Lets chill the sensationalism and see where this goes...

Nerhesi

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell. Think we just need to relax and monitor the changes as there is was really no way to do worse than the current pvp meta for example.

This change, which actually introduced magicka damage over time stacking as a viable strategy (where it didnt exist before), where it may actually reduce the ability for every dps class to rock massive sustainability (on all resource pools), where it finally introduces a solid mathematical base to START tuning abilities (why did this take years?!) - is a very good change.

Yes - we may not be able to play the exact same way, but that doesnt matter. I"m looking forward to the upcoming changes, including CP changes, which I hope will introduce more variety and counter meta options, rather than the utterly boring state that has been the meta since release. Who knows, we may even get to a stage where DPS can't keep themselves sustained forever, and attrition dps class/specc/gear setups exist..

Anyways. Not the end of the world, a change in meta is good. I believe ZOS you have a a lot of support but as always, we dont necessarily feel like it's a good idea to engage in forum wars so I hope that is clear. I may not like/support some specific changes, but the general direction I do like. Thanks,

SirAndy

Nerhesi wrote: »

we just need to relax

Don't tell me what to do ...

Vahrokh

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell. Think we just need to relax and monitor the changes as there is was really no way to do worse than the current pvp meta for example.

This change, which actually introduced magicka damage over time stacking as a viable strategy (where it didnt exist before), where it may actually reduce the ability for every dps class to rock massive sustainability (on all resource pools), where it finally introduces a solid mathematical base to START tuning abilities (why did this take years?!) - is a very good change.

Yes - we may not be able to play the exact same way, but that doesnt matter. I"m looking forward to the upcoming changes, including CP changes, which I hope will introduce more variety and counter meta options, rather than the utterly boring state that has been the meta since release. Who knows, we may even get to a stage where DPS can't keep themselves sustained forever, and attrition dps class/specc/gear setups exist..

Anyways. Not the end of the world, a change in meta is good. I believe ZOS you have a a lot of support but as always, we dont necessarily feel like it's a good idea to engage in forum wars so I hope that is clear. I may not like/support some specific changes, but the general direction I do like. Thanks,

This is exactly the ONLY action that has proven to never work.
"Letting chill" is a strong signal they are doing OK and they won't back down whatever heinous design decision they have taken.

I am playing MMO since before 2000.

The devs are ALL the same. Heck, I AM A DEV myself (just not a game dev).

We do what the designers / project manager asks and hate to work overtime, so if there's no negative feedback it means it's all OK and we avoid having to redo stuff times and again.

The only action that I have seen consistently working since before 2000 are:

- players who organize to crash servers.
- ultra-massive negative social media / forums / magazines / reviews.
- players riots on game forums.
- players riots on Reddit or other forums the devs actually read.

Nothing else works and staying "chill" is what works least of all.

idk

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell.

Zos tends to pass over threads like this as they usually fail to provide any worthy feedback and are just crying out the sky is falling because there is change. They are just screaming for the sake of screaming.

So we should really just do the same as those threads are probably not worth our time either.

Nerhesi

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Logical fallacies, rage, and personal attacks.

I guess I ignore the vast majority of your post above due to the obvious reasons, but your last line is interesting:

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

People always rage when they see something unfair.

You are correct here. You are raging you because you see something as unfair.
Unfortunately that is your subjective opinion - which means you are raging due to personal preference, the exact emotional response I was talking about.

Aznarb

Agree with the OP.
Just let it be, they need it on live to collect a strong real data anyway.
PTS is just a showcase for player you can't test as much as in live since it's pretty empty.

Also it's new and lot of change, ofc ppl are gonna QQ, they do that all day on every thread anyway.
Some with adapt, some not.
It's already the case, nothing new here again.

Now I just want the change on live fast and start the real testing, got lot of new build idea, just can't wait ^^

Pallio

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

Nerhesi

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

They may have - but not this time.

WuffyCerulei

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

Did you forget Morrowind's patch existed? Tbh that was worse than this one.

