Transition Period, Calm down

Conduit0

"Transition period" or not there shouldn't be massive swings that completely invalidate most builds from one update to the next. These kinds of swings show that the Devs have no idea what they're doing and are just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

What makes this whole fiasco even more infuriating is that they were told repeatedly throughout U23's PTS that dots were overtuned and it would result in a dot heavy meta. Five weeks of feedback was completely ignored and the dots went live without a single change. Now they finally admit they made a mistake, but in true ZOS fashion instead of reasonable nerfs, they go full scorched earth and nerf many dots into oblivion. Now they will of course proceed to ignore all of the PTS feedback and changes will go live exactly as they are.

Aurie

Expecting everyone to calm down is all very well, if it were not for the fact that the most likely reason for the ongoing rage with each successive patch is the almost total lack of communication from ZOS regarding their plans.

People would be considerably more understanding if they knew where this was all leading, and the reasoning behind the changes in each patch.

This is not too much to ask of the combat team. Of all the many MMOs I’ve played ZOS are by far the worst at sharing their visions, and no one should be surprised...least of all ZOS....when the forum erupts.

Someone pointed out that Starbucks(?) had every right to not sell hamburgers. It is indeed any company’s right to do or not do what they choose. Just as it is everyone’s right to stay with that company or to leave it. If ZOS took a little time to post the reasoning behind the decisions they choose to make, we their player base might choose to calm down.

Solariken

6 years after release and all the changes are drastic and flippant, consisting of mostly nerfs. Tell us more about how we should be patient during this 6-year "transition period".

I've got news, if they haven't figured it out in 6 years they likely never will

Guyle

In my experience with MMOs, limited that it admittedly is, when they make changes that are so universally hated by the player base, minus a few outliers, the outrage is not only called for, it is necessary to promote the stopping of changes that are so universally hated.

In another game I used to play, a small but highly impactful change created 65 pages of outrage on the forums overnight, and the devs thankfully took a step back, analyzed the situation and realized that the reason their change was universally hated was because of the underlying issues in that system in the first place. They then addressed the underlying issues - it was about *** loot tables - and for the most part, it was a constructive experience for both the player base and the devs. That was a far cry different from when two years earlier they instituted massive combat changes despite outrage on their PTS forums, and lost 60% of the playerbase. Not kidding, lost 60%, gone. Some came back, most didn't.

So, don't tell people to calm down, we are all customers here, and as such we have a right to get pissed off about what they are doing to a product we have paid for/are paying for. Starbucks can not serve hamburgers as much as they damn well please, but don't be surprised if the people who loved the vente chocolaco hoohaa surprise are gonna be seriously pissed if Starbucks announces they will now be replacing 60% of the grounds used to make it with excrement.

Dreyloch

Don't try to defend them OP,

The game is 5 years old. Trial and error should have been done and over with 4 years ago. I do however, have just a tiny bit of patience left. We will see what happens over the PTS cycle. I can't see all of this nonsense going live as it is in the first week of PTS. There will be changes. Have to wait and see how good or bad they are. /shrug

DarcyMardin

I was totally calm before I read the OP’s posts. Nothing like telling people to “calm down” and achieving exactly the opposite.

MasterSpatula

Good to know that things were better before now and will be better after now, so right now totes doesn't matter.

FakeFox

Figuring out a basic game balance is something that happens in alpha or beta phases, not five years into a established game. Doing this so far into a games lifespan alienates players and a "transition period" like this might cause bad reputation, decreasing player count and other problems the game might not recover from anymore. Changes like this are something you do before selling a product, after that the goal should be to refine the experience costumers have payed for and not completely changing it into a different product.

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

They have the right to disagree with some of the things we ask. Exactly the same way that a Starbucks has the right to not sell hamburgers if that's not what they want to do!

You can not compare that to a live service product. We have bought this product and in many cases additionally have a subscription. Of course a company has the right to alter such a product, but doing it in a way that removes the product from what the costumer originally payed for is absolutely disrespectful.

mikemacon

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lock my account, refund me my money and I will return after a year when you are finished with re-balances and performance fixes and I'll pay same money back to unlock my account and play.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I am going to tell my company customers to keep paying me every month, while I "transition".

Let's see how many care to keep paying me while I flip everything around.

Guyle wrote: »

You're right, we should all calm down during the transition period, maybe do something else while they figure it out? K, see you guys in a year.

...bye, then? I guess?

Guyle

mikemacon wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lock my account, refund me my money and I will return after a year when you are finished with re-balances and performance fixes and I'll pay same money back to unlock my account and play.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I am going to tell my company customers to keep paying me every month, while I "transition".

