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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Please Consider Removing Levels From Gear
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Synnastix✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Level 15, two bars, monster set, two full 5-piece sets with proper glyphs and traits...the only thing missing would be skills and passives. Destroying noobs in BG's would so fun. ZOS how do we make this happen? Give me that Twink PVP!
Just crown store that stuff
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GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭Similarly but different. I would prefer if they removed the lvls from materials. There would be alot of benefits.
- newer players could gather and farm them to sell for gold.
- vets could have easier access to lowbie mats to help make gear for noobs.
- vets would have enough mats on hand to craft themselves gear for leveling toons.
just something like 1 rub material is 1-10, 2 is 20-30, continued0 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanks for the responses! I would argue that any established account with access to high level crafting and knowledge of the game is going to destroy the legitimately new under 50 PVP players, but I can see how players with monster helms and top level dropped sets will have more of an advantage. I think an argument could be made for accounts with CP being ineligible in PVP content intended for new players, period, considering the veteran players who take advantage of it right now.
On the other hand, in the PVE world, there is the difference between trashing all your gear drops from CP 159 down, since it all becomes useless, as opposed to having gear that can be used, which would actually help new players as they progress to more difficult content. Have many of you not experienced leveling a character and getting a fantastic drop, but having to destroy it because it was below CP160?
I am aware of the sense of progression in this sort of game, where the next level of gear is supposed to give the player a sense of increased power and progression, but the way level scaling works In this game, that is actually inverted, where players, especially newer ones, tend to feel progressively weaker as they level further.
I appreciate and respect everyone’s comments, and hope more folks will chime in, even if simply to dispute my suggestion.
Bro i had to destroy vr1 master's weapons, vr8 master weapons, vr 14 trial gear (gold jewelry not mat return ) and i still say no this would be wrong for the new players trying to enjoy pvp or bgs and takes away from the game yes the grind is part of the game we all done it so can the new players good thing for them all 5 of my master craftsmen are on ps4 to help them 😆 😆 😆1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Level 15, two bars, monster set, two full 5-piece sets with proper glyphs and traits...the only thing missing would be skills and passives. Destroying noobs in BG's would so fun. ZOS how do we make this happen? Give me that Twink PVP!
Just crown store that stuff
Sold! I'd hella dump crowns into making my monster sets scale off my alt's levels.0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a recently new player, I didn’t have a problem with gear drops. I was very focused on leveling up crafting on my main and so deconned everything I didn’t need and spent very little on gear, mostly just wearing drops, until CP160.0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
That was exactly why I used that as an example... because they tried to do the "no character levels" thing, only item levels and quality levels.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Addition to the above the gear level do give an illusion of rpg progression while leveling, at least for the first time.
Along with crafting progression, and the whole satisfaction of gaining quest rewards and dropped loot etc.
The OP's proposal would create a totally different game, and would wreck it for those who enjoy the whole leveling process in a MMORPG - with all their characters, not just the first one.
All the things the OP is concerned about are only pointless to those players whose idea of playing a game is to grind in one place for a few hours and then complain because they don't like this or that about the "endgame". They're the last people a game should be designed around.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
That was exactly why I used that as an example... because they tried to do the "no character levels" thing, only item levels and quality levels.
The problem with TSW as an example is, regardless how Funcom wanted to present it, it was a traditional MMO progression scheme. The only hickup was that your "level" was purely gear dependent. The major distinction being that the developers could lock your level based on the zone you were in. Ex: You couldn't reach QL7 running around Blue Mountain, because the gear drops stopped at QL7 (outside of the Lair, anyway.) So, it was impossible to "outlevel" the content, no matter how much you ground.
In contrast, ESO has a level agnostic system, where your level is basically irrelevant, and you can attempt whatever you want at whatever level you want. There is a degree of punishment inherent in the system. Because gear you get will decay and lose value as you progress.
There's also a real rough patch when you hit level 50, and graduate to CP10, as your stat adjustments for being a lowbie are gone, but you're also now at the weakest you'll ever be, as the game expects you to be in 160 gear, while you're scrambling around in level 50 (at best) gear.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭luizpaulom17 wrote: »So veteran's low level charecters can dominate under 50 Cyrodiil and low level BGs?!?! No, no, no sir.
Like U said, its fast to reach CAP level and 160, no point to change that!
One very easy solution for this.
Honestly, something that should probably be considered either way.
