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You've still completely missed the mark on DoT damage.
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elwendryll wrote: »Stamsorc here. I spent hours and hours on the PTS finding and practicing a lot of different things to get the best dps possible with a build and rotation I like.
It included finding the average damage per cast of every single one of my abilities to find out when to stop using them over Executioner. This was done taking into account the Amplitude passive and my single Bloodthirsty Jewelry.
For context:
My end results were 80k dps, with a 2H Battle axe front (Infused weapon damage). Master DW back (Infused poison and Disease)
Before that week, Hurricane and Rending Slashes were worth using until 20%, Deadly Cloak until the end (I included both backbar enchants damage into the total damage of a cast). Since that week, I still drop hurricane at 20%, but Rending Slashes is now worth using until the end of the parse too.
So, my first observation is...
The DoTs I used are fine, at least, because they're always better than any other options, as long as they can run their full duration. I kept using the barbed trap for utility.
My second observation is...
Constellation is actively trying to sabotage my parses. I came up with a CP distribution based on feeling, and adjusted according to Constellation after reaching the best parse I could at that time. Then did some other parses, and used constellation again with my new best parse etc... Except there was never a new best parse. My original CP distribution made without addon was the best results I had, because Constellation doesn't make the damage repartition appropriately. For instance, it doesn't know bound armaments. For some reason it also told me to put some points on a wrong value (Not on a jump point), like 52 points in crit damage when 51 points is a round 19% value.
Conclusion, not all DoTs are worth using, but for my character build at least, the 4 DoTs I used were worth it for most of the figth. The only DoT I stop using even if it can reach its full duration is hurricane at 20%.
However, I agree that some DoTs are not worth using at all. The Bow bar doesn't feel good at all. I capped at 67.5k dps with a Bow/Bow build. There is a good reason why my melee rotation uses a DW backbar and not a bow Backbar...
@Elwendryll Constellations is telling you to put an extra CP in, e.g., 52 instead of 51, because those nice round numbers don't actually work. That "19%" is actually 18.999% or something under the covers. Test it, you'll see.
And also, yes. Constellations isn't immediately updated so it doesn't always have the latest skill IDs. You have to adjust some values manually.
The DW backbar (both infused?) setup with an infused frontbar is ... unorthodox. I imagine Deadly Cloak is worth running only because you're relying on it to proc your backbar enchants. It's not worth running for the damage it does alone, especially given the cost.
And obviously Rending Slashes is worth using when you're running Master DW. But this isn't an optimal setup.1 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am not opposed to have DoTs being a little stronger, but one has to remember that DoTs should not be too strong in PvP.
This is a case where it is very difficult to balance for both PvE and PvP.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore1 -
Elwendryll✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Elwendryll wrote: »Stamsorc here. I spent hours and hours on the PTS finding and practicing a lot of different things to get the best dps possible with a build and rotation I like.
It included finding the average damage per cast of every single one of my abilities to find out when to stop using them over Executioner. This was done taking into account the Amplitude passive and my single Bloodthirsty Jewelry.
For context:
My end results were 80k dps, with a 2H Battle axe front (Infused weapon damage). Master DW back (Infused poison and Disease)
Before that week, Hurricane and Rending Slashes were worth using until 20%, Deadly Cloak until the end (I included both backbar enchants damage into the total damage of a cast). Since that week, I still drop hurricane at 20%, but Rending Slashes is now worth using until the end of the parse too.
So, my first observation is...
The DoTs I used are fine, at least, because they're always better than any other options, as long as they can run their full duration. I kept using the barbed trap for utility.
My second observation is...
Constellation is actively trying to sabotage my parses. I came up with a CP distribution based on feeling, and adjusted according to Constellation after reaching the best parse I could at that time. Then did some other parses, and used constellation again with my new best parse etc... Except there was never a new best parse. My original CP distribution made without addon was the best results I had, because Constellation doesn't make the damage repartition appropriately. For instance, it doesn't know bound armaments. For some reason it also told me to put some points on a wrong value (Not on a jump point), like 52 points in crit damage when 51 points is a round 19% value.
Conclusion, not all DoTs are worth using, but for my character build at least, the 4 DoTs I used were worth it for most of the figth. The only DoT I stop using even if it can reach its full duration is hurricane at 20%.
However, I agree that some DoTs are not worth using at all. The Bow bar doesn't feel good at all. I capped at 67.5k dps with a Bow/Bow build. There is a good reason why my melee rotation uses a DW backbar and not a bow Backbar...
