The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
• [IN PROGRESS] PC/Mac: NA megaserver for maintenance – April 25, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 2:00PM EDT (18:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
You've still completely missed the mark on DoT damage.
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further
Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now 0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now
Fair enough and I appreciate all of the feedback.
From what I see, what I want is a re-evaluation of DoT damage that results in some "classic" DoTs getting an additional damage increase (say, another 20-33%). Perhaps bringing them back in line with their Elsweyr values, perhaps just a bit lower.
That would be ... Rending Slashes, Carve, Poison Injection, Lightning Splash, Twisting Path, and probably some others.
Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and I welcome someone to post tests or data that demonstrate otherwise.
But IMO, introducing a damage-focused DoT into a rotation should have an obvious and immediate positive impact on DPS. Right now what I see is that introducing DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection has such a small impact that it's difficult to even discern it from error or noise.1 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Test 1 hit 201k total damage
Test 2 - 209.5k total damage
Test 3 - 203.6k total damage
Test 4 - 222.2k total damage
The difference between test 2&3 is 2.8%, and it would have been a whole lot closer on PTS 5.2.0, like maybe 1%.
And test 4 has 100% direct damage. Direct damage is kind of a Nightblade-leaning thing, and physical weapon expert is buffing a huge portion of the parse compared to what you'd get on a normal DPS test.
You could just as easily slot an axe, use flurry as a spammable and go the other way with Thaumaturge, especially with oher classes that lean on their class DOTs. Some of the dots would be a lot harder to pass up on those builds, which could be cast aside on direct damage builds. All I know is my Nightblade is hitting much closer to my DK on the PTS, still not there yet, and each is using opposite damage styles instead of going one-sided on Thaumaturge like it is on live.
Except that in most cases there is no point in using Flurry; you'll be better served by switching to 2H and using Wrecking Blow/Executioner so that you can continue optimizing CP towards Direct Damage.
vMA DW is still garbage, so there's no benefit to going Flurry to enable that. Except *maybe* on a stamDK. Every other class is going to want to use their class spammable or Wrecking Blow + Executioner. And even on a stamDK ... if you're the only one you'll probably be using Stone Fist for the Stagger proc, so even that's a scratch.
Do a bunch of full parses on the raid dummy, with DoTs, and then let Constellations optimize your CP for you. Eventually you'll drop most DoTs and move most of your points out of Thaumaturge.
I just threw together a stamsorc on the PTS, I'm not at all used to playing them by the way. First I tried a similar DOT setup as my Dragonknight with a monster set, deadly strikes and relequen, slotted a bunch of dots and immediately got the same DPS I get on the DK.
Then I tried something similar to what you've been saying. Wrecking blow, executioner, left on barbed trap and bound armaments on front bar, slotted the clanfear. Swapped to perfect Lokke front bar, maesltrom bow back bar, monster set, swapped to 22% into Master at Arms, added a little in physical weapon expert and left 9% thaumaturge. DPS is looking really crappy, like 20% less dps kind of crappy, what else am I leaving out?
I have no idea without seeing your CMX parses and/or Superstar/CMX build info.
I've seen numerous 88-90k stamsorc parses in Rele/Lokke/Maw using only Poison Injection or no DoTs at all (other than Hurricane + Hail + Trap).
*Edit: I just logged on and did one quick parse without optimizing anything. This is Rele/Lokke/Maw, just Hail + Trap + Hurricane + Wrecking Blow spam until execute (and Bound Armaments procs):
Also have to note that I think the fact that I cast a spammable/execute/proc (Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Bound Armaments) 167 times in a 238 second parse is hilarious. Literally 70% of my casts.
Is maw of the infernal good for a Sorc?
I checked again and found out that I left off jewelry enchants / traits. So it's fixed, and it has been a couple hours of messing with it, I remain a novice sorcerer and now i'm getting the same dps no matter which way I build.
Maelstrom staff back bar with 22% master at arms
Maelstrom bow back bar with 22% master at arms
Full blown dots with 22% thaumaturge and Deadly Strikes great axe back bar / dual wield front, it's all about the same for me
It looks like rapid strikes is only hitting around 33k, but there's a lot of bleeds coming from one axe. The weakest dot in the dot build is probably consuming trap with 46.7k / cast. Relequen is obviously up.
When building for direct damage Wrecking blow is around 41k / cast (including the 40% light attack buff) while executioner is maybe 67 ish k / cast. Bound Armaments seems to be direct damage?
