You've still completely missed the mark on DoT damage.

sfpiesb14_ESO

LiquidPony wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Nothing to add other than this was a fascinating discussion and extremely insightful. OPs tests may be flawed but they highlight the complexity of the issue and the responses have been great. Not just blindly bashing the devs and it didn’t turn into a nerf sorc/cloak/temp thread or mindless name calling.

The only people capable of running "perfect" tests in isolation work for ZOS. Certainly some of the data here could be extrapolated and analyzed to get at more exact values, but ... this isn't my job. And to be honest, if I'm going to have to spend that kind of time proving something that is so obvious to ZOS so they don't totally break their game ... well, I'll just go play something else.

ZOS has clearly failed to do the correct tests in isolation. Or at the very least their test expectations are entirely wrong.

But I'm totally bashing the devs. Just not blindly.

Didn’t mean to criticize your testing at all. I thought it was great and very interesting.

Bashing devs is what mmo players have been doing for 30 years now. You at least provided data, analysis, and started an interesting discussion with other seemingly knowledgeable people.

LiquidPony

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Nothing to add other than this was a fascinating discussion and extremely insightful. OPs tests may be flawed but they highlight the complexity of the issue and the responses have been great. Not just blindly bashing the devs and it didn’t turn into a nerf sorc/cloak/temp thread or mindless name calling.

The only people capable of running "perfect" tests in isolation work for ZOS. Certainly some of the data here could be extrapolated and analyzed to get at more exact values, but ... this isn't my job. And to be honest, if I'm going to have to spend that kind of time proving something that is so obvious to ZOS so they don't totally break their game ... well, I'll just go play something else.

ZOS has clearly failed to do the correct tests in isolation. Or at the very least their test expectations are entirely wrong.

But I'm totally bashing the devs. Just not blindly.

Didn’t mean to criticize your testing at all. I thought it was great and very interesting.

Bashing devs is what mmo players have been doing for 30 years now. You at least provided data, analysis, and started an interesting discussion with other seemingly knowledgeable people.

Feel free to criticize anyway!

I spent literally an hour setting this up and doing the parses. That's about as much as I was willing to put into it, because it was obvious from a few hours of testing across a variety of specs that DoTs are still just not strong enough.

I would love for someone else to pick up something they like/dislike/agree with/disagree with and do much more thorough testing.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

Thanks for your efforts. Seems clear in their current iteration simply not worth losing a skill slot for these.

colossalvoids

Not even sure are they that incompetent or just naive thinking that this lazy ''all up 20%'' is actually fixes anything or addresses feedback from people who apparently have better idea about their product.

They really need to start looking back on what was done to abilities since like ~ Morrowind and reasoning behind those changes, as they're too off track ‎now (no wonder being new team) while we're losing more and more class/skill identity and playstyle options with each patch.

jlb1705

LiquidPony wrote: »

We're quite literally at the point where putting down a ground DoT and spamming one or two skills does 99% as much DPS as a complex, well-timed rotation.

I recall a recent thread where somebody wanted a 1-bar build with a Maelstrom Staff. They have to be pretty excited about this patch.

sfpiesb14_ESO

I think the problem comes down to standardization. With all dots being basically the same damage/gcd and all spammables being the same damage/gcd it boils down to either running all dots or running only soammables with passive abilities. Once they buff dots up to the point where they’re better than spammables then we’re back into the dot meta and then they nerf dots again.

Standardization is a great place to START adjusting abilities and maybe that’s what they’re in the process of doing but if they are they haven’t been clear on that. What they should aim for is a mix of dots and passives with a spammable and a utility spell or 2 depending on the fight. How to do this I don’t know. My first inclination is to make class specific dots and melee dots deal more damage. Non class dots should deal less damage but have some utility (eg entropy on live). Then a passive ability like mage light and a utility ability like accelerate.

Also dots should deal more damage per cost than spammables and utility abilities that don’t do damage should be rather cheap.