@Elwendryll Constellations is telling you to put an extra CP in, e.g., 52 instead of 51, because those nice round numbers don't actually work. That "19%" is actually 18.999% or something under the covers. Test it, you'll see.
And also, yes. Constellations isn't immediately updated so it doesn't always have the latest skill IDs. You have to adjust some values manually.
The DW backbar (both infused?) setup with an infused frontbar is ... unorthodox. I imagine Deadly Cloak is worth running only because you're relying on it to proc your backbar enchants. It's not worth running for the damage it does alone, especially given the cost.
And obviously Rending Slashes is worth using when you're running Master DW. But this isn't an optimal setup.
Deadly cloak is for the enchant procs yes, but also because I wanted major evasion, if it was only for the damage I'm not sure it would have its place on my bar. I went double infused to make the most out of it.
Anyway. I didn't go for an optimal dps setup, but for something that could match my playstyle and reach 80k dps, because it's what I can do on live, with my current unoptimal setup. To me, running deadly cloak backbar just because I like it is a valid reason, and I built around it. Just to expose my reasoning, I know it's not optimal from an absolute point of view. I just tried to optimize a specific rotation, that isn't optimal itself.
PC - EU - France - AD
Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.
All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH0 -
Joy_Division wrote: »This is what happens when ZOS tries to fix something that was never a problem.
For 4 1/2 years, I dont recall any serious complaints regarding DoT damage, for PvE or PvP. There were only some annoyances that some of them, most notably Engulfing Flames and Spear Shards, the damage was lackluster. But for the most part, class DoTs were fine.
The ZOS had to fix them by standardizing all of the to follow the same formula (hooray for diversity!), removing the first tick on many of them (which makes it even harder to burst players down), which skewed things enough that they felt compelled to put a massive increase on all their damage (even though they were told it was too radical a change), and now with every PTS patch they're just throwing on massive nerfs and buffs to try and recapture the sweet spot the game already had before they tried to "fix" things. With all these changes, some abilities like Poison injection have had their mechanics altered and thus whatever % change ZOS decides upon will still result in a nerf from what it used to be able to do.
This is like a dog chasing it's tail. I know some people feel that with some of the buffs that ZOS is listening, but this sort of development cycle is not something that I think should be applauded.
Very insightful. I hope the devs are open enough to take this entire thread in.
I have worked as a software designer/developer for 23+ years in various environments. I've held positions ranging from programmer to lead software engineer. What we're seeing in the last few development cycles are classic symptoms of over-complicating issues while losing sight of core functionality. It's like when one member of a team comes up with a brilliant idea for new functionality in a piece of software the ends up being something that nobody wants or uses. Or worse yet, you take functioning software that people find valuable, interject it with a new paradigm of complex logic, and end up with reduced functionality that degrades performance and upsets users. Developers are typically pretty smart people, but they frequently aren't people who display a lot of common sense. They also tend to get much too personally locked up with their bad ideas.
The current issue is significantly complicated by the attempts to "balance" a structurally complex combat system in both PVP and PVE. The idea of "balance" is basically one of PVP. One might complain that PVE is not balanced because overland content is too easy. But try running vMoL sometime and tell me how easy PVE is. In any system that is in some part a vertical progression, there will always be some content that becomes easy. That's not a bad thing. The idea of "balance" in PVE is while vertical progression is achieved by increasing number of players, it becomes more about the challenge of designing more difficult content that is accessible to ALL players.
PVP is another matter entirely. Players have been protesting for years that attempts to balance the current combat system by making across-the-board changes to both PVE and PVP simply will not work. Well, guess what? It's not working. While attempting to improve one, you degrade another, and end up with a whack-a-mole design environment where you're constantly fixing issues that are created by fixing other issues. It's an endeavor that's setup for failure.
This entire paradigm of skill audit and balance of the current dual system is doomed to failure. Not because the people are not smart and talented, but because they become so locked into their vision that they lose perspective of what's good and bad for the core functionality of what they're working on. It happens all the time with software development teams. Unfortunately, my experience with developers is that once they get an idea in their head, it's very difficult to get them to reconsider. It usually results, either in part or in its entirety, to a demise of some sort. Successful teams are ones that are constantly open to criticism and re-evaluation of what they are doing. And this typically comes from truly listening to the users of their product.
This whole DOT fiasco, to our collective dismay, has been very revealing in all these regards.