How much was the difference between building for a DOT build and building for a direct build when you tried it?Edited by Bladerunner1 on October 10, 2019 2:04AM0 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭Revert DoTs to Elsweyr. Admit you messed up ZoS. Just take the L on this one and go back.6
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usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now
Fair enough and I appreciate all of the feedback.
From what I see, what I want is a re-evaluation of DoT damage that results in some "classic" DoTs getting an additional damage increase (say, another 20-33%). Perhaps bringing them back in line with their Elsweyr values, perhaps just a bit lower.
That would be ... Rending Slashes, Carve, Poison Injection, Lightning Splash, Twisting Path, and probably some others.
Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and I welcome someone to post tests or data that demonstrate otherwise.
But IMO, introducing a damage-focused DoT into a rotation should have an obvious and immediate positive impact on DPS. Right now what I see is that introducing DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection has such a small impact that it's difficult to even discern it from error or noise.
A damage increase on DOTs should be completely out of the picture.
If anything a duration reduction would be more in tune with their balancing metric.0331
06020 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »A damage increase on DOTs should be completely out of the picture.
If anything a duration reduction would be more in tune with their balancing metric.
No.
That would simply make the DOT closer to being the same thing as a DD. Here is your 3 second dot that now does 250% of your DD damage...
Really? What is the point? it is now just the same as alternating 2 spammables.
Meaningful choices people - means you have to be open to dying or being effective in COMPLETELY different ways than we currently have.
This means Elsweyr DoTs0 -
Baharoth77✭✭✭The Dev’s have basically screwed combat over hard since Elweyr. Take it back to that point. Continue to try to add class flavor.
Me and all my friends left the game after the last patch and won’t even think of coming back until they undo the horrible mess they have made.
Keep messing it up ZOS and keep losing players.4 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Test 1 hit 201k total damage
Test 2 - 209.5k total damage
Test 3 - 203.6k total damage
Test 4 - 222.2k total damage
The difference between test 2&3 is 2.8%, and it would have been a whole lot closer on PTS 5.2.0, like maybe 1%.
And test 4 has 100% direct damage. Direct damage is kind of a Nightblade-leaning thing, and physical weapon expert is buffing a huge portion of the parse compared to what you'd get on a normal DPS test.
You could just as easily slot an axe, use flurry as a spammable and go the other way with Thaumaturge, especially with oher classes that lean on their class DOTs. Some of the dots would be a lot harder to pass up on those builds, which could be cast aside on direct damage builds. All I know is my Nightblade is hitting much closer to my DK on the PTS, still not there yet, and each is using opposite damage styles instead of going one-sided on Thaumaturge like it is on live.
Except that in most cases there is no point in using Flurry; you'll be better served by switching to 2H and using Wrecking Blow/Executioner so that you can continue optimizing CP towards Direct Damage.
vMA DW is still garbage, so there's no benefit to going Flurry to enable that. Except *maybe* on a stamDK. Every other class is going to want to use their class spammable or Wrecking Blow + Executioner. And even on a stamDK ... if you're the only one you'll probably be using Stone Fist for the Stagger proc, so even that's a scratch.
Do a bunch of full parses on the raid dummy, with DoTs, and then let Constellations optimize your CP for you. Eventually you'll drop most DoTs and move most of your points out of Thaumaturge.
I just threw together a stamsorc on the PTS, I'm not at all used to playing them by the way. First I tried a similar DOT setup as my Dragonknight with a monster set, deadly strikes and relequen, slotted a bunch of dots and immediately got the same DPS I get on the DK.
Then I tried something similar to what you've been saying. Wrecking blow, executioner, left on barbed trap and bound armaments on front bar, slotted the clanfear. Swapped to perfect Lokke front bar, maesltrom bow back bar, monster set, swapped to 22% into Master at Arms, added a little in physical weapon expert and left 9% thaumaturge. DPS is looking really crappy, like 20% less dps kind of crappy, what else am I leaving out?
I have no idea without seeing your CMX parses and/or Superstar/CMX build info.
I've seen numerous 88-90k stamsorc parses in Rele/Lokke/Maw using only Poison Injection or no DoTs at all (other than Hurricane + Hail + Trap).