Instead of having sub-50, have "no Champion Points." And no, I don't mean CP are locked out, I mean, you cannot join this campaign or BG bracket if your account has any champion points. So, you can only run in the sub-50 bracket if you've never reached level 50 on your account.
What you're describing already happens. Not as severely as it would if these floodgates were opened, but it still occurs. Tying sub-50 to an account wide lockout would help with vet players who hit the lowbie BGs for easy achievements.
After that? Yeah, I can get behind the idea of stripping levels from gear, at least to some degree. In part because the gear decay system from leveling can create real pain points for new players. Especially as you're leveling through the champion points for the first time.0 -
Dread_Viking✭✭✭✭dont think its a good idear how ever i do think we need something like the heirloom gear from wowDon't worry girl I'm a Sorcerer, i got my Hardened Ward for protection0 -
Taloros✭✭✭✭Good idea.
I often find that new players are somewhat frustrated by the inability to collect meaningful gear. For example, it's very hard to collect a complete dungeon gear set before you outlevel the first pieces again.
Low-level gear is rarely available on guild stores, and the only real chance to get levelled gear is by crafting it, which many new players don't focus on - and should have to focus on ("Play as you want.").
These problems make it near impossible for new players to really experience a key aspect of ESO (gear). Having level requirements removed would end these problems.
Yes, "but pvp!!11".
New players will get stomped in PvP regardless of gear. Someday who's clocked 1000 h of ESO pvp doesn't need a monster set to completely outshine a new player that stumbled into a battleground without buff food, incomplete skill sets and white weapons.0 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dread_Viking wrote: »dont think its a good idear how ever i do think we need something like the heirloom gear from wow
We do.
It's called the training trait on gear, and gives a bonus to experience gain.0 -
Rittings✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think there is a valid argument for CP 10-140 gear (not 150, since that's the "poor person's 160 gear" - and also used for writs that won't cost you an absolute fortune in mats to make gear.
Those CP levels really do go so very quickly. You can get from 10-160 within a couple of hours, and so making gear at that level (or farming for it) is absolutely pointless... it also makes for a huge anti-climax of hitting CP for your first time when you become suddenly very much weaker until you can get yourself to 160 and legitimately start to farm gear...1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Addition to the above the gear level do give an illusion of rpg progression while leveling, at least for the first time.
Along with crafting progression, and the whole satisfaction of gaining quest rewards and dropped loot etc.
The OP's proposal would create a totally different game, and would wreck it for those who enjoy the whole leveling process in a MMORPG - with all their characters, not just the first one.
All the things the OP is concerned about are only pointless to those players whose idea of playing a game is to grind in one place for a few hours and then complain because they don't like this or that about the "endgame". They're the last people a game should be designed around.
The weird thing is, the leveling process would still be there if they removed character/item levels entirely. Levels have felt utterly meaningless to me since One Tamriel dropped. I really miss the old experience when level actually mattered and all content wasn’t scaled. Today we get this really bizarre thing of your weapons and character getting weaker as you level because of the scaling. The game would lose nothing by ditching levels for characters and gear while preserving the XP system for skills and skill point gains. And it would loose the wonky feeling weaker as you level, the frustrating gold penalties for low level characters, getting a neat drop that is worthless because it isn’t max level, etc.1 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's a good idea. The current system is fundamentally broken for actual new players anyway.
Levels are earned so quickly, it's not practical for new players to maintain 5 piece sets. This is especially true if they complete quests in multiple zones at a time. Level 1-49 sets are usually not reliably available via player traders.
Perhaps there should be two tiers of weapons and armor; one for levels 1-49 and another for 50+. This would reduce gear upgrade tedium and allow new and experienced players to more easily utilize sets on low level characters. I think there would actually be a sub-50 marketplace.1 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
That was exactly why I used that as an example... because they tried to do the "no character levels" thing, only item levels and quality levels.
The problem with TSW as an example is, regardless how Funcom wanted to present it, it was a traditional MMO progression scheme. The only hickup was that your "level" was purely gear dependent. The major distinction being that the developers could lock your level based on the zone you were in. Ex: You couldn't reach QL7 running around Blue Mountain, because the gear drops stopped at QL7 (outside of the Lair, anyway.) So, it was impossible to "outlevel" the content, no matter how much you ground.