I'm happy for you. I worked with people for a long time. It seems to me that you just take the changes associated with the game to heart. Life is multifaceted.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on October 9, 2019 10:05AM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.Edited by LiquidPony on October 10, 2019 12:48AM5 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
And in execute poison injection is competing with spammable executes (if you have one) that will be a better use of a gcd. Otherwise dots seem to be mostly useful for any buffs/debuffs they bring and not primarily as damage skills. The exception are dots that have extremely long durations that result in a high total damage per cast.0 -
silver1surfer69✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »I want to start by quoting something that I think highlights why you've missed the mark, again, on DoTs:In a future patch during this PTS cycle, we will be increasing the total damage of any Damage over Time abilities that were adjusted in PTS v5.2.0 by approximately 20% to reduce situations where many of the abilities felt difficult to maintain outside of nanosecond perfect rotation. This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers.In response to much of your feedback, we have increased the standards of our Damage over Time abilities by 20% compared to the original pass in PTS v5.2.0 to better encompass the fact that there are many “dead-zones” of time where these abilities fall off before you can reapply them.
Ignoring the fact that your percentage math makes no sense at all, I'd like to pick on this implication that the only reason DoTs are underperforming is that people aren't skilled enough to have "nanosecond perfect rotations". That's hogwash. The reason that DoTs are underperforming is because you over-nerfed them.
"Nanosecond perfect rotations" are not the crux of the issue; that's just one small part. You're missing the point. Your DoT values are simply too low.
Here's a simple demonstration. I've created a PTS character and tried to reduce variance as much as possible. 100% crit rate, no glyphs or poisons, no proc sets.
Observation: DoTs suck
Hypothesis: On a stamblade, Rending Slashes is not worth using and I'm better off spamming Surprise Attack again
Experiment: Four setups, all using the same gear (5 x Leviathan, 5 x Hunding's Rage, 2 x NMG; Divines armor w/ Stam enchants; Infused jewelry w/ Weapon Damage enchants; Precise weapons; Thief Mundus; Lavafoot food; Weapon Power pots; CP evenly distributed in Thaum/MaA except in the final test).
1. Spam LA + Surprise Attack 10 times
2. LA + Rending Slashes then LA + Surprise Attack 9 times
3. Replace Rending Slashes with a Fighters Guild ability, repeat test #1
4. Optimize CP by taking it out of Thaum, repeat test #1
5. With the CP from test #4, test with Rending Slashes again
Results
Test 1 setup
Test 1
Test 2 setup
Test 2
Test 3 setup
Test 3
Test 4 setup
Test 4
Test 5 setup
Test 5
Analysis: In the most naive possible test, using Rending Slashes does result in slightly higher DPS (~3.12%). However, using more realistic test scenarios such as replacing Rending Slashes with a skill that grants a passive stat increase and optimizing CP around Direct Damage, higher DPS is achieved by simply spamming one skill. Note: because it's impossible to ensure that parses are all exactly the same duration, it's important to look at the total damage done and mean damage of each cast rather than simply comparing DPS.
Conclusion: Your DoT values are still wrong and it's not hard to see. I don't know what the correct DoT to spammable ratio should be, but what you've got now is wrong. It is not sufficient for DoTs to be marginally stronger than spammables; they need to be significantly stronger. Because, it's not just about "nanosecond perfect rotations". You also have to consider opportunity costs: I can simply slot some skill that grants a passive increase (Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Animal Companions, Assassination, Grave Lord, etc), I can better optimize CP if I reduce my DoT damage, there are fights with phases where DoTs simply stop working, etc.
U need to se that there is pve and pvp. Both need to satisfy the players. Pve wise what u say might be correct but pvp wise totally not. Dots are way too op in pvp atm. I believe pvp combat shows better what is unbalanced and that needs to be attended for the whole game then.PC/EU
Starstréam - NB, Loveknight - HybridDK (4*), Stahlstrahlenreiter - StamDen, Azgul Grahl Bashrugk - HybridSorc (5*), Tínúvíél - StamCro, Thógard - StamPlar3 -
silver1surfer69 wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »I want to start by quoting something that I think highlights why you've missed the mark, again, on DoTs:In a future patch during this PTS cycle, we will be increasing the total damage of any Damage over Time abilities that were adjusted in PTS v5.2.0 by approximately 20% to reduce situations where many of the abilities felt difficult to maintain outside of nanosecond perfect rotation. This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers.In response to much of your feedback, we have increased the standards of our Damage over Time abilities by 20% compared to the original pass in PTS v5.2.0 to better encompass the fact that there are many “dead-zones” of time where these abilities fall off before you can reapply them.