*Edit: I just logged on and did one quick parse without optimizing anything. This is Rele/Lokke/Maw, just Hail + Trap + Hurricane + Wrecking Blow spam until execute (and Bound Armaments procs):
Also have to note that I think the fact that I cast a spammable/execute/proc (Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Bound Armaments) 167 times in a 238 second parse is hilarious. Literally 70% of my casts.
Is maw of the infernal good for a Sorc?
I checked again and found out that I left off jewelry enchants / traits. So it's fixed, and it has been a couple hours of messing with it, I remain a novice sorcerer and now i'm getting the same dps no matter which way I build.
Maelstrom staff back bar with 22% master at arms
Maelstrom bow back bar with 22% master at arms
Full blown dots with 22% thaumaturge and Deadly Strikes great axe back bar / dual wield front, it's all about the same for me
It looks like rapid strikes is only hitting around 33k, but there's a lot of bleeds coming from one axe. The weakest dot in the dot build is probably consuming trap with 46.7k / cast. Relequen is obviously up.
When building for direct damage Wrecking blow is around 41k / cast (including the 40% light attack buff) while executioner is maybe 67 ish k / cast. Bound Armaments seems to be direct damage?
How much was the difference between building for a DOT build and building for a direct build when you tried it?
@Bladerunner1 your vMA bow/2H parse has no Hurricane or Axe bleed and it looks like you really underutilized Bound Armaments.
Those appear to be the primary differences.
Also, not sure when you are switching from Wrecking Blow to Executioner, but for me it seems to be about 33-34% where Executioner starts hitting harder. And also, I continue using Bound Armaments until about 21-22% as it appears to hit harder than Executioner until then (with x Bloodthirsty).Edited by LiquidPony on October 10, 2019 5:00AM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now
Fair enough and I appreciate all of the feedback.
From what I see, what I want is a re-evaluation of DoT damage that results in some "classic" DoTs getting an additional damage increase (say, another 20-33%). Perhaps bringing them back in line with their Elsweyr values, perhaps just a bit lower.
That would be ... Rending Slashes, Carve, Poison Injection, Lightning Splash, Twisting Path, and probably some others.
Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and I welcome someone to post tests or data that demonstrate otherwise.
But IMO, introducing a damage-focused DoT into a rotation should have an obvious and immediate positive impact on DPS. Right now what I see is that introducing DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection has such a small impact that it's difficult to even discern it from error or noise.
A damage increase on DOTs should be completely out of the picture.
If anything a duration reduction would be more in tune with their balancing metric.
Some sort of rationale to support this would be useful.
If you reduced the duration of any of the aforementioned DoTs, they would go from possibly granting a marginal DPS increase to being an obvious DPS loss.
This makes literally zero sense.0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now
Fair enough and I appreciate all of the feedback.
From what I see, what I want is a re-evaluation of DoT damage that results in some "classic" DoTs getting an additional damage increase (say, another 20-33%). Perhaps bringing them back in line with their Elsweyr values, perhaps just a bit lower.
That would be ... Rending Slashes, Carve, Poison Injection, Lightning Splash, Twisting Path, and probably some others.
Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and I welcome someone to post tests or data that demonstrate otherwise.
But IMO, introducing a damage-focused DoT into a rotation should have an obvious and immediate positive impact on DPS. Right now what I see is that introducing DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection has such a small impact that it's difficult to even discern it from error or noise.
A damage increase on DOTs should be completely out of the picture.
If anything a duration reduction would be more in tune with their balancing metric.
Some sort of rationale to support this would be useful.
If you reduced the duration of any of the aforementioned DoTs, they would go from possibly granting a marginal DPS increase to being an obvious DPS loss.
This makes literally zero sense.
No he is right. If you reduce the duration, but keep the overall damage the same each tick will be higher equating to a greater DPS.
This is maths😂👍
0 -
SenpaiNFT✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.
Cannot disagree with anything in that. But unfortunately they arent going to backtrack on that. And both in my objective and subjective opinion it is as good as they can make it at current iteration if all they keep doing is shifting that line of 'how much dot damage should do'. Every build is using some dots because of their functional necessity and no build is required to use all of them or none for very visible DPS gain as happens currently on Live or happened first 3 weeks of PTS.
I am bad at stopping, but I will try now
Fair enough and I appreciate all of the feedback.
From what I see, what I want is a re-evaluation of DoT damage that results in some "classic" DoTs getting an additional damage increase (say, another 20-33%). Perhaps bringing them back in line with their Elsweyr values, perhaps just a bit lower.
