[Make the healers great again] How to resolve the DPS vs HEALER issue

troomar
troomar
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There's been a long time problem with DPS effectively replacing healers in both dungeons and trials (to some degree). Now with the upcoming changes to healing abilities in the nearest update it seems this issue is even more urgent. People even start thinking about replacing healers in trials with Circle of Protection and Vigor spam from damage dealers effectively getting more DPS in the process, while tanks would be able to provide sustain for all DPS (casting 1 orb).

Anyway, this suggestion is aiming to resolve this problem. While it's probably not an ultimate solution, it might be a way to enrich the playstyle and building possibilities for both healers and DPS, or even hybrids.

Here we go:
1) Cut all healing abilities in the game (including rStaff abilities) in half
2) Change Restoration Master passive skill (rStaff skill line) to: "Increase healing done by 100% for 3 second after you use a Restoration Staff ability"

Notes:
1) Cutting all heals in half will still provide enough healing for solo play, and it will also be enough to be a support heal from DPS. But it will disable DPS to be a replacement for a real healer
2) Attaching passive with increase healing done to rStaff will restrict real healers to use rStaff, but making it a short-time buff will enable to use healing abilities on back bar too. It will also enable hybrids (DPS/heal) while restricting them in the same time.
3) Numbers in this suggestion are examples. It would require proper testing to set them correctly. So don't bash me that 100% is too much or 3 seconds is too short. It's just an example to get the idea. It also applies to PvP, where the balancing would might require a change in Battle Spirit.
  • satanio
    satanio
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    You've said it yourself on a discord: Eso has a major issue, and that is that main stackable damage stat also affects the strength of the heals.

    Healing abilities could be changed so that they are no longer affected by WD/SD but only by magicka/stamina and a new brand stat 'healing power' that would replace "Adds 2% Healing Done" item bonus and spell damage set bonus on healer sets.

    I don't like one thing about your proposed passive. It would be tied to a weapon. What if a healer doesn't want to carry resto staff? ESO, afterall, is supposed to be played as the player wants.


    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Dragonhold)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • SoLooney
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    So your solution to make healers more relevant is to cut healing in half? Lmao, I'm confused on that one, makes no sense at all

    Honestly, that's up to groups to decide whether they want a 3rd dps or a healer.

    Another solution? Dont be a one trick pony. Good tanks are hard to come by but healers are dime a dozen.

    Go make a dps or a tank
    Edited by SoLooney on July 28, 2019 12:39PM
  • Freakin_Hytte
    Freakin_Hytte
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    The major problem is the constant power creeping, a couple of years ago 30-40k was top, now the top is at +80k, my stamwarden hits 60k on the trial dummy and that is with a rotation that I'm pretty bad at. Since heals gets stronger with more power it also gets higher for dds, making a dds survivability good enough for most vet content except for the harder vet trials. So for most part of the game healers are completely unnecessary and if the changes to healers next patch goes live, they'll be even more worthless.
    I can't wait until they change the entire CP system and hopefully nerfs it's effect big time and adds something else to it.

    I like the system, but it was a inevitable we would get here sooner or later.
    Edited by Freakin_Hytte on July 28, 2019 12:44PM
  • troomar
    troomar
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    satanio wrote: »
    You've said it yourself on a discord: Eso has a major issue, and that is that main stackable damage stat also affects the strength of the heals.

    Healing abilities could be changed so that they are no longer affected by WD/SD but only by magicka/stamina and a new brand stat 'healing power' that would replace "Adds 2% Healing Done" item bonus and spell damage set bonus on healer sets.

    Introducing new stats and different scaling for healing and non-healing abilities would be much harder. What about abilities with both effects? I don't see it as a good idea in this game.
    satanio wrote: »
    I don't like one thing about your proposed passive. It would be tied to a weapon. What if a healer doesn't want to carry resto staff? ESO, afterall, is supposed to be played as the player wants.

    If you don't wear rStaff, you can use only few healing abilities even now. It's the point to tied it to rStaff. It would cripple some builds (Breath of Life spamming heavy 1h&shield Pvp builds), but every change cripples something. And it doesn't mean you can't add this effect to something else too in the future.
  • satanio
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    troomar wrote: »
    satanio wrote: »
    You've said it yourself on a discord: Eso has a major issue, and that is that main stackable damage stat also affects the strength of the heals.

    Healing abilities could be changed so that they are no longer affected by WD/SD but only by magicka/stamina and a new brand stat 'healing power' that would replace "Adds 2% Healing Done" item bonus and spell damage set bonus on healer sets.

