Trader swap issue - EU server

Gariele

Maybe today we will told it will be safe to bid. This is my only concern now.

Arrodisia

chess1ukb16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm rather surprised, to be honest, to hear that bid amounts weren't recorded by some GMs. I guess I'm skeptical enough about ZOS' new multibid that I would have kept track somewhere. Certainly after ZOS has turned off the guild history multiple times, I would have looked at using screenshots or paper recordkeeping as a backup.

I'm not going to try to tell GMs what to do. I've only ever been an officer in a trading guild, so not in the same league. You run your guilds how you want to run them.

But if I were you, having seen this mess happen and knowing that ZOS' go-to quick response is to shut down the guild history...

I'd start keeping screenshots or another record. Its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. IME, its a lot easier to make sure ZOS gets it right when you've got the records to double check them.

I screenshot all my bids for my guilds and repeated to at least 15+ GM's who were in the discord with me to do the same. But I did not check my bank and honestly, with the ins and outs across multiple times it's not as simple as it sounds. That said you can view guild history if you turn off addons that read it so every GM can review this info retrospectively.

That's good to know. Thanks for posting this in the thread.

chess1ukb16_ESO

To fix this ZoS will have to:

Step 1) Get a list of every guild that bid and put them in a spreadsheet.

Step 2) Search those guilds history and input the hire and refund amounts taking into account number of duplications.

Step 3) Then clawback / and in some cases repay the gold from guild banks.

Step 4) Where there is insufficient gold is where the real fun begins. What happens then?

Additional steps to help with appeals and error checking:

Step 5) load a backup of the server as it was just before the bid to test environment 1and jot down the balance of every impacted guild or just keep it available for support to reference
Step 6) Repeat step 5 but the backup should be just after the hire/refunds got placed on guild banks.

So much work. Just cannot believe ZoS have the people or will to do it.

anitajoneb17_ESO

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

<SNIP>

Why are you still responding to me ?

Ecstatica

I have already purchased a large bag of salty popcorn ready for Sunday evening!

Arrodisia

Maybe we should try opposites. We could say we don't want the performance fixed and we don't want feedback. Then maybe we'll get some of what we want.

Mathius_Mordred

Ecstatica wrote: »

I have already purchased a large bag of salty popcorn ready for Sunday evening!

Haha great idea, just popping out to get some!

anitajoneb17_ESO

Uryel wrote: »

You really believe it's always a single person who handles everything and keeps tabs on everything, like, I don't know, with a spreadsheet or something ? Why even keep tabs anyway ? When the game works as intended, your bids are either used up on the trader or paid back, so why bother ?

Whether it's a single person that does it, or several people who coordinate, bids are a well-thought decision and therefore naturally remembered. Noone "forgets" it.
And if there are severall guilds/bids to be considered, then there are calculations. Whether they're made on something as horribly modern as a spreadsheet or as horribly old-fashioned as a pen and a paper doesn't matter.
Whether people expected the patch to cause issue or not isn't relevant. They given the bids a lot of thought and therefore should remember it.
If I told you I don't remember how much the PC I bought last week cost, you'd laugh.
Well, all this "but we cannot know how much we've bid" is laughable too.

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

You really believe it's always a single person who handles everything and keeps tabs on everything, like, I don't know, with a spreadsheet or something ? Why even keep tabs anyway ? When the game works as intended, your bids are either used up on the trader or paid back, so why bother ?

Whether it's a single person that does it, or several people who coordinate, bids are a well-thought decision and therefore naturally remembered. Noone "forgets" it.
And if there are severall guilds/bids to be considered, then there are calculations. Whether they're made on something as horribly modern as a spreadsheet or as horribly old-fashioned as a pen and a paper doesn't matter.
Whether people expected the patch to cause issue or not isn't relevant. They given the bids a lot of thought and therefore should remember it.
If I told you I don't remember how much the PC I bought last week cost, you'd laugh.
Well, all this "but we cannot know how much we've bid" is laughable too.

