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Tips for vsing DKs as a MagPlar from better Templar players

FractalParadox
FractalParadox
Soul Shriven
Hey all,
So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
  • Zer0_CooL
    Zer0_CooL
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    Though you're giving a detailed picture of the situation its hard to tell you what exactly to do. But since you tend to run out of resources especially stamina, try to run some tri stat glyphes and build more for mag reg. Use tri stat pots or pots with movability.
    If you run a damage focused build retreat when you are low on resources cleanse debufs/dots and then aproach, this needs some know how of movement and when to attack and when not.

    What platform / server do you play?
  • BNOC
    BNOC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey all,
    So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

    My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

    Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

    1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
    2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

    Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

    I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

    Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    But Templar OP because of cleanse! Nah that's a joke based on all the fools that think we can just cast that non stop to void all damage.

    I find when fighting a DK, it depends on them. If they're either a) as good as me or b) are on a full 1v1 scrubby setup (OS, Shadowrend etc you know the types) then I usually struggle, I don't always lose but it's much harder - Anyone away from that though gets put down.

    In response to your typical scenario, here's a few things that'll probably help:
    1. Get the first stun off so you're in control of the pattern.
    2. Kite them, they have poor mobility as well for the most part, so kite and ranged weave reflectives etc into them
    3. If you can kite to a point that you can get 2 or 3 successive stuns without them getting you, you're in a real good spot.
    4. Run Race Against Time and fossilise and roots in general become a non issue - You'll be able to pop it, circle behind them and start sweeping.
    5. Do not run Vampire (I don't on my magplar as I think it weakens you away from kiting 15 zerglings)
    6. Cleanse in your offensive rotation and try to use sweeps as your heal rather than getting caught on the back bar doing loads of stuff
    7. When you do cleanse or rebuff, do it whilst kiting so you aren't just bathing.
    8. When it comes to BG's, some people will say it's a bit weak but play smarter, if you're running Living Dark you'll be rooting them from range atm, use that to your advantage and Los a pillar or whatever, just strafing in and out of Los whilst ranged weaving them - Even if you're not using LD, you can range weave and setup by strafing LOS which is effective.
    9. Mostly and this is for fighting any class or anyone - Just pay attention to how they're playing, are they stunning you right before your big burst all the time? Kite away and reset it so you're in control of the timers - If your stun->ult(c sweep) combo isn't doing it, try ult first, hit them with a puncturing sweep then stun - Basically just try pay attention and adjust.

    You hear how difficult Templars are to 1v1 from average players and people who have hopped on a bandwagon without any actual knowledge for the most part.
    On Xbox at least, Dk's have been the strongest and easiest 1v1 class for about 3 years.

    If you're Xbox Eu by any chance I don't mind fighting you for a bit and seeing how you actually play, which would be better.
    Or if you have clips?
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    This reminds me of how I accidentally dropped down to lower level in BG and had a 1v1 with a DK. I have a very tank build with both major and minor protection and all resistances almost maxed out... and lots of healing. It was before Living Dark got buffed so I wasn't using it.
    I just stood in my circles of happiness, kepot up my hots and cleansed between offensive rotations. After two minutes the DK got bored and started running away. Then I tirned into offense, chased him, lined up a burst combo and used terrain to my advantage. As he was crossing a bridge I used Flame Reach (old one with knockback) and knocked him from the bridge. Fall damage with my burst combo and Jesus Beam finished the job that my standard burst combo couldn't.
  • FractalParadox
    FractalParadox
    Soul Shriven
    Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

    I play on PC, NA server.

    I have tried a lot of different gear so I don't think my problem is gear specific. The best setup/success I had vs DKs was when I ran Overwhelming Surge, before they changed it a bit.

    @BNOC
    Thanks for reply. I can give living dark another go, although, I personally don't find living dark difficult to deal with. After having it used against me, I just limit my single target abilities, but maybe it might be more effective at dealing with DKs.

    I am a Vampire but I keep it at level one, which basically gives me the abilities without any of the passive perks/downsides. Although, maybe RAT might work better then Mistform (I believe stage 1 vamp has no fire weakness). I sure will miss Mistform if I'm forced to drop it.

