Uppercut

Chilly-McFreeze

Rahar wrote: »

Nicalas wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

It only pushed out other options because ZOS wrecked bleed builds and snb skill line. What other stamina build options existed? The only class with a remotely unique kit is stamplar. They have delayed burst, class stun, and a melee spammable. No other class has these things. You had 3 build options bleeds, snb weave, dizzy. Two of them were removed in a previous patch. Dizzy wasn't overpowered they just destroyed any competition in the previous patches.

How about stamina gets spammables that aren't ranged? I don't wanna throw rocks, call pigeons, or launch flaming skulls. We want to swing our weapons and slash opponents. How about we make an useful stamina ultimate. Dawnbreaker is easier to block than Meteor and Onslaught needs to follow burst and a cc. There is nothing else. Dual Wield ult is a dot that can be dodged and purged. Ballista can be los'd, dodged, blocked, cloaked. It's not as simple as slotting turn evil. The skill is ridiculously expensive, does no damage. It's basically a wasted GCD. If you can't kill a Magplar or Magsorc in 2 GCD's they are gonna fully heal and melt your face.

There's a lot of bad points and hyperbole here, but I'll try and tackle everything.

The only stamina skills that were really toned down recently is heroic slash and puncture, which arguably had the same problem as dswing; it pushed a lot of other options out because it offered good damage, great utility, and both defense as well as offense.

You forgot that they nerfed DW by changing bleeds. Up until that point 3 out of 3 melee stamina weapon lines had viable offensive builds, just like Nic mentioned. They hit bleeds, many DW players swapped to SnB and 2h. They gutted SnB and people were left with only one good option. Of course people flocked to that. Now that every line is nerfed, we've come full circle, everything is equal as in equally worse than before.

The new dswing still hits hard (2h is still ludicrously strong as a weapon line)

2h now neither have a knockback, root or snare or inherent stun anymore. Great design for a weapon line which main spam is a selfcanceling channel with backend dmg. But fair game, they shortened the cast time and tinkered with the dmg trice in 3 patches. BTW I just need to move a few meters backward for my Crit Rush to deal more damage than DS (non crit) now. Isn't that great? Time to nerf it, I guess.

, and dual wield has always been somewhat good.

"Has been". In your first sentence you forgot that Hidden Blade was transformed from a spam into an utility skill (-25% dmg, +27% cost). Rending fell out of the picture (now even in PvE) when they changed bleeds and delayed the first tick. Now another nerf to it. Flurry has always been clunky. Cloak is still good after the nerf, especially with OP blackrose DW. Tornade is an issue of it's own. Ultimate is worthless.
So please tell my what exactly makes it a good frontbar choice for classes without inherent spam?

Magicka uses elemental weapon as a spammable in a lot of cases. There's a stamina morph of this. Now you just won't get your stun, your damage, and your spammable all in one. It's something that will take a little adjusting to, but overall is a good direction for the game, and stamina dswing builds have finally joined the party.

Have you used it? Doesn't sound like it otherwise you'd know how clunky it is to use on a melee build in PvP. Especially when lag kicks in.

I wanted to skip the other parts. But DB lost users bc of the cast time, not bc of the tiny change to dmg. And meteor into Cage or Streak isn't that hard. to pull of.

kalunte

@Chilly-McFreeze your complain sounds like a cheese hunt..

Rahar

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Nicalas wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

It only pushed out other options because ZOS wrecked bleed builds and snb skill line. What other stamina build options existed? The only class with a remotely unique kit is stamplar. They have delayed burst, class stun, and a melee spammable. No other class has these things. You had 3 build options bleeds, snb weave, dizzy. Two of them were removed in a previous patch. Dizzy wasn't overpowered they just destroyed any competition in the previous patches.

How about stamina gets spammables that aren't ranged? I don't wanna throw rocks, call pigeons, or launch flaming skulls. We want to swing our weapons and slash opponents. How about we make an useful stamina ultimate. Dawnbreaker is easier to block than Meteor and Onslaught needs to follow burst and a cc. There is nothing else. Dual Wield ult is a dot that can be dodged and purged. Ballista can be los'd, dodged, blocked, cloaked. It's not as simple as slotting turn evil. The skill is ridiculously expensive, does no damage. It's basically a wasted GCD. If you can't kill a Magplar or Magsorc in 2 GCD's they are gonna fully heal and melt your face.