Ignoring the fact that your percentage math makes no sense at all, I'd like to pick on this implication that the only reason DoTs are underperforming is that people aren't skilled enough to have "nanosecond perfect rotations". That's hogwash. The reason that DoTs are underperforming is because you over-nerfed them.
"Nanosecond perfect rotations" are not the crux of the issue; that's just one small part. You're missing the point. Your DoT values are simply too low.
Here's a simple demonstration. I've created a PTS character and tried to reduce variance as much as possible. 100% crit rate, no glyphs or poisons, no proc sets.
Observation: DoTs suck
Hypothesis: On a stamblade, Rending Slashes is not worth using and I'm better off spamming Surprise Attack again
Experiment: Four setups, all using the same gear (5 x Leviathan, 5 x Hunding's Rage, 2 x NMG; Divines armor w/ Stam enchants; Infused jewelry w/ Weapon Damage enchants; Precise weapons; Thief Mundus; Lavafoot food; Weapon Power pots; CP evenly distributed in Thaum/MaA except in the final test).
1. Spam LA + Surprise Attack 10 times
2. LA + Rending Slashes then LA + Surprise Attack 9 times
3. Replace Rending Slashes with a Fighters Guild ability, repeat test #1
4. Optimize CP by taking it out of Thaum, repeat test #1
5. With the CP from test #4, test with Rending Slashes again
Results
Test 1 setup
Test 1
Test 2 setup
Test 2
Test 3 setup
Test 3
Test 4 setup
Test 4
Test 5 setup
Test 5
Analysis: In the most naive possible test, using Rending Slashes does result in slightly higher DPS (~3.12%). However, using more realistic test scenarios such as replacing Rending Slashes with a skill that grants a passive stat increase and optimizing CP around Direct Damage, higher DPS is achieved by simply spamming one skill. Note: because it's impossible to ensure that parses are all exactly the same duration, it's important to look at the total damage done and mean damage of each cast rather than simply comparing DPS.
Conclusion: Your DoT values are still wrong and it's not hard to see. I don't know what the correct DoT to spammable ratio should be, but what you've got now is wrong. It is not sufficient for DoTs to be marginally stronger than spammables; they need to be significantly stronger. Because, it's not just about "nanosecond perfect rotations". You also have to consider opportunity costs: I can simply slot some skill that grants a passive increase (Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Animal Companions, Assassination, Grave Lord, etc), I can better optimize CP if I reduce my DoT damage, there are fights with phases where DoTs simply stop working, etc.
U need to se that there is pve and pvp. Both need to satisfy the players. Pve wise what u say might be correct but pvp wise totally not. Dots are way too op in pvp atm. I believe pvp combat shows better what is unbalanced and that needs to be attended for the whole game then.
You are absolutely right I completely agree with you.1 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭I am not opposed to have DoTs being a little stronger, but one has to remember that DoTs should not be too strong in PvP.
This is incorrect. DoTs need to be an alternative method to killing someone in PvP than just CC-burst-ult.
People opposed to dots need to realise how (badly) unique ESO is in terms of PVP in that it offers only 1 build. The great dps-great-sustain-great-burst build. If you want variety, class identity, and a generally expanded Meta- you need different ways to be effective.
You need to be able kill people with DOTs and just attrition/sustain DPS without burst.
You need to be able to kill people with the traditional CC-burst DPS.
You need to be able to have meanginful tank in pvp
You need meaningful dedicated healing in PvP.
You need burst-DPS to not be able to sustain themselves... etc
Basically you need to up-turn the unskilled, muscle memory pvp we've all been doing of weave/cancel/bash... burstwindowccult.. oh didnt work? thats ok I can try again in 15-30 seconds because I have great sustain of course!
That garbage has to stop. This game has the potential to have sooo many end-game-options but it is currently a total illusion as there is really only 1 end game option: Self-Sustaining-Burst-DPS9 -
vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭How much dps should a dot do, so you would use the dots, but you would still use spammables?
I think spammables should offer something beside pure dps, so you'd use them anyway. ZOS is trying to do that.
However, when dots are so weak that you just go with spammables only, then something is seriously wrong.
You need also take into account that in trash fights your dots probably won't run the full length.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
And in execute poison injection is competing with spammable executes (if you have one) that will be a better use of a gcd. Otherwise dots seem to be mostly useful for any buffs/debuffs they bring and not primarily as damage skills. The exception are dots that have extremely long durations that result in a high total damage per cast.