LiquidPony

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem comes down to standardization. With all dots being basically the same damage/gcd and all spammables being the same damage/gcd it boils down to either running all dots or running only soammables with passive abilities. Once they buff dots up to the point where they’re better than spammables then we’re back into the dot meta and then they nerf dots again.

Standardization is a great place to START adjusting abilities and maybe that’s what they’re in the process of doing but if they are they haven’t been clear on that. What they should aim for is a mix of dots and passives with a spammable and a utility spell or 2 depending on the fight. How to do this I don’t know. My first inclination is to make class specific dots and melee dots deal more damage. Non class dots should deal less damage but have some utility (eg entropy on live). Then a passive ability like mage light and a utility ability like accelerate.

Also dots should deal more damage per cost than spammables and utility abilities that don’t do damage should be rather cheap.

They could just roll everything back to Elsweyr, which was a generally well-regarded patch that most people seemed to like.

The problem they introduced in Scalebreaker was too many DoTs. At least from a PvE perspective, it makes no difference if DoTs are 2.5x or 10x the power of a spammable because there are only so many you can use.

Take a "classic" magsorc: Liquid Lightning and Blockade were it, because the class has no other DoTs and there were no worthwhile generic DoTs. Fast-forward to Scalebreaker, now you've got ... Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, Scalding Rune, and Soul Trap all doing just as much damage as any other DoT. Suddenly it's better to drop everything else and just do whatever you can to keep all of those DoTs on target.

The problem was never DoT damage. This should be perfectly obvious because stamina builds continued to use the same balanced part spammable/part DoT rotations they always had, because stamina builds came out of Scalebreaker with the same number of DoTs they had before (they lost Caltrops and gained Soul Trap). The problem is the number of viable DoTs.

Bring back Elsweyr's DoT values. Stop the insanity.

Canned_Apples

Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.

LiquidPony

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.

What is a "generic" DoT?

What do you mean by "carry"?

And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.

This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?

Shantu

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is what happens when ZOS tries to fix something that was never a problem.

For 4 1/2 years, I dont recall any serious complaints regarding DoT damage, for PvE or PvP. There were only some annoyances that some of them, most notably Engulfing Flames and Spear Shards, the damage was lackluster. But for the most part, class DoTs were fine.

The ZOS had to fix them by standardizing all of the to follow the same formula (hooray for diversity!), removing the first tick on many of them (which makes it even harder to burst players down), which skewed things enough that they felt compelled to put a massive increase on all their damage (even though they were told it was too radical a change), and now with every PTS patch they're just throwing on massive nerfs and buffs to try and recapture the sweet spot the game already had before they tried to "fix" things. With all these changes, some abilities like Poison injection have had their mechanics altered and thus whatever % change ZOS decides upon will still result in a nerf from what it used to be able to do.

This is like a dog chasing it's tail. I know some people feel that with some of the buffs that ZOS is listening, but this sort of development cycle is not something that I think should be applauded.

Very insightful. I hope the devs are open enough to take this entire thread in.

I have worked as a software designer/developer for 23+ years in various environments. I've held positions ranging from programmer to lead software engineer. What we're seeing in the last few development cycles are classic symptoms of over-complicating issues while losing sight of core functionality. It's like when one member of a team comes up with a brilliant idea for new functionality in a piece of software the ends up being something that nobody wants or uses. Or worse yet, you take functioning software that people find valuable, interject it with a new paradigm of complex logic, and end up with reduced functionality that degrades performance and upsets users. Developers are typically pretty smart people, but they frequently aren't people who display a lot of common sense. They also tend to get much too personally locked up with their bad ideas.

The current issue is significantly complicated by the attempts to "balance" a structurally complex combat system in both PVP and PVE. The idea of "balance" is basically one of PVP. One might complain that PVE is not balanced because overland content is too easy. But try running vMoL sometime and tell me how easy PVE is. In any system that is in some part a vertical progression, there will always be some content that becomes easy. That's not a bad thing. The idea of "balance" in PVE is while vertical progression is achieved by increasing number of players, it becomes more about the challenge of designing more difficult content that is accessible to ALL players.