Let's see how many care to keep paying me while I flip everything around.

Guyle wrote: »

You're right, we should all calm down during the transition period, maybe do something else while they figure it out? K, see you guys in a year.

...bye, then? I guess?

You're not good with irony or sarcasm I take it

Spartabunny08

Thanks OP, been in over 2 years. I love my tanks and healers and back when I began I enjoyed this game so much more. Then came the nerfs and my tank was never the same. Healer did really well (mainly PvP) and still does. My DD builds are all awesome and quite fun. Everyone always cries about how they nerf things, well they buffed DOTS last patch and yeah that was too much. My DD builds it was cheese, tried it and seen how it works, readjusted to not just Dot everyone to death. This isn't balanced at all, but for good reason. As is said they're seeing how the changes they make are used and abused, they're actually doing their job for once. Our last combat teams were morons and they screwed up this game for the past couple years every 3 months. Honestly this is a very good thing because this is what it looks like when someone is doing their job correctly. My tanks in almost two years are doing awesome again, they added some new mitigation last patch and although it's a very small window, it's working. They're totally revamping PvE and I really feel like something good comes from this rework of the game, maybe even great. The key to happiness is to find something to be happy about.

Cadbury

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Calm down

Have you ever actually tried to tell someone who is in a rage to "calm down"?

Part of my everyday job, yes and it's hard yes but not impossible I'm still fine and some of those angry people are now friends ^^

You must either be a cop or a shrink.

Cadbury

ChunkyCat wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Calm down

Have you ever actually tried to tell someone who is in a rage to "calm down"?

If the answer is yes, do you still have all your teeth?

Calm down.

Sanctum74

Basically just another self entitled rant thread, "Waaaah if you don't agree with me or the devs then you should be quiet or quit the game"

Sorry op, but many of us have years and hundreds even thousands of $$ into this game and we will rightfully give our opinions and if you don't like it then maybe you should be the one to leave the game.

SirDopey

Lol we've been in a transition period for 5 years now....

Ozby

I've stayed positive and forgiving through every patch for 2 years now but this one I am finding it so very hard to stay positive.
I really do love the new DLC and the goodies it brings love that stuff! But I am also gutted that Ill be going going from mediocre dps to crap dps sorry but I just cant be happy about this and depending what goes live could be a game changer for me.

Waffennacht

While I dislike many of the current pts changes, I'm not about to flip a table over it.

Also... Xbox really doesn't have very many good games

Banana

Zos doesnt find reverse very often. Dropping dots from your bar and spamming all day sounds uninteresting

Wayshuba

To the OP, sorry but no.

If we saw incremental changes (+/- 5%-15%) going back and forth moving towards a target maybe.

But let me give you one example that shows why no one should have the slightest faith in this combat team that they are EVER going to balance this.

In U23 they felt DoTs were underpowered. One skill they upped because of this mystical "audit" was Twin Slashes. They increased the Dot portion of it by 37%. So, in U22 if the intial hit did 250 and the bleed did 1,250, you got a total of 1,500 damage. In U23, this changed so it was 1,962 damage (250+1712 bleed). Now in U24, they are cutting the bleed back by 63% so the total damage of Twin Slashes will be 883 (250+663 bleed). This is worse then when they though the skill was underperforming.

So, please explain to me why I should have any faith in the slightest in a team that thought DoTs were underpowered one patch, but then nerfed them the very next patch to be worse than when they thought they were underpowered?

To put it frankly, everything we have all seen over the last year especially gives no credence for a single person to put their faith in this team. Action, not words, has shown they haven't got a clue what they are doing.

Thus why people are reaching their breaking point with this.

buttaface

These condescending cope threads cropping up are worse than the typical "I quit" threads seen on MMO forums for decades now.

They should put them all in a new subforum and call it "Stockholm Syndrome" because that's what they all resemble more than anything else.

It's like "I'm going to keep giving the crackhead on the corner money because -this time- unlike the last five years, he's got a -plan- to spend it on food. He's -transitioning-" Sure he is! Makes perfect sense because despite the well-documented way this game has been a mess for five years on the top end, -this time- it's going to be different... just keep paying, you'll see... this time.

To the topic, what is it? Calm down? I'm calm, was annoyed when I quit this game in 2017 due to the exact same things they were -transitioning- into then, now it's just funny to watch the runaway train after coming back a couple months. Can't wait to see what merriment comes next.

Go read the comments on youtube to the recent Alcast videos, OP, be sure to tell those people to "calm down" in a less controlled space. Get back to us with the replies, I'm sure you will make lots of new friends.