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (first Choice) Spot.

Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Add in the fact that the biggest Trade Guilds get around 1m per day, only in Sales Tax and the fact you have no History atm.

Then you have no idea if some kind soul Donated 1m tot he Guildbank (Rare, but no unheard of), and all the small Donations ppl do out of Habit. Things get out of hand pretty quickly...

JN_Slevin

messed up

JN_Slevin

messed up again

Arrodisia

Ecstatica wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

it doesn't make sense at all actually.

I take it you stopped reading after the first sentence

Actually no. I did read it. I wasn't trying to counter you. I was disagreeing with the person you answered. I,accidentally, quoted you though instead of him. My apologies. I was a bit busy at the time.

Arrodisia

Cani wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

You really believe it's always a single person who handles everything and keeps tabs on everything, like, I don't know, with a spreadsheet or something ? Why even keep tabs anyway ? When the game works as intended, your bids are either used up on the trader or paid back, so why bother ?

Whether it's a single person that does it, or several people who coordinate, bids are a well-thought decision and therefore naturally remembered. Noone "forgets" it.
And if there are severall guilds/bids to be considered, then there are calculations. Whether they're made on something as horribly modern as a spreadsheet or as horribly old-fashioned as a pen and a paper doesn't matter.
Whether people expected the patch to cause issue or not isn't relevant. They given the bids a lot of thought and therefore should remember it.
If I told you I don't remember how much the PC I bought last week cost, you'd laugh.
Well, all this "but we cannot know how much we've bid" is laughable too.

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (first Choice) Spot.

Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Add in the fact that the biggest Trade Guilds get around 1m per day, only in Sales Tax and the fact you have no History atm.

Then you have no idea if some kind soul Donated 1m tot he Guildbank (Rare, but no unheard of), and all the small Donations ppl do out of Habit. Things get out of hand pretty quickly...

Very true. Our guilds get a lot of donations. I've seen players chucking anywhere from 50k up to 8 mill in donations, more often than some players think. We have a lot of kind, helpful players in this game. It's a shame. Those few paranoid trolls in the game, mess everything up for the honest guys and gals.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cani wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (firs Choice) Spot.
Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Either you don't give the bidding process as much thought, care and time as you should (and pretend to do), or you do but things get, as you say, blurry quickly, in which case the most basic common sense is to write it down. Not necessarily for reference for ZOS (noone could have predicted the current chaos), but for assessing the bidding levels at any given location, given the new system and its uncertainties.

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (firs Choice) Spot.
Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Either you don't give the bidding process as much thought, care and time as you should (and pretend to do), or you do but things get, as you say, blurry quickly, in which case the most basic common sense is to write it down. Not necessarily for reference for ZOS (noone could have predicted the current chaos), but for assessing the bidding levels at any given location, given the new system and its uncertainties.

Please dont take it personally or anything,

but have you even read my Response?
Furthermore have you ever participated in any bidding process let alone were an Officer in a Trading Guild larger than 220 Ppl?

I acutally did Screenshots, that does not mean everybody did. Yes it maybe was not enough thought put into that from ppl who didnt. But those who took Screenshots already thought they would mess it up. So those who trusted in the Bidding Process didnt.

My Point was even IF you have Screenshots, before (before you Spend anything on the Bid), during (you've finished Bidding on all Traders you desire to Bid on) and after the Bid (finished Bidding Process, the Time where every GM on EU panicked and Surely had no thought on the Guild bank), how in the World would you know how much you actually gained ONLY from the Bidding bug?

• We have no History
• Things do not Stop for Members of Tradeguilds, who arent involved in any "Official" Business, who knows if somebody donated during those 15 Min after the Bidding closed and before the Process was finished?
• I did not see ANY Mention in how to do the Math on how much Gold i gained because of the Bug. I would have needed to take a screenshot the SECOND before and the SECOND after! Noone did that.
• Especially i did not Screenshot my Bank balance only the Bids i did. Because why should i? Never in my WILDEST Dreams i would have imagined that, i got the bids i "lost" back multiple times.