PVP is another matter entirely. Players have been protesting for years that attempts to balance the current combat system by making across-the-board changes to both PVE and PVP simply will not work. Well, guess what? It's not working. While attempting to improve one, you degrade another, and end up with a whack-a-mole design environment where you're constantly fixing issues that are created by fixing other issues. It's an endeavor that's setup for failure.

This entire paradigm of skill audit and balance of the current dual system is doomed to failure. Not because the people are not smart and talented, but because they become so locked into their vision that they lose perspective of what's good and bad for the core functionality of what they're working on. It happens all the time with software development teams. Unfortunately, my experience with developers is that once they get an idea in their head, it's very difficult to get them to reconsider. It usually results, either in part or in its entirety, to a demise of some sort. Successful teams are ones that are constantly open to criticism and re-evaluation of what they are doing. And this typically comes from truly listening to the users of their product.

This whole DOT fiasco, to our collective dismay, has been very revealing in all these regards.

Gnortranermara

It's a simple fix.

1) Use a 1.75x for non-class DOT's, and a 2x modifier for class DOT's. That'll be a 20% nerf from live for class abilities, and a 30% nerf to non-class abilities.

2) Bringing down top-end extreme elite DPS (100k+!!) is a valid goal and can be accomplished by nerfing light attacks. -25% is entirely sensible, maybe even more because light attacks got over-buffed by Wrobel before he left. This is the most effective way to reduce the gap between the casual floor and elite ceiling (at least without punishing those who struggled to acquire BiS trials gear).

Canned_Apples

LiquidPony wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.

What is a "generic" DoT?

What do you mean by "carry"?

And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.

This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?

Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root

Poison Injection already gets bonus damage as an execute

At least you tried (@LiquidPony)

sfpiesb14_ESO

LiquidPony wrote: »

The problem was never DoT damage. This should be perfectly obvious because stamina builds continued to use the same balanced part spammable/part DoT rotations they always had, because stamina builds came out of Scalebreaker with the same number of DoTs they had before (they lost Caltrops and gained Soul Trap). The problem is the number of viable DoTs.

Bring back Elsweyr's DoT values. Stop the insanity.

I think going back to Elsweyr would be a good start. The problem with staying there is then you have dead skills that just never get used by anyone. Playing this game since beta/ps4 release (with a 2 year gap cuz kids) I never once slotted soul trap. It just wasn’t worth ever using. Same thing with entropy though I think for a brief bit I may have slotted it while tanking due to the health bonus it once offered.

The devs don’t want dead skills they want everything to have some use at least some of the time. Which is why I think they buffed dots. The problem is that we can’t use all abilities (which I like). We have to make choices so some abilities that are slightly underperforming will just not get used.

LiquidPony

Canned_Apples wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.

What is a "generic" DoT?

What do you mean by "carry"?

And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.

This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?

Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root

Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute

At least you tried (@LiquidPony)

And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...

The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.

Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol

Degeneration doesn't return magicka.

The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.

jypcy

LiquidPony wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem comes down to standardization. With all dots being basically the same damage/gcd and all spammables being the same damage/gcd it boils down to either running all dots or running only soammables with passive abilities. Once they buff dots up to the point where they’re better than spammables then we’re back into the dot meta and then they nerf dots again.

Standardization is a great place to START adjusting abilities and maybe that’s what they’re in the process of doing but if they are they haven’t been clear on that. What they should aim for is a mix of dots and passives with a spammable and a utility spell or 2 depending on the fight. How to do this I don’t know. My first inclination is to make class specific dots and melee dots deal more damage. Non class dots should deal less damage but have some utility (eg entropy on live). Then a passive ability like mage light and a utility ability like accelerate.

Also dots should deal more damage per cost than spammables and utility abilities that don’t do damage should be rather cheap.

They could just roll everything back to Elsweyr, which was a generally well-regarded patch that most people seemed to like.