    My current strategy (unfortunately) does involve kiting them. I dropped puncturing sweeps for crushing shock since keeping my distance is my only viable option at the moment.

    @Zer0_CooL
    My big pieces do have tri-stat glyphs, and I have a wide variety of potions on my quick slot bar, one of them being tri-stat. I run an Argonion with potion cooldown reduction glyphs on my infused jewelry. I run tri-stat food for the extra stamina pool. My sustain feels pretty solid, but inevitably, at some point I do run out of resources.

    As far as sets go, I have nothing really set in stone yet as I'm trying to find what works best against them. I own all the typical sets and I have tried using them in different combinations (swift, brighthroat, fortified brass, amber plasm, etc)
  • fred4
    fred4
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    I play a bit of all classes, mostly in CP.

    On every magicka class I either run outright high stam regen (1.3K on my magblade) or I use the class STAMINA sustain skill. In other words Restoring Focus. Stamina sustain has to come from somewhere and just a high stamina pool is not enough, if you get into a prolonged duel with a fossilizing DK. If not Restoring Focus you could run Amber Plasm and / or Shacklebreaker + Blood Spawn. IMO getting stamina from a sustain skill is better, because it keeps going while blocking or sprinting. You will notice how much more mobile you feel by combining a stamina sustain skill with RAT. You can occasionally sprint without immediately running out of breath.

    Things vary a bit from class to class. I think magsorc can get away with less stamina sustain, due to streak. Heavy armor also changes things with it's passives. What I think does NOT work well is heavy attacks with a stamina weapon. As a stamina class you could build those into your damage rotation. As a magicka class with a small stam pool they don't do enough damage and they are too slow and not reliable enough when teetering on the edge of not having a break free.

    When not using tri-food, all Prismatic enchants and/or Shacklebreaker goes without saying.

    Next thing is RAT or Mist. One or the other. You need a way to get out of roots using magicka and you need that short immunity window. The speed too. Ritual is not enough, IMO.

    I really hate being backed into a corner and block-casting Honor the Dead on magplar. It's a surefire way to run down both your resource pools and die. A few patches ago my solution was building somewhat tanky with Pirate Skeleton and Protective light armor and building for ongoing healing with Mutagen, Structured Entropy, heal enchant, gold food, Steed mundus (love speed) ... any source of ongoing healing I could find. This worked exceedingly well! I didn't even use Ritual. I personally never liked the skill. I find it's use much more selective than one would think, same with Honor the Dead.

    I have not played my magplar a lot since then, but ended up trying heavy Acuity, Lich and Grothdarr, with an ice staff on the back bar and 2H / Onslaught front bar. Works well enough, but I am neither happy with Acuity nor Onslaught on magplar. In general I think magplar prefers light armor. Since Pirate was nerfed, Buffer of the Swift is an option and I quite like Shadowrend, at least 1v1. Magplar doesn't stack magicka well. It's passives are more geared towards spell damage, which means I find building somewhat tanky, then healing, better than using shields.

    The game changer, though, is Living Dark. Keep that up 100% and you may well reconsider how tanky you need to be. Front bar it, if necessary. It's a ridiculously OP skill. Unless you've played against it, you don't notice how much of a nuisance that skill is to your opponents and it gives you the ongoing heal to ditch resto and play a blocking weapon (1H+S or ice staff) on the backbar.

    In a duel, putting your opponent under pressure and CCing them back is always good. Should you ever play in IC, remember how much Sweeps heals you in PvE. If you can drag some NPCs into the fight, that can be to your advantage, for example flag guards. Use an Immovability potion. I don't think the flag guards have ever thrown a Negate on me when I've had that potion up.

    Finally, something I am currently practicing is stepping into players during a fight. If you try to get out of range from another templar or a DK, with their extra reach, running away is sometimes the worst thing you can do, e.g. if you are not fast enough, have no dodge rolls and no sorc streak or NB shade. On the other hand, if you step into and through another player, you outrange them immediately, with minimum movement.