Tandor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (firs Choice) Spot.
Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Either you don't give the bidding process as much thought, care and time as you should (and pretend to do), or you do but things get, as you say, blurry quickly, in which case the most basic common sense is to write it down. Not necessarily for reference for ZOS (noone could have predicted the current chaos), but for assessing the bidding levels at any given location, given the new system and its uncertainties.

I don't want to get into your personal duels here, but on this you do raise an interesting point - if people don't remember what their bids were last week and haven't written them down, how do they know the level at which to set their bids this week?

JN_Slevin

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (firs Choice) Spot.
Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Either you don't give the bidding process as much thought, care and time as you should (and pretend to do), or you do but things get, as you say, blurry quickly, in which case the most basic common sense is to write it down. Not necessarily for reference for ZOS (noone could have predicted the current chaos), but for assessing the bidding levels at any given location, given the new system and its uncertainties.

I don't want to get into your personal duels here, but on this you do raise an interesting point - if people don't remember what their bids were last week and haven't written them down, how do they know the level at which to set their bids this week?

Normally, youd have the History for that...

wenchmore420b14_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

You really believe it's always a single person who handles everything and keeps tabs on everything, like, I don't know, with a spreadsheet or something ? Why even keep tabs anyway ? When the game works as intended, your bids are either used up on the trader or paid back, so why bother ?

Whether it's a single person that does it, or several people who coordinate, bids are a well-thought decision and therefore naturally remembered. Noone "forgets" it.
And if there are severall guilds/bids to be considered, then there are calculations. Whether they're made on something as horribly modern as a spreadsheet or as horribly old-fashioned as a pen and a paper doesn't matter.
Whether people expected the patch to cause issue or not isn't relevant. They given the bids a lot of thought and therefore should remember it.
If I told you I don't remember how much the PC I bought last week cost, you'd laugh.
Well, all this "but we cannot know how much we've bid" is laughable too.

This is laughable!
You buy a computer once every what 2-3 years?
We bid on traders every week, some time in a hurry or sleepy from 12hrs of work.
And yes, I remember what I bid, when it was just one bid,

But Zos gave us this new system that no one wanted (except the one or two that kept defending it, like you).
So this week we had to bid on 2-10 spots. I spent an hour just researching which to bid on. No don't remember how much I bid, and with ZoS messing with the guild history, well enough said.
So Anita, can you list all 10 of your bids and the amounts? Because by your responses and condescending replies to other GM's, I still wonder if you are even a GM.

Not trying to be mean, but you just don't get it I don't think.
And we told you ZoS, not to implement this system!! You really should have listened.
My 2 drakes..... Huzzah!

Arrodisia

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some GMs do know how much they bid on their Prime (firs Choice) Spot.
Maybe they do remember how much they bid on the Secondary, but then it gets foggy... Especially if you do it like 2-7 Times.

Either you don't give the bidding process as much thought, care and time as you should (and pretend to do), or you do but things get, as you say, blurry quickly, in which case the most basic common sense is to write it down. Not necessarily for reference for ZOS (noone could have predicted the current chaos), but for assessing the bidding levels at any given location, given the new system and its uncertainties.

I don't want to get into your personal duels here, but on this you do raise an interesting point - if people don't remember what their bids were last week and haven't written them down, how do they know the level at which to set their bids this week?

Most will not know that anyway since the swap didn't work correctly. We don't know if the won messages are completely erroneous or not, since for every one bid won multiple wins came back and don't specify a trader. Many GMs got more win messages than bids made. My mail was spammed full with them.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cani wrote: »

how in the World would you know how much you actually gained ONLY from the Bidding bug?

Of course you need the bank history. But you have it (Ireniicus confirmed it).
Now WITH the bank history, it's not hard to know which is which. Member donations appear under the name of the donor, bid refunds appear differently, clearly defined as such. Sales taxes also appear clearly defined as such. It's not hard at all to sort out.