The problem they introduced in Scalebreaker was too many DoTs. At least from a PvE perspective, it makes no difference if DoTs are 2.5x or 10x the power of a spammable because there are only so many you can use.

Take a "classic" magsorc: Liquid Lightning and Blockade were it, because the class has no other DoTs and there were no worthwhile generic DoTs. Fast-forward to Scalebreaker, now you've got ... Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, Scalding Rune, and Soul Trap all doing just as much damage as any other DoT. Suddenly it's better to drop everything else and just do whatever you can to keep all of those DoTs on target.

The problem was never DoT damage. This should be perfectly obvious because stamina builds continued to use the same balanced part spammable/part DoT rotations they always had, because stamina builds came out of Scalebreaker with the same number of DoTs they had before (they lost Caltrops and gained Soul Trap). The problem is the number of viable DoTs.

Bring back Elsweyr's DoT values. Stop the insanity.

I’d correct that just by adding the issue is the number of viable dots with a short duration.

I’d imagine that if dots all did 2.5x the damage of a spammable per cast but over something like 20 seconds, then they’d still be worth slotting based on the damage per GCD. However, you’d want to have at least a spammable (maybe not any/few utility skills... that’d be another discussion) so that you have something to do while waiting for your dots to expire so that you can refresh them.

If you just ran all dots but had to refresh them halfway through their duration, I imagine you’re missing out on a lot of damage as opposed to dropping one of those dots to spam whip 3+ times between dot casts and refresh.

Canned_Apples

LiquidPony wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.

What is a "generic" DoT?

What do you mean by "carry"?

And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.

This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?

Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root

Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute

At least you tried (@LiquidPony)

And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...

The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.

Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage.

Degeneration doesn't return magicka.

The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility.

Sure, bro.
"99%"

LiquidPony

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

It's a simple fix.

1) Use a 1.75x for non-class DOT's, and a 2x modifier for class DOT's. That'll be a 20% nerf from live for class abilities, and a 30% nerf to non-class abilities.

2) Bringing down top-end extreme elite DPS (100k+!!) is a valid goal and can be accomplished by nerfing light attacks. -25% is entirely sensible, maybe even more because light attacks got over-buffed by Wrobel before he left. This is the most effective way to reduce the gap between the casual floor and elite ceiling (at least without punishing those who struggled to acquire BiS trials gear).

I for one don't agree that bringing down the "top-end extreme elite DPS" is really a valid goal.

Or at least, it's not a valid goal unless other considerations are made.

Any significant DPS nerf on the top end is going to really hurt the good-but-not-Hodor/MC teams that are out there trying to push achievements and scores.

Look at the PC/NA Sunspire leaderboards right now. There's like ... 3 teams that are actually even trying as far as I can tell. Kill DPS without adjusting the content or the achievements, what's that going to do to an end game community that appears to be teetering on the edge already?

WrathOfInnos

LiquidPony wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

It's a simple fix.

1) Use a 1.75x for non-class DOT's, and a 2x modifier for class DOT's. That'll be a 20% nerf from live for class abilities, and a 30% nerf to non-class abilities.

2) Bringing down top-end extreme elite DPS (100k+!!) is a valid goal and can be accomplished by nerfing light attacks. -25% is entirely sensible, maybe even more because light attacks got over-buffed by Wrobel before he left. This is the most effective way to reduce the gap between the casual floor and elite ceiling (at least without punishing those who struggled to acquire BiS trials gear).

I for one don't agree that bringing down the "top-end extreme elite DPS" is really a valid goal.

Or at least, it's not a valid goal unless other considerations are made.

Any significant DPS nerf on the top end is going to really hurt the good-but-not-Hodor/MC teams that are out there trying to push achievements and scores.

Look at the PC/NA Sunspire leaderboards right now. There's like ... 3 teams that are actually even trying as far as I can tell. Kill DPS without adjusting the content or the achievements, what's that going to do to an end game community that appears to be teetering on the edge already?