    Finally, finally, I always recommend googling the Phalanx build. It's an older build, but it's combination of Cyrodiil's Light, Deep Thoughts and Mist Form is exceedingly nifty. Well worth looking into from a theory-crafting perspective.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • fred4
    fred4
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    Incidentally, I did run into a well-known PC EU YouTuber / 1vXer stam DK with my magplar. I was trying heavy Acuity + Caluurion + Onslaught at the time and could not make much of a dent. His damage was strong, stronger than mine, a very experienced player, who runs Fury and plays his build day in, day out. He killed me once, because I underestimated him. He could not kill me again as I started playing more defensively. This was 1v1 on a resource with no one else around. I eventually made my way through the NPC guards and all the way back to the keep, while he was constantly beating on me, much to his frustration. Like I said, Living Dark: Totally OP. To be fair, I was also in heavy armor and wearing Blood Spawn.
    Edited by fred4 on October 8, 2019 9:52PM
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • BNOC
    BNOC
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    @BNOC
    Thanks for reply. I can give living dark another go, although, I personally don't find living dark difficult to deal with. After having it used against me, I just limit my single target abilities, but maybe it might be more effective at dealing with DKs.

    I am a Vampire but I keep it at level one, which basically gives me the abilities without any of the passive perks/downsides. Although, maybe RAT might work better then Mistform (I believe stage 1 vamp has no fire weakness). I sure will miss Mistform if I'm forced to drop it.

    My current strategy (unfortunately) does involve kiting them. I dropped puncturing sweeps for crushing shock since keeping my distance is my only viable option at the moment.

    Living dark is getting nerfed but is alright.

    I don't find it difficult to deal with in the slightest either, I've said for a while now that I'm amazed people seemingly can't deal with a root that's very similar to roots they've been dealing with for years, but hey *** - Most players just don't run snare/root immunity for some daft reason.

    I doubt you'll fight a magdk that's running RAT but they'll happily complain about LD's root if you run it, despite it being a single button press to negate, along with all other snares - Probably don't get too used to LD as we're losing it so people don't have to run basic skills and can get back to being Siamese twins with the templars they're fighting.

    Dk's will hit you from range so it stops them in place, you can dot and it makes kiting easier for the time being.

    You will miss Mistform but learning to play without it will make you a better player - Check the Templar feedback threads (There's 2, one official and one by Minno) for posts r.e. that and all other Templar queries, there's quite a lot of us who frequent those topics and it's pretty constructive.

    Nothing wrong with kiting, in fact I'd say it's a skill to do well and will help you massively, especially if you drop Vampire.
    If you want to stand-and-bang you might be in trouble as they can apply so many dots so quickly (quicker than we can cleanse in some cases) and often run proper assisted turnip builds with shadowrend and overwhelming etc which are just ticking on you, giving them 15% dmg reduction etc;

    I'd keep sweeps on as well. Or.. I do keep sweeps on.
    Edited by BNOC on October 8, 2019 1:47PM
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • BNOC
    BNOC
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    fred4 wrote: »
    Incidentally, I did run into a well-known PC EU YouTuber / 1vXer stam DK with my magplar. I was trying heavy Acuity + Caluurion + Onslaught at the time and could not make much of a dent. His damage was strong, stronger than mine, a very experienced player, who runs Fury and plays his build day in, day out. He killed me once, because I underestimated him. He could not kill me again as I started playing more defensively. This was 1v1 on a resource with no one else around. I eventually made my way through the NPC guards and all the way back to the keep, while he was constantly beating on me, much to his frustration. Like I said, Living Dark: Totally OP. To be fair, I was also in heavy armor and possibly wearing Shadowrend.

