Trader swap issue - EU server

VaranisArano

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IDK how the guild trader thing worked or which guild got the trader in the end. So i have no idea how much control people had over that.

IDK, shouldn't you, like, know what you're talking about before talking? (Can we request a perma-ban for this?)

I understand perfectly well that people got more money back than they initially bid.

If they used that money it´s exploiting a bug. Those people i think should get banned. Playing dumb doesn´t work there.

Then why do you not clamour for the ban of guildmasters who exploited the bug and hired apparently "free" traders?

(Not that I think you should. This whole witchhunt is stupid. But if you request drastic measures, apply them equally.)

Because they, technically, acted exactly as the game allows if no glitch had happened.

As designed, ESO opens all traders for purchase if they arent owned after a set amount of time. Due to ZOS' cluster**ck of a multibid on PC/EU, all of the traders were available because no bids/ownership were properly processed. On PC/NA, multibidding worked fine, and all unowned traders were open.

Being able to buy unowned traders isnt a bug. It's always been that way. Players/Guilds who bought unowned traders were techincally playing the game as intended.

Whereas I'd be very interested to hear your justification for GMs spending the excessive refunds they knew full well were excessive and not intended.

Derra

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IDK how the guild trader thing worked or which guild got the trader in the end. So i have no idea how much control people had over that.

IDK, shouldn't you, like, know what you're talking about before talking? (Can we request a perma-ban for this?)

I understand perfectly well that people got more money back than they initially bid.

If they used that money it´s exploiting a bug. Those people i think should get banned. Playing dumb doesn´t work there.

Then why do you not clamour for the ban of guildmasters who exploited the bug and hired apparently "free" traders?

(Not that I think you should. This whole witchhunt is stupid. But if you request drastic measures, apply them equally.)

Because i don´t ask for the same punishment for someone who steals a parking spot as for someone who prints his money at home.

Then also one is a temporary issue with nobody remembering in a week.
The money if spent will probably not leave the game economy.

Lisutaris

VaranisArano wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

IDK how the guild trader thing worked or which guild got the trader in the end. So i have no idea how much control people had over that.

IDK, shouldn't you, like, know what you're talking about before talking? (Can we request a perma-ban for this?)

I understand perfectly well that people got more money back than they initially bid.

If they used that money it´s exploiting a bug. Those people i think should get banned. Playing dumb doesn´t work there.

Then why do you not clamour for the ban of guildmasters who exploited the bug and hired apparently "free" traders?

(Not that I think you should. This whole witchhunt is stupid. But if you request drastic measures, apply them equally.)

Because they, technically, acted exactly as the game allows if no glitch had happened.

As designed, ESO opens all traders for purchase if they arent owned after a set amount of time. Due to ZOS' cluster**ck of a multibid on PC/EU, all of the traders were available because no bids/ownership were properly processed. On PC/NA, multibidding worked fine, and all unowned traders were open.

Being able to buy unowned traders isnt a bug. It's always been that way. Players/Guilds who bought unowned traders were techincally playing the game as intended.

Whereas I'd be very interested to hear your justification for GMs spending the excessive refunds they knew full well were excessive and not intended.

To hire a trading spot you have to be a guild of 50+ppl and knowledge how to do it.
so you are telling us, they thought its completely normal that there are a lot of free spots in the best places like craglorn, deshaan, and so on?????? No one tried to bid on them??

Sry, that's also not okay, making full use of the error from ZOS and they knew that. BUT, can understand everyone who hired for 10k...craglorn lol....! Wet dream of a trading guild to be there
Same goes for the fight over materials.... In a crashing economy you want to change cash into something like upgrade materials, houses, stuff that wont be lost or just getting worthless. Read up some history. If ppl are in fear that their money can drop in value, they are going to spend it as quick as possible.

Most of the ppl or gm (does not matter) which did that, are acting like an intelligent being before an economy will go crazy or in worst case.... breaking down for good.
heck, you learned it from real life history how you should react if this happens.

[EDIT: Also, to defend the small guilds (even big guilds) who did that .... imagine a lot of ppl running to the supermarktet to get something and not end up being empty handed .... you can try to trust politics/government that they will help you if needed... or start running, .... what would you do ? Don't understimate the power of "fear". Punishing them is the wrong move as they didn't want to harm anyone with it... but secure their place in the digital world called tamriel.]