WuffyCerulei

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

There's been bad changes, but most of the people who complain are refusing to adjust their builds to the new. It's called change, everyone. I do hate the dot builds the "bigwigs" have made. Screw that, I'm playing the classes the way I want.

Austinseph1

I mean, If by variety you mean removing most class skils from the builds and using soul trap on every single dps build yeah thats variety. Each class/race used to make unique builds possible but now it just feels like either a stam or mag character, Unless you are stamcro which is the next level dps by far. They are standardizing to make balance easier. The game will be easier to balance when we are standardized to just a stam or mag character.

Vapirko

Only PvP is going to take a real hit. Stam heals will be worse than on live and meanwhile people are pulling 100k dot tooltips on very normal magicka builds. Funny thing is that those magicka users who all flipped over the vigor tooltips seem to have no issue with their crazy dot numbers.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

As someone who is about to get their 6 year badge and played since beta, I have seen many of those "Im quiting/ changes suck" threads.
I am a "casual" player who only glances at the numbers and percentages with the combat "balancing", and I have always been a wait and see & does it really affect my playing that much, so agree with OP there.

BUT! Coming with these changes are the multi bidding and guild history "updates" that can't be used in PTS to evaluate their repercussions on live and is going to really hurt players on a guild level.
These changes I can't "chill out" about.

Heals, Ultimate Cast Times, etc... Yes these do not look good, but I will wait and see, but for Akatoshes Sake!!
ZoS!!! Please reconsider the Guild changes!!!!
Huzzah!!!!

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Honestly the vote of the dollar is all that matters. At the start of PTS I was very hopeful, but now if this goes live as is with a few little changes here and there the (ZoS standard) I’m pulling my sub till fall of 2021.
Not quitting the game but if this is the best they can do then they can do it without my sub. This is the only way they will care even if the player base is the same more or less, a large drop in subs will force their hands.

Morgul667

idk wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell.

Zos tends to pass over threads like this as they usually fail to provide any worthy feedback and are just crying out the sky is falling because there is change. They are just screaming for the sake of screaming.

So we should really just do the same as those threads are probably not worth our time either.

In their defense constructive comments and bug reports are usually ignored as well

Even during PTS phase...

Narvuntien

Yeah, my current opinion is this is just the first step in a larger plan because, yeah I can see some of the issues people are pointing out.

Standardisation does have a homogenising effect but when you are trying to balance a huge amount of skills doing it can really allow you to get a better grasp on where the balance of the game really is.

Going to have to wait 3 months to see what they do next.

Aznarb

Morgul667 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell.

Zos tends to pass over threads like this as they usually fail to provide any worthy feedback and are just crying out the sky is falling because there is change. They are just screaming for the sake of screaming.

So we should really just do the same as those threads are probably not worth our time either.

In their defense constructive comments and bug reports are usually ignored as well

Even during PTS phase...

Most constructive comment are flooded by QQ post, so..
ZoS is not perfect for sure, but player on forum are worst as soon as a change who is not a buff hit there class.
Most of post I've read these day are full of bias and salt.

Vahrokh

Nerhesi wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

They may have - but not this time.

Clearly not a magsorc.

OtarTheMad

Agreed, looking forward to these changes. Gonna have to change a few builds but meh, whatever.

peacenote

Nerhesi wrote: »

....rather than the utterly boring state that has been the meta since release...

I haven't found the game or the builds or the meta to be utterly boring since release at all. I'm wondering why anyone who did would stick around all this time?

Robo_Hobo

I'm looking forward to being able to try out DW/2h for PvE Stamina DPS, it'll be interesting to see how it works out in live with 2h Maelstrom as backbar.

Juhasow

Nerhesi wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

They may have - but not this time.

Unfortunately that is your subjective opinion.

Kolzki

idk wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell.

Zos tends to pass over threads like this as they usually fail to provide any worthy feedback and are just crying out the sky is falling because there is change. They are just screaming for the sake of screaming.

So we should really just do the same as those threads are probably not worth our time either.