There's a lot of bad points and hyperbole here, but I'll try and tackle everything.

The only stamina skills that were really toned down recently is heroic slash and puncture, which arguably had the same problem as dswing; it pushed a lot of other options out because it offered good damage, great utility, and both defense as well as offense.

You forgot that they nerfed DW by changing bleeds. Up until that point 3 out of 3 melee stamina weapon lines had viable offensive builds, just like Nic mentioned. They hit bleeds, many DW players swapped to SnB and 2h. They gutted SnB and people were left with only one good option. Of course people flocked to that. Now that every line is nerfed, we've come full circle, everything is equal as in equally worse than before.

The new dswing still hits hard (2h is still ludicrously strong as a weapon line)

2h now neither have a knockback, root or snare or inherent stun anymore. Great design for a weapon line which main spam is a selfcanceling channel with backend dmg. But fair game, they shortened the cast time and tinkered with the dmg trice in 3 patches. BTW I just need to move a few meters backward for my Crit Rush to deal more damage than DS (non crit) now. Isn't that great? Time to nerf it, I guess.

, and dual wield has always been somewhat good.

"Has been". In your first sentence you forgot that Hidden Blade was transformed from a spam into an utility skill (-25% dmg, +27% cost). Rending fell out of the picture (now even in PvE) when they changed bleeds and delayed the first tick. Now another nerf to it. Flurry has always been clunky. Cloak is still good after the nerf, especially with OP blackrose DW. Tornade is an issue of it's own. Ultimate is worthless.
So please tell my what exactly makes it a good frontbar choice for classes without inherent spam?

Magicka uses elemental weapon as a spammable in a lot of cases. There's a stamina morph of this. Now you just won't get your stun, your damage, and your spammable all in one. It's something that will take a little adjusting to, but overall is a good direction for the game, and stamina dswing builds have finally joined the party.

Have you used it? Doesn't sound like it otherwise you'd know how clunky it is to use on a melee build in PvP. Especially when lag kicks in.

I wanted to skip the other parts. But DB lost users bc of the cast time, not bc of the tiny change to dmg. And meteor into Cage or Streak isn't that hard. to pull of.

Nerfing bleeds and DoTs was not something exclusive to DW. And while we're on the topic of DW, master's has been overperforming for years, even after the bleed change. I don't think I need to get too much into that. The prevalence on a lot of stam builds before the BIG DoT patch should be enough proof. However, you won't get any arguments from me when you mention flurry being unwieldy at best. It sure is. However, Tornado is still plenty good.

2h doesn't have a knockback, stun, or immob anymore because most weapon lines don't now if they come with damage. Bow doesn't. DW doesn't. SnB and Destro do, but you have to give up damage. 2h does, however, come with off-balance, which is a pretty hefty damage boost and can be partial heavy-attacked into a stun.

For the record, too, weapon being a clunky spammable isn't just a stam melee thing. It's just different. If lag comes in, this skill stops working in general.

llElLoboll

Everyone has their own opinion and we will never agree in the end. Personally I disagree that dswing was OP I think nerfs elsewhere cause it to be one of the final decent options remaining. However, nerfs and buffs aside lets just look at the tank meta we are in. Yesterday in pvp the meta had already completely shifted to groups that ran insanely high health and used root, cc, and snare spam to maul you to death. There are hardly if any "skillful" rotations to burst these tank groups with and dots have mostly been destroyed. Whatever your opinion is just look at the fact that all of these consistent nerfs of "op" skills are turning pvp into a tank fest where everyone is becoming unkillable no matter what your damage is.

Nordic__Knights

llElLoboll wrote: »

Everyone has their own opinion and we will never agree in the end. Personally I disagree that dswing was OP I think nerfs elsewhere cause it to be one of the final decent options remaining. However, nerfs and buffs aside lets just look at the tank meta we are in. Yesterday in pvp the meta had already completely shifted to groups that ran insanely high health and used root, cc, and snare spam to maul you to death. There are hardly if any "skillful" rotations to burst these tank groups with and dots have mostly been destroyed. Whatever your opinion is just look at the fact that all of these consistent nerfs of "op" skills are turning pvp into a tank fest where everyone is becoming unkillable no matter what your damage is.