Wayshuba

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

If ZoS doesn't do what you say they should do it's not necessarily because they don't listen, it could also be that they simply don't agree with you about what this game should be.

I am going to say this loud and clear here:

It doesn't matter if ZoS agrees with their customers or not. Know why? Your customers are right. This is where so many game development companies end up failing. Customers pay the bills, they pay the salaries. At the end of the day, once a product is released to the public it is no longer yours, it is your customers. This is the same in any industry.

What ZoS wants means jack diddly. Because if they get what they want but paying customers don't want it - guess where it leads?

Sorry, but this is the harsh reality of the business world. Without satisfied paying customers you do not have a business and many people do not have a job. Basic fact of life.

Something game developers would do well to heed. Their industry is rife with companies living high on the hog one day and being in the dust bin of history the next.

Wayshuba

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

@KageNin and @daedalusAI those are very good points and I do agree with you when I look from those perspectives.

I still thing that as players we do have only 2 options:

*Wait tll the transition is over or quit
Or
*Keep playing giving them all the feedback we can so it helps to navigate the transition.

I personally think that the combat system is the weakest point of this game and it's what creates all the problems. They should start to really get serious about it and maybe invest more on these matters.

Third bit of feedback, tell them you had enough and leave now. There is plenty of other MMOs out there. WoW Classic just released and is doing well. FFXIV is kicking it. Along with quite a few others.

The better approach is to not be arrogant and take for granted your customers are locked in. I bet 80%-90% of ESO players came from another MMO before.... which means they are willing to move on when they get fed up.

Morgul667

U27 is like in one year

Do you seriously expect people to wait quietly for one year while game is being trashed and say nothing about it?

ZarkingFrued

Lol. What makes you think they know what they're doing? Games and companies make horrible decisions that kill the game all of the time. Headstrong devs could wreck a game in one patch

BrightOblivion

Wayshuba wrote: »

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

If ZoS doesn't do what you say they should do it's not necessarily because they don't listen, it could also be that they simply don't agree with you about what this game should be.

I am going to say this loud and clear here:

It doesn't matter if ZoS agrees with their customers or not. Know why? Your customers are right. This is where so many game development companies end up failing. Customers pay the bills, they pay the salaries. At the end of the day, once a product is released to the public it is no longer yours, it is your customers. This is the same in any industry.

What ZoS wants means jack diddly. Because if they get what they want but paying customers don't want it - guess where it leads?

Sorry, but this is the harsh reality of the business world. Without satisfied paying customers you do not have a business and many people do not have a job. Basic fact of life.

Something game developers would do well to heed. Their industry is rife with companies living high on the hog one day and being in the dust bin of history the next.

The *actual* harsh reality? Many of the people who think they know the most about the way things should be and are the most strident about it are actually the most clueless. And while there are certainly those games which failed because of a "We know best" philosophy, there are also examples of those which caved to their customers, giving them exactly what they wanted, only to lose their way and collapse as a result. Unfortunately, there's very little unified agreement on which direction to go. Just look at the response to this patch and you'll see what I mean. You've got those saying this is fine and those screaming it isn't. You've got those demanding melee and class DoTs to be better than everything else and those shouting it's the worst thing ever. You've got those suggesting to nerf Rele, Lokk, and light attacks, and those saying they should just get better at the game. It seems like for every suggestion that pops up, you wind up with people on both sides. So which of their paying customers should they listen to, exactly? *Which* customer is right? Only the ones who pay the most? Only the ones who know the most? Only the ones who agree with you?

In January of this year, they announced they were parting ways with Wrobel. It appears to have been an amicable enough parting, but it seems evident they're going in a different direction than he was. Apparently, they prefer Wheeler's vision, whatever it may be, or at least feel that it aligns better with theirs. That's why he has the job, and someone else doesn't. That's also the transition period that's being referred to. Regardless of how long Wrobel had the job, regardless of how long the game's been around, Wheeler's steering the combat boat now. When you get a new manager, especially after the company's decided they don't like the direction the old one was going in, odds are very good you're not going to be going in the same direction. Odds are also good that, once the new person's in place, regardless of how old the company is, there's going to be a period where everyone's trying to get on the same page.