I understand the confusion and the hassle, but I explained in this thread (in the naive intention to help) how to calculate things easily. Especially that you don't need to know precisely what trader you won (in theory), what bids you gor refunded or how many times. Just sum it up and there you go. You know how much gold you must leave there untouched in order for ZOS to be able to delete it.

JN_Slevin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cani wrote: »

how in the World would you know how much you actually gained ONLY from the Bidding bug?

Of course you need the bank history. But you have it (Ireniicus confirmed it).
Now WITH the bank history, it's not hard to know which is which. Member donations appear under the name of the donor, bid refunds appear differently, clearly defined as such. Sales taxes also appear clearly defined as such. It's not hard at all to sort out.

I understand the confusion and the hassle, but I explained in this thread (in the naive intention to help) how to calculate things easily. Especially that you don't need to know precisely what trader you won (in theory), what bids you gor refunded or how many times. Just sum it up and there you go. You know how much gold you must leave there untouched in order for ZOS to be able to delete it.

Well your first Paragraph is just wrong.
You have the History WHILE YOUR ONLINE.
Nothing more, and as soon as you log of its gone. (checking it at the Moment) Yep, doenst work for me, still no History!

Your second Paragraph doesnt make sense.
How would you know how to calculate it, if none of the GMs who did that for YEARS dont know how?

I'm sorry but i do not Trust someone with that who i only know from some Forum Posts...
Heck, i dont even trust myself with it.

I am sure your Posts are well intended, but you show nothing but disrespect, act like a know-it-all and all that under the protection of anonymity, while you deduct only Quotes from previous Posts who you are willing to answer, therefore trying to get other People to misinterpret the original meaning of said Posts.

Please, just read the things people said who actually have experience in it...

StabbityDoom

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

[snip]

EDIT: sorry for the harsh tone, but I was little bit upset that a US guildmaster (as in: playing on a US server) tells me how to appropriately punish European guildmembers. I agree with my fellow guildmaster in most points.

[edited for non-constructive and inappropriate comment]

We are here to share our opinions. Doesn't matter what server we are from, even consolers are weighing in.

StabbityDoom

reoskit wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

Oh, you are from the U.S. , well thanks that explains something, doesn’t it?

My dear fellow player, this was an incident on the EU server, it maybe a good time for you to stop demanding death penalty in foreign lands - just my 2 cents, as usual.

... Wait, what?

Death penalty? Foreign lands? Who even said which nation I'm from? What in the...

I agree with you on one point, though. I said to not call for blood; I should have left out my personal opinion regarding the precise punishment of the ToS-violating, morals-lacking people who thought it alright to take and spend money that wasn't theirs.

My bad.

No, I dont agree with you about perma ban but that doesn't mean it's not a reasonable opinion. And people should respect it as such, given in good faith. You are no troll.

StabbityDoom

tim99 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

tim99 wrote: »

at which factor are we talking for the bid-refunds?
some got bid x4, which is very bad... but i heard some got bidd x300, specially one guy who bid 30 mil, and got refunded with 9 billions.

At some point someone will claim to have been sent to the Moon. Don't believe everything you hear...

well, if neil armstrong tells you that?

but its a trustworthy source, more than a stranger in a mostly trollforum who tells me not to believe it
but i know what you mean, ofc i havent seen any prove, but still very disturbing infos.

Buzz Aldrin would punch you for it. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/20/man-punched-buzz-aldrin-still-says-moon-landing-fake/1784847001/

anitajoneb17_ESO

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

So Anita, can you list all 10 of your bids and the amounts? Because by your responses and condescending replies to other GM's, I still wonder if you are even a GM.

