[Group Finder new role] "Carry"

Dusk_Coven

Create an achievement for each dungeon, for completing it SOLO.
If you have the achievement, you can enter the Group Finder queue for that dungeon with a special role, "Carry" -- because theoretically you can complete it on your own.
This role would have the highest priority, and grab the first three people waiting the longest time.

redspecter23

Just because you can do it on your own, it doesn't mean it was easy or you could repeat it in any reasonable amount of time. Your other 3 group members might not be too happy about the 3.5 hour run ahead of them just because you spent 4 hours soloing something at one point.

I think people really have to learn to use the dungeon finder for what it is capable of. Finding 3 other bodies and slapping them and you in an instance together. Finding convoluted ways of making this or that work with dungeon finder is a fancy way of saying "I want 100k xp. Make it easier/faster for me". I'm of the mind that they just scrap the xp boost from the random dungeon just so people don't continue to go out of their way to ask for adjustments to get that xp easier with the eventual end result of nerfing the xp because it becomes too easy to get.

Dusk_Coven

redspecter23 wrote: »

Just because you can do it on your own, it doesn't mean it was easy or you could repeat it in any reasonable amount of time. Your other 3 group members might not be too happy about the 3.5 hour run ahead of them just because you spent 4 hours soloing something at one point.

???

I'm trusting people aren't so stupid that if they could barely do it they wouldn't try to queue themselves in this role.
And if the other 3 people are so stupid as to not help...
But then people also queue as fake tanks and fake heals. People also like to stand in red and wait to be healed through.

No system can really save people from stupidity. No matter what, stupid people will be in every system. That's a given, and irrelevant to bring up.

If you believe MOST people will be stupid -- then a different problem and not specifically relevant to this topic either.

zvavi

Or just queue as tank and do a tank's job (taunt boss and keep him in place while surviving)
Edit: it is not like you will ever do another role in your "carry" idea either

vesselwiththepestle

zvavi wrote: »

Or just queue as tank and do a tank's job (taunt boss and keep him in place while surviving)

Horrible to do if you've got fake dps and healers without synergies.

What I like most are fake healers who don't dps either.

This game needs encouragement for tanking, though, because I think long waiting times are one reason decent dps players don't bother with random queue .

zvavi

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Or just queue as tank and do a tank's job (taunt boss and keep him in place while surviving)

Horrible to do if you've got fake dps and healers without synergies.

What I like most are fake healers who don't dps either.

This game needs encouragement for tanking, though, because I think long waiting times are one reason decent dps players don't bother with random queue .

I mean, know your limits... I managed to hold a boss in vMoS on a healer when the tank fell for like half a fight (took heavy to face while wearing less selfish setup) i can probably tank all vNon dlc on that said healer, with her 18k health maybe even wgt and icp ... Most meta healer sets though, olo+jor. Even though you are talking to a person that organized a 3 hours run of 4 DD vDoM run, so many deaths, but we did it. Was fun, i dont regret doing that, but next time i am properly tanking.

ZeroXFF

Just allow people to opt-in for non-standard group compositions (add checkboxes for standard, tank+3dd, heal+3dd, 4dd under the role selection). This will solve most problems with the dungeon finder (long queues, fake tanks/healers etc).

pdblake

Can we have a "Carry Me" option too? You know, for days when you really can't be bothered but are still addicted.

Edited to add: Only joking

VaranisArano

I can't tell if this is serious...

Or a jab at the players who are all "IDGAF about the group because I can solo this dungeon!"

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

Ogou

That's just fake-tanking with extra steps.

peacenote

I think achievements for soloing the dungeons are a bad idea because it will kick off a whole reaction by many who will complain about balance issues / unfairness if certain builds aren't capable of soloing. And we'll start seeing all kinds of suggestions for changes to support achieving something that wasn't designed specifically to be achievable in the first place.

I enjoy trying to solo or duo dungeons and I suspect the challenge and fun would slowly erode as things were made easier for people to accomplish this. ("My class/build/playstyle can't solo this mechanic because I need a better purge/shield/stun/whatever.")