I'm looking at a 21m parse right now.
Max Poison Injection tick: 22,409
Max Executioner hit: 127,453
Yes, it is worth casting in execute and not really otherwise.Edited by LiquidPony on October 9, 2019 1:54PM1 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
And in execute poison injection is competing with spammable executes (if you have one) that will be a better use of a gcd. Otherwise dots seem to be mostly useful for any buffs/debuffs they bring and not primarily as damage skills. The exception are dots that have extremely long durations that result in a high total damage per cast.
I'm looking at a 21m parse right now.
Max Poison Injection tick: 22,409
Max Executioner hit: 127,453
Yes, it is worth casting in execute and not really otherwise.
Interesting. Good to hear that it’s not completely redundant.0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That you for doing these parses!
Maybe I am just imagining things but on this patch there seems to be a lot less people doing them. A troubling sign, I think.2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That you for doing these parses!
Maybe I am just imagining things but on this patch there seems to be a lot less people doing them. A troubling sign, I think.
This week is the first worth testing, previous was wip due to worst ever planning and not thought through changes. There are lots of parses made afaik in those two days, but surely less people are interested in it now.2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
/EDIT: For the record I am operating/thinking within bounds ZoS set. I dont see how damage buff on DoTs wouldnt cause DoT centric rotation to win and I see that in current theme rotation using some DoTs are definitely the way to go so its not the other extreme either. I dont think this can in any way improve as long the only thing ZoS does/people talk about are damage values of DoTs.Edited by SodanTok on October 9, 2019 4:44PM0 -
Zalathorm✭✭✭✭I think a key point that the OP made was the real problem was not the strength of dots on live, it was how many dots are now available.
Reduce the amount of dots, make the remaining stronger, and you get usable dots but not dot centric rotations.
Even better if you focus your efforts on class skill line dots / aoe dots. Then you solve some class identity issues along with buffing dots.
Class dots and classless dots should have different power formulas.3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
/EDIT: For the record I am operating/thinking within bounds ZoS set. I dont see how damage buff on DoTs wouldnt cause DoT centric rotation to win and I see that in current theme rotation using some DoTs are definitely the way to go so its not the other extreme either. I dont think this can in any way improve as long the only thing ZoS does/people talk about are damage values of DoTs.
I don’t think anyone is saying that a single cast of a spammable is inherently more damage than a single cast of a DoT, in fact the DoTs are balanced to be about 1.5X a spammable. However this gap closes, and still favors one cast of a spammable over one cast of a DoT when you consider:
- Removing the DoT leaves a bar space for a passive (Inner Light, Bound Aegis, FG or MG skills, many class skills)
- Spammables cannot lose part of their damage to enemy movement, invulnerability, or purging
- The meta CP spread for Dragonhold is shifted far into Master at Arms and away from Thaumaturge
- Fewer DoTs in a dynamic rotation makes perfect uptime on each one easier, each additional DoT makes individual DoT uptime worse
- Spammables take place on the front bar, where stats are better due to additional set bonuses, which makes them hit harder and increases front bar uptime in general
- DoTs are expensive, especially the AoE DoTs, which necessitates building more sustain and less damage
Some of these are hard to quantify, but the OP has demonstrated in a very clear example that the end result is that DoTs are underpowered. And that example did not even take into account every bullet point I listed, in most real combat scenarios there will be even more of a bias toward direct damage abilities.4 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
Edited by LiquidPony on October 9, 2019 5:52PM1 -
echo2omega✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »The reason that DoTs are underperforming is because you over-nerfed them.
2 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Test 1 hit 201k total damage
Test 2 - 209.5k total damage
Test 3 - 203.6k total damage
Test 4 - 222.2k total damage
The difference between test 2&3 is 2.8%, and it would have been a whole lot closer on PTS 5.2.0, like maybe 1%.
And test 4 has 100% direct damage. Direct damage is kind of a Nightblade-leaning thing, and physical weapon expert is buffing a huge portion of the parse compared to what you'd get on a normal DPS test.
You could just as easily slot an axe, use flurry as a spammable and go the other way with Thaumaturge, especially with oher classes that lean on their class DOTs. Some of the dots would be a lot harder to pass up on those builds, which could be cast aside on direct damage builds. All I know is my Nightblade is hitting much closer to my DK on the PTS, still not there yet, and each is using opposite damage styles instead of going one-sided on Thaumaturge like it is on live.