Well, it still sucks

GarnetFire17

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Exploiting = ban

So it is possible the same happens another sunday! also it could happen on other servers, too, if they have unusual high load.

Great!

how is ZOS deciding to give gold to some people an exploit? They got gold because they were the victims of a BUG. And the ones that hired a trader, how where they supposed to know it was hired already? All they did was see a trader was open an hire it. They don't know that open spots are popping up all over the place and if so it's a bug. There were quite a few spots that opened up on PC NA because some gulids decided to move. This is not on anyone but ZOS for not anticipating the problem and needing to extend the time for the traders to be inaccessible so their new system has enough time to finish before this could happen.

reoskit

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap, yes?

Guild got extra gold; no one touched the gold
- This is a bug. No ban/punishment is required. The gold should be removed by ZOS. End of story.

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action

Guild bid and "won" their kiosk but didn't keep their kiosk
- The money from the "won" bid needs to be refunded to the guild.
- TBCH, these guys got screwed harder than anyone else and deserve a serious apology. They had their money taken away and got nothing for it, AND they don't have that gold or this week's kiosk income to fund a bid next week.

Post flip, guild hired a kiosk for 10k
- This is the completely legitimate mechanism working as it should.
- If you don't understand the bid versus hire mechanics, you need to stop commentating about it!
- At 5 minutes post flip, the hire option shows for any kiosk not won in the bidding process. The bids failed to finish processing in the window between bid lock and flip - as such, the kiosks were put up for hire.
- Any guild with 50+ members and 10,000g has the ability and the right to hire an unwon kiosk. It is not an exploit or banable offense to use that mechanic. No one hiring a kiosk had time to understand WHY the kiosks were available, but hiring the kiosk was absolutely legitimate.
- If anyone is suggesting that, en masse, all EU players with hiring rights should have stood down and no one should have hired an available kiosk... well, you're simply naive. There was nothing to indicate that it shouldn't be used because X guild got there first.

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs. Period.


Edit - Clarification.

Edit 2 - Removed my opinion on which punishment is appropriate.

reoskit

reoskit wrote: »

- At 5 minutes post flip, the hire option shows for any kiosk not won in the bidding process. The bids failed to finish processing by the end of the 5 minute window - as such, the kiosks were put up for hire.

Regarding why this didn't happen on NA:
One GM reported seeing a message after the 5 minute window that said s/he couldn't hire until the bids were processed.

This indicates (speculation) that the mechanic was changed to not count 5 minutes. Either more time was allotted to process all the multibids, or the hire mechanic was set to have a dependency that all bids had finished processing.

Either way, if I'm close to right, I appreciate that this was changed on the fly to keep NA from experiencing the same issue.

idk

reoskit wrote: »

Pleeeease consult with GMs on changing bid flip timing. This is extremely important to us and our officer teams.


Edit: phone typo.

Edit 2.0: Nevermind. In the heat of continuing to care about my guild and guildies, I forgot that our feedback goes into the void. Disregard, per usual.

What is odd about your statement is that Zos changed when guild traders flipped based on feedback from the leaders of guild traders. Hopefully the seek their advice again but it is clear that is has to occur outside of peak playing times.

reoskit

idk wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Pleeeease consult with GMs on changing bid flip timing. This is extremely important to us and our officer teams.


Edit: phone typo.

Edit 2.0: Nevermind. In the heat of continuing to care about my guild and guildies, I forgot that our feedback goes into the void. Disregard, per usual.

What is odd about your statement is that Zos changed when guild traders flipped based on feedback from the leaders of guild traders. Hopefully the seek their advice again but it is clear that is has to occur outside of peak playing times.

Yup, I addressed that with Sylvie somewhere in all these pages. As I said to her, that change was made 3 years ago. Back then, as I understand it, ZOS was speaking with GMs and taking feedback, which sounds so freaking awesome.

My exasperation, however, stems from the complete lack of consideration given to all of us who provided feedback on multibidding, as recently as this month.

I don't see a sudden revert back to the behavior of 3 years ago, given the way multibidding was handled. That said, I would love to be proven wrong.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

reoskit wrote: »

idk wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Pleeeease consult with GMs on changing bid flip timing. This is extremely important to us and our officer teams.


Edit: phone typo.