Also I have a feeling this wouldn't always be an accurate achievement. The other day I joined an nSS already in progress on a newer alt for the last boss and received the achievement for completing nSS and all three bosses, who were named in the achievement. I was actually disappointed since I hadn't done a full run yet. No quest or coffer was granted, either, so it was doubly sad.

Partomax

I always queue to normal dungeons as tank and I feel horrible until I notice I'm dealing 80% group DPS and imagine the pain these people would have if they had a real tank instead of decent group DPS. It's a normal dungeon and I'm not going to have a 40 minute queue for something that takes me 7 minutes to complete.

VaranisArano

Partomax wrote: »

I always queue to normal dungeons as tank and I feel horrible until I notice I'm dealing 80% group DPS and imagine the pain these people would have if they had a real tank instead of decent group DPS. It's a normal dungeon and I'm not going to have a 40 minute queue for something that takes me 7 minutes to complete.

Hey, as long as you actually equip a taunt and hold boss aggro, you are a real tank.

If you don't have a taunt and you arent holding boss aggro, have you considered that maybe one of the reasons your DPS is comparatively so high is because you dumped your job on one of your teammates?

NordSwordnBoard

Ogou wrote: »

That's just fake-tanking with extra steps.

Instead of queing as tank role with a DD slotting taunt, you que as VIP DD because you soloed the dungeon on normal. Instead of going to the front of the line because that role is most needed, you go to the front because you're awesome.

They need to adjust the rewards. People are obsessed with the quick 100k and the dungeon is just the place they earn it. There needs to be more motivation than just the monster helms to get vet players out of the normal que. Consider how much time you waste waiting for a "quick" normal run, when you could've done 2 vanilla dungeons on vet in the time you waited for the "quick and easy" method.

If normals gave significantly less xp and transmute than vet would capable players continue using the normal que?

What if they changed rewards so that the people grinding normals at light speed would get better rewards for their time spent doing vet instead?

Why not leave normal dungeons for the players whose skill level they were actually made for?

Xvorg

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can't tell if this is serious...

Or a jab at the players who are all "IDGAF about the group because I can solo this dungeon!"

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

Basically it's just learning its mechanics, though Blackheart Haven is kind of tricky (that boss turning you a skelly...)

OrphanHelgen

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Create an achievement for each dungeon, for completing it SOLO.
If you have the achievement, you can enter the Group Finder queue for that dungeon with a special role, "Carry" -- because theoretically you can complete it on your own.
This role would have the highest priority, and grab the first three people waiting the longest time.

I would never take someone with a carry title to my group, simply because their dps is ***. Is has nothing to do with carry or not, it's just being tanky and have enough self heal to complete it.

Ogou

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

That's just fake-tanking with extra steps.

Instead of queing as tank role with a DD slotting taunt, you que as VIP DD because you soloed the dungeon on normal. Instead of going to the front of the line because that role is most needed, you go to the front because you're awesome.

They need to adjust the rewards. People are obsessed with the quick 100k and the dungeon is just the place they earn it. There needs to be more motivation than just the monster helms to get vet players out of the normal que. Consider how much time you waste waiting for a "quick" normal run, when you could've done 2 vanilla dungeons on vet in the time you waited for the "quick and easy" method.

If normals gave significantly less xp and transmute than vet would capable players continue using the normal que?

What if they changed rewards so that the people grinding normals at light speed would get better rewards for their time spent doing vet instead?

Why not leave normal dungeons for the players whose skill level they were actually made for?

The issue is you'd still be missing a tank. Believe it or not, there are new level 10-30 players queueing in for these normal dungeons and the majority of them do need someone to taunt the boss and hold it in place.

As for the higher rewards for vet. That won't fix the issue of the DPS queue. It will just make the vet queue longer.

VaranisArano

Xvorg wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can't tell if this is serious...

Or a jab at the players who are all "IDGAF about the group because I can solo this dungeon!"

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

Basically it's just learning its mechanics, though Blackheart Haven is kind of tricky (that boss turning you a skelly...)

Kinda sorta. In my experience, soloing a dungeon plays very differently from playing in a group.