“Teetering on the edge” is generous, many already fell (jumped? Were pushed?) I’m just hoping that a solid Dragonhold patch can resuscitate the end game community.

LiquidPony

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

It's a simple fix.

1) Use a 1.75x for non-class DOT's, and a 2x modifier for class DOT's. That'll be a 20% nerf from live for class abilities, and a 30% nerf to non-class abilities.

2) Bringing down top-end extreme elite DPS (100k+!!) is a valid goal and can be accomplished by nerfing light attacks. -25% is entirely sensible, maybe even more because light attacks got over-buffed by Wrobel before he left. This is the most effective way to reduce the gap between the casual floor and elite ceiling (at least without punishing those who struggled to acquire BiS trials gear).

I for one don't agree that bringing down the "top-end extreme elite DPS" is really a valid goal.

Or at least, it's not a valid goal unless other considerations are made.

Any significant DPS nerf on the top end is going to really hurt the good-but-not-Hodor/MC teams that are out there trying to push achievements and scores.

Look at the PC/NA Sunspire leaderboards right now. There's like ... 3 teams that are actually even trying as far as I can tell. Kill DPS without adjusting the content or the achievements, what's that going to do to an end game community that appears to be teetering on the edge already?

“Teetering on the edge” is generous, many already fell (jumped? Were pushed?) I’m just hoping that a solid Dragonhold patch can resuscitate the end game community.

Nothing in Dragonhold is going to bring anyone back IMO. The opposite, really. Morale has not been great since the first PTS patch notes dropped and it's just been getting worse.

Usually we get people coming back around with new end game content, new game systems, new classes. We're not getting any of that here. We're getting a lump of coal.

Tannus15

LiquidPony wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem comes down to standardization. With all dots being basically the same damage/gcd and all spammables being the same damage/gcd it boils down to either running all dots or running only soammables with passive abilities. Once they buff dots up to the point where they’re better than spammables then we’re back into the dot meta and then they nerf dots again.

Standardization is a great place to START adjusting abilities and maybe that’s what they’re in the process of doing but if they are they haven’t been clear on that. What they should aim for is a mix of dots and passives with a spammable and a utility spell or 2 depending on the fight. How to do this I don’t know. My first inclination is to make class specific dots and melee dots deal more damage. Non class dots should deal less damage but have some utility (eg entropy on live). Then a passive ability like mage light and a utility ability like accelerate.

Also dots should deal more damage per cost than spammables and utility abilities that don’t do damage should be rather cheap.

They could just roll everything back to Elsweyr, which was a generally well-regarded patch that most people seemed to like.

The problem they introduced in Scalebreaker was too many DoTs. At least from a PvE perspective, it makes no difference if DoTs are 2.5x or 10x the power of a spammable because there are only so many you can use.

Take a "classic" magsorc: Liquid Lightning and Blockade were it, because the class has no other DoTs and there were no worthwhile generic DoTs. Fast-forward to Scalebreaker, now you've got ... Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, Scalding Rune, and Soul Trap all doing just as much damage as any other DoT. Suddenly it's better to drop everything else and just do whatever you can to keep all of those DoTs on target.

The problem was never DoT damage. This should be perfectly obvious because stamina builds continued to use the same balanced part spammable/part DoT rotations they always had, because stamina builds came out of Scalebreaker with the same number of DoTs they had before (they lost Caltrops and gained Soul Trap). The problem is the number of viable DoTs.

Bring back Elsweyr's DoT values. Stop the insanity.

I cannot emphasise enough how correct this is.

I like the concept of what they did, there were LOTS of dead skills that could have a place in a build, however they all got the same stats. Lots of damage.

I would keep reach as a good single target dot.

i'd nerf entropy and keep degeneration as a half dps dot with sustain and structured as a half dps dot with healing.
I'd make soul trap a half dps dot with some sort of utility. maybe minor ward?
i'd make scaling rune equivalent to barbed trap with minor force.

The worst thing they have done this patch is the insane cost of AOE abilities. It feels like they are balancing costs around parse food on the 21m dummy, not actual builds.