That would be ... Rending Slashes, Carve, Poison Injection, Lightning Splash, Twisting Path, and probably some others.
Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong, and I welcome someone to post tests or data that demonstrate otherwise.
But IMO, introducing a damage-focused DoT into a rotation should have an obvious and immediate positive impact on DPS. Right now what I see is that introducing DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection has such a small impact that it's difficult to even discern it from error or noise.
A damage increase on DOTs should be completely out of the picture.
If anything a duration reduction would be more in tune with their balancing metric.
Some sort of rationale to support this would be useful.
If you reduced the duration of any of the aforementioned DoTs, they would go from possibly granting a marginal DPS increase to being an obvious DPS loss.
This makes literally zero sense.
No he is right. If you reduce the duration, but keep the overall damage the same each tick will be higher equating to a greater DPS.
This is maths😂👍
You realize having a shorter duration means you have to recast it sooner? If it lasts 10 seconds I can get 9 SAs in before recasting, if it lasts 5, I can get 4, so basic math tells me that in the same time frame (10 seconds) I will be getting one less surprise attack. The DoT would then have to be strong enough to not just be slightly better, but significantly better than using two spammables, because you also have to factor in that you are going to have downtime on DoTs in an actual raid setting.
Based off the math of test 5 (you’d elect for this CP option because shorter duration = less DoTs being used overall) we can see that if the duration were halved but damage remained the same, wed see the current damage done by rending doubles
(4444 + 4444 + 12125) = 21,013 damage done
So while we are getting an extra 21,013 damage done, remember, we are losing 1 extra surprise attack to recast rending a second time.
SA = 14,713 damage done
So we’d see roughly an increase in 6.3k damage, or 630 DPS, but remember, because we have to recast DoTs sooner, our sustain is going to be noticeably worse as most DoTs are more expensive then spammables. In this case rending is 400 more then SA, as is poison inject, so those two alone off rip amount to a sustain decrease of 80 per-second, math wise you’d need an extra 160 recovery to match the same sustain as just using surprise attack.
We also have to factor in again that it is much harder to keep up short DoTs in many endgame fights, so realistically the DPS increase would not even be so great. This is based off a scenario where they literally double the DPS of rending by halving the duration; it’s suffice to say any duration change would not be so great, thus the actual DPS improvement would not be so great.
TL;DR the small DPS increase would not be worth the hassle, nor the drop in sustain, and we would have the same result we have now.Edited by SenpaiNFT on October 10, 2019 6:08AM2 -
Taloros✭✭✭✭Shortening the durations isn't the way to fix this mess.
If they were made much longer (e. g. 30 seconds) while keeping the total damage, it'd work. DoTs would make sense then for long-lasting fights, and there's be need for nukes in between renewing the DoTs. DoTs would then be more of a resource saver than a damage boost.
Or the added super-DoTs might just be removed. The real problem, in my opinion, isn't the high DoT damage, but that two extremely powerful DoTs were added. This allows to spend your rotation casting DoTs all the time. If there were less DoT skills, nukes would still have a place in your rotation.2 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nerfing dots like Soul Trap is not the answer. Just because players weren't making threads about it every day on the forums doesn't mean that we should go back to having a bunch of useless spells that nobody uses.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Nerfing dots like Soul Trap is not the answer. Just because players weren't making threads about it every day on the forums doesn't mean that we should go back to having a bunch of useless spells that nobody uses.
No one is asking for Soul Trap to be nerfed. It was already nerfed.0 -
vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭On live Soul Trap is still srong. It will be nerfed.
Nerfing dots so hard like it's done o PTS right now and we'll get several useless skills again.
So if DOTs were brought up to Elsweyr standard, we'd still be in a dot meta, wouldn't we?
I ask again, how much dps should a dot do comparable to direct damage spammables, so you'd use several dots, but you would still use a spammable, too?
Before dot meta this was done by having several dots really bad or non-existant, so you didn't have a choice.
With dot standards and so many (!) Dots you can slot it will probably be always either all dots or only as much as you need for utility (proccing enchant etc). The solution would be to reduce the amount of dots again. Then they don't need to be nerfed as much as it's done on PTS.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭After reading all of the discussion here, I'm starting to wonder if the real problem with DoTs is their cost, not their damage. DoTs have a whole bunch of quality of life disadvantages compared to direct damage, which are compensated for on Live with greater DPS (which basically makes them mandatory). By comparison, on PTS, it seems like the quality of life differences aren't compensated at all.