    Introducing new stats and different scaling for healing and non-healing abilities would be much harder. What about abilities with both effects? I don't see it as a good idea in this game.
    Well, it would still take in an account the stat -> magicka for magicka cost heals, stamina for stamina cost heals and on top of that, healing power. So no problem on damaging abilities that heal aswell.
    I see absolutely no problem with changing the formulae for any given healing ability. It's basically substituing WD/SD for another stat, that is not a rocket science. What would be a nightmare for devs to do would be to decide which sets get the new "healing power".

    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Dragonhold)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • troomar
    troomar
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    We already had that with pets scaling only from Max stats. And it was changed for good.

    If you changed the healing formula to be different from damage formula then you're making it hard for hybrids or PvP. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but it would require complete overhaul of many things.
  • Rungar
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    take away weaving and you need healers again. its pretty simple.

  • Camb0Sl1ce
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    @Rungar what does weaving have to do with it? Healers and tanks weave too.
  • satanio
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    Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »
    @Rungar what does weaving have to do with it? Healers and tanks weave too.

    I guess his idea is that - no weaving => less dmg => people cannot outdps mechanics (like vSCP HM) => healer is needed.

    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Dragonhold)
    DW&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • Camb0Sl1ce
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    @satanio in vscphm and a lot of new dungeons in general if/when you die its gonna be a 1 shot anyway like the cone from the statues if you or someone else has accidentally taken your ice or poison or whatever. You can't heal through that, and most other sources of damage just tickle so their comment about weaving seems to just be a jab at people who are able to effectively weave.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    troomar wrote: »
    We already had that with pets scaling only from Max stats. And it was changed for good.

    If you changed the healing formula to be different from damage formula then you're making it hard for hybrids or PvP. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but it would require complete overhaul of many things.

    Sorc pets still only scale with max magic.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    Don't 'fix' skills; fix group dungeons.

    Dump one shot mechanics
    Add more damage over time abilities for players to deal with - that require manageable but dedicated healing support.
    Add more curses that require purging - again, boosting the need for a healer with a purge slotted.

    DD's could slot all that stuff but the intent would be that doing so sacrifices too much dps and more groups conclude that the answer is a dedicated healer.
    PC NA (PvE)
  • Saril_Durzam
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    satanio wrote: »
    Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »
    @Rungar what does weaving have to do with it? Healers and tanks weave too.

    I guess his idea is that - no weaving => less dmg => people cannot outdps mechanics (like vSCP HM) => healer is needed.

    You can get autoattacks like in wow, let the game do it for you (so the lag wont be an issue for weaving) and that´s all. I heard actually weaving creation was unintended.

    It wouldn´t be bad, i guess. And some less DPS would be good, so heavy amounts of DPS wont overcross mechanics.
  • Sacredx
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    Even if your idea was implemented it would not change anything as the DPS can backbar the rStaff and get that +100% vigor spam and not need the healers!

    So no, it doesn't resolve anything.
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  • HaemaMagus
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    Don't 'fix' skills; fix group dungeons.

    Dump one shot mechanics
    Add more damage over time abilities for players to deal with - that require manageable but dedicated healing support.
    Add more curses that require purging - again, boosting the need for a healer with a purge slotted.

    DD's could slot all that stuff but the intent would be that doing so sacrifices too much dps and more groups conclude that the answer is a dedicated healer.

    This and possibly give healing its own stat.

    Major reason why healers aren't needed is because trials/dungeon mechanics don't require a healer.

    While making healing its own stat seems to be a touchy subject honestly it makes sense at this point. Having it be tied to weapon/spell dmg and max stat (depending on the skill you're talking about) still allows for damage dealers to over take the healing role. Having it separated from both or one of those and given say %healing stat or something still allows for decent self healing so you can get out of execute range, but still allows room for the dedicated healer to do their job.
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  • Saril_Durzam
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    Sacredx wrote: »
    Even if your idea was implemented it would not change anything as the DPS can backbar the rStaff and get that +100% vigor spam and not need the healers!

    So no, it doesn't resolve anything.

    DDs doing that will lose a good chunk of DPS. Not really an option except that you would be having 6 DDs and 4 DDs with Resto hybrids.

    Issue is just not healing but utility. DDs have easy access to many minor/major buffs and debuffs. Too many. DDs skills should focus on dealing damage and minor/Self utility, healer skills should bring all the group buffs and debuffs so they would be wanted.