Kolzki

The OP gets an awesome from me purely for having pushed crit to 100% so that the tests can be done in 10 seconds rather than 21 mil of trial dummy. Hats off to you for a truely optimised parse.

Inklings

LiquidPony wrote: »

sfpiesb14_ESO wrote: »

Nothing to add other than this was a fascinating discussion and extremely insightful. OPs tests may be flawed but they highlight the complexity of the issue and the responses have been great. Not just blindly bashing the devs and it didn’t turn into a nerf sorc/cloak/temp thread or mindless name calling.

The only people capable of running "perfect" tests in isolation work for ZOS. Certainly some of the data here could be extrapolated and analyzed to get at more exact values, but ... this isn't my job. And to be honest, if I'm going to have to spend that kind of time proving something that is so obvious to ZOS so they don't totally break their game ... well, I'll just go play something else.

ZOS has clearly failed to do the correct tests in isolation. Or at the very least their test expectations are entirely wrong.

But I'm totally bashing the devs. Just not blindly.

LiquidPony wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

It's a simple fix.

1) Use a 1.75x for non-class DOT's, and a 2x modifier for class DOT's. That'll be a 20% nerf from live for class abilities, and a 30% nerf to non-class abilities.

2) Bringing down top-end extreme elite DPS (100k+!!) is a valid goal and can be accomplished by nerfing light attacks. -25% is entirely sensible, maybe even more because light attacks got over-buffed by Wrobel before he left. This is the most effective way to reduce the gap between the casual floor and elite ceiling (at least without punishing those who struggled to acquire BiS trials gear).

I for one don't agree that bringing down the "top-end extreme elite DPS" is really a valid goal.

Or at least, it's not a valid goal unless other considerations are made.

Any significant DPS nerf on the top end is going to really hurt the good-but-not-Hodor/MC teams that are out there trying to push achievements and scores.

Look at the PC/NA Sunspire leaderboards right now. There's like ... 3 teams that are actually even trying as far as I can tell. Kill DPS without adjusting the content or the achievements, what's that going to do to an end game community that appears to be teetering on the edge already?

“Teetering on the edge” is generous, many already fell (jumped? Were pushed?) I’m just hoping that a solid Dragonhold patch can resuscitate the end game community.

Nothing in Dragonhold is going to bring anyone back IMO. The opposite, really. Morale has not been great since the first PTS patch notes dropped and it's just been getting worse.

Usually we get people coming back around with new end game content, new game systems, new classes. We're not getting any of that here. We're getting a lump of coal.

I belonged to 4 raiding guilds all backed by a very large streaming community. At one point the most successful guild had 11 trails groups running independently of each other. Thanks to the changes made in the last 2 dlcs piled on top of performance issues that wait to get fixed only when a new DLC comes out, 3 of them have folded. The 4th is staying afloat only cause its taking in hemorrhaged members that still want to raid from the other 3 that cant sustain enough people to raid anymore.

My 5th guild is my own personal one that has one of the most notable crafting halls in the game. For over a year i have had to keep a waiting list of people who wanted to join my guild. I have always removed members who didnt log on for 30+ days to make room for that waiting list. I now have NO waiting list and room for 70 people to join the guild.

This audit could very well in the end be an amazing thing but its not worth it if this is the cost. I seriously hope they put a full stop to this soon and take a GIANT step back and look at what this is doing to the game,.

WreckfulAbandon

There's no need for a reduction of any DoT in the game to anything less than Elsweyr numbers when we still have Troll King, Hist Sap, Battalion Defender, Reactive, BRP resto/DW, etc in the game.

This last PTS cycle has been thoroughly demoralizing.

Skullstachio

@LiquidPony wrote: »

I want to start by quoting something that I think highlights why you've missed the mark, again, on DoTs:

In a future patch during this PTS cycle, we will be increasing the total damage of any Damage over Time abilities that were adjusted in PTS v5.2.0 by approximately 20% to reduce situations where many of the abilities felt difficult to maintain outside of nanosecond perfect rotation. This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers.

