Uppercut

Morgha_Kul

So... what was the point of changing Uppercut? I loved its knockback effect. It felt powerful, which was VERY appropriate for some of my characters (my Nord berzerker, in particular). Now... it sets the foe off balance, so I have to Heavy Attack him to stun him for... a fraction of a second? The morph now has no use at all... and the other morph never did have any use, so what exactly is the point of this now?

Ruined it, they have, and I can't fathom why.

Chilly-McFreeze

If you really want to know:

Last update they overnerfed Hidden Blade, Low Slash and Puncture as spammables while they triple buffed Dizzy (-0.2s cast time, lower cost, +9% dmg [which btw was still lower than half a year before])

Stam players of cause flocked to it because it was the last good spammable for some classes (sorcs, dk, wardens etc.)

People read it more often on their death recap bc it was easier to use and used more often (remember: other spams sucked). So they came here and cried nerf.

ZOS came up with a lazy excuse and used the 50-60% DoT nerfs as scapegoat ("we nerfed dizzy and flurry because it exceeded dot standards").

ZOS softened the DoT nerf but didn't reevaluated Flurry and Dizzy.

Also they *** up with the knockback CC, taking it off of some skills while buffing others, e.g. Templar's Spear to ignore resistances. Yey.

Instead of realizing this skill is overnerfed parts of the community tried to sell it as a buff (you can control the CC better blabla.; if you run a suboptimal CP Dizzy build you gain easy off balance access which is a buff) completely ignoring that it does nothing for most builds (tactician, no cp) etc.


Tl;dr:

#1 nerfed alternatives made DS heavily used
#2 CC break issues
#3 DoT excuse
#4 forum tears

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ruined it, they have, and I can't fathom why.

Probably same person that thought Fighter guild trap should only immobilize (ya know, the primary function of a bear trap) for 2 seconds. We can’t have skills do anything interesting. Everything must be grey paste

BlackMadara

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

Nordic__Knights

I would say its lag control as break free and lag dont go together so why fix lag when you can just remove things from skills that causes the use of something that lag prevents

Rahar

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

usmguy1234

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

Oppressive stam meta

>ignores the herds of magplars in cyrodiil and bgs.

Rahar

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

Oppressive stam meta

>ignores the herds of magplars in cyrodiil and bgs.

I most certainly don't. Check my posts. I complain about them enough.

When I mention an oppressive stam meta, I mean to stam players exclusively. If you didn't pick dswing in Scalebreaker, you couldn't compete as stam.

Dusk_Coven

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

Ruined it, they have, and I can't fathom why.

I believe they talked about it and a lot of combat related things in the second half of their twitch stream months ago. I think it's this one
www.twitch.tv/videos/416797847

Morgha_Kul

So am I hearing that this is because of PvP?

How was this skill even USEFUL in PvP? It takes so long to activate, you just block and it does nothing.

In any case, I find myself really ticked off that something FUN was killed because of PvP whining. Zathras can never have anything nice.

SentinelRose

Uppercut just as well as some other abilities just got ruined. Wont be on my bar anymore. Also 2h just lost its personality.

scottii

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

leepalmer95

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

They did, now you got to medium weave for a stun. It lost 16% dmg but gained 10% all dmg via passives in cp.

Chilly-McFreeze

leepalmer95 wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

They did, now you got to medium weave for a stun. It lost 16% dmg but gained 10% all dmg via passives in cp.

Only in CP and only if you didn't used Tactician before. In every other scenario (no CP cyro, BG, CP + tactician) you simply lost 16% flat.

evoniee

next

leepalmer95

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

They did, now you got to medium weave for a stun. It lost 16% dmg but gained 10% all dmg via passives in cp.

Only in CP and only if you didn't used Tactician before. In every other scenario (no CP cyro, BG, CP + tactician) you simply lost 16% flat.

And? That dmg was from a time where the skill was a 1.1s channel, it got changed to 0.8s channel and kept its previous dmg.

Davadin

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So am I hearing that this is because of PvP?

How was this skill even USEFUL in PvP? It takes so long to activate, you just block and it does nothing.

In any case, I find myself really ticked off that something FUN was killed because of PvP whining. Zathras can never have anything nice.

somebody never PvP... lol

the stun and knockback is a killer in PvP.

not a lot of people can/will block in the zerg fest that is PvP.

Chilly-McFreeze

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

They did, now you got to medium weave for a stun. It lost 16% dmg but gained 10% all dmg via passives in cp.

Only in CP and only if you didn't used Tactician before. In every other scenario (no CP cyro, BG, CP + tactician) you simply lost 16% flat.

And? That dmg was from a time where the skill was a 1.1s channel, it got changed to 0.8s channel and kept its previous dmg.