In contrast, ESO has a level agnostic system, where your level is basically irrelevant, and you can attempt whatever you want at whatever level you want. There is a degree of punishment inherent in the system. Because gear you get will decay and lose value as you progress.
There's also a real rough patch when you hit level 50, and graduate to CP10, as your stat adjustments for being a lowbie are gone, but you're also now at the weakest you'll ever be, as the game expects you to be in 160 gear, while you're scrambling around in level 50 (at best) gear.
You are trying way too hard to nit-pick my comment.0 -
Karmen✭✭✭Yes but we need a new system, completely reviewed, with monster set for lvl50+ only.I am Carmen.
For Bosmers, war is only a sport0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
That was exactly why I used that as an example... because they tried to do the "no character levels" thing, only item levels and quality levels.
The problem with TSW as an example is, regardless how Funcom wanted to present it, it was a traditional MMO progression scheme. The only hickup was that your "level" was purely gear dependent. The major distinction being that the developers could lock your level based on the zone you were in. Ex: You couldn't reach QL7 running around Blue Mountain, because the gear drops stopped at QL7 (outside of the Lair, anyway.) So, it was impossible to "outlevel" the content, no matter how much you ground.
In contrast, ESO has a level agnostic system, where your level is basically irrelevant, and you can attempt whatever you want at whatever level you want. There is a degree of punishment inherent in the system. Because gear you get will decay and lose value as you progress.
There's also a real rough patch when you hit level 50, and graduate to CP10, as your stat adjustments for being a lowbie are gone, but you're also now at the weakest you'll ever be, as the game expects you to be in 160 gear, while you're scrambling around in level 50 (at best) gear.
You are trying way too hard to nit-pick my comment.
No, I'm telling you, your example is flat out wrong.0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PvP probably wouldn't be a factor in balance - I remember when people said selling mage guild would *DESTROY* low level BG's?
As for the gear thing though...
However, what would you do with crafting? Transmute ALL mats into one? It would essentially destroy the game economy along with it as rare mats would explode. People would go from 1K of a top mat to essentially 20K of the "best" mat.
1-50 should have levels and its fine if you outgrow gear. I replace mine maybe once on alt <Level 1 training -> Level 30 training>. When I was leveling though I would tend to save sets.
I do agree there should be a change in gear levels, but only that to remove 1-160 CP from gearing. It seems kind of counter for an Alternate Progression to hit "Max" level, to be told, ohh wait you not actually max level, and the gear? Yup, still useless to start to farm BIS.Edited by karekiz on November 1, 2019 1:43PM0 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭luizpaulom17 wrote: »So veteran's low level charecters can dominate under 50 Cyrodiil and low level BGs?!?! No, no, no sir.
Like U said, its fast to reach CAP level and 160, no point to change that!
That's dumb, they would not dominate at all.0 -
Xologamer✭✭✭✭First off, the idea had a huge negative effect in under 50 PvP as it makes it even easier for players who have been around for awhile to have BiS gear from the start. The idea literaly tells new players they are not welcome in PvP when they first start the game.
Second. as OP even says, the time from 0 to 50 is so short. Because of that it is not that big of a deal to have to deal with gear levels. Heck, when leveling in PvE just wear what drops.
So the conclusion is there is no real benefit to the game to make such a change. It should be left as it is.
there is no under 50 pvp xd campain is always empty
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Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Plus, they want to sell their level 50 boosters in the future, because it's $enimax we're talking about here.
Zos already has done this with the double XP events - The event tickets in the Crown Store - Crown Store event themed items for sale - And those big juicy Xp scrolls in the Casino Crates.
You don't think they did all that work for those Events and Casino Crates for nothing, did you?
OP, it is so easy to get to 160Cp for the gear cap that there is no point to this thread. You would kill the whole grinding aspect of the game and cost Zos a great loss in revenue.
If all gear was the same most people wouldn't bother to play as much as they do and probably would avoid most of the events all together. Hurting Zos's current business model severely. They want players playing the game and spending money.
The xp events and daily rewards scrolls, and the major xp scrolls in the Crown Crates are the lvl 50 boosters they have added. All day 1 players and long term players know this.
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Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good thread, and it's nice to see (mainly) respectful and thoughtful responses in a constructive manner.
The only rebuttable that keeps coming to my mind is the dev hours argument. I would rather them spend their time on fixing performance and bugs rather than the overhauling gear leveling system. With that being said (and not considering the fallout from PvP), I think it's a decent idea. It would help free up some inventory space for gear I only wear for a few hours to level up new characters.