In response to much of your feedback, we have increased the standards of our Damage over Time abilities by 20% compared to the original pass in PTS v5.2.0 to better encompass the fact that there are many “dead-zones” of time where these abilities fall off before you can reapply them.

Ignoring the fact that your percentage math makes no sense at all, I'd like to pick on this implication that the only reason DoTs are underperforming is that people aren't skilled enough to have "nanosecond perfect rotations". That's hogwash. The reason that DoTs are underperforming is because you over-nerfed them.

"Nanosecond perfect rotations" are not the crux of the issue; that's just one small part. You're missing the point. Your DoT values are simply too low.

Here's a simple demonstration. I've created a PTS character and tried to reduce variance as much as possible. 100% crit rate, no glyphs or poisons, no proc sets.

Observation: DoTs suck
Hypothesis: On a stamblade, Rending Slashes is not worth using and I'm better off spamming Surprise Attack again
Experiment: Four setups, all using the same gear (5 x Leviathan, 5 x Hunding's Rage, 2 x NMG; Divines armor w/ Stam enchants; Infused jewelry w/ Weapon Damage enchants; Precise weapons; Thief Mundus; Lavafoot food; Weapon Power pots; CP evenly distributed in Thaum/MaA except in the final test).
1. Spam LA + Surprise Attack 10 times
2. LA + Rending Slashes then LA + Surprise Attack 9 times
3. Replace Rending Slashes with a Fighters Guild ability, repeat test #1
4. Optimize CP by taking it out of Thaum, repeat test #1
5. With the CP from test #4, test with Rending Slashes again

Results

Test 1 setup


Test 1


Test 2 setup


Test 2


Test 3 setup


Test 3


Test 4 setup


Test 4


Test 5 setup


Test 5

Analysis: In the most naive possible test, using Rending Slashes does result in slightly higher DPS (~3.12%). However, using more realistic test scenarios such as replacing Rending Slashes with a skill that grants a passive stat increase and optimizing CP around Direct Damage, higher DPS is achieved by simply spamming one skill. Note: because it's impossible to ensure that parses are all exactly the same duration, it's important to look at the total damage done and mean damage of each cast rather than simply comparing DPS.

Conclusion: Your DoT values are still wrong and it's not hard to see. I don't know what the correct DoT to spammable ratio should be, but what you've got now is wrong. It is not sufficient for DoTs to be marginally stronger than spammables; they need to be significantly stronger. Because, it's not just about "nanosecond perfect rotations". You also have to consider opportunity costs: I can simply slot some skill that grants a passive increase (Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Animal Companions, Assassination, Grave Lord, etc), I can better optimize CP if I reduce my DoT damage, there are fights with phases where DoTs simply stop working, etc.

I can agree that DoT's are underperforming even after the 20% buff of the 5.2.3 pts patch, it has become quite the problem for the community. As a matter of fact, there is a way to alleviate it but chances are it may not be taken into consideration.

Solution: While in PvP or dueling, Each Class has a Unique Buff(Warden Spirit, Dragonknight Spirit, etc.) affecting all the Class Skills associated with that class as well as any other skill lines as necessary, that can be fine tuned by ZOS based on PVP player feedback, making the necessary damage increases/decreases, healing adjustments, etc. without affecting those abilities in the PVE environment directly, allowing builds and other power fantasies to retain their “Class Identity” throughout the overland, group and Trial content, while also preventing either side from complaining as much in regards to either environment.

Nerhesi

Davadin wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Conclusion: ...is not sufficient for DoTs to be marginally stronger than spammables; they need to be significantly stronger.

disagree.

and this is coming from a stamDK with 56-points in Thaum.

i want both "stack-and-forgot" and burst combo both be viables.

so looking at individual skills, i want DoT that ticks marginally weaker than spammable, because they are inherently less risk.