No, it wasn't. They already adjusted the damage twice form when it was 1.1s. Someone who so avidly defends the nerf should know that.

This is the third time in a row, seems like Zeni doesn't know what they want with DS either.

CleymenZero

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

So... what was the point of changing Uppercut? I loved its knockback effect. It felt powerful, which was VERY appropriate for some of my characters (my Nord berzerker, in particular). Now... it sets the foe off balance, so I have to Heavy Attack him to stun him for... a fraction of a second? The morph now has no use at all... and the other morph never did have any use, so what exactly is the point of this now?

Ruined it, they have, and I can't fathom why.

My friend is also depressed about the change but we completely slaughtered kids last night.

Uppercut still 2 shots + execute most people not playing in a ball group.

So imagine how stupidly powerful it was before? It had a knock back effect, holy crap!!! It was stacked, simple. They did the same job on clench. It would deal direct damage and knock back... Add master's staff and you got a strong spammable that CC's. It makes no sense for your spammable to stun, too easy to melt people.

BlackMadara

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

Look at the damage on non ultimate skills that stun. They deal about half the damage of a true spammable. You do not want the damage of dizzy nerfed to that level.

kalunte

Deserved tweak. Next.

Fur_like_snow

Once upon a time I could front bar sword & board and use La heroic bash combos as an alternative to dizzying swing. Then Zeni ruined sword & board for no other reason than to make it unviable as anything other than a buff/debuff backbar.

Truth is stam players got pigeonholed into dizzying swing because Zeni took away the alternatives or made the DPS so weak they couldn’t be competitive. Duel wield? Now it’s best used as a utility backbar. Sword and board? Same issue. Bow? Good luck using that on front bar unless you’re a NB.

So we end up with poop fist, bleed birds and a stam pet that deal 400 dmg head butts. No thanks.

Ragnarock41

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

scottii wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

so just reduce the damage of DS to make it on par with similar abilities.

They did, now you got to medium weave for a stun. It lost 16% dmg but gained 10% all dmg via passives in cp.

Only in CP and only if you didn't used Tactician before. In every other scenario (no CP cyro, BG, CP + tactician) you simply lost 16% flat.

And? That dmg was from a time where the skill was a 1.1s channel, it got changed to 0.8s channel and kept its previous dmg.

Actually its damage got nerfed many times over.

bakermir

While removing knockback on dizzying swing from 2h and drain shot from bow, developers have completely ignored the knockback from destro staff REACH skill.

Now every zergling is spamming and abusing reach. Great balancing!

Imagine a stam player having the luxury reach(knockback) into silence into fear combo. yep thats 3 bloody cc's you can combo while you have to weave medium attack after landing a dizzy and pray the magicka player or WARDEN doesn't cleanse "off-balance" debuff or simply roll-dodge so you can cc your opponent once which is just 2 seconds stun and you lose that duration to secure ultimate hit since they have a CAST TIME TOO.

leepalmer95

bakermir wrote: »

While removing knockback on dizzying swing from 2h and drain shot from bow, developers have completely ignored the knockback from destro staff REACH skill.

Now every zergling is spamming and abusing reach. Great balancing!

Imagine a stam player having the luxury reach(knockback) into silence into fear combo. yep thats 3 bloody cc's you can combo while you have to weave medium attack after landing a dizzy and pray the magicka player or WARDEN doesn't cleanse "off-balance" debuff or simply roll-dodge so you can cc your opponent once which is just 2 seconds stun and you lose that duration to secure ultimate hit since they have a CAST TIME TOO.

If yo choose the cc on reach is has very low dmg.

xylena_lazarow

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If yo choose the cc on reach is has very low dmg.

Reach is the DoT morph, it doesn't stun. Clench is the morph that stuns, and only on Inferno staff.

Playing in Cyro since the patch hit, I've only come across one person using Uppercut, a NB at that.

leepalmer95

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If yo choose the cc on reach is has very low dmg.

Reach is the DoT morph, it doesn't stun. Clench is the morph that stuns, and only on Inferno staff.

Playing in Cyro since the patch hit, I've only come across one person using Uppercut, a NB at that.

Shows how much people were crutching on it then. Its not exactly super hard to randomly medium weave every so often when you want the cc.

Chilly-McFreeze

leepalmer95 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If yo choose the cc on reach is has very low dmg.

Reach is the DoT morph, it doesn't stun. Clench is the morph that stuns, and only on Inferno staff.

Playing in Cyro since the patch hit, I've only come across one person using Uppercut, a NB at that.

Shows how much people were crutching on it then. Its not exactly super hard to randomly medium weave every so often when you want the cc.

Shows how overnerfed it is. Issue isn't the CC, issue is the dmg.