Except that in most cases there is no point in using Flurry; you'll be better served by switching to 2H and using Wrecking Blow/Executioner so that you can continue optimizing CP towards Direct Damage.
vMA DW is still garbage, so there's no benefit to going Flurry to enable that. Except *maybe* on a stamDK. Every other class is going to want to use their class spammable or Wrecking Blow + Executioner. And even on a stamDK ... if you're the only one you'll probably be using Stone Fist for the Stagger proc, so even that's a scratch.
Do a bunch of full parses on the raid dummy, with DoTs, and then let Constellations optimize your CP for you. Eventually you'll drop most DoTs and move most of your points out of Thaumaturge.
I just threw together a stamsorc on the PTS, I'm not at all used to playing them by the way. First I tried a similar DOT setup as my Dragonknight with a monster set, deadly strikes and relequen, slotted a bunch of dots and immediately got the same DPS I get on the DK.
Then I tried something similar to what you've been saying. Wrecking blow, executioner, left on barbed trap and bound armaments on front bar, slotted the clanfear. Swapped to perfect Lokke front bar, maesltrom bow back bar, monster set, swapped to 22% into Master at Arms, added a little in physical weapon expert and left 9% thaumaturge. DPS is looking really crappy, like 20% less dps kind of crappy, what else am I leaving out?0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bladerunner1 wrote: »Test 1 hit 201k total damage
Test 2 - 209.5k total damage
Test 3 - 203.6k total damage
Test 4 - 222.2k total damage
The difference between test 2&3 is 2.8%, and it would have been a whole lot closer on PTS 5.2.0, like maybe 1%.
And test 4 has 100% direct damage. Direct damage is kind of a Nightblade-leaning thing, and physical weapon expert is buffing a huge portion of the parse compared to what you'd get on a normal DPS test.
You could just as easily slot an axe, use flurry as a spammable and go the other way with Thaumaturge, especially with oher classes that lean on their class DOTs. Some of the dots would be a lot harder to pass up on those builds, which could be cast aside on direct damage builds. All I know is my Nightblade is hitting much closer to my DK on the PTS, still not there yet, and each is using opposite damage styles instead of going one-sided on Thaumaturge like it is on live.
Except that in most cases there is no point in using Flurry; you'll be better served by switching to 2H and using Wrecking Blow/Executioner so that you can continue optimizing CP towards Direct Damage.
vMA DW is still garbage, so there's no benefit to going Flurry to enable that. Except *maybe* on a stamDK. Every other class is going to want to use their class spammable or Wrecking Blow + Executioner. And even on a stamDK ... if you're the only one you'll probably be using Stone Fist for the Stagger proc, so even that's a scratch.
Do a bunch of full parses on the raid dummy, with DoTs, and then let Constellations optimize your CP for you. Eventually you'll drop most DoTs and move most of your points out of Thaumaturge.
I just threw together a stamsorc on the PTS, I'm not at all used to playing them by the way. First I tried a similar DOT setup as my Dragonknight with a monster set, deadly strikes and relequen, slotted a bunch of dots and immediately got the same DPS I get on the DK.
Then I tried something similar to what you've been saying. Wrecking blow, executioner, left on barbed trap and bound armaments on front bar, slotted the clanfear. Swapped to perfect Lokke front bar, maesltrom bow back bar, monster set, swapped to 22% into Master at Arms, added a little in physical weapon expert and left 9% thaumaturge. DPS is looking really crappy, like 20% less dps kind of crappy, what else am I leaving out?
I have no idea without seeing your CMX parses and/or Superstar/CMX build info.
I've seen numerous 88-90k stamsorc parses in Rele/Lokke/Maw using only Poison Injection or no DoTs at all (other than Hurricane + Hail + Trap).
*Edit: I just logged on and did one quick parse without optimizing anything. This is Rele/Lokke/Maw, just Hail + Trap + Hurricane + Wrecking Blow spam until execute (and Bound Armaments procs):
Also have to note that I think the fact that I cast a spammable/execute/proc (Wrecking Blow, Executioner, Bound Armaments) 167 times in a 238 second parse is hilarious. Literally 70% of my casts.Edited by LiquidPony on October 9, 2019 6:33PM0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further
Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps. 1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Canned_Apples wrote: »Generic dots shouldn't carry you, they should focus on utility.
What is a "generic" DoT?
What do you mean by "carry"?
And no, they should not focus on utility, because they are not utility skills. Venom Arrow is a utility skill. Shrouded Daggers is a utility skill. Poison injection is not, it is a DPS skill. Rending slashes is not, it is a DPS skill.