As a solo player, you eat ALL the mechanics from the boss and when there's only one player, it turns out that the bosses have a LOT of stuns and CCs. You can solo a dungeon with shockingly low DPS as long as you can sustain amd break free. I finished some bosses on normal with 7k DPS because I spent so much time being CC'd and stunned.

AcadianPaladin

Agree with @VaranisArano (always a wise choice I've found, lol). My chars are built for solo and their build priorities are different than groupsters. A soloist has to do it all and I build in the following priority order: Survivability, Sustain, Damage. Depending on the char, they put out 15-20k but can do it all day long while standing toe-to-toe with a boss.

Other players can be a blessing or a curse, just as easily causing my clear of the dungeon to be uglier and slower than when solo - depends on the other players. I don't want to imply more ability than I possess - the list of dungeons I can solo is only about half a dozen normal alliance ones.

Oh, and on topic, I'm not at all in favor of a 'carry' role. One change I wouldn't care if implemented would be to queue up for a traditional group or a group of 'any 4'. Perhaps that could speed up queue times for DDs who don't mind running with 4 DDs (which is what you'd get since healers/tanks would all queue for traditional groups).

Dusk_Coven

VaranisArano wrote: »

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

If you mean things like running ahead and letting everyone else die to mobs? Jerks are in every system. Even the one we have right now. So it's not a problem specific to any proposal.

Right now, for a lot of dungeons, a single competent dps can clear it. The others don't matter. This is why people queue fake tank and fake heals -- they are using RNG in the group finder to get that team where they don't matter and hope to get carried. This encourages players with low-level toons to queue as fake tank or fake heals -- they have no intention of that role and they are selfishly cutting in line when others have been waiting a long time.

This proposal just accelerates the queue a bit, acknowledging the reality that for easy dungeons, you simply don't need that many people. A situation that exists right now and that the group finder can put together right now.
I've seen people in guild chat asking for 3 warm bodies to follow them and they will carry. Some days it's surprisingly hard to even put that together.

VaranisArano

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

If you mean things like running ahead and letting everyone else die to mobs? Jerks are in every system. Even the one we have right now. So it's not a problem specific to any proposal.

Right now, for a lot of dungeons, a single competent dps can clear it. The others don't matter. This is why people queue fake tank and fake heals -- they are using RNG in the group finder to get that team where they don't matter and hope to get carried. This encourages players with low-level toons to queue as fake tank or fake heals -- they have no intention of that role and they are selfishly cutting in line when others have been waiting a long time.

This proposal just accelerates the queue a bit, acknowledging the reality that for easy dungeons, you simply don't need that many people. A situation that exists right now and that the group finder can put together right now.
I've seen people in guild chat asking for 3 warm bodies to follow them and they will carry. Some days it's surprisingly hard to even put that together.

I've met a number of people who go "just relax, I'll carry you all!" as soon as we pop into a normal dungeon.

It inevitably turns out that:
Either they need a healer to stay alive,
Or my PUG DD teammate needs a healer to stay alive because our "I'll carry you!" Fake tank won't hold boss aggro,
Or I end up facetanking with boss aggro as a DD or healer.

The moment the "I'll carry you!" guy makes it harder on their group members...it ain't a "carry" in my book. Especially not when the boss aggros on someone who won't face tank it, and the boss gets drug out of our AOEs.

The best carries are the people who actually queue for their proper role and play it extremely well.

Veinblood1965

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Or just queue as tank and do a tank's job (taunt boss and keep him in place while surviving)

Horrible to do if you've got fake dps and healers without synergies.

What I like most are fake healers who don't dps either.

This game needs encouragement for tanking, though, because I think long waiting times are one reason decent dps players don't bother with random queue .

That's actually true. My main was a mag/pet sorc I did really great DPS but queue times were long. I started a tank as my second toon and actually enjoyed that more than DPSing. However prior to that if there had been some perk or encouragement to try rolling a tank I would have rolled one a lot sooner as prior to me actually trying it I thought it would be just another meat shield like most games. Of course then you get into the hey why do they get a perk argument....

MisterBigglesworth

Just let people take their chances by checking a "Don't require a tank or healer" checkbox when queuing
Over time this would naturally filter out anyone who can't handle it, while giving everyone else a quick way to finish their dailies.