    LD is OP against Turnips but so is everything.
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • fred4
    fred4
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    I should clarify that I don't play vamp. My outlook is colored by my lack of Mist Form. Mist changes things in so far as you can - I imagine - build less tanky and you may prefer Channeled Focus to restore magicka during Mist, while you have a 4 second window to restore your stamina as well. I do not know how that feels, but only from a theoretical viewpoint. If you use Mist and you have stamina issues, then I would strongly consider the Phalanx approach:

    Cyrodiil's Light gives damage reduction during Sweeps, Radiant, Deep Thoughts, Mist Form, that vamp stun skill and the templar healing ult. Furthermore, if you get interrupted, you gain a free magicka cast. Restoring a small stamina pool with Deep Thoughts is a joy, cause it's fast. Restoring magicka takes longer, but with Cyrodiil's Light you are banking on people bashing you. You then gain a free cast of whatever expensive skill you choose, such as Mist or Ritual. It's a win win. Restore magicka with Deep Thoughts or get a free skill, if interrupted. This, in turn, allows you to run less sustain and more damage elsewhere in the build.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • fred4
    fred4
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    BNOC wrote: »
    Living dark is getting nerfed but is alright.

    I don't find it difficult to deal with in the slightest either, I've said for a while now that I'm amazed people seemingly can't deal with a root that's very similar to roots they've been dealing with for years, but hey *** - Most players just don't run snare/root immunity for some daft reason.
    There is no such thing as snare/root immunity. There is snare/root removal, but the immunity is so short, Living Dark will just CC you again. Might not affect all builds in the same fashion, but it is crippling against my melee magblade for example. I rely on high movement to keep away from counter-attacks and I rely on keeping up with people when I proc Zaan.

    The reason I say it's OP is because it's 6 seconds of rooting every player around you semi-passively. That is extremely strong. Talons root you once. Crippling Grasp roots one person. Even Bombard you have to spam. Templar continuously roots and only has to spend 1 GCD every 6 GCDs to do it. That is ridiculously OP in my book. I regard it as such for the same reason people find DOTs too strong or they found enchants too strong during glyphgate: Consistency of application. Consistent application of most skills isn't that easy, even in PvE. In vMA mobs move out of ground DOTs while in PvP players avoid non-DOT skills all the time. Strongly DOT them up and watch them melt, though. Same in vMA. DOTs are highly effective against mobile bosses, there, because they do consistent damage with one application. Now look at Living Dark. You don't even have to target it. You just apply it every 6 seconds and all players who so much as sneeze on you automatically get rooted. That is extremely strong.

    The skill also gives you constant heals that offset incoming damage, much like Living Trellis. This is something templar kind of needs, so you don't get backed into spamming your expensive burst heal, but it just adds further value to that one single skill. I see few people running the other morph, which is a ridiculous skill itself. Magplar wasn't exactly in a bad place before. ZOS' aim in changing Total Dark was to make the skill less overbearing and, dare I say, nerf magplar a little. IMO they've accomplished the complete opposite.
    Edited by fred4 on October 8, 2019 3:04PM
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • BNOC
    BNOC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    fred4 wrote: »
    BNOC wrote: »
    Living dark is getting nerfed but is alright.

    I don't find it difficult to deal with in the slightest either, I've said for a while now that I'm amazed people seemingly can't deal with a root that's very similar to roots they've been dealing with for years, but hey *** - Most players just don't run snare/root immunity for some daft reason.
    There is no such thing as snare/root immunity. There is snare/root removal, but the immunity is so short, Living Dark will just CC you again. Might not affect all builds in the same fashion, but it is crippling against my melee magblade for example. I rely on high movement to keep away from counter-attacks and I rely on keeping up with people when I proc Zaan.

    The reason I say it's OP is because it's 6 seconds of rooting every player around you semi-passively. That is extremely strong. Talons root you once. Crippling Grasp roots one person. Even Bombard you have to spam. Templar continuously roots and only has to spend 1 GCD every 6 GCDs to do it. That is ridiculously OP in my book. I regard it as such for the same reason people find DOTs too strong or they found enchants too strong during glyphgate: Consistency of application. Consistent application of most skills isn't that easy, even in PvE. In vMA mobs move out of ground DOTs while in PvP players avoid non-DOT skills all the time. Strongly DOT them up and watch them melt, though. Same in vMA. DOTs are highly effective against mobile bosses, there, because they do consistent damage with one application. Now look at Living Dark. You don't even have to target it. You just apply it every 6 seconds and all players who so much as sneeze on you automatically get rooted. That is extremely strong.