    Other MMOs make classes more specialized, in ESO as a DD you can bring alot of things to the party, maybe too many making support classes not desired.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    HaemaMagus wrote: »
    Don't 'fix' skills; fix group dungeons.

    Dump one shot mechanics
    Add more damage over time abilities for players to deal with - that require manageable but dedicated healing support.
    Add more curses that require purging - again, boosting the need for a healer with a purge slotted.

    DD's could slot all that stuff but the intent would be that doing so sacrifices too much dps and more groups conclude that the answer is a dedicated healer.

    This and possibly give healing its own stat.

    Major reason why healers aren't needed is because trials/dungeon mechanics don't require a healer.

    While making healing its own stat seems to be a touchy subject honestly it makes sense at this point. Having it be tied to weapon/spell dmg and max stat (depending on the skill you're talking about) still allows for damage dealers to over take the healing role. Having it separated from both or one of those and given say %healing stat or something still allows for decent self healing so you can get out of execute range, but still allows room for the dedicated healer to do their job.

    While healers needing a separate healing stat might make dds want dedicated healers, it would make this dedicated healer change over to a dps in a heartbeat. One reason I play a healer is the beautiful elegance that my heals are boosted by lotsa magicka and spell damage - and that also gives me enough damage to enjoy solo play as well as survive if the last one standing in a group dungeon. The reason I don't favor tanks for support role is that the 'fuel' that makes a good tank results in damage that is so low that tanks are totally dependent on others for damage and soloing is not fun (not interested in maintaining different sets for group/solo). So while I understand the logic of your view I expect the unintended consequences would be a shortage of healers.
    PC NA (PvE)
  • TheUndeadAmulet
    TheUndeadAmulet
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    Don't 'fix' skills; fix group dungeons.

    Dump one shot mechanics
    Add more damage over time abilities for players to deal with - that require manageable but dedicated healing support.
    Add more curses that require purging - again, boosting the need for a healer with a purge slotted.

    DD's could slot all that stuff but the intent would be that doing so sacrifices too much dps and more groups conclude that the answer is a dedicated healer.

    This. Right here.
    If ESO had good performance then it would easily be one of the best games on the market, maybe even the best. I'm serious ZO$, fix ya game.
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  • idk
    idk
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    troomar wrote: »
    People even start thinking about replacing healers in trials with Circle of Protection and Vigor spam from damage dealers effectively getting more DPS in the process, while tanks would be able to provide sustain for all DPS (casting 1 orb).

    First of all, OP is creating a false narrative suggesting people are looking at replacing healers in trials. I would suggest OP is not experienced in the more challenging content of this game, vet trials, as there is the trinity is very much in place there. It would not increase dps with the buffs healers provide being lost and the additional time required for dps to heal themselves and more. Combat Prayer adds 8% damage to the group.

    I would like to see OP prove me wrong by bringing in a raid leader for a vet trial group looking to do vSS, vCR+3, vS+2 or vHoF HM without a healer.

    Second, it appears OP has a every limited view of healing being they want to force all healers to use an rStaff. I have known players who mained a healer and never lvled up an rstaff. It can be done on a Templar though they do not do the most challenging content like the newer vet trials.

    Third, OP is missing the reason why some dungeon groups can clear the content without a dedicated healer. They are very skilled players and can avoid most of the damage through skilled gameplay. Most groups cannot do that and it certainly cannot be done in the newer vet trials.
    Really, idk
  • Dubhliam
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    I think the way to go is to make all healing skills with hefty costs.
    Ballpark of 30 to 50% increase to current values, especially to Hots and new revised orbs.

    To be an effective healer, it will force you to invest heavily into sustain, while still giving other roles that oh *** skill for emergencies.

    CPs should also be revised in that they should reflect a Choice.
    Nobody should have the option to invest into mitigation, sustain and damage all at the same time.
    Investing CPs should meaningfully nudge you into one direction of your choice: damage, sustain or mitigation.

    By making Restoration staff skills powerful, and all healing skills costly, players won't be able to pass on a healer so easily.
    >>>Detailed Justice System Concept thread<<<
  • idk
    idk
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    Dubhliam wrote: »
    I think the way to go is to make all healing skills with hefty costs.
    Ballpark of 30 to 50% increase to current values, especially to Hots and new revised orbs.

    To be an effective healer, it will force you to invest heavily into sustain, while still giving other roles that oh *** skill for emergencies.