This is a bad take. Where's my downvote button?
Rending=Snare
Blood Craze=HoT
Degeneration= Magicka Return
Stuctured Entropy=HoT
Trap Beast=Minor Force/Root
Poison Injection already gets bonus damage for an execute
At least you tried (@LiquidPony)
And in this week's episode of "I only PvP and can't be bothered to think about the other 99% of the game" ...
The snare on Rending Slashes is entirely useless in PvE and we don't need the Blood Craze HoT.
Poison Injection is still a garbage skill despite the execute damage. And imagine thinking that execute damage makes a skill a "utility skill". Is Killer's Blade a utility skill now, too? Is Jesus Beam? lol
Degeneration doesn't return magicka.
The only one of these that actually has any PvE utility is Trap Beast, which is also the weakest DoT of the bunch and, unsurprisingly, is only worth using because it does actually have utility. If there was another reliable source of Minor Force (say, Twilight Remedy since IA is probably a dead set now), we'd drop Barbed Trap too.
I still have issue with some of your conclusions from all of this. For one Poison Injection, skill used by any build all the time (not just in execute) is rated 'hot garbage' by you even tho preexecute part is now weaker only about 13% than in Elsweyr. Thats not make or break difference. Furthermore along with barbed trap its one of highest damage per GCD skill in game in execute (bar real executes). I wonder how being one of strongest dots (in execute being worth around 3 GCD) makes it hot garbage. My only theory other than wrong testing methods is that the ~400 weapon damage difference between frontbar and backbar is cause of this. In that case, we are talking different issue, arent we? Backbar lack of power and single target dots being snap of that power has way way bigger impact than any of your raised issues or testing methods regarding CP distribution or swapping skills for passive ones. Something ZoS should look into more.
Do an actual parse and tell me how much damage Poison Injection does. Even on a stamnecro with +15% DoT damage, on a raid dummy, the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS. It just barely crossed the line to worth running with the +33% buff this patch. It's probably not worth casting *until* its execute scaling ramps up.
And Poison Injection isn't a snapshot skill. It updates dynamically.
1. Poison Injection is snapshot skill. Behavior where it wasnt (introduced after Morrowind) was removed probably year ago.
2. Do you count just the DoT or also the direct part of it? Okay stupid question since you wouldnt do this mistake, but even at 2.5k DPS (under 14s rotation I assume meaning with only 70% uptime) its more than any regular spammable would bring.
I am not trying to invalidate your or other's people tests and I realize that my testing conditions (always bow/bow) are little different but bar the mentioned part (difference between backbar and mainbar which is nonexistant much on bow/bow) all DoTs do 2.5k DPS at 70% uptime (10s out of 14s) and around 3.5k on 10s (and probably any dynamic) rotation. Something single more cast of regular spammable simply wont cause under normal conditions. I dont see how any further buffs (lets say 1.75 of spammable) wouldnt automatically make 10s/dynamic rotations with as much DoTs as possible the best one.
Not to forget the functional value that is being ignored. All used stamina DoTs except Rending Slashes even if on threshold of use/not use on single target parse offer utility that puts them above any spammable. Or is consuming soul trap causing same or bit lesser DPS than spamming spammable the only metric suddenly and not the part where using it is worth on average 140-200 stamina/sec?
Interesting note on Poison Injection.
It is now behaving the same way it did long ago, where pen (and crit?) are dynamic but WD/stamina and damage done modifiers are static. It also appears to have the same old behavior where the stats are dictated by the bar you are on when the projectile impacts the target rather than the bar from which it was fired (which presumably also makes for a weird contradiction with the Master Bow, although that bears testing as well).
And when I said "the DoT only does ~2.5k DPS", I mean the just the DoT. The direct damage portion is in the ~1-1.5k range, obviously depending on build. Presumably both of these numbers are going to be significantly higher on a bow/bow build at max range.
But I fail to see your point in regards to the ratio of damage between spammables/DoTs and I think you're not seeing the point I'm trying to make: the damage ratio was never the issue. Who cares if single-target DoTs do 10x the damage of spammables? How many single-target DoTs can you actually apply as a stam DPS? Poison Injection, Rending Slashes, Soul Trap, Barbed Trap, and then ... Venomous Claw and Growing Swarm? You can't create a dynamic rotation loaded with DoTs on a stam DPS because there simply aren't that many single-target DoTs to use.