Great so pvp is going to be 20(dps)v1(tank) hitting heavy attacks 😆 😆 everyone show have np with regeneration or Ultimate gain tho so thats an +

leepalmer95

llElLoboll wrote: »

Everyone has their own opinion and we will never agree in the end. Personally I disagree that dswing was OP I think nerfs elsewhere cause it to be one of the final decent options remaining. However, nerfs and buffs aside lets just look at the tank meta we are in. Yesterday in pvp the meta had already completely shifted to groups that ran insanely high health and used root, cc, and snare spam to maul you to death. There are hardly if any "skillful" rotations to burst these tank groups with and dots have mostly been destroyed. Whatever your opinion is just look at the fact that all of these consistent nerfs of "op" skills are turning pvp into a tank fest where everyone is becoming unkillable no matter what your damage is.

Thats more to do with zos failing to nerf cross healing as usual.

Fur_like_snow

When every skill is “balanced” around a spread sheet nothing stands out as exceptional anymore. Same skills with different names and animations because in the devs mind class identity is just being able to visually distinguish the class. If I have no spammable in a class line and only one weapon line is competitive what chose do you have?

Luckylancer

Around 1 year ago I was not sure which two weapon line to use. Good ranged stun +execute dot vs s2w + twinslashes vs d swing + rally. They were all good, choosing was hard. Choosing is still hard because all of them are crap. Everything good have been nerfed. I will continue playing magplar in this 'stam meta'.

BlackMadara

Luckylancer wrote: »

Around 1 year ago I was not sure which two weapon line to use. Good ranged stun +execute dot vs s2w + twinslashes vs d swing + rally. They were all good, choosing was hard. Choosing is still hard because all of them are crap. Everything good have been nerfed. I will continue playing magplar in this 'stam meta'.

What makes them crap? All dots do about the same amount of damage over duration. 2H still has higher burst damage, a strong gap closer, great execute, aoe dot, one of the best ults, and good passives. DW still has good buffs, a dot with a heal, good passives, and the only aoe execute around. The skill lines aren't as strong as before, but have their strengths compared to others. At this point, it seems that class lines are stronger than the weapon and guild lines.

Chilly-McFreeze

Rahar wrote: »

[
2h doesn't have a knockback, stun, or immob anymore because most weapon lines don't now if they come with damage. Bow doesn't. [...]
For the record, too, weapon being a clunky spammable isn't just a stam melee thing. It's just different. If lag comes in, this skill stops working in general.

How do you come to conclusion that Bow doesn't have CCs? In fact it has almost every CC in the book. Hard CC via knockback, soft ones va snare and a root. Plus Snipe has a higher tooltip than Dizzy. But granted, it's a "difficult" main weapon to say the least.
Also in comparison to imbue on melee I find it far more reliable to use on ranged weapons, e.g. bow. But ymmv.

All in all I'm not happy with the whole spread sheat balancing. It robs skills their essence and classes their unique feeling. But that goes too far OT.

BlackMadara wrote: »

The skill lines aren't as strong as before, but have their strengths compared to others. At this point, it seems that class lines are stronger than the weapon and guild lines.

Which would be a nice idea if some classes weren't severly lacking and forced to use mostly generic tools. Those classes are hit the hardest by these kind of changes.

DreadDaedroth

Are all knock backs disappearing?

Chilly-McFreeze

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Are all knock backs disappearing?

No, they just took it off Dizzy Swing and Draining Shot.

Magnum Shot remains as it was before and Piercing Javelin got it's range reduced to 22m but completely ignores physical and spell resistance now, so it's damage got severly buffed.

Rahar

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

[
2h doesn't have a knockback, stun, or immob anymore because most weapon lines don't now if they come with damage. Bow doesn't. [...]
For the record, too, weapon being a clunky spammable isn't just a stam melee thing. It's just different. If lag comes in, this skill stops working in general.

How do you come to conclusion that Bow doesn't have CCs? In fact it has almost every CC in the book. Hard CC via knockback, soft ones va snare and a root. Plus Snipe has a higher tooltip than Dizzy. But granted, it's a "difficult" main weapon to say the least.
Also in comparison to imbue on melee I find it far more reliable to use on ranged weapons, e.g. bow. But ymmv.

All in all I'm not happy with the whole spread sheat balancing. It robs skills their essence and classes their unique feeling. But that goes too far OT.

You're right. Right after I posted that I realized that I was referring to only the most popularly used skills, which typically don't include barrage(?) and magnum shot. I actually want to try and make a snipe brawler build this patch for the laughs, but more to the point...