Also, make Inner Fire the first Undaunted skill to unlock.

Dusk_Coven

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Just let people take their chances by checking a "Don't require a tank or healer" checkbox when queuing
Over time this would naturally filter out anyone who can't handle it, while giving everyone else a quick way to finish their dailies.

Without some kind of verification -- like a character-specific achievement -- it's just another way to fake queue. Like the current fake-tank and fake-heals checkmarks. There wouldn't really be a change to the system.

malistorr

Not in favor of the idea in the OP. But I like a way for the group to say they're ok without a tank or healer. A lot of players can solo 4-man content, or come close. So a group with a healer and 3 DPS for example, can crush most content if the players are decent. Any system where you can cut down wait times would be awesome. 1-hour DPS waits for dungeons is really pathetic.

MisterBigglesworth

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Just let people take their chances by checking a "Don't require a tank or healer" checkbox when queuing
Over time this would naturally filter out anyone who can't handle it, while giving everyone else a quick way to finish their dailies.

Without some kind of verification -- like a character-specific achievement -- it's just another way to fake queue. Like the current fake-tank and fake-heals checkmarks. There wouldn't really be a change to the system.

I forgot to clarify: you would only get into groups with other people who also checked the box. So you wouldn't be pulling one over on anyone, everyone would be on the same page about roughly what to expect.

Gilvoth

is stunning that anyone would ask to place such an embarrassing and degrading role to the list.
this is insulting to even ask people to be placed in such a role.

it is true there are some whom might want to be placed in that position simply because they want to pay Gold for that achievement of finish or weapon reward for that dungeon, but the rest of the people that would never want that would be horrible to be listed as such, especially if they had no idea what that position even meant.

Xvorg

VaranisArano wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can't tell if this is serious...

Or a jab at the players who are all "IDGAF about the group because I can solo this dungeon!"

I mean, I've soloed a number of normal dungeons for the fun of it, but that doesnt entitle me to be a jerk to my group in Normal Fungal Grotto 1.

Basically it's just learning its mechanics, though Blackheart Haven is kind of tricky (that boss turning you a skelly...)

Kinda sorta. In my experience, soloing a dungeon plays very differently from playing in a group.

As a solo player, you eat ALL the mechanics from the boss and when there's only one player, it turns out that the bosses have a LOT of stuns and CCs. You can solo a dungeon with shockingly low DPS as long as you can sustain amd break free. I finished some bosses on normal with 7k DPS because I spent so much time being CC'd and stunned.

Yup, true. Soloing dungeons requires a proactive defense in which you have to use diferent mechanics bor both, dealing dmg and avoiding it.

In fact, my first clear was with a NB that used old leeching strikes (the one that reduced your wpn and spell dmg, but allowed you to recover tristat) whose spell dmg wasn't over 1200, kind of putting some ground AoE Dots (Old refreshing path, blockade, rune) and spaming impale when boss was under 25% health

Could that set up be useful on a regular clear? I doubt it.

VaranisArano

Gilvoth wrote: »

is stunning that anyone would ask to place such an embarrassing and degrading role to the list.
this is insulting to even ask people to be placed in such a role.

it is true there are some whom might want to be placed in that position simply because they want to pay Gold for that achievement of finish or weapon reward for that dungeon, but the rest of the people that would never want that would be horrible to be listed as such, especially if they had no idea what that position even meant.

That's, uh, not what the OP is talking about.

The OP doesnt mean "I'm useless, carry me to victory, please!"

The OP means "Carry" as in "I can solo the dungeon, so I can carry a group through for a quick run. Let's get 'er done!"

Luckylancer

1. Be able to clear dungeon solo
2. Que as tank
3. Slot 1 taunt
4.?????
5. Profit

ATomiX69

Luckylancer wrote: »

1. Be able to clear dungeon solo
2. Que as tank
3. Slot 1 taunt
4.?????
5. Profit

6. have people in your group that go complain on the forums that you arent a real tank because you only had 18k hp

IDK why such people would bother queueing random normals with randoms when just one rotation of spellscar, which takes 5 minutes max, nets you twice as much XP, are people seriously doing it for the 1 transmutation stone you get?