So true. I assume that they pay most attention to short descriptions of specific issues that players have tested and report back in the official PTS Update 23 feedback threads. Those threads have dropped 4 or 5 pages down into the noise.

Jaimeh

SirAndy wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

we just need to relax

Don't tell me what to do ...

It's my party and I'll cry if I want to~~~

To answer the OP seriously though: there's always issues reported during the PTS cycles: sets over-performing, class imbalances, fight-breaking bugs, which don't get addressed, and then in many cases we have to endure a whole patch with these problems, and just hope the next update will fix things. I think it's come to a point where players got tired of this viscious cycle: they are taking time out of their gaming to test stuff (for free!) for the developers, and see their conclusions being brushed over. It's disappointing to say the least.

Nerhesi

Jaimeh wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

we just need to relax

Don't tell me what to do ...

It's my party and I'll cry if I want to~~~

To answer the OP seriously though: there's always issues reported during the PTS cycles: sets over-performing, class imbalances, fight-breaking bugs, which don't get addressed, and then in many cases we have to endure a whole patch with these problems, and just hope the next update will fix things. I think it's come to a point where players got tired of this viscious cycle: they are taking time out of their gaming to test stuff (for free!) for the developers, and see their conclusions being brushed over. It's disappointing to say the least.

And I'm right there with you guys on that. Things that are ridiculously over performing (like the early dot stacking issues with certain items or soul-magic dot with oblivion's foe) - That I would agree we should be really vocal about.

What I think many of us are being sensational about it, is the purported change in meta and so-called homogenization. This game has some of the most blatantly homogeneous PvP despite it reigning supreme when it comes to available gear sets, skills and so on. The change is actually decreasing that homogeneity by increasing end-game pvp and pve options, without those options being absolute trash that you couldn't afford to even think about it (like if you played Dot magicka dot specc prior to this patch with anything except maybe 1 or 2 classes).

But I'm 100% with you on the blatant things that need to be addressed in a timely manner.

Nerhesi

Juhasow wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

Pallio wrote: »

Really, cause never in the history of patches has ZoS ever made horrible changes...

They may have - but not this time.

Unfortunately that is your subjective opinion.

Absolutely - hence why I'm not being sensational and signaling the end of times and that the sky will fall on the heads of the small Gaulish village.

MashmalloMan

Nerhesi wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

we just need to relax

Don't tell me what to do ...

It's my party and I'll cry if I want to~~~

To answer the OP seriously though: there's always issues reported during the PTS cycles: sets over-performing, class imbalances, fight-breaking bugs, which don't get addressed, and then in many cases we have to endure a whole patch with these problems, and just hope the next update will fix things. I think it's come to a point where players got tired of this viscious cycle: they are taking time out of their gaming to test stuff (for free!) for the developers, and see their conclusions being brushed over. It's disappointing to say the least.

And I'm right there with you guys on that. Things that are ridiculously over performing (like the early dot stacking issues with certain items or soul-magic dot with oblivion's foe) - That I would agree we should be really vocal about.

What I think many of us are being sensational about it, is the purported change in meta and so-called homogenization. This game has some of the most blatantly homogeneous PvP despite it reigning supreme when it comes to available gear sets, skills and so on. The change is actually decreasing that homogeneity by increasing end-game pvp and pve options, without those options being absolute trash that you couldn't afford to even think about it (like if you played Dot magicka dot specc prior to this patch with anything except maybe 1 or 2 classes).

But I'm 100% with you on the blatant things that need to be addressed in a timely manner.

Yep, let's also not forget that they made it abundantly clear from u21 or so that they were finally finding a clear combat vision for the future of the game. We are probably half way through those changes.

Is it the right way to do things? Maybe not, I'm sure many players would like to get all the changes at once so they don't need to shift every Update. The updates prove as good testing grounds as they continue towards their end goal. I wish they would fully explain what that goal was, but I suspect it has to do with selling their next chapter which they are not at liberty to divulge information about.

