much at the beginning. After waiting for the npc's to stop talking after killing Grothdar... I get kicked from group. Really wish they could rework the older dungeons to let you talk to the npc's without having to wait for them to finish yammering.

Exactly! You know, since I'm usually a tank and make people fight skippable things...do you know how many times I've heard "wow I never killed this boss before." or "Finally got that achievement after years."? Plus people are making new characters all the time and skipping things you have to kill for the skill point.

idk

Kel wrote: »

As in all things pugging, you have to take what the GF gives you. All the complaints about low DPS, fake roles, and even skipping things, all can be alleviated by forming your own groups.

Pretty much this.

Most complaints concerning GF is really about giving up control to randomness. Take that control back and solve by forming your own group with a specific purpose in mind. Guilds are great for this.

idk

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I think skipping things is a sign that people have played the content far too many times. They should take a break. From the game. Maybe even gaming in general.

Not at all. If we are doing either pledges, or random dungeon, or event clears we do not need to clear everything. So skipping stuff is hardly a sign someone has played the content to much.

Huyen

Stebarnz wrote: »

I get the content as fast as possible!

This is the biggest issue. People treating it like a job. "I need to complete this dungeon asap otherwise I fail at making more gold!" Dungeons (and the whole game) are meant to be enjoyed. Not rushed through.

SirLeeMinion

Sometimes rushing through is enjoying it.

I'm more than happy to wait for quest runners and dialogue listeners. I've helped low end DPS get their first good monster helm when it took fooooorever. But sometimes, it's a blast to just burn through all the mobs and emerge victorious in ten minutes.

phileunderx2

There is no need to skip anything in fg1. Hate the skippers.
More often then not they don't know how to get to the final boss without aggroing the crab boss. So just kill everything already.

Shawn_PT

ZOS should make it so that the last dungeon boss would not spawn unless ALL other enemies/trash mobs were dead Problem solved.

Fischblut

I can understand skipping things if this is 5 years ago when these dungeons were actually challenging. I find it faster to kill everything than it is to do some of the methods used to skip things. Do you know how long I've waited for people to do "the jump" in Mazzatun or City of Ash 2? I probably could've killed all the things you are attempting to skip watching you try to jump up the wall.

I hate skipping as well Back when I was doing lot of Falkreath Hold and Bloodroot Forge, I remember how frustrating it was to see the group trying (and failing shamefully) to skip three minotaurs at the door before the last boss, or mob packs before Galchobhar boss

There is no need to skip anything in fg1. Hate the skippers.
More often then not they don't know how to get to the final boss without aggroing the crab boss. So just kill everything already.

True! Especially with nerf to Major Expedition duration, swimming is very long, and many people are stuck when trying to climb to the last boss. Both side bosses could be killed in this time even on veteran, let alone on normal

srfrogg23

idk wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I think skipping things is a sign that people have played the content far too many times. They should take a break. From the game. Maybe even gaming in general.

Not at all. If we are doing either pledges, or random dungeon, or event clears we do not need to clear everything. So skipping stuff is hardly a sign someone has played the content to much.

You should take a break.

Stebarnz

Huyen wrote: »

Stebarnz wrote: »

I get the content as fast as possible!

This is the biggest issue. People treating it like a job. "I need to complete this dungeon asap otherwise I fail at making more gold!" Dungeons (and the whole game) are meant to be enjoyed. Not rushed through.

I enjoy speed.

Hapexamendios

Skipping stuff is fine provided everyone is on the same page. I find that people don’t communicate though and just take off on their own.

Tsar_Gekkou

If you want people to play exactly how you want, make your own group to do it. Problem solved. Grouping with randoms gives randoms result.