For them to both viable, stack-and-forget-over-time needs to be absolutely stronger as the OP is saying.

It is a very simple formula:

You want slow and high damage
or
Fast and low damage (comparatively)

It's not like ESO is going to discover a new way of making DoTs work that no RPG has ever realised before. It is mathematics. You have to make something do significantly more damage if it will take significantly longer to do so. End of story.

DoTs need to do easily over double spammables. Especially in a game where you can easily be spammed in under 4 seconds..

Dottzgaming

This definitely changed my perspective a bit and opened my eyes to the fact that although the numbers may look ok on paper, in practice are still not quite there. Hope they take a look at this and understand there's still more work to be done. Awesome testing man, very thorough.

ZarkingFrued

Zalathorm wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Conclusion: Your DoT values are still wrong and it's not hard to see. I don't know what the correct DoT to spammable ratio should be, but what you've got now is wrong. It is not sufficient for DoTs to be marginally stronger than spammables; they need to be significantly stronger. Because, it's not just about "nanosecond perfect rotations". You also have to consider opportunity costs: I can simply slot some skill that grants a passive increase (Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Animal Companions, Assassination, Grave Lord, etc), I can better optimize CP if I reduce my DoT damage, there are fights with phases where DoTs simply stop working, etc.

Thank you for your thorough testing.

With this kind of evidence, it seems imperative that PTS is extended to allow for more testing and responsive number tweaking.

The only way to find what the right DoT to spammable ratio should be is through rigorous testing and feedback from players willing to do it. Clearly if ZOS knew how to assess the issue, it would have been fixed properly from patch 5.0.0.

While you're right, you also know ZOS would never extend PTS testing. That's what Live is. A never ending PTS test. Let's be honest with ourselves here.

BattleAxe

In regards to dots I think the solution in my opinion isn’t to nerf them but make purge more efficient as In purge prioritize dots lower the cost of purge this will help pvp mostly. Pve dots are strong but ur sacrificing burst for the slower burn so solution could be up for damage and massively up its duration so spotting less dots will be more appealing as you have a strong and long duration dot. Could even throw in skills that consume the duration of the dot dealing it’s damage instantly just an idea but would create unique and interesting gameplay

Elwendryll

Stamsorc here. I spent hours and hours on the PTS finding and practicing a lot of different things to get the best dps possible with a build and rotation I like.
It included finding the average damage per cast of every single one of my abilities to find out when to stop using them over Executioner. This was done taking into account the Amplitude passive and my single Bloodthirsty Jewelry.

For context:
My end results were 80k dps, with a 2H Battle axe front (Infused weapon damage). Master DW back (Infused poison and Disease)

Before that week, Hurricane and Rending Slashes were worth using until 20%, Deadly Cloak until the end (I included both backbar enchants damage into the total damage of a cast). Since that week, I still drop hurricane at 20%, but Rending Slashes is now worth using until the end of the parse too.

So, my first observation is...
The DoTs I used are fine, at least, because they're always better than any other options, as long as they can run their full duration. I kept using the barbed trap for utility.

My second observation is...
Constellation is actively trying to sabotage my parses. I came up with a CP distribution based on feeling, and adjusted according to Constellation after reaching the best parse I could at that time. Then did some other parses, and used constellation again with my new best parse etc... Except there was never a new best parse. My original CP distribution made without addon was the best results I had, because Constellation doesn't make the damage repartition appropriately. For instance, it doesn't know bound armaments. For some reason it also told me to put some points on a wrong value (Not on a jump point), like 52 points in crit damage when 51 points is a round 19% value.

Conclusion, not all DoTs are worth using, but for my character build at least, the 4 DoTs I used were worth it for most of the fight. The only DoT I stop using even if it can reach its full duration is hurricane at 20%.

However, I agree that some DoTs are not worth using at all. The Bow bar doesn't feel good at all. I capped at 67.5k dps with a Bow/Bow build. There is a good reason why my melee rotation uses a DW backbar and not a bow Backbar...

Masel

Forwarded to the devs