    The skill also gives you constant heals that offset incoming damage, much like Living Trellis. This is something templar kind of needs, so you don't get backed into spamming your expensive burst heal, but it just adds further value to that one single skill. I see few people running the other morph, which is a ridiculous skill itself. Magplar wasn't exactly in a bad place before. ZOS' aim in changing Total Dark was to make the skill less overbearing and, dare I say, nerf magplar a little. IMO they've accomplished the complete opposite.

    You said the immunity is short, ergo, immunity exists and is a button press away.

    How do you fight a MagDK, other MagNbs, Wardens or anyone using root poisons on that Melee MagNb? Why aren't you running RAT on it for the mobility that a melee MagNb should probably have?

    LD puts out 3 roots at max and 1 person would never be rooted 3 times.

    If that player isn't running snare immunity, they may have to re-cast snare immunity but will then also ignore my ritual snare, my sweeps snare, my reflective light snare and basically everything that hinders them in the slightest - It's user error that they're not running snare immunity and or using it effectively because LD, crippling grasp and all the rest are a massive non issue now thanks to RAT - LD shoulda been toned down but a root on an immobile class without an existing root and or an unblockable CC shouldn't have been an issue and honestly, is beyond simple to deal with.

    If it had a single root the outrage would still exist.

    It's not uncommon for skills to have an additional perk, or 2 - Talons and Crippling Grasp both have additional perks, Talons for example is an AOE 4s? root that puts a dot on targets and also drops a synergy for further damage/undaunted sustain to teammates. Those two have much better synergy in respects to killing someone as they can be followed up with an unblockable CC which again Templar doesn't have. So we get a bit of healing (if people are attacking), but in a second I'd have traded it for damage, especially if I had an unbockable CC to follow it up with, now that would be OP but again, not something new.

    I don't know who was running TD before, I certainly wasn't and whilst I'm always in an alright spot as a day 1 Templar, regardless of changes, I can honestly say I was probably the only Templar on the server at the duel spots and in BG's etc - Those that I did see were either zerg tankers who popped mists and played tag pointlessly or straight up healers.

    Its getting changed anyway so is no big deal but it's pretty embarrassing for anyone that couldn't deal with a simple root whilst it existed.

    EDIT: Next patch they have to run the exact same snare immunity to deal with the heavy snares that are coming their way, so all in all, kinda pointless. If I hear complaints about being snared, that'll be the cherry.
    Edited by BNOC on October 8, 2019 3:46PM
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • mursie
    mursie
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    break fossilize. reposition with mist form, as mist form is near end, block cast purge and heal.

    about face block -cast a purify light, degen, and vamp bane. topple charge. sweep into crescent sweep and jesus beam if necessary

    goodnight vienna.


    also - if you can, run the immovable,magicka,health pots. after the break into mist form. block casting the purge / heal and popping the pot will set you up for a clean window to go offensive without another fossilize incoming during the combo. your damage on magplar is extremely strong. capable of 100-zeroing people in a single combo. patience is the key on the DK as you wait for that window but when you successfully line up all dots under a purify and get the topple off... it's extremely hard for them to recover
    twitch.tv/mursieftw
    twitter: @mursieftw
  • fred4
    fred4
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    BNOC wrote: »
    Living dark is getting nerfed...
    Is it? That may just be another miscalculation. You can roll out of a root, but you can only clear a snare by casting a skill. Also, while I believe there is a 3 second cooldown on roots, there isn't one on snares to my knowledge. This will be a buff to templars in some fights.

    On the one hand: Sweeps snare is down to 40%. On the other hand: Why don't we just move the stronger snare to Living Dark and land back on square one. What a croc of horse s h i t.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • fred4
    fred4
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    @BNOC, I run RAT on practically every build, including my magblade. I ran Forward Momentum before RAT and snare removal on DK wings was ever a thing. I also run immovable pots. No need for your "everyone is stupid" attitude. Most people who participate in a thread like this actually do know how to PvP.