    CPs should also be revised in that they should reflect a Choice.
    Nobody should have the option to invest into mitigation, sustain and damage all at the same time.
    Investing CPs should meaningfully nudge you into one direction of your choice: damage, sustain or mitigation.

    By making Restoration staff skills powerful, and all healing skills costly, players won't be able to pass on a healer so easily.

    First off, the OP is creating a false narrative that groups are considering dropping the healer role in the most challenging content, trials. That is BS.

    Also, most groups need healers to clear vet dungeons, especially DLC. It is the more skilled players can clear the content without a dedicated healer because they are good at avoiding and mitigating damage. These half baked ideas will do little to impact them but do much to harm the average group.

    To quote Code and bring some logical thought to this thread.
    code65536 wrote: »
    The devs need to remember that balancing is two parts, data and "feel". If something doesn't feel good to play, people wont play it. If something doesn't feel necessary, people wont do it. You can have your spreadsheet numbers perfected to the last decimal but if what you're balancing feels wrong, then its still wrong.

    Perfectly said. QFT.


    bol wrote: »
    It is quite simple to save the healer role. Just add a third stat to the game called Healing Power (or something like that) and have all healing spells/skills scale of that and not of spell/weapon damage.
    Of course would need to revise some sets, add some more glyphs, etc... but then you would have a choice to either spec for damage or healing.
    As it is right now the more damage you have, the more healing you have, which is especially broken in PvP and goes against the policy where you should either spec for survivability or damage, but not get one for free with the other.

    No.

    The game needs to cater to a wide variety of playstyles. This thread is about group PvE content, where there is that classic MMO trinity of tank, healer, and damage dealer, and where each role needs to feel unique and useful.

    But this is also a TES game, and solo play is important. Whether we're talking about vMA or running around in Cyrodiil, self-heals are important for that sort of playstyle. While Update 23 did unnecessarily buff a few forms of self-healing, self-healing is not the problem, and should not be adjusted.

    Endgame PvE has traditionally encouraged support roles by amped-up levels of damage that are impractical for non-supports to deal with. vHoF HM execute, for example, has sustained incoming damage to the tune of about 10K/s on each player. The final two damage ticks from Focus Fire on Yolnahkriin HM, which happen at the pace of once per second, are in the ballpark of 12K and 15K, and surviving that final 15K tick requires enough heals hitting 5 players within that 1-second window between the ticks to heal them up from the previous 12K damage tick. To challenge tanks, bosses have attacks whose base damage values are 100K, 150K, or more. This is a level of damage that you don't encounter anywhere else in the game.

    Let me see the OP actually suggest any competent group is considering trying to clear vHoF HM without a healer. It cannot be done even without HM. LOL.
    Really, idk
  • troomar
    troomar
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    idk wrote: »
    Personal attacks and false accusations

    I don't need to prove you anything, man.
    idk wrote: »
    Let me see the OP actually suggest any competent group is considering trying to clear vHoF HM without a healer. It cannot be done even without HM. LOL.

    Let me quote myself:
    There's been a long time problem with DPS effectively replacing healers in both dungeons and trials (to some degree)

    Where do I suggest vHoF HM without healers? Do you know what "to some degree" means? Why are you lying?
  • idk
    idk
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    troomar wrote: »
    I don't need to prove you anything, man.

    No. You do not need to prove anything to anyone but I did demonstrate how you are incorrect and that your thoughts and suggestion fail to consider the big picture of the entire player base.

    I suggest you read what I quoted from a player named Code (scroll up). He posted that in another thread concerning the nerfs to healing. He seems to be much more knowledgeable about the game than most people here.
    troomar wrote: »
    Where do I suggest vHoF HM without healers? Do you know what "to some degree" means? Why are you lying?

    Let me quote you.
    troomar wrote: »
    There's been a long time problem with DPS effectively replacing healers in both dungeons and trials (to some degree).

    You clearly state that healers are being replaced in trials. Of course you are very vague with what you mean here. But unless you are speaking of vet trials across the board then it is an empty and meaningless statement. Unless you are meaning the challenging trials like vHoF then your suggestion is based on a lack of understanding of the game. Again, read what I quoted from Code.

    So no. You have nothing to prove to anyone but your suggestion is gravely flawed.

    Edit: and concerning the dungeons, groups that can clear the vet dungeons, and vet DSA, without a healer do so because they are exceptionally good at avoiding damage. It has nothing to do with heals which is just another area where the idea presented in the OP lacks understanding of what is happening.