Giving DoTs a cost decrease (at PTS damage levels) would help make them a viable alternative to direct damage without making them mandatory. You could then choose between the increased efficiency of DoTs (with the risk of the target dying early from someone else's damage, the potential of getting cleansed, more opportunities for the target to heal, etc.), or the increased reliability and burst of direct damage.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on October 10, 2019 11:59AM1 -
beadabow✭✭✭I'm telling you guys, when it is all said and done, the best dps rotation will be fist, fist, kick fist, bar swap, bite, kick, spit, fist, bar swap bite.2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In my, admittedly narrow, view the major problem is not the damage nerf of DoTs but the cost increase.
For me it would have been fine if your tests 2 and 4 showed similar DPS but with a clearly better (i.e. lower) stamina drain on the DoT rotation by something in the 50-100 range. Because even if the DPS is the same in a max damage build, having more resources always comes useful in phases when you have to block, dodge, cc break etc.
And with that in mind, your 10sec parses are bit too short for conclusions on stam drain @LiquidPony. A minute long test between 2 and 4 would give better indication of the difference in sustain.EU | PC | AD2 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced0 -
For pvp, today's nerf is very well made. You can choose different styles of the game. For pve, only the totals are important.
We don't know, maybe they'll tweak the dots a little more. The that the cost of AOE dots high this need was do.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 10, 2019 12:36PM0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced
From PvP perspective, I'm not even sure current DoT damage is enough while the tanky build meta persists.
I spend most of my time in BGs and even in the no-CP context you have games timing out with teams around ~300 points despite players doing damage in the 1m-2m range. Because everyone is running high resists and healing is super strong. You ain't gonna kill those peeps with DoTS nerfed 30%, certainly not by just using spammables.
I felt that armor and defensive buffs (as well as healing) needed to be looked at before DoTs taking a hit. Because at the moment DoTs melt squishy builds, while tanky builds soldier on without problems and everyone goes tanky in PvP.EU | PC | AD2 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced
From PvP perspective, I'm not even sure current DoT damage is enough while the tanky build meta persists.
I spend most of my time in BGs and even in the no-CP context you have games timing out with teams around ~300 points despite players doing damage in the 1m-2m range. Because everyone is running high resists and healing is super strong. You ain't gonna kill those peeps with DoTS nerfed 30%, certainly not by just using spammables.
I felt that armor and defensive buffs (as well as healing) needed to be looked at before DoTs taking a hit. Because at the moment DoTs melt squishy builds, while tanky builds soldier on without problems and everyone goes tanky in PvP.
The other thing that should have been looked at instead of merging dots make spammable a and direct damage skills more appealing as in give added utility and so on0 -
Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced
From PvP perspective, I'm not even sure current DoT damage is enough while the tanky build meta persists.
I spend most of my time in BGs and even in the no-CP context you have games timing out with teams around ~300 points despite players doing damage in the 1m-2m range. Because everyone is running high resists and healing is super strong. You ain't gonna kill those peeps with DoTS nerfed 30%, certainly not by just using spammables.
I felt that armor and defensive buffs (as well as healing) needed to be looked at before DoTs taking a hit. Because at the moment DoTs melt squishy builds, while tanky builds soldier on without problems and everyone goes tanky in PvP.
This is much deeper than you think. Many people wear Bloodspawn to resist dots and dizzy spammers. When it's nerf people will understand that they need more damage and will begin to sacrifice something. Just as one of the chains of events.
Today on life server DK full tank uses dots skills + dizzy and hits like a truck. Warden full tanky just uses Dizzy and hits like a truck.
Previously, many ran in a pirate skeleton, so it seemed that all the tankers.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 10, 2019 1:02PM1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »Nerfing dots like Soul Trap is not the answer. Just because players weren't making threads about it every day on the forums doesn't mean that we should go back to having a bunch of useless spells that nobody uses.
No one is asking for Soul Trap to be nerfed. It was already nerfed.
I'm talking about all the people asking ZOS to "revert to Elsweyr". That would be a big nerf to Entropy and Soul Trap versus what we have on the Live server or the PTS. I get the feeling these same people don't want their class dots nerfed, of course.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced
From PvP perspective, I'm not even sure current DoT damage is enough while the tanky build meta persists.