    A templar still needs to know how to play. There is no substitute for the basics, such as knowing how to move, to LoS, and so on. What I'm talking about is balance. There is a reason templars - magplars - are suddenly everywhere. Living Dark is IMO part of that reason. It helped push templar up the food chain. It is also just annoying a f to play against.
    PC EU, Stamina DK (EP), Magicka NB (EP), Magicka Warden (EP), Magicka Templar (EP). Occasionally: Stamina Templar (EP), Stamina NB (AD), Stamina Sorcerer (DC)
  • Neoauspex
    Neoauspex
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Living Dark/Unstable Core are good options but if you're getting into a defensive cycle that's already draining your resources, the same thing is going to happen. LD/UC is off my bar even in this patch because it's so expensive. You have to have a way of going offensive and putting them into that same healing death spiral that you're experiencing.

    An easy way to do this is bats/sweeps, but it's hard to finish a good player that way even though it will flip the defense. Personally I like to dodge roll through them, onslaught->toppling->sweeps. Sometimes it's better to not cleanse and heal before your burst and they'll try to out whip your sweeps if they see your health at 50%, but they'll die first due to the onslaught penetration.

    A good DK will reposition and heal, and if you're counting on Radiant to finish them, sorry no luck. This situation is why I have Dark Flare and Thurvokun in my arsenal right now, but as everybody knows Dark Flare is hard to cast and hard to land. If it lands within the onslaught buff though it hits really hard.

    The best DKs right now are Stam DKs that team up with one other Stam DK and cast nothing but D-Swing. Nothing you can do about that as a solo player until next patch.
  • AzurasCry
    AzurasCry
    Templar’s have some of the best skills and passives in the game. Once, you learn to use them better, you’ll realize how strong Templar’s really are, also that Templar’s are the bane of DK’s existence. Templars are the paper to Dk’s rock.
    Templar’s have very strong close, mid and long range skills.
    If you play CQC, pairing jabs with light and eclipse (morphs) are extremely strong. You can put out a lot of burst by being aggressive. And the more aggressive you are, the more you will heal yourself. Now, if you add a few more skills such as cleansing ritual (morphs) and regen from the restoration staff, you can mitigate the dots from the Dk and continue to be very aggressive. And unlike the DK, your damage can be lined up in a burst better than his dots and two possible hard hitting attacks being whip and ultimate.
    If you play range, which works even better against DKs due their lack of range and mobility in most situations. You have the upper hand. And most of DK’s range are from non-class skills which are mostly dots too. So cleanse is a game reset button.
    You can combo light and eclipse again, but there are some cheesy and annoying combos at range that Templar’s can use. Vampire’s bane -> dark flare -> javelins - radiant oppression. And if you mix light into it, it’s a ridiculous combo to catch people off guard.
    But one of the most important thing in pvp is world placement, meaning your position on the map and how you move around and react to other things. Line of sight yourself so others can kill you, while forcing others to be in the open, so they can’t hide. Also, if you can, try to be on the flanks and not dead front. It will make them have to turn their cameras to hit you, and stop some skills from connecting. Imagine like this, if you are jabbing and someone is behind you, your jabs are not connecting. Similarly, other classes also have skills that require them to face the opponents.
    If you are having stamina issues, it’s probably because you stamina pool is too low, or you are using it ineffectively. Don’t keep dodge rolling or breaking roots with stamina all the time, you have access to cleanse and Race against time. Use potions smartly - stam or tri stat pots or immovable. Don’t hold block all the time if your build can’t sustain it. I recommend having at least near 13k Stam for pvp even on map characters. It can make a difference.
  • Hexquisite
    Hexquisite
    ✭✭✭
    This is a great thread. I have had so many 10 min fights against DKs that end in a draw, that most of us Cyrodil don't fight against each other any more, We might be the bane of their existence, but they are the bane of my existence as well. Some great info in this thread. Main reason I switched from Vamp to RAT was DK, when their whips were insane after Elsywr came out. And I never went back.

    I don't use Living Dark anymore, I swear just having it on my bar and NOT using it lowered my mag regen:) Good players know how to deal with it anyway. I like the salty tell I got from another Templar asking how I could heavy attack while I was rooted by LD.
    PC NA
    ~Ethereal Traders Union~
    ~Spicy Economics~


  • FractalParadox
    FractalParadox
    Soul Shriven
    To everyone:
    Very helpful responses. Thank you all. The 2 seconds on RAT seems to be a bit low. I guess I can give it another go. It might be better next patch when purifying light can crit.