    I say that as someone who has been clearing vDSA since 2014 with what is called a 50/50 healer. Something skilled healers do in ESO and ESO is designed for. BTW, healers tank the main boss in vDSA round 10, not the tank while healing both DDs. What do you say about that?
    Edited by idk on July 29, 2019 8:36PM
    Really, idk
  • troomar
    troomar
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    idk wrote: »
    No. You do not need to prove anything to anyone but I did demonstrate how you are incorrect and that your thoughts and suggestion fail to consider the big picture of the entire player base.

    You just stated your opinion in an offensive way, as it seems it's the only way you know. I suggest you being less offensive and avoid insults.

    And again, you're derailing my thread with insults and personal attacks.
    idk wrote: »
    troomar wrote: »
    Where do I suggest vHoF HM without healers? Do you know what "to some degree" means? Why are you lying?

    Let me quote you.
    troomar wrote: »
    There's been a long time problem with DPS effectively replacing healers in both dungeons and trials (to some degree).

    You clearly state that healers are being replaced in trials. Of course you are very vague with what you mean here. But unless you are speaking of vet trials across the board then it is an empty and meaningless statement. Unless you are meaning the challenging trials like vHoF then your suggestion is based on a lack of understanding of the game. Again, read what I quoted from Code.

    So no. You have nothing to prove to anyone but your suggestion is gravely flawed.

    So you were just lying or imagining things. Stop lying please.
  • idk
    idk
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    troomar wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    No. You do not need to prove anything to anyone but I did demonstrate how you are incorrect and that your thoughts and suggestion fail to consider the big picture of the entire player base.

    You just stated your opinion in an offensive way, as it seems it's the only way you know. I suggest you being less offensive and avoid insults.

    And again, you're derailing my thread with insults and personal attacks.
    idk wrote: »
    troomar wrote: »
    Where do I suggest vHoF HM without healers? Do you know what "to some degree" means? Why are you lying?

    Let me quote you.
    troomar wrote: »
    There's been a long time problem with DPS effectively replacing healers in both dungeons and trials (to some degree).

    You clearly state that healers are being replaced in trials. Of course you are very vague with what you mean here. But unless you are speaking of vet trials across the board then it is an empty and meaningless statement. Unless you are meaning the challenging trials like vHoF then your suggestion is based on a lack of understanding of the game. Again, read what I quoted from Code.

    So no. You have nothing to prove to anyone but your suggestion is gravely flawed.

    So you were just lying or imagining things. Stop lying please.

    I merely stated a fact and nothing more. You are making a false statement when you state healers are being replaced to any degree in the challenging trials which is the only way to take your first sentence.

    Now you are calling me a liar because I have pointed out the serious flaws presented in the OP but all you can do is call me a liar and cannot even suggest what I lied about because it is not there.

    Considering the changes already on the PTS your idea makes no sense as it would make healing even more of a challenge than it is on the PTS.

    I seriously doubt you now of any group who is effectively replacing healers with dps in the challenging vet trials. I have mentioned that yet you have not provided anything to suggest otherwise and choose to argue me instead of supporting your information.
    Really, idk
  • idk
    idk
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    If anything it is OP that is derailing their thread by not replying to the points being made and making false accusations of lying.

    Reply to the points being made. What is being strongly questioned in your statement that is the basis of the entire idea.
    Really, idk
  • Delparis
    Delparis
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    This is being ruined up because of vigor over performing

    Zos devs are looking to delete healers from the game
    ZOS don't fix old bugs, they harbor them
  • troomar
    troomar
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    @idk

    A moderator already deleted or edited most of your posts in my previous topic, because you were insulting. You do the same in this one again. Just stop it please.

    And I won't answer any of your questions just because how you behave. Remember it was you who started attacking me and calling me being inexperienced, having limited view of healing, having to prove you something and other things. All of that on false base or simply a lie, because you don't know me, you don't know my group and my achievements. If you are rude and insulting, don't expect other people to react differently.

    You're not in a position to demand anything. Sorry to say it like that.
  • troomar
    troomar
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    Delparis wrote: »
    This is being ruined up because of vigor over performing

    Zos devs are looking to delete healers from the game

    Vigor in PvP, Vigor + Circle of Protection in PvE (stacking effects from DPS). Healers will still be needed for the hardest parts of trials (or in fights with anti-healing mechanics), but the point is that you can replace them for DPS in all the other parts of trials. So you can run 2 tanks + 10 DPS in lets say 80% of the trial and then have just one DPS switching to a healer for the last boss. That's not what healers should be.
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