Nicalas

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

It only pushed out other options because ZOS wrecked bleed builds and snb skill line. What other stamina build options existed? The only class with a remotely unique kit is stamplar. They have delayed burst, class stun, and a melee spammable. No other class has these things. You had 3 build options bleeds, snb weave, dizzy. Two of them were removed in a previous patch. Dizzy wasn't overpowered they just destroyed any competition in the previous patches.

How about stamina gets spammables that aren't ranged? I don't wanna throw rocks, call pigeons, or launch flaming skulls. We want to swing our weapons and slash opponents. How about we make an useful stamina ultimate. Dawnbreaker is easier to block than Meteor and Onslaught needs to follow burst and a cc. There is nothing else. Dual Wield ult is a dot that can be dodged and purged. Ballista can be los'd, dodged, blocked, cloaked. It's not as simple as slotting turn evil. The skill is ridiculously expensive, does no damage. It's basically a wasted GCD. If you can't kill a Magplar or Magsorc in 2 GCD's they are gonna fully heal and melt your face.

kalunte

It was overpowered = everyone started spamming it.

Isn't overpowered anymore = everyone drops it.

The skill is viable anyway.

Rahar

Nicalas wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

The knockback was removed because ZoS is separating spammable/burst skills with cc. Stuns have been removed from power lash, crystal drags, etc. True stuns are now only attached to lower damage skills.

This is the superficial answer, and the correct one, but I think it goes a little deeper than this.

Basically, the skill combined with onslaught was pushing every other option for stamina builds out. It's actually astonishing how much stam builds were stagnant in Scalebreaker. I don't really think it was either the damage or the stun that was the problem with dswing, since those were more or less okay to me -- with the exception of ZOS's ideal of balance, which would disagree -- but the true meat of the issue lies with the utterly inescapable combination of this skill and the 2h ultimate.

Whether this is the cause or the effect of the answer above, though, is up in the air. I don't think it matters. What matters is that we can move on from such an oppressive stam meta.

It only pushed out other options because ZOS wrecked bleed builds and snb skill line. What other stamina build options existed? The only class with a remotely unique kit is stamplar. They have delayed burst, class stun, and a melee spammable. No other class has these things. You had 3 build options bleeds, snb weave, dizzy. Two of them were removed in a previous patch. Dizzy wasn't overpowered they just destroyed any competition in the previous patches.

How about stamina gets spammables that aren't ranged? I don't wanna throw rocks, call pigeons, or launch flaming skulls. We want to swing our weapons and slash opponents. How about we make an useful stamina ultimate. Dawnbreaker is easier to block than Meteor and Onslaught needs to follow burst and a cc. There is nothing else. Dual Wield ult is a dot that can be dodged and purged. Ballista can be los'd, dodged, blocked, cloaked. It's not as simple as slotting turn evil. The skill is ridiculously expensive, does no damage. It's basically a wasted GCD. If you can't kill a Magplar or Magsorc in 2 GCD's they are gonna fully heal and melt your face.

There's a lot of bad points and hyperbole here, but I'll try and tackle everything.

The only stamina skills that were really toned down recently is heroic slash and puncture, which arguably had the same problem as dswing; it pushed a lot of other options out because it offered good damage, great utility, and both defense as well as offense. I think there definitely was a reason to tone this skill line down, because it offered too much. Whether they went too far or not is a different matter. I also think there's a widespread confusion surrounding what is actually competitive and what is unquestionably overperforming. Compound this with the fact that other skills, including magicka skills (Reach), that offered too much were also toned down, and you can come full-circle to the understanding that abilities that do too much are becoming a target for the new balancing team. I, like a lot of other people, consider this to be a pretty healthy and agreeable approach.

However, the unwillingness to see other options is not mine nor anyone else's fault. There are things that work. The new dswing still hits hard (2h is still ludicrously strong as a weapon line), and dual wield has always been somewhat good. Magicka uses elemental weapon as a spammable in a lot of cases. There's a stamina morph of this. Now you just won't get your stun, your damage, and your spammable all in one. It's something that will take a little adjusting to, but overall is a good direction for the game, and stamina dswing builds have finally joined the party.

What actually brings in to picture how out of touch you are with the dichotomy between mag and stam are the examples you give. Learning to time block with a meteor is one of the first things I learned to do when I started to play PvP, and continue to do to this day. It's actually rather hard to get hit directly with this skill, unless it's also followed by a streak or a well-timed stun. I don't think you'll find a lot of players that would disagree with this. DB was a different case, I think. That skill was probably taken out of a lot of builds because of a small damage nerf and there being way better options that came into play. Onslaught, for example; Onslaught was different. In the majority of the cases where the dswing + onslaught combo was used, it was impossible to break stun fast enough to dodge the ultimate due to the knockback effect.