    @fred4
    Restoring Focus is a very interesting idea actually. I don't find my self having many issues with Magicka. Funny enough, I came up with my own version of the "Phalanx" build. It was very strong, but once again, I was having problems "man fighting" DKs, so I went with a more ranged build.

    @BNOC
    I don't mean to be lazy, but could you link me to the threads you're referring to? Those sound like ones I'd also like to follow.

    @Neoauspex
    I do think that Dark Flare might be the answer I was looking for.

    @AzurasCry
    Yes, I think that I might have to accept that a ranged build will be the best solution vs DKs. Jav should help keep them at a distance, and Dark Flare might be that extra little bit I need to keep the DKs from regenerating.
  • BaiterOfZergs
    BaiterOfZergs
    ✭✭✭
    To me magplar and magdk cancel each other out in a straight up 1v1, at least when it’s decent player vs decent player. They both have tools to interrupt each other’s rotation and enough heals to prolong the fight.

    You usually know 30 secs in if the fight isn’t going to end.
    Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.
  • D0PAMINE
    D0PAMINE
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Hey all,
    So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

    My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

    Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

    1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
    2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

    Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

    I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

    Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    As a sDK, I hate living dark and resource drain poisons. Javelin is annoying too. You may need to turtle up more while keeping your dots up as well. Use your rune for the recovery and resists. As others have stated, Race Against Time is so useful. You can block cast a lot on a templar. Yes you will get leaped, try to time your defense against it, if you're vamp you can mist form it.

    Do you feel you have enough recovery? How about spell pen? You need to melt through a tanky DK. Out sustaining can be tricky depending on the player. I run an old Ultigen build. resource drain poisons are a massive cripple to my build.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    AzurasCry wrote: »
    Templar’s have some of the best skills and passives in the game. Once, you learn to use them better, you’ll realize how strong Templar’s really are, also that Templar’s are the bane of DK’s existence. Templars are the paper to Dk’s rock.
    Templar’s have very strong close, mid and long range skills.
    If you play CQC, pairing jabs with light and eclipse (morphs) are extremely strong. You can put out a lot of burst by being aggressive. And the more aggressive you are, the more you will heal yourself. Now, if you add a few more skills such as cleansing ritual (morphs) and regen from the restoration staff, you can mitigate the dots from the Dk and continue to be very aggressive. And unlike the DK, your damage can be lined up in a burst better than his dots and two possible hard hitting attacks being whip and ultimate.
    If you play range, which works even better against DKs due their lack of range and mobility in most situations. You have the upper hand. And most of DK’s range are from non-class skills which are mostly dots too. So cleanse is a game reset button.
    You can combo light and eclipse again, but there are some cheesy and annoying combos at range that Templar’s can use. Vampire’s bane -> dark flare -> javelins - radiant oppression. And if you mix light into it, it’s a ridiculous combo to catch people off guard.
    But one of the most important thing in pvp is world placement, meaning your position on the map and how you move around and react to other things. Line of sight yourself so others can kill you, while forcing others to be in the open, so they can’t hide. Also, if you can, try to be on the flanks and not dead front. It will make them have to turn their cameras to hit you, and stop some skills from connecting. Imagine like this, if you are jabbing and someone is behind you, your jabs are not connecting. Similarly, other classes also have skills that require them to face the opponents.
    If you are having stamina issues, it’s probably because you stamina pool is too low, or you are using it ineffectively. Don’t keep dodge rolling or breaking roots with stamina all the time, you have access to cleanse and Race against time. Use potions smartly - stam or tri stat pots or immovable. Don’t hold block all the time if your build can’t sustain it. I recommend having at least near 13k Stam for pvp even on map characters. It can make a difference.

    Bane of existence?
    Templar Vs. DK has since Beta come down to who was more experienced/better player. Though maybe when ZOS dropped 1.6 with its vivisection on DKs was a temporary exception.

    DK leap + Whip is a quick burst a Templar can't match. OP is running out of resources because a good DK who has the initiative is going to put a magplar in turtle mode.