Honestly, I don't know if I'm a fan of the spread sheet balancing either. On one hand, from purely a numbers standpoint, it makes sense. Each ability has a set power budget and it can only go so far with so many effects. That's certainly a sound way to make sure each ability is balanced, but if it's taken too far, uniqueness goes down the drain. On the other hand, if you just put effects on abilities just because it suits the ability or because it sounds cool, then balance goes down the drain.

I think the answer is that a firm middle ground and clever synergy would alleviate both bad outcomes. For example, MagDK's new stacking 33% whip and Magsorc's burst windows are good instances of this, because each ability has a clear and defined purpose and a good power standard, but used together with the other abilities in the kit it becomes stronger than otherwise implied. That's the kind of feeling we should be aiming for.

kalunte

Good luck killing ppl with a Magnum shot spamming...

Vyvrhel

SentinelRose wrote: »

Also 2h just lost its personality.

Is there ANY reason to play 2H anymore?

Deathlord92

I’m on console so we haven’t had the changes yet. Put it this way dizzy so strong I’m actually using it on my nb I find it easier to burst with dizzy then my actual nb kit lmao 😂

Fawn4287

If they wanted to balance it as a cc the damage would have to have been reduced by like 50-60% and had its cost increased by at least 500 stam. To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination. To compare it, its like when magsorc had cc on cfrag or using masters destro with destructive reach as a spammable, you shouldn’t have high damage and high utility tied to one skill.

Deathlord92

Fawn4287 wrote: »

If they wanted to balance it as a cc the damage would have to have been reduced by like 50-60% and had its cost increased by at least 500 stam. To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination. To compare it, its like when magsorc had cc on cfrag or using masters destro with destructive reach as a spammable, you shouldn’t have high damage and high utility tied to one skill.

Exactly

Chilly-McFreeze

Fawn4287 wrote: »

To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination.

Meanwhile other spams keep their side effects, be it tiny armor reduction +off balance + major resolve on SA or snare + major savagery + minor protection + dmg proc on jabs. Those without a class spam? Peasants that should be happy about crumbs. Balance at it's finest.

Deathlord92

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination.

Meanwhile other spams keep their side effects, be it tiny armor reduction +off balance + major resolve on SA or snare + major savagery + minor protection + dmg proc on jabs. Those without a class spam? Peasants that should be happy about crumbs. Balance at it's finest.

Surprise attack doesn’t hit like an ultimate and stun at the same time lol

Chilly-McFreeze

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination.

Meanwhile other spams keep their side effects, be it tiny armor reduction +off balance + major resolve on SA or snare + major savagery + minor protection + dmg proc on jabs. Those without a class spam? Peasants that should be happy about crumbs. Balance at it's finest.

Surprise attack doesn’t hit like an ultimate and stun at the same time lol

And I quote " cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed" wouldn't do this either. This idea was terrible. Just pointing it out.

And again, DS doesn't hit like a comparable ultimate. That's just bollocks.

Deathlord92

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

To balance it as a spammable it would have had to have the cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed. At the end of the day even on classes like a stamblade and stamplar with their own effective spammables opted for dswing for its easy, cheap, effective damage and cc combination.

Meanwhile other spams keep their side effects, be it tiny armor reduction +off balance + major resolve on SA or snare + major savagery + minor protection + dmg proc on jabs. Those without a class spam? Peasants that should be happy about crumbs. Balance at it's finest.

Surprise attack doesn’t hit like an ultimate and stun at the same time lol

And I quote " cast time removed, the damage reduced by 30% and have the cc and other negative effects removed" wouldn't do this either. This idea was terrible. Just pointing it out.

And again, DS doesn't hit like a comparable ultimate. That's just bollocks.

I’m literally using it on my nb because I find it easier to burst with dizzy swing then my nb kit.

Deathlord92

I’m dropping 10k dizzy swing on bad players easy to kill with dizzy.

Deathlord92

It’s fine for them to remove major fracture from SA but ok for dizzy to hit like a ultimate and keep the stun yup that’s balanced lol 😂

Chilly-McFreeze

Seems like a L2R issue on your end.

This is about Fawn's suggestion, not about it's current or former state.
The loss of 30% dmg AND all side effects would be a bad idea, even without cast time. That's it. Not hard to understand is it?
And don't act like SA has no secondary effects. That's just disingenuous.