I never pretended to be a GM - nor to not be one. Just assume you don't know, and it doesn't matter.
Of course it's not hard to remember ONE bid, and of course it's hard to remember TEN, which is why it is obvious that you all (or we all) write it down - or should have. I believe you/we all have, because it's just the obvious thing to do. It's 10 names and 10 amounts, not a 10000x10000 spreadsheet, right ?
So yes, pretending now to not being able to track the bids and the refunds is laughable and looks like a cover for guilds having laundered the gold. Not pointing anyone in particular here.

StabbityDoom

agegarton wrote: »

Aside from the aggro posts about the many ways to punish, torture, and defile naughty GMs who did, or did not, do something with some gold that was refunded to them, or was not refunded to them.......

It’ll soon be Thursday, and we STILL HAVE NO ANSWER.

We don’t know whether the bid system will work this weekend.
We don’t know how the gold refunds will be handled.
We don’t know how bid wins (but trader kiosk not available) gold losses will be handled.
Sales history is still switched off, ruining trade.
And now there’s talk of a hot fix patch being applied this weekend to fix Cyrodiil crashes - I’m not worried about that at all, honest.

Four days to just respond. Not even to fix.

Now, that’s a shocker.

THIS. SO MUCH THIS. GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW YOU PLAN TO FIX THIS BEFORE SUNDAY PLEASE.

Tandor

StabbityDoom wrote: »

DonTomas wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

Some folks seem to be rather foggy on which situations are in play and who deserves punishment. Let's recap(...).

Guild got extra gold; someone took/spent
- This is a bug turned exploit. If the guild's reserves go into the negative when ZOS removes the bogus gold, someone has obviously taken money that wasn't theirs. ZOS needs to review who removed gold from the bank and take appropriate action, IMO a permaban.

(...)

You guys need to calm down and stop calling for each other's blood. The situation is bad enough without us turning inward.

The only people deserving of punishment are those that took gold that wasn't theirs.

Please don’t tell me that you recap, and then tell me your personal opinion, if you don’t mind.
And if you are coming up with a classification and suggest “permaban”, which is like the death penalty for players, why don’t you differentiate between players who took the money and those who did something with it that unbalanced the game?

And after you humbly (oh no, you forgot the H in IMHO) declared death penalty, you lecture us about calming down...

[snip]

EDIT: sorry for the harsh tone, but I was little bit upset that a US guildmaster (as in: playing on a US server) tells me how to appropriately punish European guildmembers. I agree with my fellow guildmaster in most points.

[edited for non-constructive and inappropriate comment]

We are here to share our opinions. Doesn't matter what server we are from, even consolers are weighing in.

Personally, as a non-trader I'm finding the discussion generally very informative. I also find it very relevant notwithstanding my lack of involvement in trading because of the view that the whole megaserver should be rolled back, for a couple of weeks even, and that involves everyone be they traders or not.

OsManiaC

for interim containment plan,
- sunday bidding 10k spots Will available 3 hours later

for permanent solution which will take time
- give back moneh
- take back moneh
- fix eu server

ı am sure thats what we will face on sunday, beware for ultra high exploit money bidders

sorry for the one likes me that his/her money gone and not enough money to bid on sunday

reoskit

Tandor wrote: »

Personally, as a non-trader I'm finding the discussion generally very informative. I also find it very relevant notwithstanding my lack of involvement in trading because of the view that the whole megaserver should be rolled back, for a couple of weeks even, and that involves everyone be they traders or not.

Not many people are still calling for a rollback. I've seen one person who still holds that opinion. Perhaps I missed a couple, but that no longer appears to be the consensus.

The system should have come down the moment the issue was discovered and then been rolled back.

Gariele

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Personally, as a non-trader I'm finding the discussion generally very informative. I also find it very relevant notwithstanding my lack of involvement in trading because of the view that the whole megaserver should be rolled back, for a couple of weeks even, and that involves everyone be they traders or not.

Not many people are still calling for a rollback. I've seen one person who still holds that opinion. Perhaps I missed a couple, but that no longer appears to be the consensus.

The system should have come down the moment the issue was discovered and then been rolled back.

So much this.