    To the OP: Cast Ritual once during your rotation, if you still have debuffs just live with them (every other class in the game functions fine being debuffed, so can a magplar). I think DK Vs. templar comes down to who holds the initiative and controls the fight. The one who feels the need to hold block and keep casting their go to heal combo (Igneous +Dragonbllod or Ritual + Breath) is 9 times out of 10 going to lose. You've got to maintain the pressure, which can be hard to do as a "rangplar" because crushing shock doesn't heal and you don;t have Streak or shields like a sorc. I would think Total Dark is a must.

  • BNOC
    BNOC
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Edited by BNOC on October 9, 2019 8:46AM
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • DCZergNoob
    DCZergNoob
    ✭✭✭
    Hey all,
    So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

    My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

    Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

    1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
    2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

    Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

    I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

    Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    spam cleanse and living dark until your cres sweep is up then that into 1 jab channel
    and bam you've won ez clap
  • Neoauspex
    Neoauspex
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DCZergNoob wrote: »
    Hey all,
    So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

    My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

    Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

    1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
    2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

    Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

    I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

    Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    spam cleanse and living dark until your cres sweep is up then that into 1 jab channel
    and bam you've won ez clap

    Your name in conjunction with this post warrants a sarcastic insightful from me.
  • EtTuBrutus
    EtTuBrutus
    ✭✭✭✭
    DCZergNoob wrote: »
    Hey all,
    So I want to start by saying this isn't a "please nerf DKs" thread, but instead, more of a L2P thread for myself and I'd like to keep it constructive.

    My PvP toon is a Magicka Templar. I'm not a "35 kills, 0 deaths per match" sort of player but I can hold my own. VS all other classes, against players of my similar skill, it feels a bit more like a coin flip. But unless I'm VSing a bad DK they will usually beat me 1v1. At this point, I've learned to just ignore DKs and go for everyone else and this works fine and this tactic wins me a lot of matches. But if there aren't 3 or more DKs in a match my options become limited.

    Here is a typical scenario. A fight will start with the DK fossilizing me and proceed to apply a bunch of debuffs. I respond by breaking free and trying to purge the debuffs. Often I find my self having to use extended ritual twice to get everything off, which costs a little less than 10k Magicka. Then, one of two things usually happens:

    1) I find myself in this perpetual loop of trying to cleanse debuffs, resulting in me never going offensive and slowly being chipped to death.
    2) I ignore the debuffs and try to go on the offensive and apply some pressure back to the other player a bit.

    Throughout the fight, the DK will continue to use fossilize and apply debuffs while playing defensive (holding block, etc) until (I'm guessing) they see that I can no longer break free, or I'm out of resources. At this point, they usually use Dragon Leap, regain resources via Battle Roar and with their resources back and me running dry, they finish me off.

    I'm sure better MagPlar players have gotten around this as I'm always hearing about how difficult templars are to vs 1v1.

    Tips from either DKs or Templars would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    spam cleanse and living dark until your cres sweep is up then that into 1 jab channel
    and bam you've won ez clap

    Dot em up, leap, ez clap
  • Abyssmol
    Abyssmol
    ✭✭✭
    fred4 wrote: »
    BNOC wrote: »
    Living dark is getting nerfed...
    Is it? That may just be another miscalculation. You can roll out of a root, but you can only clear a snare by casting a skill. Also, while I believe there is a 3 second cooldown on roots, there isn't one on snares to my knowledge. This will be a buff to templars in some fights.

    On the one hand: Sweeps snare is down to 40%. On the other hand: Why don't we just move the stronger snare to Living Dark and land back on square one. What a croc of horse s h i t.

    Yes, it's getting nerf. The immobilization is better than the snare, and the heal is also being reduce by 10%.
  • Lokey0024
    Lokey0024
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Trust your healing. Dark/ritual should keep you topped off more then dots hurt. Don't dodgeroll so much. Most DKs telegraph burst so get rdy to block. Run immovable pots if they are spamming ardent abilities, it's the burst setup. 2800-3100 impen, DKs don't have crit modifier naturally. Don't play off your back foot, you will be rolled. Pressure, pressure, pressure.
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