This change to mounts is just stupid

scorpius2k1

So basically, mounts are going to function as they should but why has it been the way it has been for so long? Seems like such a commonplace feature would have been designed properly from the start yeah? Anyone remember a few patches back, they already had put that "fix" in, but then took it out saying it was a "mistake" so they reverted it just last month (August 18, see snips from 5.1.6 patch notes below)....aaaaand now all of a sudden it's coming back with update 24. Sorry, just feels like gentle *wink* *wink* towards buying those mount upgrades in the Crown Store. Nothing more odd than seeing yourself and other players sprint faster than your mount can run for the first 60 days of "speed" upgrades. Sure, you could login every day for the next 180 days (6 months) for free to fully upgrade your mount...but...convenience usually wins the wallet just as it does with skill lines. Really, let's be honest, everything in ESO is aimed at the Crown Store to "relieve your frustrations and grind woes" with the game they designed the way it is. Sure, they have to make money BUT it just would feel nice if microtransactions didn't feel so "in your face" and the main focus all the time. The silver lining here is at least they are fixing things that have been long-standing though right?

On the topic of mount speed upgrades:
Why not redesign the system to work a little better. Make mount speed upgrades work like bag space, incrementally more expensive per-upgrade (250...500...1000...2000...etc), but then also keep the 20h cooldown from last upgrade which would then put it back to baseline of 250g. Wayshrines already have this type of increment/cooldown. Putting a system in place like this with mounts would make leveling your mounts a lot more aligned with leveling your toons imho. Of course, if you don't have the gold, you still have the crown store option too...

EDIT: "ZOS - We've been here before already, reverted it...and now we're going back"

Patch Notes 5.1.6 - August 18, 2019 - "Sprinting on a mount on empty stamina no longer incorrectly reduces your speed."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490035/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-1-6#latest

Varana

At first, there were only horses.
At some point, they had planned (or thought about) giving different mounts varying perks. Horses being able to continue sprinting when out of stamina, was one of those. (I believe the cat mounts not stopping after jumping is a remnant of the same plan but that's only conjecture.) They scrapped that system later on but left the sprinting feature in (because horses were already in the game, so they had gotten the perk).

Rave the Histborn

Mr_Walker wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

This change is absurd. I don't do a lot of PVP in Cyrodiil, but this will make travel in that zone even more aggravating than it already is.

On what occasion do you actually run out of 60/60 stamina though?

It takes me a full third of the Cyrodiil map (with rapids) to run out of stamina at full 60 stamina. That’s more than enough to get anywhere you need to go.

Best to test this on PTS yourself ... before posting more whines and jumping to conclusions.

Not really the point. Getting TO 60 speed, 60 stamina, 60 capacity is the issue. For years people have not had to worry about wasting all that time increasing stamina and could focus on speed, then capacity.

Now they make stamina more important, so you get to waste 2 more months adding a dot per day.

Hey, did you know they sell stam upgrades to your mount in the crown store?

Hey did you know not everyone wants to spend their paychecks on mount upgrades?

Elsonso

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Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

This change is absurd. I don't do a lot of PVP in Cyrodiil, but this will make travel in that zone even more aggravating than it already is.

On what occasion do you actually run out of 60/60 stamina though?

It takes me a full third of the Cyrodiil map (with rapids) to run out of stamina at full 60 stamina. That’s more than enough to get anywhere you need to go.

Best to test this on PTS yourself ... before posting more whines and jumping to conclusions.

Not really the point. Getting TO 60 speed, 60 stamina, 60 capacity is the issue. For years people have not had to worry about wasting all that time increasing stamina and could focus on speed, then capacity.

Now they make stamina more important, so you get to waste 2 more months adding a dot per day.

Hey, did you know they sell stam upgrades to your mount in the crown store?

Hey did you know not everyone wants to spend their paychecks on mount upgrades?

ZOS will have someone out there shortly to discuss this with you.

Rave the Histborn

dem0n1k wrote: »

ZOS probably discovered that hardly anyone was upgrading the stamina perk on their horses & thought "we''ll get these hamsters back in their wheels!" I always priorities Speed upgrades first, then inventory & hardly ever bothered with stam upgrades... THANKS ZOS !@#$

That's because since launch mounts were designed to not need stamina like that. Odd they want to change it now, so long into the games life but I guess they need to cause more problems then they already do.

DocDova

I have 6 character with everything maxed out and 2 with just 15 and 30 points remaining in stamina. Remaining would also get there, I guess doing daily writs and then going to stables regularly helped as I never brought riding lessons. So I don't mind these changes and they raised stamina and stamina recovery, lets see how it goes, no point in going negative without trying it first. Maybe everyone will like it.

ItsMeToo

NBrookus wrote: »

ItsMeToo wrote: »

Use the War Mount in the CP Tree.

Magicka builds say hi.

It's on my Magicka build, so hi.

Rave the Histborn

lordrichter wrote: »

.