Additionally, while I understand that people are angry and frustrated (I'm also scratching my head at some of the changes, feeling a bit of whiplash, and feeling less than excited about the sustain nerfs), claims that, simply because this game's been around for five years, he has no right to change things (dramatically or otherwise) and adamant declarations that it doesn't matter what they think, they'd better do what the community says even if they disagree with it, and if they don't, they're either not listening or being contemptuous or have some nefarious underlying motive, is, frankly, ridiculous. He has every right to change things. That's his job. You have every right to disagree, to explain why in a way that doesn't violate forum rules, or, if you truly wish, to find a use of your money that you feel might be more beneficial. But he's not a trained dancing monkey, and he's not required, by any stretch of the imagination, to blindly follow your whims, whichever way the wind may be blowing a given day. It doesn't mean the combat team's evil, sitting in a smoke-filled room talking about new and exciting ways to make the players' lives a nightmare (if anyone's doing that, it's probably @ZOS_Finn ;-p ). It just means they think differently.

You know what would be truly terrible? Firing this guy nine months in and starting this process from the start once more, with no promise that the next one would be any better. In fact, s/he may very well be worse. If you don't believe that's a possibility, just look at the people who were screaming for Wrobel's head for who knows how long and are now, jokingly or otherwise, going "Gosh, I kind of wish we had him back."

daedalusAI

Morgul667 wrote: »

U27 is like in one year

Do you seriously expect people to wait quietly for one year while game is being trashed and say nothing about it?

U23 PTS feedback regarding DoTs didn't change a thing, so it doesn't matter if you say something or not, ZOS will do as they please.

Save your time and money, go to other MMORPGs/MMOs and come back in 1 year, maybe their touted long-term plan changed something, but considering ZOS's track record they will have changed it for the worse because that's the expected outcome.

daedalusAI

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

If ZoS doesn't do what you say they should do it's not necessarily because they don't listen, it could also be that they simply don't agree with you about what this game should be.

I am going to say this loud and clear here:

It doesn't matter if ZoS agrees with their customers or not. Know why? Your customers are right. This is where so many game development companies end up failing. Customers pay the bills, they pay the salaries. At the end of the day, once a product is released to the public it is no longer yours, it is your customers. This is the same in any industry.

What ZoS wants means jack diddly. Because if they get what they want but paying customers don't want it - guess where it leads?

Sorry, but this is the harsh reality of the business world. Without satisfied paying customers you do not have a business and many people do not have a job. Basic fact of life.

Something game developers would do well to heed. Their industry is rife with companies living high on the hog one day and being in the dust bin of history the next.

The *actual* harsh reality? Many of the people who think they know the most about the way things should be and are the most strident about it are actually the most clueless. And while there are certainly those games which failed because of a "We know best" philosophy, there are also examples of those which caved to their customers, giving them exactly what they wanted, only to lose their way and collapse as a result. Unfortunately, there's very little unified agreement on which direction to go. Just look at the response to this patch and you'll see what I mean. You've got those saying this is fine and those screaming it isn't. You've got those demanding melee and class DoTs to be better than everything else and those shouting it's the worst thing ever. You've got those suggesting to nerf Rele, Lokk, and light attacks, and those saying they should just get better at the game. It seems like for every suggestion that pops up, you wind up with people on both sides. So which of their paying customers should they listen to, exactly? *Which* customer is right? Only the ones who pay the most? Only the ones who know the most? Only the ones who agree with you?

In January of this year, they announced they were parting ways with Wrobel. It appears to have been an amicable enough parting, but it seems evident they're going in a different direction than he was. Apparently, they prefer Wheeler's vision, whatever it may be, or at least feel that it aligns better with theirs. That's why he has the job, and someone else doesn't. That's also the transition period that's being referred to. Regardless of how long Wrobel had the job, regardless of how long the game's been around, Wheeler's steering the combat boat now. When you get a new manager, especially after the company's decided they don't like the direction the old one was going in, odds are very good you're not going to be going in the same direction. Odds are also good that, once the new person's in place, regardless of how old the company is, there's going to be a period where everyone's trying to get on the same page.

Additionally, while I understand that people are angry and frustrated (I'm also scratching my head at some of the changes, feeling a bit of whiplash, and feeling less than excited about the sustain nerfs), claims that, simply because this game's been around for five years, he has no right to change things (dramatically or otherwise) and adamant declarations that it doesn't matter what they think, they'd better do what the community says even if they disagree with it, and if they don't, they're either not listening or being contemptuous or have some nefarious underlying motive, is, frankly, ridiculous. He has every right to change things. That's his job. You have every right to disagree, to explain why in a way that doesn't violate forum rules, or, if you truly wish, to find a use of your money that you feel might be more beneficial. But he's not a trained dancing monkey, and he's not required, by any stretch of the imagination, to blindly follow your whims, whichever way the wind may be blowing a given day. It doesn't mean the combat team's evil, sitting in a smoke-filled room talking about new and exciting ways to make the players' lives a nightmare (if anyone's doing that, it's probably @ZOS_Finn ;-p ). It just means they think differently.