That being said, I've seen a comment from Maesel explaining he was ready to quit the class rep program during the first Scalebreaker PTS notes, but ZOS reassured him behind closed doors as to why the changes in this update are for the better. It must be very frustrating as a class rep to spend over a year in the program with a focus on class identity and major pain points given, with not much addressed and unpaid mind you. (Review the first 3 class notes and you will see what I mean, especially for Stam Sorc/Stam DK).

So yeah I'm a bit optimistic despite some of the "bad" changes this update. I want to see the finish line and I can easily unsub and play something else until that happens. I patiently await the next update for the Class passive audit and look forward to what they do with CP because they both have such a huge part on the combat.

I will stand by my point that CP introduces unnecessary normality among all builds with diminishing returns and so much CP that all builds have tiny differences, if the CP power was placed back in classes, 20% stats given to all builds and more Universal Skills were introduced that complimented each class (Spell Crafting) as well as working on in class synergy of passives/skills we wouldn't see anyone complain. The issue is there are 3 new mag dots that practically replace class skills. If there were more options like 10 to choose from and only 2 worked really well with your class and the class passives only worked well with class abilities (akin to Templar Burning Light Passive) you could fix this issue entirely. There just isn't enough abilities or passive synergy's to direct people in to specific way's of playing that compliment their class identity.

Sandman929

I think people react strongly to big changes because they know if something is as bad as they think it's going to be, they will be stuck with it for several months. The pace of fixes and adjustments makes the changes seem like they're ruining the game for many.
In console land we've gotten to enjoy Pummeling Goliath groups for the entirety of Elsweyr because it takes even longer to get fixes for us.

Nerhesi

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I will stand by my point that CP introduces unnecessary normality among all builds with diminishing returns and so much CP that all builds have tiny differences, if the CP power was placed back in classes, 20% stats given to all builds and more Universal Skills were introduced that complimented each class (Spell Crafting) as well as working on in class synergy of passives/skills we wouldn't see anyone complain.

100% with you here and on this.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The issue is there are 3 new mag dots that practically replace class skills. If there were more options like 10 to choose from and only 2 worked really well with your class and the class passives only worked well with class abilities (akin to Templar Burning Light Passive) you could fix this issue entirely. There just isn't enough abilities or passive synergy's to direct people in to specific way's of playing that compliment their class identity.

And I completely understand this concern - but I think it is systemic. Think of all the builds that used Reach, or Dawnbreaker, or Onslaught, and so on.

I think massive amount of active/independent (rather that modify/complementing class skills) is an inherent weakness of this game, that they themselves are aware of now and they are trying to address. This is evident in their description of how with the necro for example, they wanted more class-identity.

So yes, these introduce powerful dots into the game in generic skill lines, but maybe there are ways (upcoming) to add class flavour and identity to that - rather than just necro's do 10% more or wardens have the best dot sort of approach.

katorga

Never fear. In four months they'll completely change direction again, nerf resto heals and single target dots to the ground.

Nemesis7884

Nerhesi wrote: »

Quite a few threats of ending subs and pvp/pve going to hell. Think we just need to relax and monitor the changes as there is was really no way to do worse than the current pvp meta for example.

This change, which actually introduced magicka damage over time stacking as a viable strategy (where it didnt exist before), where it may actually reduce the ability for every dps class to rock massive sustainability (on all resource pools), where it finally introduces a solid mathematical base to START tuning abilities (why did this take years?!) - is a very good change.

Yes - we may not be able to play the exact same way, but that doesnt matter. I"m looking forward to the upcoming changes, including CP changes, which I hope will introduce more variety and counter meta options, rather than the utterly boring state that has been the meta since release. Who knows, we may even get to a stage where DPS can't keep themselves sustained forever, and attrition dps class/specc/gear setups exist..

Anyways. Not the end of the world, a change in meta is good. I believe ZOS you have a a lot of support but as always, we dont necessarily feel like it's a good idea to engage in forum wars so I hope that is clear. I may not like/support some specific changes, but the general direction I do like. Thanks,

no