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

This change is absurd. I don't do a lot of PVP in Cyrodiil, but this will make travel in that zone even more aggravating than it already is.

On what occasion do you actually run out of 60/60 stamina though?

It takes me a full third of the Cyrodiil map (with rapids) to run out of stamina at full 60 stamina. That’s more than enough to get anywhere you need to go.

Best to test this on PTS yourself ... before posting more whines and jumping to conclusions.

Not really the point. Getting TO 60 speed, 60 stamina, 60 capacity is the issue. For years people have not had to worry about wasting all that time increasing stamina and could focus on speed, then capacity.

Now they make stamina more important, so you get to waste 2 more months adding a dot per day.

Hey, did you know they sell stam upgrades to your mount in the crown store?

Hey did you know not everyone wants to spend their paychecks on mount upgrades?

ZOS will have someone out there shortly to discuss this with you.

This is how we find Gina "Brutal" Bruno is really the chief enforcer for ZOS's monetary growth division.

Hazurko_RaShan

SkerKro wrote: »

"Change can be good, change can be bad. Change is often inevitable. Hershey's Bar - unchanged since 1819."

Hershey's Chocolate.

that should have been a poll!

xxthir13enxx

Stuck in Combat and can’t mount?

Here we fixed it for you....mounting won’t help you get there much more anyways so you may as well just run...prob solved.

Hazurko_RaShan

corpseblade wrote: »

I always thought it would make more sense. Stamina decreases when we sprint, correct? Why wouldn't your mount get tired as well?

Horses are actually built to run, esp long distances. It's how they are designed. The gallop actually helps them to breathe. It's utter nonsense that riding stamina is a skill such as it is in this game. But then this game violates the known laws of physics in too many ways to possibly list.

idk

Varana wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

This change is absurd. I don't do a lot of PVP in Cyrodiil, but this will make travel in that zone even more aggravating than it already is.

On what occasion do you actually run out of 60/60 stamina though?

Some people play characters that don't have 60 speed + stamina yet?
Under-50s Cyrodiil will be a lot more painful.

No offense but if you are running out of stamina then you are making yourself an easy target since one tap knocks you off your mount.

Further, what OP conveniently left out of the quote from the patch notes, and you are also avoiding, is max stam for the mount is being increased and the cost for sprinting is being decreased. Oh, which you also conveniently edited out of what you quoted that it is a good idea to test these changes out vs just complaining about them.

dennissomb16_ESO

It is more about timing. They should have made the change in the first month of release, not 5 years later. Doing it now is just silly.

Varana

@idk
I will edit out lots of things. Not because they don't matter but because they have been posted already. I don't need to repeat them, you've read them already. (I hope.) If not, you can scroll up. Or even use the handy navigation provided with the quote function. Quoting someone is for making sure people know what post I'm referring to, and maybe point out which section of a longer post I'm focusing on.

---

Being a target doesn't matter when you're travelling between keeps in Cyrodiil. The number of times when that actually matters because some random enemy guy is stranded behind the front and decided to attack, is almost negligible.
99% of riding around Cyrodiil is spent in lonely contemplation of the bare-bones landscape.

If the increase in max stam and stam recovery lead to a similar experience, i.e. near-infinite gallop unless there's some obstacle, then I seriously question the necessity of the change. I understand that they refactored some of the behind-the-scenes stuff, but then just re-implementing the original behaviour would've resulted in less friction, instead of "fixing" it and then tinkering with several other values to simulate the intended user experience.

Vlad9425

Why fix something that isn’t broken? Because ZOS thinks they are great doing all these changes just for the sake of change.

idk

Varana wrote: »

@idk
I will edit out lots of things. Not because they don't matter but because they have been posted already. I don't need to repeat them, you've read them already. (I hope.) If not, you can scroll up. Or even use the handy navigation provided with the quote function. Quoting someone is for making sure people know what post I'm referring to, and maybe point out which section of a longer post I'm focusing on.

---

Being a target doesn't matter when you're travelling between keeps in Cyrodiil. The number of times when that actually matters because some random enemy guy is stranded behind the front and decided to attack, is almost negligible.
99% of riding around Cyrodiil is spent in lonely contemplation of the bare-bones landscape.

If the increase in max stam and stam recovery lead to a similar experience, i.e. near-infinite gallop unless there's some obstacle, then I seriously question the necessity of the change. I understand that they refactored some of the behind-the-scenes stuff, but then just re-implementing the original behaviour would've resulted in less friction, instead of "fixing" it and then tinkering with several other values to simulate the intended user experience.

My comment was very much in context of what you did quote and what you did say. Considering you had not posted anything before then and I guarantee you do not let everyone that had already posted speak for you the excuse presented is BS.

Again, test it or get someone you know to test it because if statements are pretty meaningless obvious reasons. Also, reasonable testing. Not some mount with only +5 stam because that is just silly..

BTW, if this does actually help contribute to the overall picture of server performance, which they will be monitoring, I really could care less as it would be a good thing overall.