You know what would be truly terrible? Firing this guy nine months in and starting this process from the start once more, with no promise that the next one would be any better. In fact, s/he may very well be worse. If you don't believe that's a possibility, just look at the people who were screaming for Wrobel's head for who knows how long and are now, jokingly or otherwise, going "Gosh, I kind of wish we had him back."

Fair enough: but doing a 180° in terms of DoT scaling from U23 to U24 just screams clueless, as there is no information provided about the long-term goal of where ESO's combat is supposed to go or why a complete 180° is even necessary in the first place.

U23 PTS feedback regarding the ridiculous DoT scaling has been ignored in its entirety, so I'd say q.e.d in terms them not listening.

We as the customers can't force the monkey to dance the way we want if the monkey doesn't want to, but then we just go to another monkey which is open to customer concerns/needs/feedback and give this monkey our money to see him dance.

Intriguing that you're afraid that this cycle of "mindblowing buffs followed by mindblowing nerfs" might be repeated again if a new guy comes around in 9 months, but you're fine that the cycle is currently happening in plain view with U24.

Dreyloch

Look folks,
All of this...ALL ...OF...THIS...comes down to ONE balancing concept. One which ZoS refuses to embrace. Make PvP and PvE work differently in terms of damage. For as long as I've played this game they have flat out REFUSED to do this. Because someone who doesn't have a clue makes the decisions and thinks that both types of play are interchangelable. When everyone...EVERYONE who has spent time and money playing it know it's simply JUST NOT WORKING!!!!

We have no directional post. We have no idea what the "Big Picture" is. There could be things that correct all of this, but they just won't tell us about it. It's pretty much the same as having faith in a deity. No idea what the grand plan is and just simply take it on faith that it will get better!?!?!?!?

This is not how a business should run. Not in video games, not in ANY kind of business.... period.

Nordic__Knights

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

Transition: "change or passage from one state or stage to another"
Transition Period: "the period of time during which something changes from one state or stage to another ".

ESO is actually in a transition period and Update 23, Update 24 are part of it, maybe till Update 27 a lot of changes will happen in the game, Up and down, back and forth. Dev's will test things to find out the best recipe for the game.

Trial and error is a fundamental method of problem-solving and it requires TIME.

Till the moment that they figure out what to do with the champion system and make all systems works together well

Cp system (or any new system taking its place) + Skills + Sets + Adjusting the content

Don't expect any "everything is fine", the game will shake a lot, but that is the nature of any transition period when trying to find a better solution.

As players, our role in this is to provide feedback in a way that helps them to navigate better in that mess testing the changes and explain the results we have to show what is broken, what is really bad, what is actually an improvement.

And this can be done without insulting each other or the dev's folks...

This update has a lot of things that are actually improvements and many things that still need a lot of work to improve.

Screaming at each other and raging may be fun to some of you (at least it looks like it) but it's totally useless...

DO your testings, give feedback, Explain your result and give your opinion concerning those results

And this transition period will be shorter, It's understandable that some of you feel bad about certain thing, I do as well and it's okay to feel bad about certain things, of course, but crowding the forum with hatred doesn't help at all. It just makes everything confused and tedious!

ZOS is a small team compared to other MMO big development studios and it's also a young one, keep that in mind

IF you don't want to help because "you're paying for it", "it's their job to know what to do" think about how well yourself is performing at your job in which somebody pays you for...

SO just do what you have to do during this transition period and try to be human at least IRL... quality lost for long on these forums.

Everything will be fine folks, breathe!

I agree with you on all of this but at the same time eso needs to understand that during this time communication with its player base would be a lot more helpful than silence because along with the changes so frequently and the silence that we get when asking the question as to where are they going with all the changes we get no response and it's not like they asked you know a five-year vet of the game if we wanted to deal with these frequently changed aspects of the game over and over and over again without ever being able to settle in and play the game and right now at this Crossroad it still doesn't seem like we're going to be able to because after this patch comes the next patch and how many patches thereafter as you done said u27 to my understanding that's over a year long time to continually go up and down up and down so yes a lots of people would rather go and move on to something more stable and then were are they going to get their responses in regards to their changes if they don't have nobody here and I think communication would bring a lot of the unease out of the player base and get them more willing to help instead of just be toxic

Olupajmibanan

Most of us can agree that drastic changes happen way too frequently. I haven't fully recovered from Elsweyr changes and booom, Scalebreaker dropped. I haven't fully recovered from Scalebreaker changes yet and booooom, Dragonhold is knocking on the door. When you have a lot of different characters and you actively use them, this three-month update pattern will feel extremely disturbing.