Edit 2.0: Nevermind. In the heat of continuing to care about my guild and guildies, I forgot that our feedback goes into the void. Disregard, per usual.

What is odd about your statement is that Zos changed when guild traders flipped based on feedback from the leaders of guild traders. Hopefully the seek their advice again but it is clear that is has to occur outside of peak playing times.

Yup, I addressed that with Sylvie somewhere in all these pages. As I said to her, that change was made 3 years ago. Back then, as I understand it, ZOS was speaking with GMs and taking feedback, which sounds so freaking awesome.

My exasperation, however, stems from the complete lack of consideration given to all of us who provided feedback on multibidding, as recently as this month.

I don't see a sudden revert back to the behavior of 3 years ago, given the way multibidding was handled. That said, I would love to be proven wrong.

I brought this up in several of the multi bid threads and PTS threads.
If irc, it was called the "Council of Nirn". At the time I knew 4-5 GM's that were a part of this.'
Basically, ZoS would get together online about once a month or so with GM's from the biggest/ most active guilds, listen to feedback, suggestions, etc.
Yes this is how trader flip time got changed and lots more.

Any old members still around? What happened to this?
Obviously it disbanded as ZoS has ignored the GM's on forums. I really think it should be brought back! Imo...
My 2 Drakes...
Huzzah!

DonTomas

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

[snip]

EDIT: sorry for the harsh tone, but I was little bit upset that a US guildmaster (as in: playing on a US server) tells me how to appropriately punish European guildmembers. I agree with my fellow guildmaster in most points.

[edited for non-constructive and inappropriate comment]

VaranisArano

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

[snip]

My dear fellow player, this was an incident on the EU server, it maybe a good time for you to stop demanding death penalty in foreign lands - just my 2 cents, as usual.

Can we maybe not conflate ZOS disciplining players for breaking their TOS with real world governments punishing criminals?

[snip], all of us ESO players have the same TOS and Code of Conduct for ESO and thus are subject to the same ZOS-enforced penalties.

I mean, if you wanna argue that permabans shouldnt happen, you go right ahead...

But the legality of the real world death penalty has nothing to do with ZOS' right to permaban player for exploiting (by spending the excessive refunds) if ZOS deems it appropriate.

(Also, I though that the H in IMHO meant "honest". I have now learned something new today!")

[edited for non-constructive and inappropriate comment]

reoskit

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

Oh, you are from the U.S. , well thanks that explains something, doesn’t it?

My dear fellow player, this was an incident on the EU server, it maybe a good time for you to stop demanding death penalty in foreign lands - just my 2 cents, as usual.

... Wait, what?

Death penalty? Foreign lands? Who even said which nation I'm from? What in the...

I agree with you on one point, though. I said to not call for blood; I should have left out my personal opinion regarding the precise punishment of the ToS-violating, morals-lacking people who thought it alright to take and spend money that wasn't theirs.

My bad.

silvereyes

Well, that escalated quickly.

SammiSakura

silvereyes wrote: »

Well, that escalated quickly.

i feel thats just the entire situation from sunday onwards

ShowMeYourMoney

On this topic, I actually have this performance issue reported back in Dec 2017 (ticket# 171227-000063, if any zos guys wants to check). But back then, it was you could use guild bank to replicate mats, especially at peak time. I was very certain it was casued by performance issue related to the guild bank/trading system, and advised ZOS of such.
But ZOS simply replied me that's an addon issue and is not their concern. Well, no intererst in reporting bugs any more - Just another addon issue

SammiSakura

I do hope all the CM's and devs are having fun at gamescon this week >.>

tim99

at which factor are we talking for the bid-refunds?
some got bid x4, which is very bad... but i heard some got bidd x300, specially one guy who bid 30 mil, and got refunded with 9 billions.

anitajoneb17_ESO

tim99 wrote: »

at which factor are we talking for the bid-refunds?
some got bid x4, which is very bad... but i heard some got bidd x300, specially one guy who bid 30 mil, and got refunded with 9 billions.

At some point someone will claim to have been sent to the Moon. Don't believe everything you hear...

tim99

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

tim99 wrote: »

at which factor are we talking for the bid-refunds?
some got bid x4, which is very bad... but i heard some got bidd x300, specially one guy who bid 30 mil, and got refunded with 9 billions.