I spend most of my time in BGs and even in the no-CP context you have games timing out with teams around ~300 points despite players doing damage in the 1m-2m range. Because everyone is running high resists and healing is super strong. You ain't gonna kill those peeps with DoTS nerfed 30%, certainly not by just using spammables.
I felt that armor and defensive buffs (as well as healing) needed to be looked at before DoTs taking a hit. Because at the moment DoTs melt squishy builds, while tanky builds soldier on without problems and everyone goes tanky in PvP.
This is much deeper than you think. Many people wear Bloodspawn to resist dots and dizzy spammers. When it's nerf. People will understand that they need more damage and will begin to sacrifice something. Just as one of the chains of events.
Today on life server DK full tank use dots skills + dizzy and hits like a truck. Warden full tanky just uses Dizzy and hits like a truck.
Perhaps. But is the issue there the high damage of these builds or high mitigation/healing? Or the combination of those?
For me, these builds don’t hit hard at all outside their Onslaught timer. But that’s because I tanked up myself so even though I’m in light armor (5-2) I’m running Bloodspawn, Pariah, S&B backbar and 2 protective jewels. So I can be capped on resists while having light armor crit and pen. And I don’t remember the last time a fight against those builds wasn’t just a boring stalemate.
But I see your point that I could drop Pariah for Moon Acolyte (for example) next patch if I feel the DoT and Dizzy dmg is no problem for me, but I’m unconvinced that would be the case atm.EU | PC | AD0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »Nerfing dots like Soul Trap is not the answer. Just because players weren't making threads about it every day on the forums doesn't mean that we should go back to having a bunch of useless spells that nobody uses.
No one is asking for Soul Trap to be nerfed. It was already nerfed.
I'm talking about all the people asking ZOS to "revert to Elsweyr". That would be a big nerf to Entropy and Soul Trap versus what we have on the Live server or the PTS. I get the feeling these same people don't want their class dots nerfed, of course.
I personally would rather keep the scalebreaker numbers however some adjustments to entropy and soul trap would be needed an idea is soul trap could just be a debuff skill as in increases damage dots to kind of thing so it’s worth using and entropy reduce the dot damage some so it isn’t as overbearing as it was0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »Nerfing dots like Soul Trap is not the answer. Just because players weren't making threads about it every day on the forums doesn't mean that we should go back to having a bunch of useless spells that nobody uses.
No one is asking for Soul Trap to be nerfed. It was already nerfed.
I'm talking about all the people asking ZOS to "revert to Elsweyr". That would be a big nerf to Entropy and Soul Trap versus what we have on the Live server or the PTS. I get the feeling these same people don't want their class dots nerfed, of course.
Everybody lived without soul trap and with utility enthropy for years and nobody objected. Reverting them to previous state will be most healthy move. Enthropy was a decent ability before.. now with this U24 nerf it is just useless PoS.0 -
OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »Dots overall should remain where they are on live however soul trap and entropy being buffed as they were is what created the problem. Also the initial counter to dots was buffing a couple of healing abilities vigor being one was nerfed and the main counter to negative effects was not buffed to help counter dots as in cost was not reduced
From PvP perspective, I'm not even sure current DoT damage is enough while the tanky build meta persists.
I spend most of my time in BGs and even in the no-CP context you have games timing out with teams around ~300 points despite players doing damage in the 1m-2m range. Because everyone is running high resists and healing is super strong. You ain't gonna kill those peeps with DoTS nerfed 30%, certainly not by just using spammables.
I felt that armor and defensive buffs (as well as healing) needed to be looked at before DoTs taking a hit. Because at the moment DoTs melt squishy builds, while tanky builds soldier on without problems and everyone goes tanky in PvP.
This is much deeper than you think. Many people wear Bloodspawn to resist dots and dizzy spammers. When it's nerf. People will understand that they need more damage and will begin to sacrifice something. Just as one of the chains of events.
Today on life server DK full tank use dots skills + dizzy and hits like a truck. Warden full tanky just uses Dizzy and hits like a truck.
Perhaps. But is the issue there the high damage of these builds or high mitigation/healing? Or the combination of those?
For me, these builds don’t hit hard at all outside their Onslaught timer. But that’s because I tanked up myself so even though I’m in light armor (5-2) I’m running Bloodspawn, Pariah, S&B backbar and 2 protective jewels. So I can be capped on resists while having light armor crit and pen. And I don’t remember the last time a fight against those builds wasn’t just a boring stalemate.