Edit: After I wrote this it occurred to me.... I guess theoretically I would still need to keep that low level training gear, or new gear, (the level part would be obsolete if this change happened) as I still need gear with the training trait on it to level up. So, no real inventory space reduction I suppose.Edited by Donny_Vito on November 1, 2019 2:24PM0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »
That was exactly why I used that as an example... because they tried to do the "no character levels" thing, only item levels and quality levels.
The problem with TSW as an example is, regardless how Funcom wanted to present it, it was a traditional MMO progression scheme. The only hickup was that your "level" was purely gear dependent. The major distinction being that the developers could lock your level based on the zone you were in. Ex: You couldn't reach QL7 running around Blue Mountain, because the gear drops stopped at QL7 (outside of the Lair, anyway.) So, it was impossible to "outlevel" the content, no matter how much you ground.
In contrast, ESO has a level agnostic system, where your level is basically irrelevant, and you can attempt whatever you want at whatever level you want. There is a degree of punishment inherent in the system. Because gear you get will decay and lose value as you progress.
There's also a real rough patch when you hit level 50, and graduate to CP10, as your stat adjustments for being a lowbie are gone, but you're also now at the weakest you'll ever be, as the game expects you to be in 160 gear, while you're scrambling around in level 50 (at best) gear.
You are trying way too hard to nit-pick my comment.
No, I'm telling you, your example is flat out wrong.
Ok. This is obviously very important to you.
I'm not going to "correct" my post, but I acknowledge that you think you're making important distinction.0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Of course, all gear *is* already level 160, of sorts. It gets auto-levelled, and the 1-50 gear is mostly an inventory nuisance. I bet many people do what I do and craft 1-50 gear and 'prepare' new characters by donating cash to them for inventory space and quickly logging them for mount speed.
And I kind of agree with OP, but also with the person earlier in the thread that said it gave the 'sense of progression' (something along those lines).
Truth is that RPGs in general seem to be going through an evolution (this is from my very limited perspective) where the old-school style of levelling where you would level up and get better and find better level gear (which was often just the same stuff but with a different number in the description) is more and more abandoned.
IMO good riddance. It sucked anyway, especially in games like Oblivion, where highwaymen and common bandits would suddenly start wearing glass and daedric armor because you were high level (not to mention level-locked unique quest rewards).
ESO started out with the classic progression system; get better stuff, have quests be levelled so you could do them earlier or later than intended, etc.
Then, in their infinite wisdom, ZOS realised what others have before:
That system is a steaming pile of dung.
Slight hyperbole.
A system where the character gets better works pretty well in a single-player 'journey' game, where you visit new areas, get to explore more parts of the world, have character progression, and usually an actual ending. Character progression is meaningful as you can take on more difficult challenges, and there is a reason to 'train' your character. You don´t really need levelled items to do this though, anyway.
It doesn´t work well at all in ESO. Never did. Who here remembers 'grey' quests?
Which is why the Champion system is for many the only meaningful way to improve your character. Skills are maxed fairly quickly, and your character doesn´t really get better by increasing the skills anyway, unlike in games like Skyrim. You just unlock passives and ranks etc, but everyone is at the exact same level soon enough. Of course you can gold out gear etc but this can be done through simple grinding, and the difference is quite miniscule.
Truth is ESO is slowly being destroyed by this, for many of us. I finished the Dragonhold questline a few days ago and that´s it for my subscription. The boss fights, while harder than previous ones, are still tutorial level events. And of course, while some characters like Clan Mother Tadali were pretty great, most of the DLC was a bunch of cringeworthy clichés.
"Lets get ancient relic to stop ritual also dragons, more dragons and dragonguard relic armor. Also ritual and relic and crystal and dragon. The End".
ZOS realised power creep is a problem - not so much that it makes stuff obsolete as that it makes everyone a god within a few weeks of what is supposed to be a long-term project. It´s signing up for a marathon, then running for 10 minutes before hitting a giant queue consisting of the other runners, and finally standing still indefinitely.