Beyond that, I just think it's incredibly silly where we've reached a point where the gap between the "damage floor" and the "damage ceiling" is so marginal that it might as well not exist. DoTs like Rending Slashes and Poison Injection are barely worth running.
Here's a simple test to demonstrate. Take a basic 2H/Bow build, parse it with the following rotations:
1. Hail + Barbed Trap + Class DoT, 11 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
2. Hail + Barbed Trap + Poison Injection + Class DoT, 10 x Wrecking Blow. At 35% switch to Executioner.
I did this test on a stamsorc, where Hurricane is the class DoT. Using Ballista as my ulti to eliminate variance from Minor Vulnerability on the Greater Storm Atro.
My setup is 5 x Relequen + 5 x Lokke + 2 x Grundwulf. Absorb Stamina glyph on the backbar, poisons on the front. Shadow mundus. 3 x Bloodthirsty, all Divines, etc etc. I swapped out Poison Injection for Ring of Preservation for a passive stat boost.
I've done about 8-10 repetitions of each of the above tests. I'm doing them on a 3m dummy to minimize errors and because I don't have 8 hours to do this, and eliminating those where I made some obvious mistake, the average range for each is about:
1. 40.5k to 42k
2. ... 40.5k to 42k ...
Normalizing for crit rate and procs, I guess that there's probably some DPS gain to using Poison Injection here. But it's on the order of ... 1% or so? Maybe? To me, that's entirely ridiculous. It's barely worth it. You can realistically do 95%+ of maximum DPS by simply laying a ground DoT, keeping your buffs up, and spamming one skill and possibly an execute. Incorporating multiple DoTs into a complex rotation is on the verge of being a pointless exercise.
Median PI parse:
Median No-PI parse:
I mostly agree and see your point just not the part where damage is the issue, something you dont see is my point. If DoTs do 10x damage of spamamble or not very much matters both for build diversity and how it enables/disables other options. Unless every build and class get access to exactly equal amount of dots, them being close in DPS to not using them is the enabler. Where them being mandatory for DPS (this patch) is disabler.
I can see now that in your opinion there is no issue if dots were simply so strong you would use all of them you can get hands on. I think that would be issue. I dont see reason why originally snare + resistance ignoring DoT like rending slashes should have been just mandatory addition of every DW/bow build before Scalebreaker even when both of these properties werent relevant. I dont see reason why now essentially free ability with capability of solving any sudden sustain issue like Consuming Soul trap should be always present ability even when stamina isnt needed (like parsefood parses). I dont see reason why ability with passive 2%, minor vulnerability and AoE damage like Swarm should just be always present and superior ability even when AoE or debuff arent wanted/needed. Not to forget all the AoE abilities that people seem to want to be superior and always present addition even on single target fights where their additional functions arent used or needed (like liquid/boneyard/shard synergy) I think you see my point now, even if you disagree so I guess agree to disagree.
I wont be messing with your thread/idea further Tho hopefully you appreciate the free bumps.
I'm not saying DoT damage *should* be 10x spammable damage.
My point is simply this: rewind to Elsweyr. Did anyone have an issue with DoTs, overperforming or underperforming? Not that I can recall. And *if* single-target DoT damage was 10x spammable damage, but you only had 3 or 4 DoTs you could reasonably use on a given build, it wouldn't matter (from a PvE perspective). You'd still be doing a balanced DoT/spammable rotation.
The destructive change in Scalebreaker was the introduction of: Soul Trap, Destructive Reach, Degeneration, Mystic Orb, and Scalding Rune as viable DoTs. And then all single-target DoTs were *buffed*. So now you're on a magicka build and you've got literally 6-8 (or more) DoTs that you conceivably want on your bars because they all do the same damage.
They should've just wrecked the damage on most of the DoTs they introduced in Scalebreaker, reverted pre-existing DoT damage to where it was in Elsweyr, and called it a day.
Instead we're doing this see-saw of buffing and nerfing and buffing DoTs up and down, and the end result is a giant DPS nerf across the board and basically completely removing any gap between the DPS "floor" and "ceiling".
And all of this to what end? What problem were they trying to solve in the first place in Scalebreaker? Just an empty goal of "standardization", a problem of the dev team's own creation that the playerbase doesn't appear to care about at all.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The best of this year was by far elsweyr.
Iv'e already made a post about this, but in short they went from too many dots to too few, it's fine to increase other dots damage, but what is not fine is to the nerf what we had before, to make space for a new meta, *** that ***.Edited by JinMori on October 9, 2019 6:53PM0