But I see your point that I could drop Pariah for Moon Acolyte (for example) next patch if I feel the DoT and Dizzy dmg is no problem for me, but I’m unconvinced that would be the case atm.
Yes, thanks, you understood me correctly. For example, I know for sure that in the next patch I can remove Blood spawn. I have already met people who are also ready to remove Blood spawn. This is not a panacea, but still.
Against one such build is not a problem to resist. When they stack it is very bad.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 10, 2019 1:53PM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭vesselwiththepestle wrote: »On live Soul Trap is still srong. It will be nerfed.
Nerfing dots so hard like it's done o PTS right now and we'll get several useless skills again.
So if DOTs were brought up to Elsweyr standard, we'd still be in a dot meta, wouldn't we?
I ask again, how much dps should a dot do comparable to direct damage spammables, so you'd use several dots, but you would still use a spammable, too?
Before dot meta this was done by having several dots really bad or non-existant, so you didn't have a choice.
With dot standards and so many (!) Dots you can slot it will probably be always either all dots or only as much as you need for utility (proccing enchant etc). The solution would be to reduce the amount of dots again. Then they don't need to be nerfed as much as it's done on PTS.
@vesselwiththepestle There are a few ways to limit the number of DoTs used in builds, even with many strong DoTs to choose from.
1. Make DoTs expensive. I don’t personally care for this option, but it’s easy to implement and seemingly part of the U24 design. A player can only incorporate as many DoTs into their rotation as they can sustain. Unfortunately the ideal number is looking to be 1 DoT in most cases (hail or wall), because skill costs are way overtuned on PTS and DoT damage is low.
2. Have different durations on DoTs. This has existed for as long as I’ve played ESO. There were 6s DoTs, 8s DoTs, 10s DoTs, 12s DoTs and they were unique and interesting. With a mix of timers rotations become more complicated, difficult, and dynamic the more you add, which limits the effectiveness of combining every DoT possible. The other option is to recast some DoTs early or late to get their timers to match others, but this also results in diminishing return, making each additional DoT less effective. The standardization of most DoTs to 10s in Scalebreaker removes the downside of combining several different DoTs. The obvious player response was to use their 10 skills slots and do a 10s rotation using 10 DoTs. There is no challenge in this, no creativity, no fun, and no skill.
3. Give good alternatives to DoTs. In Scalebreaker, Wardens did not need to slot 10 DoTs because Deep Fissure was a good skill that could be used 3 times in a 10s rotation, allowing 7 GCD’s for 7 DoTs. Sorcerers could also drop a few DoTs for a double barred pet, Crystal Frags, and Daedric Prey, leaving them room for maximum 6 DoTs. Templars benefited from Channeled Focus and Radiant Oppression, each earning a skill slot instead of a DoT. My point here is that it’s not an issue of just DoTs vs spammables. The skills that make builds interesting are those that take priority over a generic DoT because they are powerful, but cannot be spammed (executes, delayed damage, conditional procs, self buffs, unique enemy debuffs etc.). After these are given priority, the skill bars can be filled with DoTs and maybe one spammable, and the spammable is simply used to fill any holes in the rotation of better skills.Edited by WrathOfInnos on October 10, 2019 2:37PM5 -
sfpiesb14_ESO✭✭✭I really like having dots with different lengths. It makes the rotation more dynamic and fun and you have to somewhat keep track of the lengths of the dots. Some with 20s duration some with 10 s duration (just as an example) so each rotation you are casting different dots. Instead of what's on live which is 1,2,3,4,5, swap, 1,2,3,4,5 or what's proposed on PTS which is even worse 1, swap, 1,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 etc until wall/volley runs out repeat.
the 20 second dots should be stuff like entropy, barbed trap. and should do more damage per gcd (like maybe the current live damage ie 2.5x spammable) but they take a long time so its actually less actual dps.
Then you've got your 10 second dots (engulfing, embers, other class skills etc) which you reapply every rotation.
Then to screw things up and make the rotation interesting throw in some 15 second dots like wall, liquid lightning, eruption, etc. I think it would make gameplay more fun and dynamic. Keep dots strong but you can't just fill your bar with 10, 10s dots and do a dumb boring rotation.
This would make elite players who can manage a more complex rotation do more damage while not punishing not as good players. If a dot drops off or is cast early its not the end of the world.0