Really what they should do is IMO;
- Get rid of gear level including the giant material requirement leap from crafting CP150 and CP160. There is at least some purpose to the levelling system for skills, since new players get introduced to new skills at a steady pace rather than having it all dropped right on top of you. There is no reason to keep the levelling for items. None. (I am going to count 'forcing inventory clutter and then selling inventory space for crowns' as 'no reason'). EDIT: I didn´t consider monster masks etc, however those are basically 'CP level' gear and so it should not be hard to make a distinction.
-Redesign the CP system and get rid of the cap, but keep the diminishing returns. If balancing is an issue, put in a cap for trials and PvP that doesn´t apply to non-leaderboard content. Easy enough, put in a warning when you exceed the cap and have the stats number change colour for points that exceed it. Solved it inbe4 complaint that it can´t be done.
-Implement difficuly levels. I´m not gonna discuss again how to do it, we know it can be done and it isn´t hard.
This would at least give people a reason to grind if they chose to, it would give the option to make things more challenging, and it would get rid of some of the nuisance that is inventory management.Edited by MaleAmazon on November 1, 2019 2:58PM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvP probably wouldn't be a factor in balance - I remember when people said selling mage guild would *DESTROY* low level BG's?
There is a valid point there, though. If you removed levels from gear entirely, and let people take monster sets and farmed drop sets into lowbie BGs, the result would be pretty brutal.
That said, this is already an issue. Just taking in crafted sets into sub-50 BGs already screws up the balance. So does farming specific skill lines at low levels (including Mage's Guild), and then dumping that on newbies has an unfortunate effect on the community.
Again, I think the solution is probably to hard lock players out of the newbie PvP after they've started earning CP, but that's a different discussion (though it dovetails with this.)As for the gear thing though...
However, what would you do with crafting? Transmute ALL mats into one? It would essentially destroy the game economy along with it as rare mats would explode. People would go from 1K of a top mat to essentially 20K of the "best" mat.
1-50 should have levels and its fine if you outgrow gear. I replace mine maybe once on alt <Level 1 training -> Level 30 training>. When I was leveling though I would tend to save sets.
I do agree there should be a change in gear levels, but only that to remove 1-160 CP from gearing. It seems kind of counter for an Alternate Progression to hit "Max" level, to be told, ohh wait you not actually max level, and the gear? Yup, still useless to start to farm BIS.
The big problem, currently, with tiered gear is, we end up telling people, "don't start farming until your CP160." People go out, they start trying to put together a build, and everyone who knows what they're doing is like, "no, don't do that, you'll screw yourself over in the long term." It's unfortunate.
As for mashing material tiers together, it kinda doesn't matter. Materials drop based on a 50/50 split of your current level and your crafting level. So, when you're trying to farm ore, Rubidite isn't any more rare than Iron.
So, it would be possible to jettison levels from gear a lot more easily than you might think. I do agree that, at least, the first five tiers of materials should survive. But, I'm inclined to think that should be more of an item modifier system (like trait stones), rather than a clear power progression curve.1 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a valid point there, though. If you removed levels from gear entirely, and let people take monster sets and farmed drop sets into lowbie BGs, the result would be pretty brutal.
I edited my earlier post since I didn´t think about that; but monster masks are pretty much the one offender there, no? Confession - I got solo emperor in sub-50 PvP by having crafted partly gold Twice-born Star and Hunding´s. Since I didn´t have a guild I wanted to improve my chances as much as I could. But the experience some people had facing me might have put them off PvP permanently. Sorry about that - without a guild I needed to max my chances. Then again, those of us who have played sub-50 PvP know that it is not a newbie PvP zone. Unfortunately.
I think the only way to save newbie PvP (which doesn´t really exist at the moment to be honest) is to have a newbie-only zone. Like you said, locking CP accounts out might be an option. Other options might be to only have a limited time (say 100 hours) in a newbie-only campaign.
But when I think about it these are not good solutions. I might want to play sub-50 PvP with friends who play far less and are less proficient at the game. I might be really bad at PvP.
What ESO lacks is a zone where people can play to learn PvP. Just try it, without being insta-killed. Kind of like a mini-Cyrodiil. What ZOS have done is introduce PvP events, which has basically backfired and the only thing many newbies learn is 'PvP is ganking and horse riding, nothanksbye'.
I don´t really know how to best accomplish newbie PvP though. But I would guess adding a new newbie mode might help. Say an 'ethereal arena' where you could revive all the time, there were no leaderboards, and stats were the same for all players. Might be a start.Edited by MaleAmazon on November 1, 2019 3:29PM0