P.S. I asked the a dozend times this past months but I do it again, just for you: please show me the ultimate that is Single Target and Melee that hits for just as much as Dizzy. Especially in this patch. On a similar build of course. Not that you come up with a sustain or tank build vs a pure dmg spec. If you can't, please stop using that hyperbole. It doesn't help your cause.

But I guess that won't happen. Just like you don't care about balance at all since you said several times you only care about NBs.

Deathlord92

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Seems like a L2R issue on your end.

This is about Fawn's suggestion, not about it's current or former state.
The loss of 30% dmg AND all side effects would be a bad idea, even without cast time. That's it. Not hard to understand is it?
And don't act like SA has no secondary effects. That's just disingenuous.

Console hasn’t had the changes yet so dizzy swing still broken af and SA sucks ass don’t mean I’m doing bad with my nb I’m just stating that nb sucks since elsweyr and dizzy swing makes bursting easier.

MincVinyl

Been playing dizzy Stamsorc for nearly 5 years now (pvp exclusive),

The change to dizzy is not completely a nerf, just it isn't 90% of my damage anymore. Now I gear my damage towards using no stun at all and just flat out killing people (does suck that dizzy did also lose damage along with losing the stun).

As for the argument of old dizzy knock back was broken during lag if you got hit, that argument is even worse for the off balance stun. I cant tell you how many times I've seen people stuck to the ground after I get the heavy attack stun off.

Lag goes both ways too, old dizzy was near impossible in lag, but when it hit the person felt it. Now you have the same challenge of the old dizzy plus an additional cast of the heavy attack. Here is where some people will make the argument of "just use a medium attack" If you ever have looked at damage numbers, doing a medium attack is less damage, and if you attempt to do a lot of these and end up missing some of these you end up really cutting your damage.

---

For people looking to run dizzy in dragon hold, I highly suggest just playing without trying to get the stun off each time. Instead hit a few LA Dizzy Bash weaves then enter a short buff rotation to go back and hit that heavy attack. The point of this is to avoid doing 3-4 cast times in a row (Dizzy-Heavy-Dizzy-Heavy-repeat). It is really simple to counter a dizzy build doing this, so find ways to avoid the cast times being back to back.

---

TLDR: Dizzy is ok/meh this patch, definitely harder for casuals to use in pvp
Side note: If people thought dizzy knock back > onslaught was bad you dont even see what can be done with the new dizzy.

Fawn4287

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Seems like a L2R issue on your end.

This is about Fawn's suggestion, not about it's current or former state.
The loss of 30% dmg AND all side effects would be a bad idea, even without cast time. That's it. Not hard to understand is it?
And don't act like SA has no secondary effects. That's just disingenuous.

P.S. I asked the a dozend times this past months but I do it again, just for you: please show me the ultimate that is Single Target and Melee that hits for just as much as Dizzy. Especially in this patch. On a similar build of course. Not that you come up with a sustain or tank build vs a pure dmg spec. If you can't, please stop using that hyperbole. It doesn't help your cause.

But I guess that won't happen. Just like you don't care about balance at all since you said several times you only care about NBs.

You keep putting this single target direct damage special pleading style pre requisite on an ultimate being the same style as dizzying swing to have to be comparable in damage, the point being made is that d swing pre patch hit harder than many ultimates in the game FOR A SPAMMABLE, name another direct damage weapon ability that hits the same damage as d swing, and on top of that it had buggy cc that made combos extremely easy to land. Sa has some added effects that require a specific playstyle and combination to proc. My cause has been solved as d swing got the nerf it deserved, it seems there are a load of stamsorc and some stamdk mains that are unhappy that the combination d swing, onslaught, executioner doesn’t have the same effectiveness it did last patch.

Fur_like_snow

It hits hard in CP with the exploiter passive DS, hard stun then everyone ultimate dumps the target is lights out. In no CP yeah it took a nerf. The combo might have changed a bit but the result seems to be the same.

Davadin

MincVinyl wrote: »

Side note: If people thought dizzy knock back > onslaught was bad you dont even see what can be done with the new dizzy.

ooh please do tell.

i'm ok with new dizzy too. 10% extra as spammable instead of a damage+stun utility. as stamDK, i can still drop my green claw and nox breath and just spam away.