At some point someone will claim to have been sent to the Moon. Don't believe everything you hear...

well, if neil armstrong tells you that?

but its a trustworthy source, more than a stranger in a mostly trollforum who tells me not to believe it
but i know what you mean, ofc i havent seen any prove, but still very disturbing infos.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Having the same amount of gold repeatedly refunded a varying amount of times, as well as receiving multiple messages about traders won, are both consistent with a classic coding error: assuming that slow or stalled database queries have failed, while they are in fact just piling up in a transaction queue.

Given the extreme unresponsiveness of the server around the time of the trader swap, I can believe that some lucky GM got refunded 300 times for a multi-million bid because of a too short and improperly coded query timeout. I have no idea whether it actually happened, or if the above classic mistake was actually the cause of the problem, but the rumor of a 300x refund certainly passes the smell test.

DonTomas

5

reoskit wrote: »

... Wait, what?

Death penalty? Foreign lands? Who even said which nation I'm from? What in the...

I agree with you on one point, though. I said to not call for blood; I should have left out my personal opinion regarding the precise punishment of the ToS-violating, morals-lacking people who thought it alright to take and spend money that wasn't theirs.

My bad.

Accepted, sorry I got a bit angry, don’t take it (too) personal

DonTomas

tim99 wrote: »

at which factor are we talking for the bid-refunds?
some got bid x4, which is very bad... but i heard some got bidd x300, specially one guy who bid 30 mil, and got refunded with 9 billions.

Unsuccessful bids where refunded 6 times in my case, successful bid (which I got no trader for), was deducted 7 times.
Overall a good gain because we have placed bids for 5 traders. Kind of...LOL

agegarton

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

Lisutaris

agegarton wrote: »

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

True, that's the real problem, not the playerbase

@reoskit
Sry to say it out loud .... but if 3-4 spots in craglorn are free to take.... you should realise that there is something wrong. I am not calling for punishment, heck no. I would have also hired a tier1 spot if i got the chance to do so.
BUT, Trading-Guilds WON that bid. It just didn't get linked to them and their spot/guild. Therefore it was free to take for everyone EXCEPT guilds that have already won a bid.... (guild page showed that you have already won and are having a trader, no possibility to hire again).
So, if you take that into consideration ... guilds that hired for 10k... "STOLE" (zos fault -.-) the trader from an guild which paid for it ... (it didn't get refunded, if you are unlucky ... you paid it multiple times .... ).

Well, whatever.
If the same error happens again ... with same refund money.... let me tell you how monday will work out for us:

rumple9

Prices are getting stupid now

Lisutaris

rumple9 wrote: »

Prices are getting stupid now

You will see the real impact next week. Most big trading guilds have no trader .... see above. (there is not much stuff on the market)
Right now, prices can be ignored .... just don't buy until next week and wait.

SammiSakura

agegarton wrote: »

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Blobsky

SammiSakura wrote: »

agegarton wrote: »

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Yup, this too

anitajoneb17_ESO

tim99 wrote: »

well, if neil armstrong tells you that?

That'd mean dead people speak to me and... I need help somehow :-)

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

I have no idea whether it actually happened, or if the above classic mistake was actually the cause of the problem, but the rumor of a 300x refund certainly passes the smell test.

Maybe or maybe not, but the exponential inflation in figures provided since sunday night and the increasing distance between the actual info and the info-giver (I mean, on sunday night, there were actual GMs giving figures about their own personal case, now it's a friend of a friend of a cousin of a friend who heard something in his mother-in-law's Discord) are more typical of a rumour than of actual facts, even if anything is possible with computing errors.

That being said, the higher the figures, the likelier it is that ZOS will seriously do something about it. If it's "only" a couple hundred millions floating around, they may let it go its course and be absorbed by the market, but if it's several or even dozens of billions, they WILL tackle the issue seriously.

anitajoneb17_ESO

SammiSakura wrote: »

THIS GUY'S GOT IT. I daren't bid yet seeing as we have no idea whats going on, how much of that gold is mine, just nothing at all

Well, I don't get it... isn't it pretty simple ? Don't you know how much you've bid, what trader you've got, what you should honestly have paid according to your bid, what should honestly have been returned to you, and what actually got returned to you ?
You know how much you "owe" to ZOS. Keep that, spend the rest however you like. Easy.