Jeremy

SkerKro wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

In a patch full of bad decisions, I just want to highlight this gem.

"Like on-foot sprint, mounts will now stop sprinting when their Stamina is fully drained. However, we’ve decreased the Stamina cost of mounted sprint and greatly increased both base Stamina and base Recovery for mounts."

I am just tired of all of this. Just really tired.

It was always kind of stupid how you could keep sprinting after you ran out of stamina. So I'm not sure why so many people believe this is a stupid change. I always assumed it was a bug anyway.

Or could be something similar to the real world phenomenon known as "Second wind / Breaking past the Runner's Wall."
Able to maintain cureent speed and stamina as long as you kept moving, when/if you stop where you become fatigued, drained and had to recover your endurance back to start sprinting again.

Kinda like what currently is in game, running on empty, but soon as you stop. Sluggish, and have to wait for at least 2-to-3 ticks to get back up to speed again.

That's a creative defense. I'll give you points for that.

Nestor

Who asked for this change and how does it make gameplay better?

idk

Nestor wrote: »

Who asked for this change and how does it make gameplay better?

Zos says it is for server performance. However, they do not explain the how or why of that.

Elsonso

Nestor wrote: »

Who asked for this change and how does it make gameplay better?

Near as I can tell, from Live, is that no one was asking for it, they weren't going to fix it, but someone was in the code, saw it, got approval to fix it, and then they probably iterated over the whole thing tuning it.

From what I see above, I am thinking that the overall effect is roughly the same, but that they could have saved themselves a boatload of development, tuning, and testing and just left it alone.

Alucardo

Oh boy, riding from one end of Cyrodiil to the other is sure gonna be fun

Kuramas9tails

max_only wrote: »

Gnome_Saiyan wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

I actually thought this was how it was supposed to function when I first started playing.

Same. At first I thought it was a bug when my mount, Chicken Senchilada, ran out of stam yet kept sprinting. Felt like cheating. Glad it's now "in line" with how stamina's supposed to work.

No. Stamina is what upgrades your mounts armor. When you take damage while mounted the stamina decreases.

@max_only To be fair, the visual bar for the mount running speed is, in fact, green, which is associated with stamina. The stamina bar used for running and stamina used for armor should be made more clear VIA ZOS's responsibility. IMO, ZOS should have 2 bars up when on a mount, one for speed integrity and one for armor integrity that way you can see when your mount will be knocking you off before it happens.

Edit: Also to note to have both bars DIFFERENT colors but I assume green should still be used for speed since, when players run, it uses the green stamina bar to associate with running/sprinting and the armor should be red to associate with health.

Lylith

SydneyGrey wrote: »

They seem to just like changing things for the sake of changing them.

that's been the underlying theme for a couple years, now, imho.

Lylith

BlueRaven wrote: »

In a patch full of bad decisions, I just want to highlight this gem.

"Like on-foot sprint, mounts will now stop sprinting when their Stamina is fully drained. However, we’ve decreased the Stamina cost of mounted sprint and greatly increased both base Stamina and base Recovery for mounts."

I am just tired of all of this. Just really tired.

you're not alone in that.

RavenSworn

lordrichter wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

I actually thought this was how it was supposed to function when I first started playing.

Yeah. We were told it was "intended", which was basically a bug they were not planning to fix. Like animation canceling.

Wait when? When was it told it qas intended? Its a bug, it just took zos too long to rectify it.

Red_Feather

In cyrodiil as soon as I go over a bump I lose sprint and have to wait anyway for stamina to sprint again.
At least now it recharges much faster and drains much slower.

Varana

idk wrote: »

Also, reasonable testing. Not some mount with only +5 stam because that is just silly.

Why not? That are the characters who will be affected most. (And they do exist. u50 campaigns are there for a reason.)

Elsonso

RavenSworn wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

I actually thought this was how it was supposed to function when I first started playing.

Yeah. We were told it was "intended", which was basically a bug they were not planning to fix. Like animation canceling.

Wait when? When was it told it was intended? Its a bug, it just took zos too long to rectify it.

This goes way back to 2014, which is how long this has been in the game. To call it a "bug" is not really accurate, per the information we got back then. It's actually a perk for horses, but then Crown Store came along, mounts became uniform cosmetic things sold for Crowns, and they never removed the perk. All new mounts came with the perk.

psycoprophet

What? So what ur telling me is the changed mounts to follow suit how any mount with a stamina bar act in every other vid? It made no sense to have a stamina bar before if u had infinite sprint lol of course ur horse should return to base speed when out of stamina, only makes sense no?

Elsonso

psycoprophet wrote: »

What? So what ur telling me is the changed mounts to follow suit how any mount with a stamina bar act in every other vid? It made no sense to have a stamina bar before if u had infinite sprint lol of course ur horse should return to base speed when out of stamina, only makes sense no?

Well, the horse stamina bar was supposed to indicate when the horse would toss you after an attack.